Author Topic: Why does Ennis....  (Read 16641 times)

mvansand76

  • Guest
Why does Ennis....
« on: December 18, 2006, 05:11:26 pm »
....walk in the middle of the road after he and Jack have said goodbye in Signal? There's a perfectly good sidewalk where he would not have risked being run over by Jack in his GMC.... Of course we would not have had that gorgeous scene of Jack looking longingly in his rearview mirror...

Offline Katie77

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 7,998
  • Love is a force of Nature
Re: Why does Ennis....
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2006, 07:10:58 pm »
A couple of reasons, why ennis walked in the middle of the road.....

1.....it was obviously a town with not too much vehicular traffic.

2.....He was feeling despondent, and really was in no mood to think of where he was walking.

3.....If he had got hit by a car, he wouldnt have cared, it would have put him out of the misery he was feeling.

4.....(and this is the real reason, I think)....by walking in the middle of the road, he knew Jack would be able to see him in his rear view mirror, and maybe he was hoping, that if he stayed in Jack's view, there was always a chance that Jack might turn around and come and get him. (OMG, I wish that is what happened)
Being happy doesn't mean everything is perfect.

It means you've decided to see beyond the imperfection

Offline Front-Ranger

  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 30,332
  • Brokeback got us good.
Re: Why does Ennis....
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2006, 07:39:40 pm »
Good answers, Katie. I would add:

5.....There were no sidewalks in Signal

6.....If you walk down the side of the road, you might raise suspicions from the property owners

7.....There were so many junked pickups parked on the road, the middle was the only place to walk

8.....You could get bit by dogs if you got too close to the side of the road

Now, why did Ennis just stare into the fire when Jack said, "Sometimes I miss you so much, I can hardly stand it" ??
"chewing gum and duct tape"

Offline serious crayons

  • Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,769
Re: Why does Ennis....
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2006, 08:11:42 pm »
Now, why did Ennis just stare into the fire when Jack said, "Sometimes I miss you so much, I can hardly stand it"??

I can think of two possibilities:

Because he misheard Jack, thought he said, "Sometimes you piss me off so much, I can hardly stand you" and his feelings were hurt.

-- OR --

Because Ennis could hardly stand it, either, and was busy figuring out the best way to say so to Jack. "Maybe tomorrow, as we're getting ready to leave, I'll collapse in a sobbing heap and clutch onto his parka," Ennis thought.

Offline BBM-Cat

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • Brokeback Got Me Good
  • *****
  • Posts: 611
Re: Why does Ennis....
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2006, 08:59:12 pm »
Love the first one! LOL   But yeah - that baffles me too - another missed opportunity between Jack and Ennis - especially for Ennis to reciprocate Jack's raw sentiment. Maybe he just did not know what to say to that (although I believe he felt it).

I can think of two possibilities:

Because he misheard Jack, thought he said, "Sometimes you piss me off so much, I can hardly stand you" and his feelings were hurt.

-- OR --

Because Ennis could hardly stand it, either, and was busy figuring out the best way to say so to Jack. "Maybe tomorrow, as we're getting ready to leave, I'll collapse in a sobbing heap and clutch onto his parka," Ennis thought.

Six-word Stories:  ~Jack: Lightning Flat, lightning love, flat denied   ~Ennis: Open space: flat tire, tire iron?

Offline Front-Ranger

  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 30,332
  • Brokeback got us good.
Re: Why does Ennis....
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2006, 10:05:00 pm »
...say "he's from Texas" when Alma wants him to invite Jack in for coffee??

"chewing gum and duct tape"

Offline Katie77

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 7,998
  • Love is a force of Nature
Re: Why does Ennis....
« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2006, 05:19:23 am »
...say "he's from Texas" when Alma wants him to invite Jack in for coffee??



Obviously, that was the first thing that came into Ennis's head......the real reason is obvious....he was in such a hurry to get Jack into bed, he didnt want to waste time having bloody coffee with Alma...........
Being happy doesn't mean everything is perfect.

It means you've decided to see beyond the imperfection

mvansand76

  • Guest
Re: Why does Ennis....
« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2006, 06:00:32 am »
Good answers, Katie. I would add:

5.....There were no sidewalks in Signal


Aaaaah but there are!  :D  You can see the sidewalk in the scene where Ennis walks away...the guy who 'almost helps' him when he is retching in the alley walks on it!

Offline Jeff Wrangler

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,193
  • "He somebody you cowboy'd with?"
Re: Why does Ennis....
« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2006, 10:23:15 am »
....walk in the middle of the road after he and Jack have said goodbye in Signal? There's a perfectly good sidewalk where he would not have risked being run over by Jack in his GMC.... Of course we would not have had that gorgeous scene of Jack looking longingly in his rearview mirror...

Well, sure. He needed to be in the range of the view of Jack's rearview mirror so that he would be in camera range. ...  ;D
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline angry little lawyer

  • Jr. Ranch Hand
  • **
  • Posts: 10
Re: Why does Ennis....
« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2006, 03:45:50 am »
LOL. "He's from Texas" still makes he laugh so hard....And he says it with such conviction...like that's the logical answer of why a person would not want to go inside for coffee...I loved Alma's quick reaction to that "Texans don't drink coffee?" Cuz I would have been "Yeahbuhwhat?" ;D :laugh:

Why is the Twist's color scheme for their house white on white? Has John Twist not heard of this newfangled invention called color?
If I take that aspirin....then I took it
-The Wisdom of 12 oz. Mouse

Offline jpwagoneer1964

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,720
  • Me and my 1951 DeSoto Suburban
Re: Why does Ennis....
« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2006, 11:29:03 am »


Now, why did Ennis just stare into the fire when Jack said, "Sometimes I miss you so much, I can hardly stand it" ??

Ennis said nothing cause he knew he couldn't make August, so he wait until the end . He knew it make Jack upset and of course he was right. Remember the line line. "You had a whole to tell me this Ennis...." Of course it still didn't change that he couldn't make it. This is why I maintain that the "Sometime I miss..." was not the last night of the trip but 2nd or 3rd.

Mark
« Last Edit: December 22, 2006, 05:01:05 pm by jpwagoneer1964 »
Thank you Heath and Jake for showing us Ennis and Jack,  teaching us how much they loved one another.

Offline Ellemeno

  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • ********
  • Posts: 15,367
Re: Why does Ennis....
« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2006, 04:47:07 pm »

Now, why did Ennis just stare into the fire when Jack said, "Sometimes I miss you so much, I can hardly stand it" ??



This used to be one of the things I was maddest at Ennis for.  Then someone here helped me figure it out - all week he knew he needed to tell Jack that he wasn't going to be able to make it in August, and this was their last evening together.  Feeling lots of pressure to tell Jack, and dread at Jack's response, it incapacitated him further when Jack told him how much he misses him.  He hates hurting Jack...so he froze up and shut up.  :(

Why does Ennis say, "If I don't have to sing?"

Offline Front-Ranger

  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 30,332
  • Brokeback got us good.
Re: Why does Ennis....
« Reply #12 on: December 22, 2006, 05:22:32 pm »
It's not because Heath doesn't know how to sing; we know he does because he did on "One of the Things I Hate About You." But Ennis doesn't want to sing OR dance because he is so repressed. He is actually a good singer and dancer, and he has a good sense of rhythm, you can tell by the way he beats on the coffee pot during "Water Walking Jesus." But if he shows his true feelings through self-expression he is afraid that people will find out about him and beat him up.

Why does Ennis not tell Jack his last name when he meets him?
« Last Edit: December 22, 2006, 06:27:26 pm by Front-Ranger »
"chewing gum and duct tape"

Offline Ellemeno

  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • ********
  • Posts: 15,367
Re: Why does Ennis....
« Reply #13 on: December 23, 2006, 01:25:34 am »

Why does Alma plead her case for moving to town with ?Other kids for the girls to play with?? We see ?em playing at the apartment three times...by themselves.



Whew, good one.  I look forward to seeing what gets written about that.

Offline Katie77

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 7,998
  • Love is a force of Nature
Re: Why does Ennis....
« Reply #14 on: December 23, 2006, 01:59:18 am »


Why does Alma plead her case for moving to town with “Other kids for the girls to play with”? We see ’em playing at the apartment three times...by themselves.

Cause SHE wanted to be in town, and like a lot of mothers she blackmails her hubby by saying it is for the benefit of the kids.....

She also says she could do it up nice....but it looked a bloody mess most of the time.....
Being happy doesn't mean everything is perfect.

It means you've decided to see beyond the imperfection

Offline serious crayons

  • Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,769
Re: Why does Ennis....
« Reply #15 on: December 23, 2006, 03:51:37 am »
This is why I maintain that the "Sometime I miss..." was not the last night of the trip but 2nd or 3rd.

This is true to the story, Mark! I don't have it in front of me, but what comes closest to that campfire scene in the story, and is followed by the sentence about "the brilliant spark of their infrequent couplings" and "never enough time, never enough" is followed by "a day or two later ..."

The story is usually specific about details like that. For instance, earlier on that same trip, the weather that Ennis was expecting arrives precisely three days later. Anyone have any ideas why the time frame of that last part is vague, rather than either "the next day" or "two days later"?

Why does Ennis say, "If I don't have to sing?"

Good one, Elle! Maybe he means it in the sense of how someone who confesses to a crime to the police "sings" -- that is, admits the truth. Ennis is willing to go to the church picnic as long as he doesn't have to be truthful about himself. Eventually, as he gets more paranoid -- they'll figure him out whether he sings or not -- he can't even stand to be around that fire and brimstone crowd.

Why does Ennis give Alma that look in the grocery store, and, more perplexing, why does Alma so suddenly capitulate?

Offline nakymaton

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,045
  • aka Mel
Re: Why does Ennis....
« Reply #16 on: December 23, 2006, 12:26:22 pm »
Why does story-Ennis call Jack about the divorce? That’s the only time he phones Jack.

Ennis is lonely. Really, desperately lonely. He may not have loved Alma, but there was something comforting about domesticity and especially about the girls, even when the marriage was falling apart. He was lonely, and reached out to the one person he felt comfortable with, to the one person whose voice he wanted to hear the most.

And Jack heard that, and thought it was also an invitation and an opening. But Ennis couldn't bring himself to go that far. A phone call was drastic enough, and he didn't do it again, until it was too late.
Watch out. That poster has a low startle point.

mvansand76

  • Guest
Re: Why does Ennis....
« Reply #17 on: December 23, 2006, 12:41:57 pm »
Ennis is lonely. Really, desperately lonely. He may not have loved Alma, but there was something comforting about domesticity and especially about the girls, even when the marriage was falling apart. He was lonely, and reached out to the one person he felt comfortable with, to the one person whose voice he wanted to hear the most.

And Jack heard that, and thought it was also an invitation and an opening. But Ennis couldn't bring himself to go that far. A phone call was drastic enough, and he didn't do it again, until it was too late.

hey how did we get from Ennis walking in the middle of the road to Ennis' divorce?

 ;)

Offline Katie77

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 7,998
  • Love is a force of Nature
Re: Why does Ennis....
« Reply #18 on: December 23, 2006, 12:53:28 pm »
Why does story-Ennis call Jack about the divorce? That’s the only time he phones Jack.

Maybe when he called Jack after the divorce, Ennis was in the frame of mind, that he wanted Jack, but Ennis had moments like that, when he threw caution to the wind, like in the reunion scene...but he soon gets back into his paranoia and stand offish ways.....also, when Jack arrived after the divorce, Ennis had the two girls, so the situation was a bit awkward....a different day, different circumstances, Ennis may have greeted Jack differently.....
Being happy doesn't mean everything is perfect.

It means you've decided to see beyond the imperfection

Offline Kd5000

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • Brokeback Got Me Good
  • *****
  • Posts: 910
Re: Why does Ennis....
« Reply #19 on: December 23, 2006, 01:00:04 pm »
Ennis had been drinking as he was so nervous about Jack's arrival. His feelings he had repressed had come back to the surface. It might have played a factor in why he let his guard down. Also he wanted Jack to know where he stood.  A handshake wouldn't have been the same.   :)   I mean I drove all the way up from TX just to get a handshake and go out to dinner with you and your wife...

Obviously, Ennis was back to his normal paranoid self when Jack showed up saying I got your card.  Even without the girls there, Ennis would have said, nothing has changed.  I mean he even noticed the pick-up truck driving by while he was talking to Jack.  If that's not being excessively worrisome, I don't know what is.   Two guys talking having a conversation in the field isn't exactly going to attract any attention.

Offline jpwagoneer1964

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,720
  • Me and my 1951 DeSoto Suburban
Re: Why does Ennis....
« Reply #20 on: December 23, 2006, 01:15:59 pm »
This was my take in the post divorce scene with I caption I did in 'Fantasy Scenes' a while back:

Ennis thinking to Jack
Jack...Jack I'm sorry I had to send you away. I can't tell you how bad I feel, know I won't sleep a wink thinkin' what I put you through.. I sent you the card to let you know my troubles, felt better that I could tell 'm to you. I just wasn't thinkin', didn't know what the words would mean to you. I took that smile of yours right off you face, never saw ya lookin' so sad. So sorry ya came all this way, wouldn't blame ya a bit if ya never came back. Jack...Jack it felt so good to be in in your arms, see that smile 'fore I took it away. Jack I hope you can forgive me, and sure hope you be there next month like ya said.



Mark
« Last Edit: December 23, 2006, 01:31:24 pm by jpwagoneer1964 »
Thank you Heath and Jake for showing us Ennis and Jack,  teaching us how much they loved one another.

Offline Penthesilea

  • Town Administration
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 14,745
Re: Why does Ennis....
« Reply #21 on: December 23, 2006, 05:07:50 pm »
Ennis is lonely. Really, desperately lonely. He may not have loved Alma, but there was something comforting about domesticity and especially about the girls, even when the marriage was falling apart. He was lonely, and reached out to the one person he felt comfortable with, to the one person whose voice he wanted to hear the most.

And Jack heard that, and thought it was also an invitation and an opening. But Ennis couldn't bring himself to go that far. A phone call was drastic enough, and he didn't do it again, until it was too late.

I agree with your take on this, Mel.

If only.....  :(


This was my take in the post divorce scene with I caption I did in 'Fantasy Scenes' a while back:

Ennis thinking to Jack
Jack...Jack I'm sorry I had to send you away. I can't tell you how bad I feel, know I won't sleep a wink thinkin' what I put you through.. I sent you the card to let you know my troubles, felt better that I could tell 'm to you. I just wasn't thinkin', didn't know what the words would mean to you. I took that smile of yours right off you face, never saw ya lookin' so sad. So sorry ya came all this way, wouldn't blame ya a bit if ya never came back. Jack...Jack it felt so good to be in in your arms, see that smile 'fore I took it away. Jack I hope you can forgive me, and sure hope you be there next month like ya said.



Mark

Mark, I think your take on this topic is very similar to Mel's (and mine). Ennis was desperate after his divorce and just needed to reach out to THE one person - Jack.
This scene and Mel's description makes me sad. And you more lyrical description put me over the edge right now:  :'(

I think the post divorce scene is a bit tricky to understand. You have to know Ennis to get it. At my first viewing of the movie, I didn't understand Jack's reaction. I thought Ennis was speaking of just this moment, sending him away for only now (because of the girls).

And still, after all these months and viewings: I can understand Jack's reaction, that he pulled away as long as he retained a rest of his dignity.
But sometimes I ask myself what would have been, had Jack been more insitent? If Jack had said he'd come back later that night, if he had stood right before Ennis' door again some hours later, determined to stay at least that one night?
Had there been a tiny chance?  I still tend to think that there would have been at least a tiny chance for Jack to coax Ennis into something different. But maybe that's only the helpless romantic in me.

But I'm aware that one thing is for sure: the story/movie wouldn't have worked the way it does, had the outcome of this scene been different.

Offline nakymaton

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,045
  • aka Mel
Re: Why does Ennis....
« Reply #22 on: December 23, 2006, 05:55:23 pm »
But sometimes I ask myself what would have been, had Jack been more insitent?

If that had happened, Jack and Ennis would have ceased to be Jack and Ennis, and would have become two entirely different people.

It was a tipping point, definitely - more than at any point in the story, that's the point at which I can most imagine things ending differently. But the relationship had a delicate balance to it, and by the time of the divorce, I think the nature of the balance was clear to both men. In the story, a phone call might have been so unusual that it made Jack think that the balance had been altered. The movie doesn't explain how the postcard made Jack think things were different, but something must have. But the balance hadn't really changed.

(I kind of see the punch at the end of the summer as an example of what happens when the balance is disturbed. Not that Ennis is inherently violent or anything like that, and not that Ennis would have punched Jack again. Just that Jack knew that Ennis had a low startle point, and Ennis might have thrown Jack once, but he wasn't going to throw him again.)
Watch out. That poster has a low startle point.

Offline Penthesilea

  • Town Administration
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 14,745
Re: Why does Ennis....
« Reply #23 on: December 23, 2006, 08:35:04 pm »
If that had happened, Jack and Ennis would have ceased to be Jack and Ennis, and would have become two entirely different people.

I guess you mean the same thing that I meant with saying the story/movie would not have worked the way it does. Would have been a whole different story.
So it might be nitpicking, but I don't agree with your wording. People can act in different ways, with different outcomes and those outcomes have repercussions on the person. But that doesn't mean the person will be an entirely different person.

I'm always best in explaining with simplifying examples: imagine you were offered two jobs: one in Alaska and one in Florida. No matter which one you will take, it will alter your enviroment, your social contacts, your lifestyle. But you wouldn't stop being Mel and become an entirely different person. Some things would change, but not your whole personality.

Quote
It was a tipping point, definitely - more than at any point in the story, that's the point at which I can most imagine things ending differently.

For me it's one of the two points. The second one for me is after their lakeside confrontation. If Jack hadn't died... I'm one of those who believe Ennis had it in himself to come around (and still be Ennis). I think he was on a good way. Since we've discussed this already, I just mention some keywords:  the way their argument shook him to the core, dumping Cassie, admitting that he can't stand it anymore not only to himself, but also to Jack, trying once more to get days off in August, his look in the diner (pie-scene) after Cassie leaves.
Of course I speak of movie Ennis here. For story Ennis, we can only rely on Annie's word's: torqued things to almost were they had been...nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved.
But on the other side, SEnnis, just like his movie pendant, was so terrified by Jack's word's that it drove him to his knees, he looked like heart-shot.
It's harder for me to imagine what might have been (if Jack hadn't died) for the short story.

Quote
But the relationship had a delicate balance to it, and by the time of the divorce, I think the nature of the balance was clear to both men. In the story, a phone call might have been so unusual that it made Jack think that the balance had been altered. The movie doesn't explain how the postcard made Jack think things were different, but something must have. But the balance hadn't really changed.

(I kind of see the punch at the end of the summer as an example of what happens when the balance is disturbed. Not that Ennis is inherently violent or anything like that, and not that Ennis would have punched Jack again. Just that Jack knew that Ennis had a low startle point, and Ennis might have thrown Jack once, but he wasn't going to throw him again.)

The balance = their pact = not queer, not in love, only friends with additional benefits ("this thing", that grabs hold of them); and therefore a couple of HAF are enough. And, also important to their pact (for the balance): don't ask, don't tell, go on pretending.
Pretty fragile this balance. Each and every good-bye must have told both of them another truth.


Offline BBM-Cat

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • Brokeback Got Me Good
  • *****
  • Posts: 611
Re: Why does Ennis....
« Reply #24 on: December 23, 2006, 08:39:59 pm »
That's extremely insightful - I am only now understanding the scene better because of your post - if I am understanding correctly, your perceptions are that Jack was taking in the 'big picture' - Ennis' inability to commit to the sweet life together - not just that one weekend in particular...? I had not thought of that way, but it fits so much better with our viewing of Jack's heartbreak. I hope I am understanding.

I think the post divorce scene is a bit tricky to understand. You have to know Ennis to get it. At my first viewing of the movie, I didn't understand Jack's reaction. I thought Ennis was speaking of just this moment, sending him away for only now (because of the girls).
Six-word Stories:  ~Jack: Lightning Flat, lightning love, flat denied   ~Ennis: Open space: flat tire, tire iron?

Offline Katie77

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 7,998
  • Love is a force of Nature
Re: Why does Ennis....
« Reply #25 on: December 23, 2006, 08:43:22 pm »
I
And still, after all these months and viewings: I can understand Jack's reaction, that he pulled away as long as he retained a rest of his dignity.
But sometimes I ask myself what would have been, had Jack been more insitent? If Jack had said he'd come back later that night, if he had stood right before Ennis' door again some hours later, determined to stay at least that one night?
Had there been a tiny chance?  I still tend to think that there would have been at least a tiny chance for Jack to coax Ennis into something different. But maybe that's only the helpless romantic in me.

But I'm aware that one thing is for sure: the story/movie wouldn't have worked the way it does, had the outcome of this scene been different.

If Jack had been more insistent, and also if Ennis had been a bit more hospitable....gees, Jack had just driven all that way, and Ennis sent him on his way after only just a few minutes.....

Seeing as Jack was there, why didnt they work out a time when the girls had gone home and they could at least have some "alone" time.

.....and if that all would have made the story different, so what, why couldnt it have been a happy ending love story?????
Being happy doesn't mean everything is perfect.

It means you've decided to see beyond the imperfection

Offline nakymaton

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,045
  • aka Mel
Re: Why does Ennis....
« Reply #26 on: December 23, 2006, 09:38:26 pm »
So it might be nitpicking, but I don't agree with your wording. People can act in different ways, with different outcomes and those outcomes have repercussions on the person. But that doesn't mean the person will be an entirely different person.

No, I meant what I said. Or maybe to put it another way: in order for things to have come out differently, Jack and Ennis would have had to have been different people. A different character than Ennis might have moved in with Jack; a different character than Jack might have forced the issue with Ennis. But not the two characters in the movie.

Any story that changes the outcome is no longer about Jack and Ennis.
Watch out. That poster has a low startle point.

Offline jpwagoneer1964

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,720
  • Me and my 1951 DeSoto Suburban
Re: Why does Ennis....
« Reply #27 on: December 23, 2006, 09:55:38 pm »
I have always felt that had Jack lived Ennis would have come around. One big reason, his daughters were nearly grown, a huge reason up to then he wouldn't leave Riverton.

Mark
Thank you Heath and Jake for showing us Ennis and Jack,  teaching us how much they loved one another.

Offline Front-Ranger

  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 30,332
  • Brokeback got us good.
Re: Why does Ennis....
« Reply #28 on: December 28, 2006, 07:36:28 pm »
Why does Ennis call his father, who he suspects of being a murderer and a bigot, a "fine calf roper" ?
"chewing gum and duct tape"

Offline jpwagoneer1964

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,720
  • Me and my 1951 DeSoto Suburban
Re: Why does Ennis....
« Reply #29 on: December 28, 2006, 08:16:33 pm »
Why does Ennis call his father, who he suspects of being a murderer and a bigot, a "fine calf roper" ?
I thing doesn't have anything to do with the other.
Thank you Heath and Jake for showing us Ennis and Jack,  teaching us how much they loved one another.

Marge_Innavera

  • Guest
Re: Why does Ennis....
« Reply #30 on: December 29, 2006, 06:57:34 am »
Why is the Twist's color scheme for their house white on white? Has John Twist not heard of this newfangled invention called color?

I can think of four reasons, three legit and one, well....

1) Symbolism borrowed from Ang Lee's Asian culture - white is a funeral color;

2) For an otherworldly feel to the scene;

3) The circumstance of this being an abandoned house and BBM having been shot on a low budget - slapping on some white paint would be a quick and cheap way of making the house look dilapidated but lived in; and

4) Mrs. Twist was psychic when it came to silly-ass decorating fashions. In this case, she had a precognitive dream of those thousands and thousands of cookie-cutter subdivisions with 8-bedroom houses on postage stamp lots and every last one with a white-on-white decorating scheme inside.  In some parts of the US, houses in suburban subdivisions seem to have been soaked in some giant vat of bleach.

Marge_Innavera

  • Guest
Re: Why does Ennis....
« Reply #31 on: December 29, 2006, 07:00:55 am »
Why does Ennis call his father, who he suspects of being a murderer and a bigot, a "fine calf roper" ?

Probably denial. Plenty of adults who've had grossly abusive parents do some very creative editing in their memories of them, and Ennis apparently wasn't an exception. e.g., "He was a psychopathic sonofabitch but he made really good chili. I'm going to forget that first part."

Offline Front-Ranger

  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 30,332
  • Brokeback got us good.
Re: Why does Ennis....
« Reply #32 on: December 29, 2006, 10:36:34 am »
Loved your replies, Marcia! One very funny, one sobering. Now, post a new "Why does Ennis" question!!
"chewing gum and duct tape"

Offline serious crayons

  • Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,769
Re: Why does Ennis....
« Reply #33 on: January 12, 2007, 01:51:15 am »
Why does Ennis call his father, who he suspects of being a murderer and a bigot, a "fine calf roper" ?

Probably denial. Plenty of adults who've had grossly abusive parents do some very creative editing in their memories of them, and Ennis apparently wasn't an exception. e.g., "He was a psychopathic sonofabitch but he made really good chili. I'm going to forget that first part."

Actually, I don't think Ennis sees his father as being either bigoted or grossly abusive. He thinks his dad was right -- when he jokingly says this to Jack about his dad's opinion of rodeoers, it means so much more. In other words, he sees everything his father did and said (with the possible exception of the actual murder, which is unclear), as a legitimate and correct reflection of right and wrong. To Ennis, his dad's opinion reflects the realities of society and the universe. He wasn't bigoted, in Ennis' eyes, because Ennis thought homosexuality was wrong, too. He wasn't abusive, he was just teaching his son about the world. So not only was Mr. Ennis a fine roper, to Ennis probably considered him a decent dad. Poor Ennis!  :-\

Why does Ennis look like he has just thought of something, after Cassie runs out of the bus station?

Offline Katie77

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 7,998
  • Love is a force of Nature
Re: Why does Ennis....
« Reply #34 on: January 13, 2007, 07:12:24 am »
Why does Ennis write to Jack telling him about the divorce, then rejects him when he comes to visit him?
Being happy doesn't mean everything is perfect.

It means you've decided to see beyond the imperfection

mvansand76

  • Guest
Re: Why does Ennis....
« Reply #35 on: January 13, 2007, 07:14:16 am »
Why does Ennis write to Jack telling him about the divorce, then rejects him when he comes to visit him?

Because he wanted to tell his best friend, his only friend about it but never intended to make it sound like an invitation for that sweet life that Jack was always talking about. Or maybe in the back of his mind he did, but when he saw Jack there he freaked out.

Offline Penthesilea

  • Town Administration
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 14,745
Re: Why does Ennis....
« Reply #36 on: January 13, 2007, 09:40:45 am »
Why does Ennis write to Jack telling him about the divorce, then rejects him when he comes to visit him?

Because he wanted to tell his best friend, his only friend about it but never intended to make it sound like an invitation for that sweet life that Jack was always talking about. Or maybe in the back of his mind he did, but when he saw Jack there he freaked out.

I think it's more than only the want to let him know about the divorce, more than just passing on news. Ennis was lonley and desperate, he needed to reach out to the only person he could do so.
A moment of weakness, when he couldn't stand it and let the walls down a bit. But when Jack arrived, he had them up again.

Very crucial moment. The best (only?) chance for that sweet life. If only, if only...

Offline Penthesilea

  • Town Administration
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 14,745
Re: Why does Ennis....
« Reply #37 on: January 13, 2007, 10:29:09 am »

he sees everything his father did and said (with the possible exception of the actual murder, which is unclear), as a legitimate and correct reflection of right and wrong. To Ennis, his dad's opinion reflects the realities of society and the universe. ?

The way he says “...he done the job” as if what happened to Earl was a task that had to be done. I’m not saying Ennis views it as such, but I wouldn’t be surprised if his father had phrased it that way.


In the book, Ennis goes on: "If he was alive and was to put his head in that door right now you bet he'd go get his tire iron."

He does not 'only' think that his own father killed Earl, but he thinks he [father] would kill him [Ennis], his own son, for having sex with a man. I think this is even worse.

Quote
To Ennis, his dad's opinion reflects the realities of society and the universe.

Yes, absolutely.

Quote
he sees everything his father did and said (with the possible exception of the actual murder, which is unclear), as a legitimate and correct reflection of right and wrong

I'd say as a logical and natural consequence. But I don't think Ennis reflected much about the moral right or wrong (if it's legitimate) of his father's actions (except the murder). It was just the way the world was to Ennis.

But what about the murder? What did Ennis think about it?



Quote
From goadra:
After Junior asks about living with him, why does Ennis say, “I’m not sayin’ I wouldn’t...”? What does that mean?

"I'm not saying I wouldn't... if I could".
...if the circumstances were other
...if you'd bug enough to get me moving my ass and see what is possible.
I would like to live with you, but I can't.

Basically he reassures her that he loves her.

My question is the one from above: But what about the murder? What did Ennis think about it?


Offline serious crayons

  • Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,769
Re: Why does Ennis....
« Reply #38 on: January 13, 2007, 04:53:26 pm »
My question is the one from above: But what about the murder? What did Ennis think about it?

I don't know if there's a really clearcut answer to this, but IMO Ennis did not approve of the murder. I think it scared the bleep out of him, he took it as a personal threat, perhaps he even considered it, as Chrissi said, a logical and natural consequence of Earl's transgression. Ennis definitely doesn't approve of homosexuality. But I don't see Ennis as someone who would get into other people's business or punish them for perceived misdeeds, let alone kill them. His threat to Jack about Mexico notwithstanding -- I don't think he really meant that sincerely. So even if he thought Earl was wrong, I don't think he considered the murder justifiable.

Because Cassie has just slapped him with the knowledge that she fell in love with him. He didn’t mean for that to happen. Going against the majority opinion, but...I don’t think this moment is the earth- (Ennis-) shattering realization that Jack fell in love with him.

I wonder what the majority DOES think. Personally, I'm more in the "he was realizing something about Jack" (either that Jack loved him or that he loved Jack) camp. Anyone else care to weigh in?

Quote
After Junior asks about living with him, why does Ennis say, “I’m not sayin’ I wouldn’t...”? What does that mean?

He means, "I'm not saying I wouldn't love to have you there, under other circumstances." Just like he'd love to live with Jack, under other circumstances.

Why does Ennis write to Jack telling him about the divorce, then rejects him when he comes to visit him?

Partly because he was really upset about the divorce and had no one else to tell. But also, and I really hate to say this again, I think he tells him -- and via postcard -- because it's a device to get Jack to drive 14 hours without notice and surprise him, only to be rejected.


Offline jpwagoneer1964

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,720
  • Me and my 1951 DeSoto Suburban
Re: Why does Ennis....
« Reply #39 on: January 13, 2007, 05:09:49 pm »
.

Partly because he was really upset about the divorce and had no one else to tell. But also, and I really hate to say this again, I think he tells him -- and via postcard -- because it's a device to get Jack to drive 14 hours without notice and surprise him, only to be rejected.


I don't think ther is ANY way Ennis thought Jack would drive up to see him and expect to move in! He just wanted to share his troubles with his closest friend.
Thank you Heath and Jake for showing us Ennis and Jack,  teaching us how much they loved one another.

Offline serious crayons

  • Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,769
Re: Why does Ennis....
« Reply #40 on: January 13, 2007, 06:10:45 pm »
I don't think ther is ANY way Ennis thought Jack would drive up to see him and expect to move in! He just wanted to share his troubles with his closest friend.

Oh, no, I didn't mean that's why Ennis did it. No, Ennis did not expect that. Sorry, I should have been more clear. I meant, that's why it's in the movie.

Offline Penthesilea

  • Town Administration
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 14,745
Re: Why does Ennis....
« Reply #41 on: January 13, 2007, 06:17:38 pm »
Oh, no, I didn't mean that's why Ennis did it. No, Ennis did not expect that. Sorry, I should have been more clear. I meant, that's why it's in the movie.


Ah, thanks for explaining this. I understood it in the same way Mark did and was about to write a kind of  :o :o :o answer when I saw your following post  :).

Offline Penthesilea

  • Town Administration
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 14,745
Re: Why does Ennis....
« Reply #42 on: January 13, 2007, 06:35:12 pm »
Quote
From Katherine:
But I don't see Ennis as someone who would get into other people's business or punish them for perceived misdeeds, let alone kill them. His threat to Jack about Mexico notwithstanding -- I don't think he really meant that sincerely. So even if he thought Earl was wrong, I don't think he considered the murder justifiab

Yes, that's exactly the way I see it. Just wondered why you put the word "possible" [exception] into your earlier post.

Quote
Quote
Quote from: goadra on Today at 08:39:38 AM
Because Cassie has just slapped him with the knowledge that she fell in love with him. He didn’t mean for that to happen. Going against the majority opinion, but...I don’t think this moment is the earth- (Ennis-) shattering realization that Jack fell in love with him.

I wonder what the majority DOES think. Personally, I'm more in the "he was realizing something about Jack" (either that Jack loved him or that he loved Jack) camp. Anyone else care to weigh in?

I think he realizes about how much he hurt Cassie earlier, during his conversation with her. "I'm sorry" - and he means it.
After Cassie left I think he thinks about Jack, and the word 'love', spoken by Cassie a few moments earlier. He draws the connection between Jack and love.
But: I think it's not the first time he draws a connection between Jack and love. I think he knew it before. But the possibility to phrase it that clear simple is new to him. Hope that makes sense.


I lost track of who is to ask a new question  ::).

Offline serious crayons

  • Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,769
Re: Why does Ennis....
« Reply #43 on: January 13, 2007, 07:04:12 pm »
Yes, that's exactly the way I see it. Just wondered why you put the word "possible" [exception] into your earlier post.

Well, when I wrote,

he sees everything his father did and said (with the possible exception of the actual murder, which is unclear), as a legitimate and correct reflection of right and wrong.

I didn't express it very clearly. I would guess he's in less than full agreement with his father's actions (assuming his father done the job). Knowing Ennis from the rest of the movie, I don't believe he would think it's OK to kill someone. So from there, I would gather he does not believe that was an appropriate way to deal with Earl's transgression. So he doesn't think it's a legitimate and correct response to right and wrong. Still, it's hard to tell exactly how much he condemns his father for it. I get the feeling he sees it as slightly more justifiable than some random murder, for other reasons, might be
.

Offline Front-Ranger

  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 30,332
  • Brokeback got us good.
Re: Why does Ennis....
« Reply #44 on: February 06, 2009, 12:25:57 pm »
I was just thinking this today, and bingo, I found it in BetterMost where all things BBM are cached!!

Little boys just naturally want to be like their fathers. They are the only role models they know. Growing from a boy to a man involves becoming your own role model and just choosing the parts of your father that you want to adopt or perpetuate. That was what Ennis was doing when he admiringly spoke of his father sometimes and other times with disgust.
"chewing gum and duct tape"