Author Topic: After watching my DVD a half Dozen times  (Read 25399 times)

Offline monimm18

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • Sr. Ranch Hand
  • *****
  • Posts: 120
Re: After watching my DVD a half Dozen times
« Reply #40 on: April 07, 2006, 01:41:03 am »
Greek tragedy - a literary composition written to be performed by actors in which a central character called a tragic protagonist or hero suffers some serious misfortune which is not accidental and therefore meaningless, but is significant in that the misfortune is logically connected with the hero's actions. Tragedy stresses the vulnerability of human beings whose suffering is brought on by a combination of human and divine actions, but is generally undeserved with regard to its harshness.

OK, how about this? Maybe your interpretation has to do with whether as a viewer you're Enniscentric or Jackcentric.

If Ennis is the tragic hero, then it's HIS tragic flaw -- his refusal to be true to himself and Jack -- that leads to his tragic fate. That is having to endure the love of his life dying (which could be one way or another; the uncertainty only adds to his suffering), and accept the knowledge that he missed his one chance to be happy, that it's largely his own fault -- there's that logical connection with the hero's actions -- and that he will be grieving for the rest of his life (a fate  undeserved with regard to its harshness, if you ask me).

If Jack is the tragic hero, then HIS tragic flaw is his openness and hope and optimism and willingness to take risks. I know, doesn't sound like much of a flaw, but in a society as intolerant as theirs, it becomes one. That interpretation supports the tire-iron conclusion, because it's logically connected to the hero's actions, whereas a roadside accident is not. That his suffering is of undeserved harshness, in that case, goes without saying.


Following the Greek/classical tragedy model, I think Jack's death could not be a mundane accident, no matter if we look at it from an Ennis-centric or a Jack-centric perspective.

Lemme esplain:

I see Ennis as the central character of the story, with Jack just slightly off center. So, from this perspective, I'm gonna try to put it the way I think a 3000 years old tragedy would (I must say I feel literarily arrogant by doing this): Ennis is offered by Fate or Aphrodite, or some other god in a playful mood, Jack, as his soulmate. He falls in love with him, but does not honor his love and the deity by accepting the gift openly, from fear of retaliation from his fellow mortals. So, he puts his fears for himself and his loved one above the fear of offending a divine creature. (Or, in a more contemporary concept he puts Fear above Love.) Angered and offended by his ungratefulness, the deity punishes Ennis by taking the gift away. But, in Greek tragedies, gods are cruelly vindictive creatures, and the punishments they give are always much worse than the offense, and chosen to show the hero the wrongdoing that lead to the punishment. So, the manner in which Jack is taken away has to carry a meaning and a lesson for Ennis - therefore Jack dies in the exact manner that Ennis was trying to avoid by his refusal to accept him openly.  Ennis is left to live with the anguish and the guilt that his own actions led to what he wanted to avoid -  perfect revenge for cruel, irony-loving gods.

If Jack were the tragic hero at the center of the story, then I think his "offense" would be defying society and its rigid order, by failing to hide his true nature. Thus, his punishment would come from society - represented by Killer Mechanic, Grease Monkey, and Assailant...
"Don't be merely satisfied with a better life. We should demand to live in a better world."

Offline Jeff Wrangler

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,165
  • "He somebody you cowboy'd with?"
Re: After watching my DVD a half Dozen times
« Reply #41 on: April 07, 2006, 10:29:08 am »
Damn! Monnim, Barb, these posts are so good, so thoughtful, so interesting! And I just got a rush job I have to concentrate on here at work!

Damn!
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline ednbarby

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,586
Re: After watching my DVD a half Dozen times
« Reply #42 on: April 07, 2006, 12:45:46 pm »
Damn! Monnim, Barb, these posts are so good, so thoughtful, so interesting! And I just got a rush job I have to concentrate on here at work!

Thanks, Jeff.  And Monnim, I like the idea of Ennis being offered a beautiful gift by Fate, squandering that gift, and Fate taking it back.  And again it makes me think that Della is right - exactly *how* Fate took back that gift is immaterial in terms of the level of tragedy we see here.  I also see this, still, as being very much like Argonautica - that the hero (and I definitely see Jack as the hero, here) is killed by the thing that he loves in the end.  Ennis essentially caused Jack's death by not accepting him fully like he should have.  Had he gone with Jack to Lightning Flat, it's at least for certain that Jack would not have been out on the roadside where he was when he ultimately was killed.  And had they built that cabin at John Twist's ranch, we can't be certain that they wouldn't have been the victims of a hate crime up there eventually.  But they would have at least had some happy years.

What strikes me now, and maybe always has, about Ennis' visit to the Twist house is that when John Twist first starts that whole "Jack use ta say, 'Ennis Del Mar, one day he's going come up here and we're gonna whip this ranch into shape...," that's when Ennis *first* realizes how greatly he was loved - Jack was willing to come out to his parents to have him up there with him.  I mean, how huge is that?  We see his astonishment (and pleasure and sadness all at the same time) in that realization.  Then, of course, John goes on to say, "Then this spring, he's gonna bring some other fella up here..."  Now Ennis must have doubted that love.  His finding of the shirts is really what tells him that that first realization was right - even though Jack had tried to move on, it was only Ennis that he loved.

Sorry, bit of a tangent, there.  But that really struck me again in watching it last night.
No more beans!

Offline Jeff Wrangler

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,165
  • "He somebody you cowboy'd with?"
Re: After watching my DVD a half Dozen times
« Reply #43 on: April 07, 2006, 01:29:23 pm »
Reading these posts at lunch, I am mentally and figuratively jumping up and down with excitement over this thread. I wish we could all be together for a round-table discussion about this RIGHT NOW.

There is so much here I'd like to echo and comment on that I can't possibly keep it all in my brain. So Jack is "killed" by Ennis's refusal to build a life with him. That's a powerful and idea--so maybe that look in Jack's eyes as he watches Ennis drive away after their confrontation is, in fact, Jack "dying" before our eyes. Reminds me of Annie Proulx's comment that in her original story, Ennis and Jack's fates are sealed at their reunion in the motel, that Jack's physical death was inevitable from that point on.

I guess I've always seen Ennis as the "hero" here because he's the one who survives, at least physically, and I've also seen him as being redeemed by Jack's death, even if we only see it in a small way, his willing to be there for Alma, Jr., when she needs/wants him, at the end. I guess I should check that "Archive" thread to see whether my old "Allegory" thread was saved.

Of course, this thread has it's own deeper meaning: We are settled in here, the curtains are up, the pictures are on the wall, we've put the Troll Uprising at IMDB behind us, we've moved on, and we have been reinvigorated.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline ednbarby

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,586
Re: After watching my DVD a half Dozen times
« Reply #44 on: April 07, 2006, 02:28:50 pm »
Yes, Jeff.  It's good to be settled in and up for some serious talkin'.  Would you like some Bailey's in your coffee at our round table, or is it still too early where you are?

Like Jake said at the Aero screening, as our lovely world-travelers here who were so lucky to be there reported, Jack really died the moment he knew he couldn't be with Ennis.  To me, Jack dies a little bit every time they say good-bye and/or Ennis disappoints him.  That's what I mean when I say it wasn't until my second viewing that I really "saw" Jack.  What I saw was his heart breaking, a little piece at a time.  First, that whole last day on Brokeback in several instances - after offering Ennis the loan and getting cruelly rebuffed, after finding Ennis sitting alone on the hill, after the sucker punch, when they're riding down, that way he spits so bitterly and Ennis makes careful note of it, then the way he shows Ennis he already has a cigarette when he offers his after Aguirre's brow-beating (that's starting to become my favorite wordless moment - at least for today).  Next, of course the next year when he finds Ennis hasn't been back (and to add insult to injury, that Aguirre knows about them).  Then in the motel, when he says, "What about you?" and only gets a "Me, I... dunno..." - Jack closes his eyes just a little more tightly in pain, as if to hold back tears - another moment that's fastly approaching being my all-time favorite.  Then when he basically proposes to Ennis at the campsite and gets turned down.  Then finds out why Ennis can't do it.  As you can see, I can go on and on.  What Jake does throughout that's so extraordinary, especially considering it wasn't filmed chronologically, is shows us a person from whom a little piece is falling away every time we see him, until at the end, on the lake, what's left in his eyes is nothing but emptiness - it's as if all the life in them has slowly leaked out over time.  The stark contrast between the soulfulness of his eyes watching Ennis ride away in the flashback and the emptiness in them in real time is all the more startling because we've been watching it slowly transpire, as it does in real life, throughout the course of the movie.

You know what - as beautiful as the writing and photography and direction and music and all of it is, it is Heath and Jake themselves, and only they, who made Ennis and Jack so real for me.  I swear they'll be with me all the days of my life just as if they are people I've actually known intimately.  Really, they are.
No more beans!

Offline Jeff Wrangler

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,165
  • "He somebody you cowboy'd with?"
Re: After watching my DVD a half Dozen times
« Reply #45 on: April 07, 2006, 03:35:55 pm »
Barb,

That was all so beautifully put. And so much that I never, in my eight viewings, noticed, like Jake/Jack closing his eyes in the motel! I don't mean to sound flip, but I almost feel I should print out your last post and have it in front of me when I watch the DVD for the first time tonight.

Yes, you are absolutely right, in the end it does come down to Heath and Jake.

As for the Bailey's in the coffee, someone once said, Somewhere the sun is always over the yardarm! :)

Jeff
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline ednbarby

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,586
Re: After watching my DVD a half Dozen times
« Reply #46 on: April 07, 2006, 04:01:55 pm »
Barb,

That was all so beautifully put. And so much that I never, in my eight viewings, noticed, like Jake/Jack closing his eyes in the motel! I don't mean to sound flip, but I almost feel I should print out your last post and have it in front of me when I watch the DVD for the first time tonight.

Yes, you are absolutely right, in the end it does come down to Heath and Jake.

As for the Bailey's in the coffee, someone once said, Somewhere the sun is always over the yardarm! :)

Aw, thanks.   :-*

Here's something else I noticed on my eighth viewing (overall - third one on DVD) last night.  Someone had mentioned a while back on the IMDb board that Jack always wears solid shirts and Ennis always plaid or patterned ones, and that he or she took this to be a symbol of Jack's security in his own sexuality vs. Ennis' lack thereof.  I read that after I'd seen it a few times and watched for it the next and found it was true.  And I continued to think that over the next few screenings.

BUT, last night I'm watching it, and I realize for the first time that when Jack goes back to Aguirre's trailer the next year, HE IS WEARING A PLAID SHIRT.  A mostly solid one, but definitely plaid.  Kind of green and grey and blue.  Over it, he's wearing a solid blood-red sweater and then his coat on top.  It probably sounds looney, but I was *floored*.  How freakin' great is a movie when you can watch it seven times, two in the comfort of your own home and with headphones so as to hear every sound and have no distractions and think you've caught it all, then to find that no, you have not.  Not by a long shot.

Back to the shirt - it makes perfect sense that this would be the one time Jack would feel vulnerable about his sexuality.  Does he sense Aguirre might know?  Or is it just that he's taking a huge risk emotionally and physically in going there essentially hoping to find Ennis again?

It just never ceases to amaze me the careful, exquisite thought that has gone into every article of clothing, every set, every prop.  Man, these people are geniuses.

And as for the sun and the yardarm, in that case, how about a martini?  Or will you stick with the whiskey?
No more beans!

Offline Jeff Wrangler

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,165
  • "He somebody you cowboy'd with?"
Re: After watching my DVD a half Dozen times
« Reply #47 on: April 07, 2006, 04:10:06 pm »
Well, it really was beautifully put.

Headphones! Damn! Why didn't I think of that! What a great idea!

Thanks, I'll stick with whiskey (scotch, to be precise).  :)
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline ednbarby

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,586
Re: After watching my DVD a half Dozen times
« Reply #48 on: April 07, 2006, 04:16:02 pm »
Well, it really was beautifully put.

Headphones! Damn! Why didn't I think of that! What a great idea!

Thanks, I'll stick with whiskey (scotch, to be precise).  :)

Ah.  An acquired taste I've never acquired.  Vodka is my poison.  I like Absolut best, but in a pinch, Smirnoff works just as effectively.  I like an Absolut martini straight up with a twist.  Or a Twist.  Now *that* would be one hell of a drink.

Enjoy it tonight.  Richly.  Of course no one needs to tell you that.

I'll leave you with my favorite Dorothy Parker quote:

I like a good martini - one or two at most.
After three, I'm under the table
After four, I'm under my host.
No more beans!

Offline henrypie

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • Brokeback Got Me Good
  • *****
  • Posts: 469
Re: After watching my DVD a half Dozen times
« Reply #49 on: April 07, 2006, 05:20:00 pm »
Barb,
Will you marry me?

Jeff, will you be my best man?

After Dorothy Parker, and re a comment you made above, it seems right to quote Cole Porter:

"Every time we say goodbye
I die a little..."

My drink: Gin.  Oh baby, gin in the garden in spring.  It's because of experiences of youth that my heart goes pitapat with gin in the garden in spring.  But so be it.  It's gettin to be gin (and tonic) time again.