Author Topic: Our Boys Crying..  (Read 8371 times)

Offline Kea

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Our Boys Crying..
« on: April 08, 2006, 01:36:42 am »
Hi

Ok...I am going to try to start a new topic here.....help out a bit with Nancy being away......

Here is my question.....it came up in another discussion board... ...that some stories ( fan fic) especially show Jack as weaker ...crying ...etc.....and even Ennis crying and breaking down more...

this person  felt that this would not happen with our real Jack and Ennis......it raises an interesting question for me..


Were they really more in touch with their feelings than we know..??? 

or did they repress them?  ???

Do you think they showed more in private where we would not see them?? ???



Also.....this question came up.......about men crying.....

Do you think men cry as easily as we women do?   or No, they push it down deep  ? ???


Is sensitivity a gender trait? ???

How have you felt seeing a man cry?. ???

Who was more sensitive ..Jack or Ennis??

To quote a buddy of mine...( a sweet guy)  Real men cry....

whatca think??

hugs
Kea
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Offline twistedude

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Re: Our Boys Crying..
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2006, 01:58:49 am »
We do see each of them cry..Jack once; Ennis twice, no, three time, nio FOUR times (in the kneeling clinch) (jn the alleyway as well) (twice at the end--in Jack's room, at at the very end)--.  I think it is ingrained in both of these men, and probably still in most men today, that they do not SHOW their feelings by crying.  I don't think that it ingrained in them not to HAVE such feelings, only that they do not make a public exhibition of them.  Country guys don't cry; life is too short, there isn't enough time, people can't be biothered with them cxrying--so they don't.

An interesting question, to me, concerns gay guys in general.  I've found, berneath the sensitive exterior, sometimes and ENORMOUS sophistiocation, that so far exeeds my own, that I'm afraid to express "womanish" feelings around them, "soppyness."  But gay guys, especially city ones, cry easily--at movies, at any rate!  Reading books...but i sometimes have the sense that they can't be bothered with emotions that they had, 100 years ago---

Anyway, I came here to read your poems...
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Offline Lynne

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Re: Our Boys Crying..
« Reply #2 on: April 12, 2006, 11:09:12 pm »
Thanks for the new topic, Kea...I should have replied before now, but I've been dwelling on it privately...even in the shower today!

What is it about this movie that continually resurrects 'stuff' in us that we had no idea was stewing around?!?

Your thread here put me into some serious contemplation and I didn't want to post prematurely before I had thought things through as much as possible.  I keep coming back to the same point, so maybe you can help unstick me?  I'm afraid I'm going to sound unsympathetic or hard or cold or something...

First, let me address the idea of our boys crying...We see them moved to tears but it is very subtle.  For Ennis the tears are in his eyes (along with the hurt) and though Jack may be crying on his way to Mexico, even sensitive Jack forces them back and presses the accelerator on his journey (redlining again?).  I don't think anyone who says Jack is 'weaker' than Ennis has any valid arguments.  Jack was more in touch with his needs than Ennis, but it would take someone with a great strength of character to maintain any sort of relationship for 20 years, particularly when you consider how the frustrations and disappointments had to pile on him.  I wouldn't say that one is more sensitive than the other - they just coped differently.

That said, I think it's entirely conceivable that in the fan fiction world that Jack and Ennis were more expressive with each other privately.

So I was reviewing the men I know and under what circumstances I have seen them cry, which is what brought me to all the introspection.  In ALL cases except one, the tears were not motivated by genuine hurt; rather, they were manipulative, born of frustration or anger, but in general inappropriate.

That does sound hard, doesn't it?  Who am I to judge?  Let me rephrase slightly - I felt manipulated in these situations; that the tears were there to further some agenda, to generate a response in me, but not genuine.

So my own experience leads me to believe that sensitivity is more of a learned behavior and less a predisposition of one gender or another.
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Offline ednbarby

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Re: Our Boys Crying..
« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2006, 11:25:58 pm »
In general, I've always believed that men actually feel things more deeply than women because we women are so much freer to let our emotions show.  When we girls get our hearts broken, we call all our pals and sit around and have a great big weep and eat fest.  With men, it's all false bravado until they find themselves alone with their feelings and don't know what to do with them.  I look at Jack finding himself crying in his truck that way - he's overwhelmed with emotion, and yet pissed off to realize he is.  Hence the almost petulant way he wipes away his tears.
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Offline twistedude

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Re: Our Boys Crying..
« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2006, 05:31:19 pm »
Bob cries freely and openly when something moves him to cry...so there.

Although Jack cries real tears once, on the way to-- Mexico, eventually,  there are several times when he might have cried..and instead, conforts Ennis ( the cheek caress; the kneeling clinch).
"We're each of us alone, to be sure. What can you do but hold your hand out in the dark?" --"Nine Lives," by Ursula K. Le Guin, from The Wind's Twelve Quarters

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Our Boys Crying..
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2006, 12:41:48 pm »
Funny, I was just thinking about this issue earlier, before I came across this thread. And I did a tally.

Jack cries once:
-- after the post-divorce scene.

Ennis actually cries SIX times:
-- in the alley
-- at his divorce
-- in the final lake scene
-- in the phone booth
-- in Jack's childhood room
-- in the "I swear" scene

Other thoughts:

I don't associate crying with weakness. If anything, in moderation it seems like a strength. That said, I am always really touched by guys with tough exteriors crying. I'm not sure why it gets to me so much. I suppose because I like to know that tough guys can be vulnerable and sensitive, too.

I don't like it when anyone (man or woman) cries all the time, or in a manipulative way, or in a self-pitying way. But I wouldn't apply those descriptions to any of the crying in this movie.

I think Ennis cries more than Jack because he is more vulnerable and a sadder person in general. In the alley scene, I think he is more devastated by the parting than Jack -- perhaps because he thinks he just said goodbye forever to the love of his life, whereas Jack is more optimistic, either about seeing Ennis again or finding someone else. In general, Jack is more cheerful and able to shrug things off more easily. Also, three of the times Ennis cries occur after Jack's death, so of course he has more opportunity.



Offline jpwagoneer1964

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Re: Our Boys Crying..
« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2006, 06:23:48 pm »
If you look I believe Jack also cries after he is knocked down by Ennises punch. He is close when "tell you what....truth is.....sometimes I miss you much I can hardly stand it". And their final scene when he goes to Ennis "let me be...
Thank you Heath and Jake for showing us Ennis and Jack,  teaching us how much they loved one another.

Offline JCinNYC2006

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Re: Our Boys Crying..
« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2006, 06:38:53 pm »
Kea, I like your questions.  I hate crying, I have the usual male perspective of feeling like it makes me look weak.  It's more like what the crying is expressing that is difficult for me.  So when the movie came out, I kinda knew it would be carthartic in that it would allow me to cry for a bit.  And even then, it was only afterwards at my friend's apartment and a glass of wine that I let myself bawl.  He was kind of taken aback by it.

I envy women the ability to be more expressive with their emotions.  I know the idea is that gay men are often more in touch with their feelings, but I don't always find that to be so.  In fact I think we have sort of developed a different way of defending against them (cynical or bitchy humor, etc.)  Not always of course, but in my closest relationships I don't often experience my gay male friends crying, whereas a lot of my female friends cry much more easily.

Juan
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Offline David

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Re: Our Boys Crying..
« Reply #8 on: June 08, 2006, 07:09:42 pm »
I agree with Juan.   I find it difficult to cry in front of people.    But if I'm alone watching a movie....look out!   I'm as weepy as a schoolgirl.


Oh, and Yes!    When Jack took that punch from Ennis, you can hear him Gasp almost in tears.   VERY REALISTIC!    Trust me, I recall getting hit like that in grade school, and Jacks reaction was "Spot-on" acurate.

Offline opinionista

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Re: Our Boys Crying..
« Reply #9 on: June 08, 2006, 07:27:06 pm »
Kea, I like your questions.  I hate crying, I have the usual male perspective of feeling like it makes me look weak.  It's more like what the crying is expressing that is difficult for me.  So when the movie came out, I kinda knew it would be carthartic in that it would allow me to cry for a bit.  And even then, it was only afterwards at my friend's apartment and a glass of wine that I let myself bawl.  He was kind of taken aback by it.

I envy women the ability to be more expressive with their emotions.  I know the idea is that gay men are often more in touch with their feelings, but I don't always find that to be so. 
Juan

The idea that gay men are often more in touch with their feelings is wrong. In my opinion crying or expressing feelings has nothing to do with your sexual orientation. It actually has to do with the way you're raised and the culture you belong to. My brother has a lot of emotional problems because of his inability to express his feelings. My father, and every men in my family, thought him that crying is for sissies or for girls, and he believed it. And now my brother is spending good money on psychologists to deal with the consequences of having repressed his feelings during his entire life.

Jack and Ennis were raised to be men, machos, cowboys, so it is not surprising that they find it hard to express their feelings. And that is precisely what makes them more sensitive, in my opinion. I think men, in general, (gay or straight) don't cry as easily as women do, but its harder for them to deal with any emotional situation than its for women.

I think Ennis cries more easily than Jack does because he doesn't speak about his feelings at all. He keeps them all to himself, unaware that feelings always find their way out. That's the reason for his violent outbursts and why he cries more than Jack does in the movie. Jack talks more, so he has less necessity to cry than Ennis does.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2006, 07:10:22 am by opinionista »
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Offline wolf

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Re: Our Boys Crying..
« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2006, 11:22:32 pm »
wow, very interesting to see that Tally of Tears  :o :( :'(.  had realised Ennis was more of a crier than Jack, but not THAT much more  ;D.  makes sense tho, as previous poster said.  he's less able to vent via articulation than Jack, so the ol' pressure cooker blows.

just did a quick tally of my own good man's occassions of weepiness, and got something of a surprise there too:

at our wedding
after our first fight
when his father passed away
when our son was born
when our daughter was born
when watching BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN

that's all I know of in 17 years - how about them apples  :P.

W

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Our Boys Crying..
« Reply #11 on: June 09, 2006, 12:17:07 am »
when watching BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN

Now we know why you've let him stick around for 17 years.  :-*

gattaca

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Re: Our Boys Crying..
« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2006, 09:47:54 am »
:)
Interesting thread - I just found it. (I'm a little slow on the uptake, I guess).

Jack shed tears alone after the divorce scene, seen by no one, except Ang Lee's camera lens. It resonated with me simply because that's the way I release pain. Privately. (I can't tell you how many times I have shed tears over this movie, but if I were watching it with someone else, I'd bottle that up). Jack's tears were a combination of pain, rage (look closely at his eyes), dashed hopes and desperation.

I have observed that many American men (I'm pretty sure sexual orientation is not a factor) bottle their feelings up publicly. Perhaps that's a contributing factor to our outwardly violent natures.

I couldn't say why Ennis' tears were seen more throughout the film, other than Ang Lee's use of tears to heighten Ennis' emotional conflict (Jack was not nearly as conflicted) - I believe that Ennis had that 'tape' of his dad showing the two brothers Earl's dry-gulched corpse playing in his head every time Jack made even the most subtle reference to the two of them having a life together - and by extension, I also think anyone trying to get close to Ennis, male or female, would trigger that 'tape'. Ennis is held forever hostage to his father's singular hatreds and it poisoned every good thing that ever happened to Ennis.

Ennis' tears had far more complex sources than did Jack's.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2006, 09:50:13 am by gattaca »

Offline bbm_stitchbuffyfan

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Re: Our Boys Crying..
« Reply #13 on: June 10, 2006, 12:03:56 pm »
I think Jack did some crying after the final lake scene. Just my theory. And he definitely looked on the verge of tears in the "You've seen this?" scene (see: my avatar).

This is a really interesting thread though. Can't contribute much else right now.
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Offline Rayn

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Re: Our Boys Crying..
« Reply #14 on: June 10, 2006, 12:18:59 pm »
There's a lot here, so I'll just try to answer the original questions:


1.  Were they really more in touch with their feelings than we know or did they repress them?

I saw Jack as being more aware of his feelings and then Ennis came along in time, but both were very aware of how they felt about each other after their reunion.  They both had social conventions of their "cowboy" society to contend with and that makes they often appear to repress, but it's more "control" their feelings, I think.
 
2.  Do you think they showed more in private where we would not see them?

Yes, I do.

3.  Also.....this question came up.......about men crying..... Do you think men cry as easily as we women do? 

No, it depends on the person.  I cry more easily than many women friends of mine, but to look at me, you'd never expect that would be the case.   There's nothing "lady like" about me.

5.  or No, they push it down deep?

Some do, others don't.

6.  Is sensitivity a gender trait?

No, men can just as sensitive or more sensitive than women and vice versa.

7.  How have you felt seeing a man cry?

I feel sympathy, usually.  If it's a friend, I may try to comfort or encourage, but I'd never stop anyone from crying if they feel such emotions.


8.  Who was more sensitive ..Jack or Ennis??

They are both sensitive. Ennis was very sensitive, but couldn't deal with it was well.  Jack showed his sensitivity more easily.  They were both hurt by not being able to be together and both of them showed that is different ways.  I have no problem with either of them crying.  Tears are an expression of human emotion.  They have nothing to do with gender, unless you are conditioned to think they are.   Also, being in love is often an overwhelming emotional experience and emotions that are as strong as Love cannot always be "control" and don't always fit into neat "male or female' behavior packages.   You know?

Offline Anya_Angie

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Re: Our Boys Crying..
« Reply #15 on: June 10, 2006, 12:50:14 pm »
I am agreeing with some things already said regarding our boys, that they have these feelings, but don't show them. They repress them. In Ennis' case, despite the fact that he cried more than Jack in the film, I still think he has more repressed feelings than Jack. Though I can't really say why I feel this way...

The men I know best in my life are my stepdad and my father. My stepfather and father are as different as can be. My father is quiet, reserved, compleely unemotional. The only time I ever saw him cry was at his mother's funeral in 2001. And even then, it wasn't that tears were flowing; as far as I could tell they were still in his eyes. He was stiff and frozen.

My stepdad has never cried that I know of. When he's upset, he launches straight into anger. He's never violent, thank God, or I'd be terrified to be in the same room with him. But he shouts and swears. Sometimes I think he must be very repressed regarding his feelings in general because he will get upset over the STUPIDEST things! Like, for example, if he can't find some bananas or lunchmeat that was simply misplaced. When my mother points them out to him, he flips because he's been proven wrong. That's something that irks me altogether about him. Niether of us like to be proven wrong. When I know I am right, when disagreeing with him, we get into a shouting match that never ends! Thank God I have my own house now where I can go to get away from him, even if it is just next door. That's still a lot better than locking myself in my room for fear he would burst in.

I have an older brother, but he is very much like my father in that he doesn't really show his feelings either.

This might sound silly, but the only time I ever saw a man cry in "real life" would be at Skate Canada in 2005, when Johnny Weir sprained his ankle in the middle of his program, yet continued to skate. After he finished, he went to receive his marks and cried, but he did not show his face; he had his head down. You could hear him sobbing, that of course was from the physical pain, also perhaps the possibility that he might have to be out of competition for a while which might have jeopardized the Olympics...

But I digress. Anyway, that's really the only time I saw a man really "cry" in a real life circumstance.
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Re: Our Boys Crying..
« Reply #16 on: August 13, 2006, 10:10:12 am »
I envy women the ability to be more expressive with their emotions.  I know the idea is that gay men are often more in touch with their feelings, but I don't always find that to be so.  In fact I think we have sort of developed a different way of defending against them (cynical or bitchy humor, etc.)

My late Religious Science teacher/minister in Atlanta (he was gay, BTW) used to say that women are encouraged by society to express emotions "to a fault", with only one exception: anger. And that, conversely, men are encouraged to repress emotions to a fault, with that same exact exception.  IMO one of his better insights, definitely.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Our Boys Crying..
« Reply #17 on: August 13, 2006, 10:20:55 am »
My late Religious Science teacher/minister in Atlanta (he was gay, BTW) used to say that women are encouraged by society to express emotions "to a fault", with only one exception: anger. And that, conversely, men are encouraged to repress emotions to a fault, with that same exact exception.  IMO one of his better insights, definitely.

Wow, that is an excellent observation. I bet I will remember that, and he wasn't even my teacher!

Offline silkncense

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Re: Our Boys Crying..
« Reply #18 on: August 13, 2006, 01:43:09 pm »
Quote
Jack shed tears alone after the divorce scene, seen by no one, except Ang Lee's camera lens. It resonated with me simply because that's the way I release pain. Privately. (I can't tell you how many times I have shed tears over this movie, but if I were watching it with someone else, I'd bottle that up).

That is SO me (generally) although sometimes a few silent tears rolled down my cheeks.  And not just the film - none of my friends see me cry - breakups, divorce -

Quote
women are encouraged by society to express emotions "to a fault", with only one exception: anger. And that, conversely, men are encouraged to repress emotions to a fault, with that same exact exception.

I think I may be a man.

"……when I think of him, I just can't keep from crying…because he was a friend of mine…"

Offline Momof2

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Re: Our Boys Crying..
« Reply #19 on: August 14, 2006, 10:32:16 am »
I am an extremely emotional person.  Growing up, I never saw men cry.  The ony time I saw it was during something tragic, i.e. death.  I had never seen my husband cry before our daughter was born.  Very stoic.  Would not let those emotions out.  The minute she came out he was balling like a baby.  Did not care who saw it.  My heart melted.  The next time I saw him cry was when our son was born.  Same thing.  As soon as he was out, balling like a baby and proud of it.  He got sick when our son was 7 months old.  Now he is alot more emotional than he has ever been.  I think when you go through something like that you appreciate things more. 

I am trying to teach my son that it is ok to cry and to show your emotions.  My husband supports this though at first I thought he would not.  He says he wants him to have a better life and to let the people he loves know it.  It is hard when society tells him and all other males that this is not acceptable.  My daughter, the drama queen, has no problems showing her emotions, good or bad.  My son is very preceptive of others feelings.  So tender.  Of course I am sure this will end in a few years when he is shamed into not showing emotions.  So sad.  I will not give up.

I guess that is why when you see a man cry is has such an impact because it is not something alot of us see.  When Ennis cries at the divorce and then Jack cries leaving after the divorce scene it kills me.  So powerful.
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Offline malina

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Re: Our Boys Crying..
« Reply #20 on: September 18, 2006, 03:23:02 am »
Interesting thread. I know it is an older one but I am new here, and I hope no one minds a 'late' response...

I realized for the first time while reading through this thread that Ennis actually reminds me a lot of my dad: lots of inner turmoil, a big investment in being the 'strong man', explosive temper, periodically uncontrollable overflow of  emotion. (Ennis seems to have controlled it more around his kids than my dad did - lucky them!) The thing is, the 'strong, stoic man' image can be very deceptive. It just means that the emotional contents are under pressure. It isn't surprising that Ennis, though he might look like (and see himself as) a man who never cries, cries six times in this movie.

I would differentiate, though, between the times when Ennis simply has a single tear dripping down his face and the two times we see him actually break down and sob - in the culvert, and during the lake fight scene. In both of those, the sobs are torn out of him: this man is tormented. Contrast that to Jack, crying in the truck after the divorce rejection scene: he just lets himself cry. If that had been Ennis, he'd've had to pull over and start punching the dashboard or something.

I must say that as a kid, watching my dad have extreme and dramatic meltdowns did make me think he was weak. I don't think that was societal conditioning as much as the contrast between what he tried to present and what he ended up being reduced to. It was disillusioning: I'd think, if this huge, strong man can just dissolve like that, then the whole image of masculine strength must be an illusion. I didn't know the Jack model was a possibility.

Now I just think.. poor, poor Ennis. I'm so glad he had Jack.