Jack and Alma

[Brown Eyes]

So, I just rewatched my DVD tonight and got to thinking about a subject that's been discussed once in a while on the big board.  I'm increasingly noticing Jack's competitiveness with Alma.  In the "prayer of thanks" campfire scene when Jack says "you and Alma, that's a life?" and Ennis defends Alma, there's this incredible exchange of intense gazes between Jack and Ennis.  And, just tonight I noticed that when Jack and Ennis are about to leave the apartment after Ennis has introduced Jack to Alma, as Jack is backing out the door he looks up and seems to lock eyes with Alma for a second.  I feel like once Jack is back on the scene in Ennis's life he's determined from this new beginning to "stake his claim" with Ennis.

Not only was Jack first to make love to Ennis (based on the "opportunity" conversation, we glean that Alma and Ennis were *innocently* engaged), on Brokeback they had already set up their version of domestic happiness.  The fact that we see Jack washing Ennis's clothes (then mirrored later by Alma washing clothes in the sink) and Jack and Ennis cooking for each other, and taking care of each other must make it seem from Jack's point of view that Alma is the usurper. It's interesting that he's so eager to propose to Ennis that they live together again.  And, it's amazing how self-aware Jack is throughout the film.  He recognizes through to the end ("all we've got now is Brokeback mountain, everything's built on that") that they were only ever truly content when they were living together.

Alma clearly feels the rivalry right away too.  And, much of the rest of her story seems to show Alma gradually acquiescing to the rival.  It's interesting because Ennis doesn't seem to feel jealousy or competitiveness when it comes to women and Jack, only when he imagines Jack with other men.

[bbm_stitchbuffyfan]

Ennis, I think, does not get jealous when Jack is with other women because he knows that Jack is gay and that women, for these two men, are merely conveniences and used to hide their true sexual orientations (society expected them to marry women). He knows Jack doesn't care about Lureen or the rancher's wife.

I have heard your theory before and I remember Jack saying "You and Alma, that's a life?" I guess the timing must be right or else the way you presented it just made it click; as I read your post, I really liked your take on that. Ennis may have met and dated Alma before he met Jack but Jack and Ennis built their domesticity together before Ennis did so with Alma. I like the idea that Jack saw Alma as competition... It's romantic.

[RouxB]

I don't see that Jack in competition with Alma per se, I think he is in competion who/whatever Ennis is putting ahead of him. The scene with Alma during the reunion scene was just Jack being a bundle of nerves-I didn't detect any type of hostility. I think the only thing he was thinking about was getting out of there with Ennis to continue the re-union.

 

[juneaux]

So, I just rewatched my DVD tonight and got to thinking about a subject that's been discussed once in a while on the big board.  I'm increasingly noticing Jack's competitiveness with Alma.  In the "prayer of thanks" campfire scene when Jack says "you and Alma, that's a life?" and Ennis defends Alma, there's this incredible exchange of intense gazes between Jack and Ennis.  And, just tonight I noticed that when Jack and Ennis are about to leave the apartment after Ennis has introduced Jack to Alma, as Jack is backing out the door he looks up and seems to lock eyes with Alma for a second.  I feel like once Jack is back on the scene in Ennis's life he's determined from this new beginning to "stake his claim" with Ennis.

Not only was Jack first to make love to Ennis (based on the "opportunity" conversation, we glean that Alma and Ennis were *innocently* engaged), on Brokeback they had already set up their version of domestic happiness.  The fact that we see Jack washing Ennis's clothes (then mirrored later by Alma washing clothes in the sink) and Jack and Ennis cooking for each other, and taking care of each other must make it seem from Jack's point of view that Alma is the usurper. It's interesting that he's so eager to propose to Ennis that they live together again.  And, it's amazing how self-aware Jack is throughout the film.  He recognizes through to the end ("all we've got now is Brokeback mountain, everything's built on that") that they were only ever truly content when they were living together.

Alma clearly feels the rivalry right away too.  And, much of the rest of her story seems to show Alma gradually acquiescing to the rival.  It's interesting because Ennis doesn't seem to feel jealousy or competitiveness when it comes to women and Jack, only when he imagines Jack with other men.

Very interesting point as I never thought of Alma as Jack's rival.  (I don't get out much.)  Your observation adds weight to the scene where Jack drives to Wyoming after learning of Ennis' divorce.  Not only could he be happy about the idea of having a life with Ennis, with this new discussion it could be the elation that comes with a victory or winning.  This also adds to the contrast when Ennis corrects Jack's assumption and the devastation sends him to seek solace in Mexico.


As if I needed *another* topic about which to think...

[bbm_stitchbuffyfan]

I did like watching Jack and Alma together on screen, just because their characters had such an interesting connection to each other (Ennis). Maybe I subconsciously noticed a slight degree of competition because I remember enjoying Jack interacting with Alma. It was just interesting to see those two sides of Ennis' life collide.

I also liked when Ennis talked to Lureen. Of course, that scene was absolutely mind-blowing and devastating but behind that, I have wondered about what Lureen and Ennis meeting would be like, and hearing them meet each other, over the phone, was so interesting (and depressing as well).

I am *not* speaking romantically here but I think Ennis/Lureen and Jack/Alma are more interesting than Ennis/Alma and Jack/Lureen, just to watch on screen...

[Brown Eyes]

Heya bbm_stitchbuffyfan,
I agree about the dynamics between Ennis/Lureen and Jack/Alma.  The phone scene between Ennis and Lureen is a bit like Alma seeing Jack and Ennis kiss.  It's an equivalent epiphany moment for Lureen (doubly heartbreaking for her, realizing that she's talking to Jack's *true* love on the phone while still being in a state of grief herself.  Whatever the state of her relaionship was with Jack, I'm sure she was grieving for Jack in her own way too).

On Alma's competitiveness...  Clearly she lets loose with this sense of anger and rivalry in the Thanksgiving scene when she tells Ennis what she knows about him and calls Jack "Jack Nasty."  I've always wondered if Ennis's extreme/ violent reaction here has a tiny bit to do with him being upset that Alma insults Jack.  I know the main reason for his anger, definitely is over being 'outed.'  But, still I really do wonder if the 'nasty' insult ruffled his feathers even more.

[bbm_stitchbuffyfan]

Hey atz,

You see, I *always* associate Ennis' anger at the Thanksgiving scene with Jack. I know he's really uncomfortable and scared that Alma knows but watch how Ennis responds when she first says "Jack Twist..." and then caps off with "Jack Nasty." I think Ennis was not only trying to stick up for himself in that scene but also Jack.

I'm glad you also see the dynamics of Ennis/Lureen and Jack/Alma. I watched the DVD last night and looked for the expression. Was it after he said something along the lines of "Pleased to meet you, ma'am?" I bet there was a bit of animosity there.

[Brown Eyes]

I watched the DVD last night and looked for the expression. Was it after he said something along the lines of "Pleased to meet you, ma'am?" I bet there was a bit of animosity there.

Hi there,
Yes, it's really the very last moment before Jack backs out the door.  It is after he says "Pleased to meet you".  Maybe I'm reading way too much into it.  But, to me he seems to look at Alma in an intense way for just a second or two.  It reminds me of the intense look on his face in the "prayer of thanks" campfire chat when Jack says "you and Alma that's a life?" And Ennis replies by saying that the situation isn't Alma's fault.  Jack looks at Ennis there in a pretty intense way there too.  I chalk all of this up to a bit of competitiveness.

[serious crayons]

Hey, Bud! Good to see you -- it's been a while, for some reason, and I'd begun to wonder why our paths hadn't crossed lately. Now, as usual, you have drawn me in with an intriguing thread.

In fact, I just referred earlier tonight to the Jack/Alma rivalry on a thread called (I just looked it up; I've been posting so promiscuously lately I couldn't remember off the top of my head) "Interesting post from the imdb board," on CT. This was in connection to something later -- the idea that Jack may have felt jealous of Cassie, even though Ennis clearly wasn't very concerned about Jack's fling with "the rancher's wife." I think this difference is also illustrated by Jack/Alma (tension) vs. Ennis/Lureen (little or no tension). Ennis doesn't care about Jack's male/female relationships, but Jack does.

I agree that Jack is staking his claim with Ennis back on Brokeback, with the laundry being the metaphor. Ennis, for his part, seems oblivious (just as, later, he seems OK with Jack's fling with the rancher's wife). In the reunion meeting between Jack and Alma, Ennis seems too happy and excited about Jack's presence to notice any undercurrents. In the "now you leave Alma out of this" he's just being fair and chivalrous and -- YES! -- Jack's look is very intense and I've always wondered what that was about! I think your idea that it's the rivalry emerging is exactly right.

I also am enlightened by your take on the Thanksgiving scene. I always interpreted it purely as Ennis being angry at being outed but, you're right, the "Jack Nasty" remark must have stung as well.

[Brown Eyes]

Heya Friend,
Thanks for giving me the heads-up about the "Interesting post..." thread.

I'm beginning to feel that Jack was jealous of anyone/ anything that kept Ennis away (a little selfish but also probably pretty understandable).  And, I do think that the "Jack Nasty" comment was very insulting to Ennis (and caused him to also feel protective of Jack).  A judgment on Jack reflects back on Ennis and his own taste (taste in men, lovers, etc.).  He's also proud of Jack I think.  He's proud especially in the reunion scene when he introduces Jack to Alma.  Ennis is just beaming and seems pleased as punch by Jack's witty little "smiles a lot" comment. 

[serious crayons]

Yes, it's so cute the way Ennis glances over at Alma when Jack says "smiles a lot," as if expecting her to share in his delight. Little does he know!

Early on, I think Ennis cares a lot about both Alma and Jack -- well, more intensely about Jack obviously, but in a loyal friendly way about Alma. He doesn't like it when either of them disses the other. Not being jealous of Lureen, he doesn't pick up on the tension between them.

[ednbarby]

I watched the DVD last night and looked for the expression. Was it after he said something along the lines of "Pleased to meet you, ma'am?" I bet there was a bit of animosity there.

Hi there,
Yes, it's really the very last moment before Jack backs out the door.  It is after he says "Pleased to meet you".  Maybe I'm reading way too much into it.  But, to me he seems to look at Alma in an intense way for just a second or two.  It reminds me of the intense look on his face in the "prayer of thanks" campfire chat when Jack says "you and Alma that's a life?" And Ennis replies by saying that the situation isn't Alma's fault.  Jack looks at Ennis there in a pretty intense way there too.  I chalk all of this up to a bit of competitiveness.

Amanda, I've totally noticed that expression right where you describe it.  Thought it was just me - glad to know I have a partner in crime, at least, on that one.  I think you're right on with that observation.  And allow me to seize yet another opportunity to say Damn, he's good.

[Rayn]

Well, I gotta have some say here too, I guess, since I have some strong feelings about it.

     I don't think Jack was competition to Alma or vice versa.  Competition is about "winning and losing".  Jack wasn't so much competition as he was a threat that Alma could not defeat. That was something far more frightening to Alma.  In those days, the 1960s, and in Alma's background, there was nothing to prepare her for what she encountered with Ennis and Jack.  She could not compete with Jack because he was a man.  That's why she was so stunned when she saw them kissing in the stairway.

     I will tell you why I feel this way too.  As a very young man, I was engaged to a good woman.  I ended it because I knew I couldn't put her through the "facade of a marriage", a marriage of convention but not of love.  When we broke up, she asked me if I had met another woman.  I told her no, I hadn't met another "woman".  I watched her mind processing this information, she then asked, "Is it "GUYS"?!  "Yes", I said, "It's guys."   She was dumbfounded, and after a moment of thought said, "Well, if it were another woman, I could do something about it maybe, but if it's guys then there's nothing I can do!" 

     I think this was a big part of what Alma was having to deal with; something she could hardly comprehend and could never compete with, the threat of losing Ennis to the love of a man was all too much for her.  And yes, jealousy, feelings of competition were there too, but the deeper feelings of frustration, powerlessness and hopelessness in the face of something almost unimaginable were what ended her marriage to Ennis.   

     I felt sad and concerned for Alma and, the first time I saw the movie, I felt her pain and cried with her because she really loved Ennis, but I also felt for Jack.  You know in the book, Jack was not looking at Alma with any competitiveness; he was really scared when they met, so scared his legs were shaking, but I think he knew Ennis was "his man" too.

     Consider Jack for a second.  I think he set his sights on Ennis from the moment they met.  Jack was intensely interested in Ennis and he led the way, most of the time in the relationship.  From watching Ennis in the rearview mirror as he shaved when first meeting, to leading the way to the bar to drink beer after they got the jobs, from initiating sex in the tent and encouraging Ennis the next night, then roping Ennis the final day and saying "Time to go, cowboy." and finally sending him the postcard to reunite, Jack knows he wants Ennis and Jack doesn't have a problem with that.  Ennis does.   Jack was true to his feelings for Ennis from beginning to end and if things had been different, in another time and place, Jack probably would have convinced Ennis to live with him.  They might have had a life.

     There was just too much to overcome back in those days and there was also the significant problems that Ennis had personally that were too big for both of them.  It is a sad, but a very true to life story for those days.   In the end though, there was no one and nothing stronger in Ennis' life or Jack's than what they had together and though it wasn’t ideal or easy, it was awesome.

That's my take on it.

Peace,
Rayn

[Front-Ranger]

Verr' good posts, Rayn, atz and everybody. Your insight helped me understand a scene that has always puzzled me--when Ennis comes back the next morning to get his toothbrush et. al. to take off camping with Jack, Alma, instead of engaging Ennis in discussion, walks over to the window and looks out at Jack below leaning against his truck. It's like she and Jack are now involved in a kind of tug of war, and she realizes she's losing. Ennis thinks Alma and Jack can coexist in his life, but Jack doesn't.

[starboardlight]

Heya bbm_stitchbuffyfan,
I agree about the dynamics between Ennis/Lureen and Jack/Alma.  The phone scene between Ennis and Lureen is a bit like Alma seeing Jack and Ennis kiss.  It's an equivalent epiphany moment for Lureen (doubly heartbreaking for her, realizing that she's talking to Jack's *true* love on the phone while still being in a state of grief herself.  Whatever the state of her relaionship was with Jack, I'm sure she was grieving for Jack in her own way too).

On Alma's competitiveness...  Clearly she lets loose with this sense of anger and rivalry in the Thanksgiving scene when she tells Ennis what she knows about him and calls Jack "Jack Nasty."  I've always wondered if Ennis's extreme/ violent reaction here has a tiny bit to do with him being upset that Alma insults Jack.  I know the main reason for his anger, definitely is over being 'outed.'  But, still I really do wonder if the 'nasty' insult ruffled his feathers even more.

I certainly think that Alma said "Jack Nasty!" to ruffle his feathers. Obviously what ever it was that made Jack nasty, Ennis was participating. Why was Jack the one that's getting insulted and not Ennis as well? I agree that the particular name calling showed her resentment toward Ennis, but also her competitive resentment toward Jack.

[starboardlight]

You know in the book, Jack was not looking at Alma with any competitiveness; he was really scared when they met, so scared his legs were shaking, but I think he knew Ennis was "his man" too.

hm, that not how I read that part in the book. My interpretation was that Jack was shaking because he was so excited to about that kiss. I didn't read anything about being scared to meet Alma.

[serious crayons]

You know in the book, Jack was not looking at Alma with any competitiveness; he was really scared when they met, so scared his legs were shaking, but I think he knew Ennis was "his man" too.

hm, that not how I read that part in the book. My interpretation was that Jack was shaking because he was so excited to about that kiss. I didn't read anything about being scared to meet Alma.

Me too. I was just about to say that.

[ednbarby]

I certainly think that Alma said "Jack Nasty!" to ruffle his feathers. Obviously what ever it was that made Jack nasty, Ennis was participating. Why was Jack the one that's getting insulted and not Ennis as well? I agree that the particular name calling showed her resentment toward Ennis, but also her competitive resentment toward Jack.

Isn't this always the way, though?  When a woman finds out her husband has been cheating with another woman, it's always, "Why, that BITCH!" more than (or even instead of) "That BASTARD!"  Me, I'd be in the latter camp.  To me, the thought of my husband having sex with someone else isn't nearly as unsettling is the thought of him lying to my face.  But with most women, it's about "What has she/he got that I haven't got?"  When you find your husband is cheating with a man, you know what he's got that you haven't.   Honestly, again, it would be the deceit and not the sex that would enrage me the most.

[Brown Eyes]

Well, an insult to Jack is an insult to Ennis... If nothing else, it reflects back on his own taste, selection of a lover, etc.  And, the word "nasty" can be heard in a pretty homophobic way too.

[ednbarby]

Well, an insult to Jack is an insult to Ennis... If nothing else, it reflects back on his own taste, selection of a lover, etc.  And, the word "nasty" can be heard in a pretty homophobic way too.

Good points.  And I hear "nasty" as being said with a good deal of homophobia, myself.

[serious crayons]

Well, an insult to Jack is an insult to Ennis... If nothing else, it reflects back on his own taste, selection of a lover, etc.  And, the word "nasty" can be heard in a pretty homophobic way too.

Good points.  And I hear "nasty" as being said with a good deal of homophobia, myself.

Agreed, and I don't think you have to strain to hear it. Alma's whole speech seems implicitly homophobic. She's not just accusing Ennis of being unfaithful. If she thought he was with another woman, her tone would have been less spiteful.

[TJ]

Well, an insult to Jack is an insult to Ennis... If nothing else, it reflects back on his own taste, selection of a lover, etc.  And, the word "nasty" can be heard in a pretty homophobic way too.

Good points.  And I hear "nasty" as being said with a good deal of homophobia, myself.

Agreed, and I don't think you have to strain to hear it. Alma's whole speech seems implicitly homophobic. She's not just accusing Ennis of being unfaithful. If she thought he was with another woman, her tone would have been less spiteful.

I see Alma's point of view about Ennis's relationship with Jack a little differently than many folks. And, I prefer to let Annie Proulx's words influence my thinking here. I somehow feel that Alma was naive when it come to men having sexual relationships.

Back in 1967, when Ennis was kissing Jack on the upstairs landing and Alma opened the door slightly, all she was was Ennis's straining shoulders when they were hugging. They were too close to the door for her to see them kissing. When she open the door the second time, they were standing side by side. Jack's seeing Alma made him VERY nervous so much that he shook.

I also think that she could have believed the reason that they did not come home that night was that they picked up some gals at a Riverton bar and took them somewhere to have sex with them. That was not uncommon back in 1967 for good buddy and/or cowboy types who went to bars to do that thing and such stuff still goes on in more recent years.

Ennis had those feelings that everyone who looked at him after his experiences with Jack up on Brokeback Mountain in 1963 that everyone just knew he had sex with guys and wanted to have sex with them, too.

When Alma said, "Jack Twist, Jack Nasty," I just believe that she was accusing Ennis and Jack committing adultery with women.

In the book, the only time that Alma even sees Jack is when he shows up late in the afternoon in Riverton on June 24, 1967. She does not even see him again, not even the next day.

So, I don't even think that Alma is being homophobic in the after the divorce Thanksgiving incident. I just say that Ennis jumped to conclusions about what Alma meant in the first place. (I also say that Ennis jumped to conclusions when Jack mentioned going to Mexico as a warmer meeting place 16 years later at the last time the guys were together. Jack had NEVER been there in the first place.)

Oh, when Ennis leaves Alma's place in Riverton in the story, he goes to the Black and Blue Eagle bar and gets into a fight AFTER he gets drunk.

[starboardlight]

Oh, when Ennis leaves Alma's place in Riverton in the story, he goes to the Black and Blue Eagle bar and gets into a fight AFTER he gets drunk.

ironically, Black and Blue is a very gay bar phrase meaning leather and jeans scene.

[TJ]

Oh, when Ennis leaves Alma's place in Riverton in the story, he goes to the Black and Blue Eagle bar and gets into a fight AFTER he gets drunk.

ironically, Black and Blue is a very gay bar phrase meaning leather and jeans scene.

And, "black and blue" is how a person, no matter what his sexual orientation, looks AFTER he has been beaten up or had some kind of injury.  I don't think that Annie Proux was thinking of a gay bar in the story.

[Rayn]

You know in the book, Jack was not looking at Alma with any competitiveness; he was really scared when they met, so scared his legs were shaking, but I think he knew Ennis was "his man" too.

hm, that not how I read that part in the book. My interpretation was that Jack was shaking because he was so excited to about that kiss. I didn't read anything about being scared to meet Alma.

OK, I went back and read that part of the story, and found I was mistaken.  It's not only Jack's legs that are shaking, it's his entire body.  In fact it says,

"You got a kid?"  said Jack.  His shaking hand grazed Ennis's hand, electrical current snapped between them. "Two little girls." Ennis said.  "Alma Jr. and Francine.  Love them to pieces."  Alma's mouth twitched. "I got a boy,"  said Jack.  "Eight months old.  Tell you what, I married a cute little old Texas girl down in Childress-- Lureen."  From the vibration of the floorboard on which they both stood Ennis could feel how hard Jack was shaking. "Alma," he said.  "Jack and me is goin out and get a drink.  Might not get back tonight, we get drinkin and talkin."   "Sure enough."  Alma said, taking a dollar bill from her pocket.  Ennis guessed she was going to ask him to get her a pack of cigarettes, bring him back sooner. "Please to meet you," said Jack, trembling like a run-out horse."

Now a run-out horse isn't a "positive" thing.  Worn-out and trembling from fatique isn't a good feeling.  And I don't see how a person's body shaking from head to boot can be a good thing.   I believe that's why Ennis notices this and gets them out of there quickly.  I will admit that it's possible that with the fear of meeting Alma, Jack is also feeling the excitement and urgency of meeting Ennis again; I'll go that far, but there clearly is a great deal of nervous fear in Jack as well. 

If you wanted read it for yourself, it's on page 266 in "Close Range", Annie's collection of short stories.

Rayn

[Aussie Chris]

Now a run-out horse isn't a "positive" thing.  Worn-out and trembling from fatique isn't a good feeling.  And I don't see how a person's body shaking from head to boot can be a good thing.   I believe that's why Ennis notices this and gets them out of there quickly.  I will admit that it's possible that with the fear of meeting Alma, Jack is also feeling the excitement and urgency of meeting Ennis again; I'll go that far, but there clearly is a great deal of nervous fear in Jack as well. 

Well I've always taken Jack's shaking to be because he's just had the most electrying, passsionate, knock your socks off, check your chubby, and swoon-worthy kiss of his life.  In my mind, that's about as good a thing as you get!

[starboardlight]

Oh, when Ennis leaves Alma's place in Riverton in the story, he goes to the Black and Blue Eagle bar and gets into a fight AFTER he gets drunk.

ironically, Black and Blue is a very gay bar phrase meaning leather and jeans scene.

And, "black and blue" is how a person, no matter what his sexual orientation, looks AFTER he has been beaten up or had some kind of injury.  I don't think that Annie Proux was thinking of a gay bar in the story.

no, i'm sure she didn't. it's just that in this post-modern age, how the audience reads the text is as important as what the author intends. I just find it interesting. that as he's running away from an accusation of being gay, he's running to a bar with reference to gay culture.

[serious crayons]

Well I've always taken Jack's shaking to be because he's just had the most electrying, passsionate, knock your socks off, check your chubby, and swoon-worthy kiss of his life.  In my mind, that's about as good a thing as you get!

I agree with this interpretation. And very well expressed, Chris! But what does "check your chubby" mean?

[Aussie Chris]

I agree with this interpretation. And very well expressed, Chris! But what does "check your chubby" mean?

hehe, it means that I think Jack and Ennis might have been (ehem) visibly pleased to see each other...

...is that a gun in your pocket Jack or...

[serious crayons]

That's what I figured. Is it an Australian phrase, or am I just living a sheltered life?

[Aussie Chris]

That's what I figured. Is it an Australian phrase, or am I just living a sheltered life?

Nope, not Australian, sheltered life I think.  Off the top of my head, Bill and Ted said it in Bogus Journey.

[Rayn]

Now a run-out horse isn't a "positive" thing.  Worn-out and trembling from fatique isn't a good feeling.  And I don't see how a person's body shaking from head to boot can be a good thing.   I believe that's why Ennis notices this and gets them out of there quickly.  I will admit that it's possible that with the fear of meeting Alma, Jack is also feeling the excitement and urgency of meeting Ennis again; I'll go that far, but there clearly is a great deal of nervous fear in Jack as well. 

Well I've always taken Jack's shaking to be because he's just had the most electrying, passsionate, knock your socks off, check your chubby, and swoon-worthy kiss of his life.  In my mind, that's about as good a thing as you get!

Well, if I put myself in Jack's boots and imagine how I might feel in that situation, I'd be overjoyed to see & kiss Ennis and nervous and scared to meet Alma.... and I would feel double the fear if I were sportin' a woody in my wrangler jeans to match her husband's. 

Come on guys, these men are trying to hide what they feel.  Why?  Because of the fear of being discovered.   Jack won't even go into the house to have coffee the next morning.  Do you think that's because he' s relaxed, comfortable and fearless about the situation?   

It's actually rude of him not to spend a little more time with Alma.  I mean, he's taking her husband from her for days, but the combination of urgency, fear and discomfort around Alma is greater than any need for "proper" manners. 

I don't think what I'm saying can be overlooked without missing some human truth about feelings there, but if that's what you wanna do, then all I can do is agree to disagree...

Peace,
Rayn

[starboardlight]

Now a run-out horse isn't a "positive" thing.  Worn-out and trembling from fatique isn't a good feeling.  And I don't see how a person's body shaking from head to boot can be a good thing.   I believe that's why Ennis notices this and gets them out of there quickly.  I will admit that it's possible that with the fear of meeting Alma, Jack is also feeling the excitement and urgency of meeting Ennis again; I'll go that far, but there clearly is a great deal of nervous fear in Jack as well. 

Well I've always taken Jack's shaking to be because he's just had the most electrying, passsionate, knock your socks off, check your chubby, and swoon-worthy kiss of his life.  In my mind, that's about as good a thing as you get!

Well, if I put myself in Jack's boots and imagine how I might feel in that situation, I'd be overjoyed to see & kiss Ennis and nervous and scared to meet Alma.... and I would feel double the fear if I were sportin' a woody in my wrangler jeans to match her husband's. 

Come on guys, these men are trying to hide what they feel.  Why?  Because of the fear of being discovered.   Jack won't even go into the house to have coffee the next morning.  Do you think that's because he' s relaxed, comfortable and fearless about the situation?   

It's actually rude of him not to spend a little more time with Alma.  I mean, he's taking her husband from her for days, but the combination of urgency, fear and discomfort around Alma is greater than any need for "proper" manners. 

I don't think what I'm saying can be overlooked without missing some human truth about feelings there, but if that's what you wanna do, then all I can do is agree to disagree...

Peace,
Rayn

I see your point Rayn. I do think that nervousness is there. It's visible in Jake's portrayal, I think. But I think we were trying to figure out his shaking. While Jack might have been scared to meet Alma, I do think that it's his excitement to see Ennis that is dominant in him. To me the shaking comes from the electricity running through him from that kiss, not from being scared.

[RouxB]

Funny-I have never interpreted the shaking to mean anything other than excitement from the reunion with Ennis. "Run out horse" does not have a negative connotation to me-just a description of the trembling. Jack had no interest in anything or anyone but Ennis.

 

[Rayn]

Some of us are looking at the story and the movie at the same time, in case anyone is wondering.  Brokeback Mt. is both to me.  If you wanna talk only about one or the other, let us know.

"Trembling like a run-out horse" means like a "worn out horse"... it's also like tired-out or exhausted.  If you know horses, have ridden them a lot and taken care of them, you know it's not a positive thing... just ask any horse and if you don't believe the horse, ask Annie. 
Being around horses, she knows; so do I. 

There are some things that aren't open to interpretation, like definitions of words and common knowledge, you know?  I guess knowledge of horses isn't all that common.

Yours truly,
Rayn

[TJ]

In the book, when the description of Jack's body language is given, Jack is not in the apartment at all and he is standing side by side with Ennis when Alma opens the door wider the 2nd time.

Ennis did not go down to the ground level when Jack arrived; Jack ran up the stairs, two and two, to the upstairs landing where Ennis was standing.

In the book, there is no detail as to what happened when they went back to Ennis's place to get his stuff and they go camping for a few days. Ennis calls Alma from the rented room in the Motel Siesta to tell her what he is going to do and then there is a triple-line spacing after that paragraph to show that what is in the next paragraph happens later.

The next paragraph has Alma working for the Riverton grocer. After Ennis and Alma moved to Riverton, he worked on the highway on weekdays and on weekends, he worked at a ranch to pay for the keep of his horses. (The movie has Ennis working for the highway department before they move to town.)

I really believe that Jack Twist really did not want to meet Alma in the first place. That's why he was so nervous when he saw her after she opened the door a 2nd time. If she had not opened the door the 2nd time, I just think that Jack would have been told to go back down to his truck and wait for Ennis, or Ennis might have just opened the door and got his hat and said, "Alma, see you later."

The movie has Ennis drinking several longnecks (that's beer in bottles) during the day before Jack arrives. But, according to Annie Proulx, there is no consumption of alcohol in the apartment that day. And, even after the guys get a bottle on the way to the motel, they are making out in the motel room 20 minutes after they leave Alma behind.

[Rayn]

In the book, when the description of Jack's body language is given, Jack is not in the apartment at all and he is standing side by side with Ennis when Alma opens the door wider the 2nd time. Ennis did not go down to the ground level when Jack arrived; Jack ran up the stairs, two and two, to the upstairs landing where Ennis was standing. .....That's why he was so nervous when he saw her after she opened the door a 2nd time. If she had not opened the door the 2nd time, I just think that Jack would have been told to go back down to his truck and wait for Ennis, or Ennis might have just opened the door and got his hat and said, "Alma, see you later."

That's right and thanks for the clarification TJ. 

Thanks also for the acknowledgement that Jack is real nervous in the situation.  However, all of us are getting Off Topic. It's so easy to do and fun too!   Huh...?  LOL   I think the topic we were talking about is the possibility of competitiveness between Jack and Alma.  Weren't we?

Who out there knows? Please guide us back!

Peace,
Rayn

[Brown Eyes]

I think the topic we were talking about is the possibility of competitiveness between Jack and Alma.  Weren't we?

Who out there knows? Please guide us back!

Peace,
Rayn

Hi Rayn,
Yup, when I originally started this topic it was to consider the possible competitiveness between Jack and Alma.  Thanks for all the interesting thoughts!

[TJ]

That's right and thanks for the clarification TJ. 

Thanks also for the acknowledgement that Jack is real nervous in the situation.  However, all of us are getting Off Topic. It's so easy to do and fun too!   Huh...?  LOL   I think the topic we were talking about is the possibility of competitiveness between Jack and Alma.  Weren't we?

Who out there knows? Please guide us back!

Peace,
Rayn

Hi Rayn,
Yup, when I originally started this topic it was to consider the possible competitiveness between Jack and Alma.  Thanks for all the interesting thoughts!

I think that such competitiveness between the two would more than likely been coincidental.

In my closeted days in the latter half of the 1970s when I was a graduate theology student at Oral Roberts University in Tulsa, I had a non-sexual good-buddy relationship with an over 25 year old undergraduate student who was also married. (I didn't leave the closet until 1984.) I think Gary's wife was jealous of our relationship. While I never kissed him, neither of us had a problem hugging each other in public. After I had dropped out of school, we had known each other for 5 semesters, and had been out of state a couple of months, I called his home number and let him know that I was back in town at my folks. He drove over in his pick-up  truck and we hugged right in the driveway between our house and the neighbors'. And anyone driving by could have seen that, too.

Actually, Gary gave the reason for us to stop seeing each other as much after I was out of school that it was due to his wife's health and she was no longer comfortable with my presence, she had also had a baby. Gary and I never did anything that would be kept a secret or that we would be ashamed of anyone knowing.

Many right-wing Bible-thumpers claimed that Ennis committed adultery with Jack and that was cheating on Alma. But, I just feel that Alma, being a country girl, might have been really naive and assumed that Jack and Ennis were committing adultery alright, but it was with other women. Many married good-buddy types have done things together with women who were not their wives.

 

[korgriff]

WOW atz I it never even occured to me that the Jack Nasty comment would make Ennis want to defend Jack!!  I just thought that his reaction was because she had 'outed' him.  But now that you mention it - he loved Jack so her insulting him would automatically put him on the defensive!  Wow that never hit me.  This is why I love these boards!

I dont know if I think that Jack and Alma thought of each other as rivals.  I mean Jack knows that Ennis wants him and that Alma cant give him what Jack can, anatomicly speaking.  Which is why they never get jealous of other women  If there is any rivalry at all I have to agree that it is about the everyday stuff.  Like the cooking and washing clothes and generally just seeing each other.  I think if Jack was jealous of anything - it was that Alma got to see Ennis everyday and do the things for and with him that Jack wanted to do.

[Brown Eyes]

It's actually rude of him not to spend a little more time with Alma.  I mean, he's taking her husband from her for days, but the combination of urgency, fear and discomfort around Alma is greater than any need for "proper" manners. 

I just re-read this thread and it struck me that this is a particularly good observation.  Yes, it is pretty "rude" of Jack to avoid spending any time in the apartment.  But, I think it's Ennis who's orchestrating that part, especially the "morning after" the motel.  He can't even look Alma in the eye when he's running around packing.  It's only at the very end of his packing when he kisses Alma Jr. and finally Alma that he brings himself to look at her.

It's interesting that Alma really wants Jack to come inside for the morning coffee.  What is she expecting/ wanting to see happen if Jack actually did come in for breakfast?  Would she have confronted them?  I certainly doubt it.  Did she really want to have morning "small talk" with Jack and Ennis knowing what she knows just happened that night?  Really, why would she want Jack to come in and visit?  Michelle's facial expressions during this morning scene, I think, are some of her best moments.  Heartbreaking.  What an amazing contrast to Ennis's state of mind at this point (complete joy and relief mixed with lots of guilt re: Alma).  I love when Alma looks out the window and hears Jack and Ennis planning to go out for breakfast.  A great detail.

I wonder what Jack and Ennis dining at a restaurant together would look like.  There are lots of details like that, which I wish Lee would have let us see. 


Welcome korgriff!  Thanks for joining the thread. 
 
And, I think it is a good point about the daily things that Jack misses.  He's very well aware that they were happiest when they were living together on Brokeback in their kooky form of a domestic partnership (doing chores for each other, etc.).  He would give anything to get back to living like that again.  I think Ennis gets this too, but can't begin to imagine how it would really work.

[JfT]

Hi atz75. I too wonder what J&E at breakfast in a restaurant would look like.
Small talk, slight glances & "accidental" touching whilst passing the salt?
Lovely...

[Brown Eyes]

It's interesting that this reunion visit/ meeting between Jack and Ennis is the one where Ennis seems the least worried about people seeing him out and about with Jack.  He's probably so desperate to be with Jack at this juncture that he lets some of his anxieties fall by the wayside.  But, during this vist he's willing to take the risk of kissing Jack outside, of introducing him to Alma, of checking into a motel with him and of eating breakfast out at a restaurant with him.  That's a lot of out-ness for Ennis when we consider his behavior in later scene.  I mean, in the post-divorce heartbreaker... he doesn't even want the person in the white truck driving by to see him talking to Jack.  And, he seems unhappy that Jack asked "10 different people" where Ennis had moved.

Yes, I'm sure they were flirty and cute during their breakfast out. 
Welcome to BetterMost JfT

[TJ]

Hi atz75. I too wonder what J&E at breakfast in a restaurant would look like.
Small talk, slight glances & "accidental" touching whilst passing the salt?
Lovely...

Oh, that would not be too hard for me to imagine. The "small talk" could have some inside jokes or personal references in them that the other patrons in the restaurant or cafe would not even know what is going on.   

I can say BTDT when I ate at a neighborhood old-style restaurant not far from where I live with a basically closeted young man who ate there more often than I did. One of the cooks in that place knew that I was openly gay and that Kaland had lived with me, too. In another part of town when he lived with me, we went to Denney's a whole lot. 

[serious crayons]

It's interesting that this reunion visit/ meeting between Jack and Ennis is the one where Ennis seems the least worried about people seeing him out and about with Jack.  He's probably so desperate to be with Jack at this juncture that he lets some of his anxieties fall by the wayside.  But, during this vist he's willing to take the risk of kissing Jack outside, of introducing him to Alma, of checking into a motel with him and of eating breakfast out at a restaurant with him.  That's a lot of out-ness for Ennis when we consider his behavior in later scene.  I mean, in the post-divorce heartbreaker... he doesn't even want the person in the white truck driving by to see him talking to Jack.  And, he seems unhappy that Jack asked "10 different people" where Ennis had moved.

Yes, I think his uncharacteristic recklessness at the reunion is such a vivid demonstration of how much he missed Jack. He probably hadn't even dared to hope that he'd ever see him again, and is so overjoyed that his dreams have come true he can hardly believe it. (Though having his two lives come in contact with one another still does call for a lot of careful shirt-tucking.)

Post-divorce, I suppose he's probably even more paranoid than at any time when he was when married, now that people would have more reason to wonder about him.

And, yes, it would be fun to go to that breakfast. For that matter, if Ang had followed them around with a camera and filmed every minute they spent together over the entire 20 years (plus the two months on Brokeback), I would buy the 100-disk DVD set in a heartbeat.

[Brown Eyes]

(Though having his two lives come in contact with one another still does call for a lot of careful shirt-tucking.)



And, yes, it would be fun to go to that breakfast. For that matter, if Ang had followed them around with a camera and filmed every minute they spent together over the entire 20 years (plus the two months on Brokeback), I would buy the 100-disk DVD set in a heartbeat.

LOL, 

[korgriff]

Thanx atz
I also agree that I would LOVE to see more of them in candid moments, everyday things.  When they were herding those sheep I would watch their faces and movements just because it was everyday stuff and they were so cute!  That's when you see the little exchanged glances and stuff that just make the movie.

[starboardlight]

what do you make of the change in day time for the reunion kiss? in my reading. i get that it was dusk, with the sunlight waning. they were in near darkness, and so Ennis could feel at ease about whether anyone might see them. In the movie, it was full daylight, so it makes the kiss seem reckless. I suppose the romance in the recklessness is emphasized on film and I appreciate that.

[TJ]

In the movie's kiss scene, it is definitely daytime with an overcast sky.

But, in the book, it is a stormy late afternoon, thunder growling, and it is somewhat dark at the top of the stairs up to the apartment over the laundry when the guys kiss on the landing up there. The book mentions that when Alma opens the door the 2nd time, the guys are standing side-by-side with the backs of their hands touching, in the narrow light, which implies that she did not fully open the door all the way. The light comes from inside the apartment.

Because of the description of the scene in the book, I still stand by my opinion that Alma did not see them actually kissing and only hugging with Ennis's straining shoulders blocking most of the view since his back was very close to the door. It's one thing to see "fishin' buddies" hugging when they have not seen each other in 4 years; but, if they had been seen kissing by Alma or anyone else, that would have been a different matter.

In the movie, the view of the stairway steps up to the other apartment was actually blocked from view from the street. They could have filmed the scene with the guys up on the walkway in front of the apartment door as described in the book.

Slightly OT here, some of the movie's dialog which takes place in the mountains on the 2nd night of the Reunion is actually in the Motel Siesta on the first night.

[serious crayons]

what do you make of the change in day time for the reunion kiss? in my reading. i get that it was dusk, with the sunlight waning. they were in near darkness, and so Ennis could feel at ease about whether anyone might see them. In the movie, it was full daylight, so it makes the kiss seem reckless. I suppose the romance in the recklessness is emphasized on film and I appreciate that.

Me too, starboardlight. The most wonderful thing about that scene is its recklessnes, perhaps the only time Ennis could be described that way. Given Ennis' personality, it comes so close to unbelievable, but not quite -- which is why it is so amazing.

[Brown Eyes]

I totally agree with everyone that the daylight and the recklessness are important in the film reunion kiss.  It's still evening though... Ennis has had to wait ALL DAY (pacing in anticipation!!- he even had to take the day off from work!!) for Jack to arrive. 

[serious crayons]

It is such a phenomenal moment: so much anticipation, so much at stake. It's my second favorite five seconds -- after the turning piont in TS1 -- in the whole movie. Actually the reunion may go on for longer; maybe even 20 seconds. But never enough time, never enough! Twenty MINUTES would have been welcome.

[TJ]

In the way that Annie Proulx described the scene which had the reckless abandon involved with the kissing, it was almost like Ennis Del Mar could claim, "Well, Jack "Little Darlin'" started it. He ran up the steps, two and two, to where I was standing. I just could not help myself when we hugged and kissed each other simultaneously. We couldn't help it if we 'sucked face'. Besides, Jack bit my lip when he kissed me with his buckteeth."

It was dark in the book; but, since there was a thunderstorm going on, there were probably lightining flashes, too. And, since the book's apartment was over a laundry, it would also be possible that people on the street could have seen them kissing. The parking space where Jack parked his old green pickup could have been on the street on in a parking lot in front of the laundry.

With my understanding of the original story and the fact that both of them were so excited about seeing each other, if Ennis had not been married or if Alma had gone to "her sister's" with the girls - she had one in the movie), he would have not closed the apartment door and gotten Jack inside as quickly as possible and they would have been on the bed making out immediately.

[opinionista]

So, I just rewatched my DVD tonight and got to thinking about a subject that's been discussed once in a while on the big board.  I'm increasingly noticing Jack's competitiveness with Alma.  In the "prayer of thanks" campfire scene when Jack says "you and Alma, that's a life?" and Ennis defends Alma, there's this incredible exchange of intense gazes between Jack and Ennis.  And, just tonight I noticed that when Jack and Ennis are about to leave the apartment after Ennis has introduced Jack to Alma, as Jack is backing out the door he looks up and seems to lock eyes with Alma for a second.  I feel like once Jack is back on the scene in Ennis's life he's determined from this new beginning to "stake his claim" with Ennis.

Not only was Jack first to make love to Ennis (based on the "opportunity" conversation, we glean that Alma and Ennis were *innocently* engaged), on Brokeback they had already set up their version of domestic happiness.  The fact that we see Jack washing Ennis's clothes (then mirrored later by Alma washing clothes in the sink) and Jack and Ennis cooking for each other, and taking care of each other must make it seem from Jack's point of view that Alma is the usurper. It's interesting that he's so eager to propose to Ennis that they live together again.  And, it's amazing how self-aware Jack is throughout the film.  He recognizes through to the end ("all we've got now is Brokeback mountain, everything's built on that") that they were only ever truly content when they were living together.

Alma clearly feels the rivalry right away too.  And, much of the rest of her story seems to show Alma gradually acquiescing to the rival.  It's interesting because Ennis doesn't seem to feel jealousy or competitiveness when it comes to women and Jack, only when he imagines Jack with other men.

I just found this thread. I see is pretty old, so I apologize in advance if my response was already discussed. I think Ennis does not feel threatened by the women in Jack's life because he is sure about Jack's feelings for him. Jack, however, is not so sure about Ennis's feelings, because he keeps rejecting him and refuses to even consider having a life with him. Besides, Alma is living the life Jack wishes to have with Ennis, to a certain extent, of course. 

[Jane]

So, I just rewatched my DVD tonight and got to thinking about a subject that's been discussed once in a while on the big board.  I'm increasingly noticing Jack's competitiveness with Alma.  In the "prayer of thanks" campfire scene when Jack says "you and Alma, that's a life?" and Ennis defends Alma, there's this incredible exchange of intense gazes between Jack and Ennis.  And, just tonight I noticed that when Jack and Ennis are about to leave the apartment after Ennis has introduced Jack to Alma, as Jack is backing out the door he looks up and seems to lock eyes with Alma for a second.  I feel like once Jack is back on the scene in Ennis's life he's determined from this new beginning to "stake his claim" with Ennis.

Not only was Jack first to make love to Ennis (based on the "opportunity" conversation, we glean that Alma and Ennis were *innocently* engaged), on Brokeback they had already set up their version of domestic happiness.  The fact that we see Jack washing Ennis's clothes (then mirrored later by Alma washing clothes in the sink) and Jack and Ennis cooking for each other, and taking care of each other must make it seem from Jack's point of view that Alma is the usurper. It's interesting that he's so eager to propose to Ennis that they live together again.  And, it's amazing how self-aware Jack is throughout the film.  He recognizes through to the end ("all we've got now is Brokeback mountain, everything's built on that") that they were only ever truly content when they were living together.

Alma clearly feels the rivalry right away too.  And, much of the rest of her story seems to show Alma gradually acquiescing to the rival.  It's interesting because Ennis doesn't seem to feel jealousy or competitiveness when it comes to women and Jack, only when he imagines Jack with other men.

I,ve only just found this thread so please forgive me jumping in at this late stage.  I completly agree with you about Jack competing with Alma.  The look you mentioned as he backed out of the door of that apartment was as if he was saying, "back off he,s mine, dont you DARE touch him" . And your right about Ennis not being in the slightest  bit jealous of the thought of Jack with other women, only men.  Oh WHY couldnt they have found SOME way to work it out fgs. I know what time era it was and how difficult things were back then etc, but I get so SICK of unhappy endings all the time.  I do think that after 20 years, if anyone deserved to be happy after everything they,d been through it was Jack and Ennis.   

[Jane]

(And, yes, it would be fun to go to that breakfast. For that matter, if Ang had followed them around with a camera and filmed every minute they spent together over the entire 20 years (plus the two months on Brokeback), I would buy the 100-disk DVD set in a heartbeat.) end of quote.


Here here me too.  I loved all those moments getting to know each other, and just generally horsing around, so yeah, 100 disc dvd would be great.  Dont we wish.
 

[Brown Eyes]

Heya Jane and opinionista,

Thanks for reviving this thread!    Awww, it was one of the very first threads that I started once I had registered.

And, yes, it would be fun to go to that breakfast. For that matter, if Ang had followed them around with a camera and filmed every minute they spent together over the entire 20 years (plus the two months on Brokeback), I would buy the 100-disk DVD set in a heartbeat.) end of quote.

I know, it really would be nice to see more of the happy moments.  Lee is very cruel to us in this regard.  I'd buy that DVD set too.  Maybe Focus Features will here about this request some day and do something about it.
 

Anyway, back on topic.  I haven't re-read all of this tonight either... so I don't quite remember.  But have we resolved the issue as to why Alma is so anxious for Jack to come in and have coffee after the motel scene?  Seriously, what kind of small talk is she hoping to make?  I can't even imagine how awkward such a breakfast would be.  Poor Alma.  Poor Jack.  Poor Ennis.
 

The cut from the sweetness of the motel cuddling to Alma at her lonely breakfast table is just so hard to take.  Actually, the mood of the motel really shifts once Jack asks "what are we going to do now?"  I think some of the saddest lines of the movie are Ennis's reply to this.  "I doubt there's nothing we can do.  So I'm stuck with what I've got here."  What a sad and awful way to think about your life and it's amazing that he really can't envision options that would make living with Jack work.  I think these two sentences, though, are the ones that keep Jack hoping that Ennis might come around and find the courage to move-in with him.  These lines let Jack know exactly how much Ennis dislikes his life away from Jack.  It's like Ennis's statement after the Earl-flashback discussion where he tells Jack he wants to be with him for "as long as we can ride it". He's essentially telling Jack he wants their relationship to last forever (or as long as humanly possible).  So, I've always argued that this softens the blow of his rejection of the cow and calf operation idea.  But, I do think more and more that Ennis's motel statement about feeling "stuck" with his life in Riverton gave Jack the courage to propose the cow and calf operation to begin with.

[serious crayons]

Actually, the mood of the motel really shifts once Jack asks "what are we going to do now?"  I think some of the saddest lines of the movie are Ennis's reply to this.  "I doubt there's nothing we can do.  So I'm stuck with what I've got here."  What a sad and awful way to think about your life and it's amazing that he really can't envision options that would make living with Jack work.  I think these two sentences, though, are the ones that keep Jack hoping that Ennis might come around and find the courage to move-in with him.  These lines let Jack know exactly how much Ennis dislikes his life away from Jack.

I agree, and in view of this I've always thought it a bit unfair that, later, Ennis snaps at Jack when he says "You and Alma, that's a life?" I mean, it's nice that Ennis still cares enough about Alma to defend her, and it's true that it ain't her fault. And Jack's question wasn't the most tactfully worded. But Jack's long resentful/disappointed look in response to that seems somewhat justified, too.

On another topic, I know we've discussed this, possibly even on this thread, but whenever I watch now I am even more amazed by Jack's reaction to the first mention of Alma's name. Ennis says he's hoping to buy a ranch because "Me and Alma, we'll be getting married when I come down off the mountain." And Jack doesn't say one thing about it. No congratulations, or oh that's nice, or really how did ya meet. Just back to complaining about Aguirre's rules.

[Brown Eyes]

So, I'm reviving this thread again because I think I noticed another cool Jack/Alma detail tonight.  I'm back to clothing color here... In the reunion scene Jack is wearing a deep red shirt with a tan vest (and that pesky tan hat that always confuses me...) and Alma is wearing a reddish dress with a light tan cardigan sweater.  Jack's colors are far more saturated while Alma's colors are more diluted or receding.  This seems very significant for their one and only meeting.
 

[Bucky]

I too think there was a bit of a rivalry between Jack and Alma.  It was Jack's rivalry to begin with I think and Ennis kept telling Jack that he was going to marry Alma after he came down from the mountain.  During the reunion scene Ennis more than reassured Jack that he loved him with a very passionate kiss.  Unfortunately the kisses went on too long and Alma saw what was happening and from then on in her mind Jack went from being Ennis' friend to Alma's rival and a threat to her marriage.

Also I think Jack thought that as long as Ennis and Alma were married that they could never be together and so he showed up at Ennis' house after he got the card saying that the divorce had come through.  I think he thought that this was Ennis' way of telling him that was how it was going to be.  Poor Jack when he found out the real truth.  The problem was with Ennis and his fears about being outed as a gay man.  From Ennis' childhood experiences his paranoia was controlling his whole life.  That is why he could never be with Jack.  In that case despite the fact that Ennis loved Jack more than Alma it was Alma who had the advantage because she was not a man and hence Ennis was not afraid to live with her.

[Brown Eyes]

I'm feeling nostalgic tonight.
Bump.
 

[Front-Ranger]

Yes, and that little wave she gives as they drive off leaving a cloud of dust...

[Brown Eyes]

It’s such a cold moment when Ennis walks in that morning. He looks at Alma with her tearstained face and says only, “Hey.” After being married so long, you’d think he’d notice when she’s had a sleepless night.

I can’t decide whether she says, “You know your friend could...” or “You know, your friend could...” Slightly different meaning. I think she offers because she’s supposed to...in a normal social situation. Since this obviously isn’t one, based on the kiss and spending the night out, she’s clinging to whatever shred of normalcy she can so that she doesn’t break down in front of him. I like watching the progression here of Alma chasing Ennis, asking about coffee (twice), then about the job (you’ve got responsibilities, Ennis), then finally simply looking. Nothing more to say. The wonder and hurt in her face as she sees them driving off--it’s difficult to be happy for Jack and Ennis while watching her cry.

I think much of Ennis's behavior in this scene the morning after the motel is meant to show us that Ennis can't really look Alma in the eye.  Yeah, he glances at her when he first enters the apartment, but I don't think he really looks at her.  And as he's running around packing he seems to deliberately avoid eye contact.  It's only after Alma Jr. enters the scene and he kisses her that Ennis settles down a tiny bit and kisses Alma good bye.  The tension between his glee and probably post-coital giddiness and Alma's sadness is amazingly well played in the movie.  I still think that the notion of Jack coming in for breakfast or coffee is sort of hilarious.  I would actually love to see how that would possibly have played out.  Yes, Alma might on the surface be trying to be polite, but I think she's really trying to test Ennis and Jack here.  I don't know what she thinks she would gain though.  Her voice when she says "you know your friend could come in and have a cup of coffee" sounds like a challenge or there's an edge of bitterness in her tone.  Alma knows exactly what the boys have been up to that night...  I sort of wonder if she wants to guage their behavior a bit more with her own eyes.  Throughout this interaction it's always hard for me to remember that Ennis doesn't know that Alma saw the kiss.  This seems crucial.  But, I always sort of forget that part of the equation here.  Poor Alma... looking out the window only to learn that the first thing Jack and Ennis are going to do is go have coffee and breakfast without her (she knows without a doubt now that they're avoiding her).  And worst of all they're going to a restaurant.  So, Jack is a "restaurant type" after all.

[serious crayons]

It’s such a cold moment when Ennis walks in that morning. He looks at Alma with her tearstained face and says only, “Hey.” After being married so long, you’d think he’d notice when she’s had a sleepless night.

I think much of Ennis's behavior in this scene the morning after the motel is meant to show us that Ennis can't really look Alma in the eye.

To me, he mainly seems distracted and excited. Guilt is another good possibility. But the way I've always interpreted it is, he's so caught up in being with Jack that he can't be bothered to pay much attention to Alma.

I can’t decide whether she says, “You know your friend could...” or “You know, your friend could...” Slightly different meaning. I think she offers because she’s supposed to...in a normal social situation.

Yes, Alma might on the surface be trying to be polite, but I think she's really trying to test Ennis and Jack here.  I don't know what she thinks she would gain though.  Her voice when she says "you know your friend could come in and have a cup of coffee" sounds like a challenge or there's an edge of bitterness in her tone.

I think of the coffee offer as a desperate grab for normalcy, not so much out of her own duty to be polite, but because she hopes somehow that if Jack came in she'd find out her suspicions were wrong, or maybe she can keep an eye on the two of them, or at least she can delay Ennis' departure, or ... something. Anything to keep things from going in the direction they're going. It's the same when she asks about his job, frantically trying anything she can to stall or prevent him from leaving.

[David]

OMG that scene is just chock full of awkward moments!

Jack meeting Alma is an anxious moment for him.  Trust me!   Ahem, there is nothing scarier than meeting face to face the spouse of the man your sleeping with!  <blush>

As for Ennis when he returns after the Motel scene?    Yikes!   Ennis is obviously anxious to get in and out of the apt as quickly as possible.   He is still on cloud nine with Jack there.   You are correct that he can barely face Alma.     

Her asking about Jack coming in for Coffee is very much a test.   She wants to see if the guys can look her in the face.   If Jack were to come in and the three of them sit around and chat comfortably, then she might think they were actually just out drinking the night before.  But the fact Jack didn't want to come in and face her was a gesture that itself spoke a thousand words.

At this point remember, Jack still thinks there is a chance Ennis will Ranch up with him.

[Brown Eyes]

Bump!
 

[Ellemeno]

I had never read this thread before!  Thanks for the bump.

[Brown Eyes]

I had never read this thread before!  Thanks for the bump.

   LOL... I think this was one of the very first threads I started on BetterMost... pretty close to it.  It was on my mind because of starting that Jack and Alma Jr. thread recently.  Some day when I have a lot of time on my hands I want to re-real some of these really old (and often really long) threads.  And I mean read the whole threads... from first to last post.  That will be quite a commitment.  So much time has past that I'm sometimes honestly a little surprised to read my comments or I forget entirely about some given strain of conversation.  "I said that... really?"   

Most of the time I'm happy to report that I usually agree with myself (my self from a few months back). 

At this point I look at Open Forum and I'm truly in awe of how much we've been able to tease out of this one movie and story in terms of topics for discussion.  And... I mean really serious and interesting topics.  I'm very proud of us. 

[serious crayons]

So much time has past that I'm sometimes honestly a little surprised to read my comments or I forget entirely about some given strain of conversation.  "I said that... really?"

  I do that, too! Sometimes I'll be scanning down an old thread and see some post and think, "Hmm ... that's an interesting point," or "Maybe, but on the other hand, blah blah blah," or "Well, I'd have to respectfully disagree" ... and then I notice that the original poster was me!

At this point I look at Open Forum and I'm truly in awe of how much we've been able to tease out of this one movie and story in terms of topics for discussion.  And... I mean really serious and interesting topics.  I'm very proud of us. 

Me too. I am continually amazed at how much we've mined from this 134-minute movie (and 28-page story). And it never seems to stop! I'm still learning!

[Brown Eyes]

[BBM-Cat]

Quite interesting thread - I don't have much to add other than it must have added further insult to injury when Jack did not come inside Ennis' & Alma's apartment the morning after - especially (if Alma was meant to overhear as we the audience were), that Ennis & Jack were going to a diner to eat breakfast - being that Jack was "not the restaurant type".

[stoppedatennis]

Hi, joined a few months back and have been catching up on alot of reading here on the forums. Saw this thread and just had to comment:

 I feel Jack had seen all the Alma he cared to see. This is the woman who had come between him and Ennis for 4 years. Of course she was competition for Ennis's heart.  Jack had already won that little game 4 years back unbeknownest to Alma. Jack was'nt about to come back up there and pretend to have coffe and  more *pleasant conversation* with her. Why would he after the reception he got from her the night before? She did'nt exactly  endear herself to him  any. ( with good cause of course!) Besides the last thing Ennis wants is Jack and Alma getting any closer than the conversation he had with her the night before . He wanted no part in this collision course! She may even ask about the "all night bar" in Riverton Wy where all this ' drinkin and talkin and all' took place. No A married man cheating does'nt want or need THAT drama believe me. Jack had already talked Ennis into an extra 2 or 3 days more with him anyway.  Alma had no way to compete with another man. beside Alma Jr and Jenny , she had nothing on Jack This marriage had no real emotinal connection from the start and judging from that kiss, Jack owned Ennis. Woooowweeee! tHAT WAS DAMN HOT.

[Brown Eyes]

Hi, joined a few months back and have been catching up on alot of reading here on the forums. Saw this thread and just had to comment:

 I feel Jack had seen all the Alma he cared to see. This is the woman who had come between him and Ennis for 4 years. Of course she was competition for Ennis's heart.  Jack had already won that little game 4 years back unbeknownest to Alma. Jack was'nt about to come back up there and pretend to have coffe and  more *pleasant conversation* with her. Why would he after the reception he got from her the night before? She did'nt exactly  endear herself to him  any. ( with good cause of course!) Besides the last thing Ennis wants is Jack and Alma getting any closer than the conversation he had with her the night before . He wanted no part in this collision course! She may even ask about the "all night bar" in Riverton Wy where all this ' drinkin and talkin and all' took place. No A married man cheating does'nt want or need THAT drama believe me. Jack had already talked Ennis into an extra 2 or 3 days more with him anyway.  Alma had no way to compete with another man. beside Alma Jr and Jenny , she had nothing on Jack This marriage had no real emotinal connection from the start and judging from that kiss, Jack owned Ennis. Woooowweeee! tHAT WAS DAMN HOT.

Hey Bud (again!)

Well, of course you're right.  Jack won Ennis's heart up on Brokeback for sure and the "reunion kiss" just prior to Jack being introduced to Alma was probably all the proof Jack needed at that moment that Ennis was still head-over-heals for him.    Still, though, Alma was competition for Ennis's time and commitment.  I'm still fixated on the glare that Jack gives Alma right before he and Ennis head out the door of the apartment together.  It's strikingly aggressive for our sweet Jack.

[serious crayons]

I'm still fixated on the glare that Jack gives Alma right before he and Ennis head out the door of the apartment together.  It's strikingly aggressive for our sweet Jack.

The first time I noticed that glare was the second-to-last time I watched the movie  !! I'd of course noticed tension between the two but somehow missed the actual GLARE. You're right, it's pretty pronounced.

[Penthesilea]

I'm still fixated on the glare that Jack gives Alma right before he and Ennis head out the door of the apartment together.  It's strikingly aggressive for our sweet Jack.

The first time I noticed that glare was the second-to-last time I watched the movie  !! I'd of course noticed tension between the two but somehow missed the actual GLARE. You're right, it's pretty pronounced.

Jeez, I just come from the lovable subtle details thread and now I have another scene to have a closer look at and do it in slow-motion, because I haven't noticed the glare yet. Will be back later.

[Penthesilea]

I watched the scene four or five times and only concentrated on Jack. How he beams! That's so sweet. I know I've noticed this before, but somehow I had forgotten it.
I had of course noticed him "trembling like a run-out horse", all the electricity that sparkles inbetween them, how they breathe, how he's nervously babbling and how his gaze alternates between Ennis and Alma. I had taken in 'the whole picture' quasi. But I think I never noticed that glare.

[Brown Eyes]

I watched the scene four or five times and only concentrated on Jack. How he beams! That's so sweet. I know I've noticed this before, but somehow I had forgotten it.
I had of course noticed him "trembling like a run-out horse", all the electricity that sparkles inbetween them, how they breathe, how he's nervously babbling and how his gaze alternates between Ennis and Alma. I had taken in 'the whole picture' quasi. But I think I never noticed that glare.

Yeah, while they're all talking, Jack maintains a pleasant demeanor.  He looks smitten at Ennis and smiles, etc. at Alma.  But right after he says "pleased to meet you" he sets that fierce glare at Alma and then he backs out of the apartment.  It's interesting to note how possessive Jack is of Ennis at this point... maybe paralleling how possessive Ennis reveals himself to be during his rather jealous blow-up over Mexico at the end.

[serious crayons]

But right after he says "pleased to meet you" he sets that fierce glare at Alma and then he backs out of the apartment.

He waits until Ennis has turned away and can't see it! Because before that, Ennis was clearly excited to introduce Jack and Alma.

[Brown Eyes]

He waits until Ennis has turned away and can't see it! Because before that, Ennis was clearly excited to introduce Jack and Alma.

Oh yes.  I agree with this completely.  I think it's been mentioned (probably a number of times here and there) that Ennis seems to turn to Alma for approval with a smile when Jack makes his funny little "smiles a lot" comment.  And, he's concerned enough about introducing Jack to Alma to break-up the reunion kiss before Jack was really ready.  No, I don't think Ennis would have noticed the tension between Jack and Alma at all.  If only for the basic reason that he was pretty frazzled by the who situation.  Maybe a precursor to his sort of goofy behavior while he's running around packing following the night in the motel.

[Rayn]

Hi, I was reading through the pages here, and I know I posted a very long entry on this topic,  but there is a thing or two I didn't say about Alma.  She was innocent and unaware of what she was getting into when she married Ennis.  For that reason, and for the reasons in my long post, I felt for Alma because she really got a raw deal.

Yes, I saw Jack's glare, yes, it was awesome, Jack did "own" Ennis, it's true.  From a man's point of view, I know how Jack felt, but I could also understand Alma pretty deeply and felt sad for her slow but steady downhill turn after Jack came back.

All three people are good people, but Alma was the purest, the clearest of the three in many ways and she deserved someone like herself to love her.  I guess she got that in the end, but I don't know how happy she will be having come through such a painful and disillusioning divorce.  I like Alma, understand her bitterness toward Ennis.  I'm not sure why, but I do, so I feel a little protective of her in a way and was glad to see she finally did something to change her situation.