After watching my DVD a half Dozen times

[Jeff Wrangler]

rtprod,

Just to keep terminology straight, until now, 'tire iron" has meant hate killing, as in "They took a tire iron to him," and "So now he knew it was the tire iron."

The accidental death version as recounted by Lureen, "The tire blew up, broke his jaw..." is the opposing view.

I am a tire ironist myself--by which I mean I believe it was no accident.

John, I'm happy we agree. I've been a tire-ironist since 1997. I always believed Jack was murdered. Once I explained that I felt the structure of the story and and what I called its mythic quality practically demanded that Jack was murdered. Who knows whatever became of that thread?

I expect rt just "miss-typed," that he meant "tire accident."

As for "don't shit where you eat," I think I may even have used those words myself once. Although it almost seems counterintuitive, my feeling has been that Jack was "safer" going to Mexico for hustlers, but when he started "looking for it" closer to home, in Childress, where we know he wasn't much respected to begin with (remember the two old coots in the office who call Jack a pissant right in front of Lureen?), rumors probably started flying, and he ran afoul of the local homophobes.

Gosh, isn't it good to be able to discuss the plot in peace again?

[littleguitar]

This might be strange, but I honestly have never chosen one way or the other, and I don't want to choose.  I like that I don't know.  It's enough for me to know that Ennis thinks it was the tire iron, I like to be just as unsure as he is... Does anyone else feel that way?

[rtprod]

Jeff,

I'm with everyone here.  Of course we don't know "for certain," but it is very strongly suggested--more than strongly--that it was a fatal gay bashing, and to overlook those images and the homophobic thrust of the time and place, combined with Jack's sense of loss in adult life and th apparent recklessness he adopted, makes no sense, at least to me.  An accident has no weight.  True, it's ultimately about love and loss, and Ennis would feel those things regardless of the circumstace.  But the reality of what likely happens adds many dimensions to Ennis' fears, society, etc.

rt

[Jeff Wrangler]

Jeff,

I'm with everyone here.  Of course we don't know "for certain," but it is very strongly suggested--more than strongly--that it was a fatal gay bashing, and to overlook those images and the homophobic thrust of the time and place, combined with Jack's sense of loss in adult life and th apparent recklessness he adopted, makes no sense, at least to me.  An accident has no weight.  True, it's ultimately about love and loss, and Ennis would feel those things regardless of the circumstace.  But the reality of what likely happens adds many dimensions to Ennis' fears, society, etc.

rt

Absolutely, rt! "Hunderd percent!" Right on the money! Although reading littleguitar's post has reminded me of something else I used to say back in the days before the Great Troll Wars: Ultimately, what matters is that Ennis believes it was the tire iron.

Jeff

[serious crayons]

I'm with RouxB and littleguitar, which is to say I'm agnostic. I don't think the mystery has a "real" answer. I think it's meant to remain for the viewer forever ambiguous, because that's how it is for Ennis, and that way we can share his pain of uncertainty, which must be awful. Not knowing the fate of a loved one can often be worse, I've been told by people whose family members went missing, than knowing the worst.

Also, to me the movie focuses less on the threat of society's actual intolerance, real though that is, than it does on the effect that intolerance has on an individual: Ennis. A gay bashing would imply that Ennis's fears of living with Jack were at least somewhat sensible and well-founded. But to me, it's sadder, more subtle and more profound to think that his society- and dad-induced fear and shame (which might inspire a faulty understanding of Jack's death) was the biggest obstacle to his own happiness. However, it's all left open to interpretation -- and you all are right that Jack's Randall fling and well-established openness are strong arguments the other way -- which is another reason I don't think we're supposed to know for sure what happened to Jack.

[Chanterais]

I'm with RouxB and littleguitar, which is to say I'm agnostic.

Such a great line.  As is this one, from Jeff Wrangler:

I've been a tire-ironist since 1997.

I'm pretty sure it had to have been the tire iron, myself.  As others have pointed out, it takes away some of the great, dreadful weight of the story if it had been an accident.  An act of violence is tragedy; an accident is farce.

And I'm in the Ennis'-flashback camp, too.  Do we get our own tents?

[vkm91941]

I just LOVE it that we're talking about the movie again.  Get those DVD's out folks so we can have lots of discussions!

[littleguitar]

LOL you know what's really sad Vic?? I still haven't gotten to watch my DVD.... 

[ednbarby]

I just wrote this over at the IMDb board.  Silly me, still trying to slay the trolls, I know, but the good guys got to discussing this very topic and of course I *had* to jump in.  Here's my $0.02, and then some:

While I love ambiguity in movies for the reason Diana and Jake touched on at the Aero screening (I'm not one of those people who has to have a reason for everything - I think life is random and there often is no reason why horrible things happen, but I agree that's hard for a lot of people to take), it's quite clear to me that Jack was murdered. I really believe that the scene in the bar early on where Jack tries to pick up Jimbo the rodeo clown, then Jimbo goes and says something to his buddies at the pool table about him and they all turn to look at him ominously is intended to be foreshadowing of that murder. That was not in the short story. And the first time I saw the movie, I thought right then, "Oh, no. Jack's gonna get himself into trouble later, isn't he?" When I saw the lamb slaughtered by coyotes later on after they first consummate their passion, I knew it for sure. That also was not in the short story.

In the short story, Ennis imagines Jack's murder while talking with Lureen on the phone, and then later, when he's at the Twist house in Lightning Flat, as soon as John Twist says that bit about "...and then this spring, he's gonna bring some other fella up here, some rancher neighbor a his," the narrative says, "So Ennis knew it was the tire iron."

I also think that if Jack really just died accidentally, the movie is not on the level of a Greek or Shakespearean tragedy like I'm convinced the screenwriters and Ang Lee want it to be. The real tragedy is that the very thing Ennis most feared would happen if they were open about their love happened anyway, or maybe even BECAUSE he was too afraid to be open about it. That's Romeo and Juliet. If it's just an accident, it's Love Story or Brian's Song or (gag) Titanic. And Romeo and Juliet was what they were going for. I absolutely believe that.

[vkm91941]

I agree Barb and would even go so far as to say that Jack's death is almost in someways perceptitate by Ennis, a sort of self fulling prophecy of sorts.  Where if Ennis had not been so homophobic and more open to he and Jack getting a place together or moving up to Lightening Flat...Jack never would have strayed into the arms of some one else or made the  foolish mistakes that ultimately led to his murder just as Ennis imagined.