Author Topic: Same-Sex Marriage Issue in MA  (Read 11953 times)

Offline Lynne

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Same-Sex Marriage Issue in MA
« on: April 08, 2006, 12:04:14 am »
Hello everyone...

I've been holding off on posting this for about a week, so in a way, it's old(er) news; we've had so much new activity here :-) (which is inspiring and wonderful!).  But I'm coming back to it now.

I'm interested in your thoughts about the same-sex marriage issue - perhaps, not so much from the political perspective, as much as what it might mean to you, personally.

The following link is to the Boston Globe's special report about this issue:

http://www.boston.com/news/specials/gay_marriage/

Did Brokeback Mountain influence your ideas about same-sex marriage in any way?

A few days ago, the MA Supreme Judicial Court used a 1913 law to deny marriage licenses in the state to same-sex couples who reside in states which have laws that specifically prohibit same-sex marriage.

Does the MA court ruling affect anyone in particular?

In advance, I appreciate your thoughtful and candid ideas.

-Lynne
"Laß sein. Laß sein."

Offline Impish

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Re: Same-Sex Marriage Issue in MA
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2006, 07:31:36 pm »
I have had the following conversation serveral times (reduced to its essence here):

Them: "Are you married?"
Me: "No, that would be illegal; I'm not allowed to marry."
Them: "What in the world do you mean?"
Me:  "In our society, gay people are not allowed to marry."

Even though everyone knows this issue is in the news, people are neverthelss shocked by these sentences, saying that they never thought about the issue in just that way. 

I think BBM -- the movie, that is -- addressed gay marriage directly at the end when Alma, Jr. visits Ennis to announce her engagement.  She's 19, the same age Ennis and Jack were when they met.  He tells her "well, you're 19 now, so you can do whatever you like, I guess" (paraphrasing).  When he learns of her engagement, the sadness that comes over him at first, IMHO,  is him thinking "I wish I could have married Jack when I was 19" and "how easy it is for others to marry the one they love."

Then he gets beyond that sadness -- or is at least able to set it aside for the moment -- and realizes how happy he is that his daughter won't  have the same problem. 

I also think that the marriage issue is one of the things that scares the extreme right so much:  BBM finally gets through to the mass audience that being gay is not so much about who you go to bed with as much as it is about who you love.  That simple idea shatters so many myths about gayness, and they don't want people to learn the truth.



« Last Edit: April 13, 2006, 09:46:44 am by Impish »
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Offline Lynne

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Re: Same-Sex Marriage Issue in MA
« Reply #2 on: April 12, 2006, 10:36:59 pm »
Them: "Are you married?"
Me: "No, that would be illegal; I'm not allowed to marry."
Them: "What in the world do you mean?"
Me:  "In our society, gay people are not allowed to marry."

You have a real gift for getting to the heart of the matter.  Thank you for posting that.

It works so well because it takes an abstract idea and makes it personal.  People being able to relate to Jack and Ennis should rightly scare those on the other side of the debate...It's easy to make theoretical arguments, but when you see gay people as people first, the character of the debate has to shift.

I think your understanding of the final Ennis/Alma, Jr. scene is right on target.  I also had a glimmer that Ennis hopes Curt has a deeper understanding of himself than Ennis did at age 19 so Curt doesn't hurt Alma, Jr. the same way Ennis hurt and disappointed Alma.  I interpret Alma, Jr.'s reassurance ('he loves me') as addressing this.
"Laß sein. Laß sein."

Offline Impish

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Re: Same-Sex Marriage Issue in MA
« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2006, 10:37:11 am »
I also had a glimmer that Ennis hopes Curt has a deeper understanding of himself than Ennis did at age 19 so Curt doesn't hurt Alma, Jr. the same way Ennis hurt and disappointed Alma.

Yeah, I hear you.  Ennis did love Alma (Sr.) in every way that was possible for him.  He was very aware that he and Jack were not the only ones hurt by his inability to live and love honestly.  This inability was in large part due to society, of course:  Ennis was not allowed to marry the person he loved most.  Still, part of it was also within Ennis.... after all, Jack wanted to live and love "honestly" as much as was possible in their day.

I've said elsewhere that marrying Alma was, in a sense,  committing adultery against Jack.  When I say that, however, I mean that marrying Alma was as hurtful to her as it was to Ennis or Jack:  it caused Alma more hurt in the long run than calling off the wedding would have in the short term.

Now, after 40-plus years after Ennis married Alma, gay people are still forbidden to marry, and there are still many who  marry people of the opposite sex  to satisfy society's demands and their own internalized homophobia.  Such gay people are bound for a life of regrets, and  their straight spouses are also in for a world of hurt, just like Alma was. 

Nobody wins by denying any minority the right to marry the person s/he loves.  How ironic that  the groups against marriage equality claim they're "defending" marriage, when their laws and amendments will create more  bogus marriages, not fewer! 

They just can't see that false marriages hurt straight people too.

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Offline Aussie Chris

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Re: Same-Sex Marriage Issue in MA
« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2006, 06:23:05 am »
Them: "Are you married?"
Me: "No, that would be illegal; I'm not allowed to marry."

Hey there Bill, long time, no talk.  I'm so glad you posted this.  It's only recently that I've been thinking the same thing - another BBM induced catharsis I presume.  In fact I just about knocked my best friend over by admitting that I would like to get married - the first time I've ever said that.  I don't know if it's the idea of getting married or simply that I want to be allowed to if I was lucky enough to meet someone that I felt that way about.  I haven't completely come to grips with this new realisation, but I know that I see us all as being equally deserving of being in love and able to share that love with friends and family.  Oh, but what a burden this feels like.  No longer can I sit back and accept the label of "minority group" or "alternative lifestyle".  I don't even like "gay community" anymore, there's only one community and we're all a part of it...

IIIII... think I'll make myself a cup of tea, feeling a little agitated at the moment.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2006, 04:28:18 am by Aussie Chris »
Nothing is as common as the wish to be remarkable - William Shakespeare

Offline Impish

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Re: Same-Sex Marriage Issue in MA
« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2006, 09:41:44 am »
I don't know if it's the idea of getting married or simply that I want to be allowed to if I was lucky enough to meet someone that I felt that way about.

Right!  If laws were passed tomorrow that allowed me to marry, I wouldn't be ready to as I'm not in a relationship right now.  For those who are in a committed same-sex relationship, some would choose to marry and some would not....  in other words, we'd have the same options heterosexuals do.



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Offline Lynne

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Re: Same-Sex Marriage Issue in MA
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2006, 04:28:20 am »
Bill, Chris...

Thank you guys for posting on this topic.  I have a confession to make [hiding head in shame], but I've been so quiet lately because i have been CHEATING...just sew a scarlet 'A' on me now!

In my search for relevant Movie Resources info, I made my way over to www.davecullen.com/forums and there is just a wealth of thoughtful posts on many subjects of relevance.  As usual with a forum of that size, there's a lot of nonsense to wade through, but there are also many considered folk with practical life experience contributing to the discussions.  The two topics that really grabbed my interest there were related to the gay marriage issue and the general idea of defining homophobia - how to keep the discussion constructive without language that is inherently divisive.  If you're not over there yet, I would recommend the occasional visit.  [Phillip smites me now ;-0]  Dave Cullen, some moderators, and several active posters have ideas that have certainly helped to broaden my own understanding.  There's some discussion of civil unions vs. marriage and whether the movement pushed for too much/too soon with calling it 'marriage'.

I heard elsewhere that the majority of Americans think homosexuals SHOULD have equal rights/protections as heterosexuals which is a 180-degree reversal from 20 years ago.  I don't have specific details, but the source was an audiobook by Jimmy Carter, which I've been listening to on my commute.  His latest non-fiction book is about the U.S. losing it's moral center.  He talks a lot about the hijacking of the Republican party by the religious right who have furthered their cause by focusing on the most divisive social issues to the exclusion of issues that he feels should be forefront in the political debate.  This is juxtaposed with his split from the Southern Baptist Convention and aligned with his evangelical Christian beliefs.  I've always felt an affinity with him.  As a 9 year old, I made my Dad change the channel so I could watch the debates/coverage of the 1976 elections...

And, Bill...my copy of Covering should be on its way from amazon.

-Lynne
"Laß sein. Laß sein."

Offline Aussie Chris

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Re: Same-Sex Marriage Issue in MA
« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2006, 06:41:33 am »
Thank you guys for posting on this topic.  I have a confession to make [hiding head in shame], but I've been so quiet lately because i have been CHEATING...just sew a scarlet 'A' on me now!

Aawww... well ok then.  As long as you don't abandon us entirely?  I'd love to have enough time to traverse the two sites, but egads I already spend so many hours here!!! ;)

As far as civil union versus marriage question, I don't care what it's called as long as it has the same legal and social significance as "marriage".  In my mind, the easiest way that happens is to simply call it marriage and be done with it.  But of course "easiest" doesn't always mean "fastest".
Nothing is as common as the wish to be remarkable - William Shakespeare

Offline Impish

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Re: Same-Sex Marriage Issue in MA
« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2006, 11:22:43 am »
I just now had the conversation I described above when someone from the gas company came to check why my gas meter is acting so funny.

He said, "Wow, your wife certainly keeps a clean house!" obviously testing me.
I said "I'm a gay man and  I'm not allowed to marry."

He took it in stride, just "Oh" and changed the subject, and he remained friendly and cheerful.

I hope he'll repeat our conversation to his wife or co-workers...  even if as the butt of a joke.  It will at least make people aware that the issue is affecting individual lives.

As for the "civil union" or "marriage" debate, I find that those in the straight community supporting "civil unions" rather than "marriage" don't really want us to have the all the same legal rights and privileges that marriage would provide us.  I worry that some in the gay community don't realize that. 

So I'm with Chris on this:  if I were sure that civil unions were legally identical to marriages,   I wouldn't care what they call it.  But I'm convinced that there's a reason behind wanting to rename our relationships, so that the government would not have to treat them identically.   :(
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Offline Impish

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Re: Same-Sex Marriage Issue in MA
« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2006, 08:05:41 pm »
And, Bill...my copy of Covering should be on its way from amazon.

-Lynne

Cool!  Let me know what you think...
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If you won't pray in my school, I won't think in your church.