After watching my DVD a half Dozen times

[Jeff Wrangler]

Thread's gotten kinda long to review, so I apologize in advance for not giving proper credit where due on Friday's posts on the subject of whether Ennis or Jack is the real tragic figure/tragic hero, in the "classical" sense. In the wake of my first home viewing Friday night, I'm now seeing Jack as more tragic than I did before, and not just because he's the one who dies.

In the privacy of my living room Friday night, it was really borne into me that it is Jack who says, in the motel room, that ol' Brokeback got them good, it is Jack who sought out Ennis after four years, and it is Jack, in the final confrontation, who says that all they have is Brokeback Mountain, everything built on that. Then it struck me how it is Jack who "never grew up," never got past that summer on Brokeback.

I've always been impressed by Ennis's willingness to accept his adult responsibilities--his wife and children--despite his feelings for Jack, whereas Jack is the one who wants to run off and set up that little cow and calf operation, turning his back on his wife and child. Considering the changing nature of the economy in the West, that cow and calf operation probably wouldn't have succeeded anyway. Poor Jack. All he wanted was to play cowboy with Ennis. I gotta love him for that, but, in the end, it's kind of ... childish. I guess for me, that's how I understand Jack's flaw now. He's the boy who wouldn't grow up.

And that's not too uncommon in my fellow gay men.

[delalluvia]

I've always been impressed by Ennis's willingness to accept his adult responsibilities--his wife and children--despite his feelings for Jack, whereas Jack is the one who wants to run off and set up that little cow and calf operation, turning his back on his wife and child. Considering the changing nature of the economy in the West, that cow and calf operation probably wouldn't have succeeded anyway. Poor Jack. All he wanted was to play cowboy with Ennis. I gotta love him for that, but, in the end, it's kind of ... childish. I guess for me, that's how I understand Jack's flaw now. He's the boy who wouldn't grow up.

And that's not too uncommon in my fellow gay men.

It's not too uncommon for ANY man, gay or straight.  I think you're being too harsh on Jack.  After all, Ennis accepted his adult responsibilities alright - in between quitting his jobs left and right so he could be with Jack.  Jack not only accepted his adult responsibilities, he took on - from what is implied - the bulk of the childcare.  The same of which cannot be said for Ennis.

Truth is, we don't know what kept Ennis to his 'family responsibilities'.  Fear does a good job of keeping someone toeing the line, so does guilt and so does repression.  It's to be respected that he stayed with his family, but hardly applauded as to the reasons why.

Ennis accepted his adult responsibilites - but only grudgingly.  It is implied in the movie and said outright in the short story that Ennis never does anything with his family.  He never goes out with his wife or takes the family on vacation.  He mopes around his apartment like a teen-ager in love in his parents home, bereft of his true love, the only one who understands him.

Jack and Lureen, on the other hand, do have a social life.  Seems they go out quite a bit.  Jack can't be with the one he loves, so he makes do, with prostitutes, with affairs, but in the meantime, he and the wife go out, he travels, takes primary care of Bobby.

Seems Jack is the more mature one, while Ennis is the one who can't quite let go of that first summer.  IMO.

And also, just because Jack was willing to give up Lureen doesn't mean he would have given up all rights to Bobby.  I think we can all agree that Jack loved his son.  The man was willing to travel thousands of miles at the drop of a hat for someone he loved - Ennis.  Why not for Bobby - on parental visits?

[ednbarby]

I'm completely with Dela on this one.  If anyone, it's Ennis who wouldn't grow up.  As I've said before, I think Jack was always a man, even when he was a boy.  He was always comfortable in his own skin and he was never satisfied with just accepting things the way they are.  He was the opposite of Ennis - his approach to life was that if you can't stand it, you gotta fix it.  It repeats itself over and over throughout the movie:

- Kicking the truck when he parks it at Aguirre's

- Glaring at Aguirre when he realizes he's punishing him for the high predator/weather loss that happened under his watch the previous summer

- Perhaps my favorite line in the whole movie because it so captures Jack's essence, "No more beans!"

- When he says to Ennis, "We got to do something about this food situation.  Maybe we oughtta shoot one a the sheep..." and then when Ennis says something to the effect of "We're just gonna have to make due with what we have, he says, "Well, I won't." (Another one that really captures his essence, IMO).

- The sheer rocks he has to go back to Aguirre's office the next summer looking for Ennis

- His conscious decision to woo Lureen for her money because he figures if he can't have what he wants and needs spiritually, at least he can better his life financially

I could go on and on, but I'll end it with the one I've said before that absolutely defines Jack:  "Tell ya what, I know where Brokeback Mountain is.  Jack thought he was too goddamned special to be buried in the family plot."  It's not what Jack thought - it's just the truth.

And Jack's speech about Brokeback Mountain being all they got - fucking all, BOY - is his telling Ennis that it's he who has never grown up, never been able to accept who he is and what he's got, and that because of that, that's the furthest they ever got.

[Flashframe777]

I am firmly back in the Jack was murdered camp.   The "flash-back" of what happens seems to be more Lureen's to me than Ennis's.  And that little cry/moan she makes when she realizes who Ennis is, is her realization that Jack had the same relationship with Ennis that he was having with Randall. As Annie says in her story...the little voice is as cold as snow.

You know that old addage you don't shit wear you eat, will I've come to the conclusion that Jack did indeed take up with Randall and he was telling the truth when he told Ennis he almost got caught a coupla times sneaking out to be with the "wife"(when actually he was sneaking out to be with Randall)....that time he did get caught and it cost him his life..

I may change my mind after another half dozen viewing but this is where I'm sitting rightnow  pretty strong in that conviction.

WELCOME BACK HOME!

[serious crayons]

If anyone, it's Ennis who wouldn't grow up. ... And Jack's speech about Brokeback Mountain being all they got - fucking all, BOY - is his telling Ennis that it's he who has never grown up, never been able to accept who he is and what he's got, and that because of that, that's the furthest they ever got.

Then perhaps the movie could be seen as the story of Ennis growing up and becoming a man. Unfortunately, too late.

[Jeff Wrangler]

Del and Barb,

Gotta love both of you! You both always explain your cases so well and persuasively! I'm not, however, persuaded in this case. Nor do I love Jack the less. It just hurts all the more, now I see him in this light.

I think it's possible that what we have here might be a failure to agree on what it means to grow up and what it means to be a man. It might also be the old and perhaps irreconcilable conflict: what one person sees as being true to one's self, another person sees as being selfish. Perhaps it comes down to what has been said often about this story. Ennis and Jack were in an impossible position. There were no winners, and in the end everybody got hurt--Alma and Lureen as well as Ennis and Jack.

Granted, Ennis was a lousy husband. For that matter, I've never really understood why Jack stuck it out with him for that long. Wouldn't it have been more "grown up" of Jack to quit Ennis long before that final confrontation?

I'll grant the point that Jack does seem more willing to try to fix things than to stand them, but look at his suggested fix to the food situation: killing and eating one of the sheep they were getting paid to guard. I have to take my stand with Ennis on that one. Let's also not forget the first part of Ennis's famous phrase, "If you can't fix it." That doesn't mean, "don't try." We don't know whose idea it was to try hunting (maybe it was Ennis's?), we only know that Jack was a bad marksman and Ennis finally resolved the situation by shooting the elk.

(OT but I've always felt Jake was badly directed--yes, I said badly directed!--in the scene where Jack tries and fails to shoot the coyote. He isn't even trying to aim that rifle properly.)

I think the evidence is slim to call Jack his son's primary care giver, but that might also hinge on how the term is defined, though without doubt he does show admirable concern for his son's well-being. (Let's also not forget Ennis's concern that his little girls are being exposed to those slopbucket bikers, he suggests treating them to ice cream, and he promises to take them to the church picnic.)

We don't know whose idea it was to go to that charity dinner dance, but I wouldn't be surprised if Lureen dragged Jack there, more out of concern for social position in the community than from any desire for a social life. To me he doesn't look too happy about being there.

And running off to a hustler in Mexico just because he can't get laid by Ennis is the act of a spoiled, selfish brat. (Yes, I'm being very harsh here.) Running up to Wyoming unannounced just because he got word that Ennis's divorce had been finalized is not a very adult course of action. I feel for Jack that his sexual needs are apparently stronger than Ennis's, but I'm not therefore excusing his behavior in running off to Juarez.

I hate--I really do hate!--to disagree so substantially with both of you, but I'm afraid I have to. In my world view, Ennis is much the more adult of the two.

[ednbarby]

Well, disagree we do, my dear Jeff.  I don't love you any less for it.  But "a spoiled, selfish brat???"  I don't see it that way at all.  Jack craves a physical connection with other men.  He wants it above all with Ennis.  But repeatedly, Ennis can't or won't give it to him as often as he needs it.  Really, in all his years with Ennis, the time he picks up the hustler in Mexico is the first time (in the movie, anyway) that there is any evidence of him cheating on him.  And then, he's driven 14 hours, filled with anticipation and excitement that he may finally be able to start building a life with Ennis, only to be bitterly disappointed.

If anyone is selfish here, it is Ennis.  Jack is willing to divorce his wife the second after they reunite.  He realizes his marriage is a sham and he'd gladly get out - I suspect even if L.D. wasn't going to pay him off to do it and he'd have to go back to being a poor ranch hand.  And that would be the right thing to do.  It's Ennis who's not willing to divorce Alma right then and there even though he knows he doesn't love her, so he chooses to (attempt to) deceive her for years out of nothing other than fear of change and of people knowing the reason why if he left her.

And even after they divorce, he still can't get past his fear enough to make a go of it with Jack.

Don't get me wrong - I love Ennis.  My heart aches for him.  I want to rock him in my arms like a baby.  But Jack is special.  Jack is a revolutionary.  He lives and loves way beyond his time.  Look at how he defends Lureen at the Thanksgiving dinner.  That isn't just about finally letting L.D. know what he thinks of him - it's about being a united force with his wife in the disciplining of his son.  That's how it starts.  Even her mother smiles at him because she recognizes he's standing up for her when she tells Bobby to turn off the T.V. and eat.  That's what a man does.  If she were to ever confront him about his sexuality, the last thing he would do is hit her.  And it's the first thing Ennis goes to do when Alma confronts him about his.  That's not what a man does.

To me, Ennis starts out being a man in the beginning and devolves into a boy by the end.  Jack starts out being a boy and evolves into a man.

[Jeff Wrangler]

Sorry, but I can't buy the idea that Ennis devolves from a man to a boy while Jack grows up. Ennis doesn't change for 20 years--until he suffers the shock of losing Jack. After shutting out Alma, Jr., when she asks to come live with him, blaming his work, he does it again when she asks him to come to her wedding, again blaming his work. And then he does an about-face and agrees to come to the wedding. That's a sign of growth, not devolution. Maybe it's not a very big sign of growth, but I believe it is a sign of growth.

Ennis's reaction to any stressful situation is violence, from having to come down off the mountain to being outed by Alma (whom he grabs by the wrist and threatens to hit but does not hit). In my world that's not how a man behaves, but my world isn't Ennis's world, and his world isn't mine. Look at how he was raised, and when and where. Look at his father showing him the dead rancher. This is a cultural thing--a deplorable cultural thing, yes, but a cultural thing. In Ennis's world, a man is someone who can hit you harder and come out on top. (Even in my world, I have known people who do not respect you unless you can yell louder and hit harder than they can.)

And how did I get here from referencing Friday's post about classical tragedy and deciding for myself that Jack is more the classical tragic here than Ennis? 

Of course Jack is special. That's why it hurts so much today. I've come to understand his fatal flaw, and it's just like when you learn someone you love very much has feet of clay.

But that look on his face in the truck, driving away from Ennis's and after he wipes away the tear, reminds me of a child I once saw just before she threw a tantrum. I half expect Jack to stamp his foot because he didn't get his own way--Ennis did the responsible, adult thing, stayed with his daughters instead of dumping them to run off and screw Jack.

[ednbarby]

But that look on his face in the truck, driving away from Ennis's and after he wipes away the tear, reminds me of a child I once saw just before she threw a tantrum. I half expect Jack to stamp his foot because he didn't get his own way--Ennis did the responsible, adult thing, stayed with his daughters instead of dumping them to run off and screw Jack.

--------------------------------------

See, I disagree here.  I look at the way Jack wipes the tear as being his just not wanting to cry, and being angry with himself for feeling like it.  And Ennis' sending him away is not about being responsible to the girls.  He could have said, "Listen, I have the girls this weekend and I haven't seen them for a month.  I want to be with you, but I just can't right now."  The gist of that scene wasn't that he couldn't be with him then just because the girls were there, but that he couldn't be with him openly in general.

You're right, though - Ennis does grow a little at the end when he agrees to go to Alma Jr.'s wedding (and I love how her face opens up like a flower with pleasure when he says he will), but that's only *after* he's realized all he's lost by living his life in fear.

Saying he devolves is inaccurate - you're right again - he really doesn't change much in 20 years, whereas to me, Jack does.

And I do understand where you're coming from about Jack having a fatal flaw.  But to me, his flaw is that he loves Ennis too greatly for his own good.  I don't see optimism as a flaw.  And that's what I think he is - an optimist.  Not a Peter Pan wannabe who doesn't want/isn't able to grow up, but someone who is always trying to make his life better.  He stays with Lureen because he realizes he can never have Ennis the way he wants, and if he can't have him, why divorce her and leave his child and all they have to just be miserable, poor, and alone?  Whereas Ennis stays with Alma as long as he does out of nothing more than fear.

What it boils down to for me is that Ennis is the one who made the more serious (and selfish) mistakes.  We'll just have to agree to disagree on that one, I reckon. 

[serious crayons]

what one person sees as being true to one's self, another person sees as being selfish. Perhaps it comes down to what has been said often about this story. Ennis and Jack were in an impossible position. There were no winners, and in the end everybody got hurt--Alma and Lureen as well as Ennis and Jack.

Well put, Jeff. They were both reacting to an impossible situation in different ways. Both made some mistakes, but were doing what they thought best.

Setting aside the classic hero paradigm for a moment, if you think of one of the movie's themes as being, "here's what happens when a society won't tolerate a particular way to love," then Ennis and Jack are examples of two different kinds of damage that results from that injustice. One of them accepts the system as it is and as a result spends his life hiding, coping with shame and fear, denying himself and the person he cares most about the very thing they want more than anything. The other one tries to defy the system -- and here is one of the most convincing arguments I've seen yet for the crowbar interpretation -- and gets killed for it.

Once again, I think Ennis often gets criticized too harshly. Sure, he bears responsibility for a decision that went horribly wrong. But he was acting in good faith under the circumstances as he interpreted them, based on a traumatic childhood incident and what he'd been taught to believe. And, if the crowbar folks are right, looks like he sized things up pretty accurately. Only Ennis didn't realize that being careful himself wasn't enough. You see how mad he got at the idea of Jack being unfaithful to him in Mexico; he could hardly have known Jack was going to start seeing a man in Texas regularly enough to be at risk. Meanwhile, he chuckled when Jack confessed he was seeing a ranch foreman's wife and would probably get shot by Lureen or the husband or both (yet another a foreshadowing that could be seen as a crowbar argument). He didn't take that seriously. What if Jack had confessed that he was actually seeing a man in Texas? Ennis would have been not only jealous but also terrified for Jack.

As for who was more or less mature regarding their wives and kids and all that, I think neither were heroes nor villains. They both got married because they thought that was the appropriate thing to do -- again, according to the dictates of their culture. They both tried to do right by their kids. In fact, I've always found that a flaw in the post-divorce scene -- Ennis actually did the RIGHT THING by spending time with his daughters. Yes, he could have explained it better to Jack (who, after all, should not have driven all that way without notice). Yes, obviously he was paranoid about the white truck. But if this is supposed to be an instance of Ennis letting Jack down unfairly, Ennis should have had a lamer excuse. Had he ditched the daughters for the second month in a row in order to go off with Jack, I would criticize him for that myself.