Author Topic: Jack and Alma Jr.- Parallels?  (Read 9322 times)

Offline Brown Eyes

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Jack and Alma Jr.- Parallels?
« on: December 30, 2006, 01:28:03 am »
Greetings BetterMostians,

So, I'll start with the now-standard disclaimer.  I apologize if this topic has already come up in other threads... but this has been on my mind a bit lately. 

I've been thinking about potential parallels between Jack and Alma Jr., as odd as that might sound.  But I think it's a valid issue and might pose some interesting questions about Ennis.  Essentially, the biggest issue is that Ennis denies himself the opportunity to live with both Jack and Alma Jr.  Both Jack and his daughter offer him this opportunity explicitly (obviously we hear Jack offer this option to Ennis more than once and Alma Jr. sort of begs Ennis to let her live with him... in her own quiet way).  Also, both Jack and Alma Jr. seem to be associated with birds... or bluebirds in particular (and also eagles in the case of Jack).  And... Jack and Alma Jr. (and I assume Jenny) are the people that Ennis seems to love the most in his life... and in all cases he denies himself the potential happiness of building a daily life with them.  I don't know exactly what my question is here.  It just seems to be an interesting angle that hasn't come up so much before.  I guess for me this observation shows that Ennis was capable of denying himself happiness on multiple levels (not just with Jack).  Poor Ennis.  :'(
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Offline Ellemeno

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Re: Jack and Alma Jr.- Parallels?
« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2006, 01:32:06 am »
And they are the two who love him as he is. 

I like the direction we're headed as we reach the new year.


Offline BBM-Cat

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Re: Jack and Alma Jr.- Parallels?
« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2006, 02:54:17 am »
 Ennis was capable of denying himself happiness on multiple levels (not just with Jack).  Poor Ennis.  :'([/quote]

Very interesting perspective - a case could also be made for Ennis denying himself a "daily life" with Cassie as well. Of course, I understand he was only dating her, although five years is a long time and especially to not be able to give yourself 'fully' to another person. Someone, (perhaps you Amanda) in another post alluded to the bookends of Ennis not believing himself to be worthy of other people's love or affection (i.e. 'what are you doing' lines to Jack and to Cassie, separately). I definitely agree with the view of Ennis' style of self-denial - likely a culmination of many factors - chiefly, deprivation (economic, emotional, etc.) - all leading to a sense of self-preservation. I loved Jack's comment to Ennis in one of the final camping scenes, "you want to live your miserable life? go ahead!" - implying Ennis had control over many situations, even if he did not believe so himself.
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Offline welliwont

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Re: Jack and Alma Jr.- Parallels?
« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2006, 12:55:02 pm »

Greetings BetterMostians,

So, I'll start with the now-standard disclaimer.  I apologize if this topic has already come up in other threads... but this has been on my mind a bit lately. 

I've been thinking about potential parallels between Jack and Alma Jr., as odd as that might sound.  But I think it's a valid issue and might pose some interesting questions about Ennis.  Essentially, the biggest issue is that Ennis denies himself the opportunity to live with both Jack and Alma Jr.  Both Jack and his daughter offer him this opportunity explicitly (obviously we hear Jack offer this option to Ennis more than once and Alma Jr. sort of begs Ennis to let her live with him... in her own quiet way).  Also, both Jack and Alma Jr. seem to be associated with birds... or bluebirds in particular (and also eagles in the case of Jack).  And... Jack and Alma Jr. (and I assume Jenny) are the people that Ennis seems to love the most in his life... and in all cases he denies himself the potential happiness of building a daily life with them.  I don't know exactly what my question is here.  It just seems to be an interesting angle that hasn't come up so much before.  I guess for me this observation shows that Ennis was capable of denying himself happiness on multiple levels (not just with Jack).  Poor Ennis.  :'(

Awright, here's me, attacking Ennis again, but I will try not to be too harsh.

Poor Ennis???   Ennis is a goof, denying himself.  The guy is a goofball, why he would deny his daughter to live with him, to me it tells me that he wants to be alone, wants to be lonely.  That's my gut impression.  If I try and dig deeper....

His little daughter is asking to live with him, and in the very next breath Ennis throws up his reasons for denying her.  He does not even consider it for one milli-second.  "I ain't set up for that.  I'm gonna be gone on the round-up."  There are very manageable work-arounds for both these excuses.  Ennis doesn't want her to live with him.  that is the way I read it.  I don't see any underlying reasons for him turning Alma Jr down.

Now for me, if I want something, I work and strive to have it, no two ways about it.  If Ennis does not work and strive to have Alma Jr or Jack live with him, my deduction is that he doesn't really want them living with him.

Am I thick??   ??? ???

Then the clouds opened up and God said, "I hate you, Alfafa."

Marge_Innavera

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Re: Jack and Alma Jr.- Parallels?
« Reply #4 on: December 31, 2006, 12:24:28 pm »
Am I thick??   ??? ???

Well, there are quite a few aspects to this you seem to have either dismissed or not considered.

Ennis' problems, like most intractible problems that can cripple a person's life, cannot be overcome just by "striving" and trying hard. This is a person who has spent his life cut off from connections to other people one way or another. Yes, he does deny himself happiness but to simply dismiss that as being 'a goof' is equivalent to saying that someone who has a problem with stuttering is lazy and doesn't care about communicating clearly because "after all, all he has to do is stop stuttering."

Here's a few other things that you might consider taking into account:

Guilt. This is a person first of all ridden with guilt over parts of himself that he can't accept, and typically people who don't feel they deserve something - or someone - often seem to throw it away. The fact that Alma Junior iis disappointed but doesn't give up trying to reach him suggests that at some level she understands that this isn't a personal rejection of her as his daughter.

Difficulty in communicating. As much as he loves his daughters, Ennis is never quite at ease around them once they're past early childhood.

A fractured life.  His fears and inability to accept his own sexual nature has led him to keep his relationship with Jack his life's great secret, even as that relationship is the most important thing in his life.  And it's one thing to go off on "fishing trips" when their mother is at home with them or when he's living alone; quite another, and a complication, with one or both of the children living with him.

Legal and visitation problems.  This is arguably the 500-pound gorilla in the room. Ennis might not be well educated but it's amazing how quickly people can get an education about family law when they get divorced; especially when children are involved.

At this point in the story, Alma clearly knows what his relationship to Jack is, and an attempt to get primary physical custody, which is what Junior is talking about in the legal sense, would involve a court hearing and a family law judge going over every detail he/she can get hands on. Ennis' financial situation would be contrasted to Alma's and Monroe's and Alma might just see this as the final straw that would get her to go public about the reason their marriage broke up. If she should do that, Ennis would not only not get custody of either of the girls, he might well lose visitation rights.  If he'd had a heterosexual affair, that revelation in court might not be as traumatic for him but the result would likely be the same and this is still true in family law in many states.

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.   The reasons Ennis gives Junior might not be the whole story, but they're legitimate reasons. Ranch work isn't a Monday-Friday 8:30-5:00 deal; it involves very long hours and frequent absences. Again, do-able when he was married and their mother lived in the same household; not necessarily a good living situation for a teenage girl at this point. And he's probably aware that her complaint about Alma and Monroe "being too strict" with her is to some extent a teenager's perspective and necessarily limited.

Maybe not the complete answer and it doesn't let him off the hook entirely; but 'trying harder' simply can't address every human tragedy or smooth over every rough spot in family relationships.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2006, 12:35:16 pm by Marge_Innavera »

Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: Jack and Alma Jr.- Parallels?
« Reply #5 on: December 31, 2006, 12:40:54 pm »
I have a different take on this. Rather than Alma Jr., isn't Jr. actually Ennis Jr.? That is, she takes after Ennis, but she has learned from observing him and the times are different, so she represents the hope and the future of Ennis. The one who reminds me of Jack is Jenny--she of the asthmatic wheeze, the one who Ennis grabs and comforts, the singer, and the one who doesn't appear again after Jack dies.

She is also the one whose ear Ennis pulls as he said, "I didn't have no wings." She's his little darlin.
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Offline welliwont

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Re: Jack and Alma Jr.- Parallels?
« Reply #6 on: December 31, 2006, 01:49:39 pm »

Ennis' problems, like most intractible problems that can cripple a person's life, cannot be overcome just by "striving" and trying hard. This is a person who has spent his life cut off from connections to other people one way or another. Yes, he does deny himself happiness but to simply dismiss that as being 'a goof' is equivalent to saying that someone who has a problem with stuttering is lazy and doesn't care about communicating clearly because "after all, all he has to do is stop stuttering."

Sorry, I don't agree.  The topic I am discussing is why won't Ennis allow his beloved daughter to live with him?  that's it.  Ennis is a functioning person, he has a job, he goes to work, he is not a totally dysfunctional person.  Yes he has issues about being gay, self denial, etc etc.  I don't think that those problems are an excuse for refusing to live with Alma Jr.  I am not explaining this as well as I would like to, oh well.

Yes I agree that his issues are blocking him from having the sweet life with Jack.  I already don't think he should stay mired in his issues, but I have already argued that point in the past, and I have my opinion, you have yours.



PS: 


Am I thick??   ??? ???


that was a rhetorical question BTW, Marge, but you are entitled to your opinion.  Since you don't really know me, you don't really have an informed opinion about that.
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Offline fernly

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Re: Jack and Alma Jr.- Parallels?
« Reply #7 on: December 31, 2006, 02:39:27 pm »
Quote from: Front-Ranger
I have a different take on this. Rather than Alma Jr., isn't Jr. actually Ennis Jr.? That is, she takes after Ennis, but she has learned from observing him and the times are different, so she represents the hope and the future of Ennis. The one who reminds me of Jack is Jenny--she of the asthmatic wheeze, the one who Ennis grabs and comforts, the singer, and the one who doesn't appear again after Jack dies.
She is also the one whose ear Ennis pulls as he said, "I didn't have no wings." She's his little darlin.
Makes sense. Beautifully said.

Oh, geeze, Lee, "the one who doesn't appear again after Jack dies."  I'd always wondered about that. No wonder Jenny 'disappearing' reasonated.

Maybe another way that Jr. takes after Ennis...by the time she tells him about the wedding, seems like it's been planned for quite a while. I wonder if she put off telling her dad, worried, (same as he was to tell Jack about August), expecting Ennis to say exactly what he did at first, that he couldn't.

But I've always thought that her brilliant smile, when Ennis says he will, is what Jack's smile would have looked like, if Ennis had said yes to him.

Ennis was right, he didn't have wings, did he? Had them torn off by his father. Then folded Jack's wings for him in the wild columbine, doing what his daddy taught him to do (that long, rather oblique speech in the story 'explaining' the punch). Ennis couldn't see a way to fly, soon enough, even though I try to believe he would have, given more time with Jack after their confrontation.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2006, 05:41:21 pm by fernly »
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Offline nakymaton

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Re: Jack and Alma Jr.- Parallels?
« Reply #8 on: December 31, 2006, 02:53:20 pm »
And for more Ennis/Alma Jr. parallels, there's "This Kurt fellow... does he love you?" I've always thought that Ennis was thinking of Jack loving him... and then he gives 19-year-old Junior the permission that he was never able to give himself.

And to Jane... I think that the fact that Ennis won't let Alma Jr live with him was another sign of how tangled up Ennis was inside. It took Jack's death to push him towards any sort of change, even something as little as going to his beloved daughter's wedding. Ennis is a mess. It's not a good way to be, but I find it understandable, if tragic.
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Offline welliwont

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Re: Jack and Alma Jr.- Parallels?
« Reply #9 on: December 31, 2006, 03:53:14 pm »

And to Jane... I think that the fact that Ennis won't let Alma Jr live with him was another sign of how tangled up Ennis was inside. It took Jack's death to push him towards any sort of change, even something as little as going to his beloved daughter's wedding. Ennis is a mess. It's not a good way to be, but I find it understandable, if tragic.


Ah Mel, always the stellar articulator!    ;) :-*  Just so dam good at explainin', you even make me understand better what I am trying to say!   :o

Ennis was a mess.  yep, you are dead right there.  The question is, how much of a mess, and how paralytic were his issues?  I can certainly understand what you are saying and we have all discussed this before, and some of you fellow Brokies make such convincing arguments to me for this state of affairs:  How much, how badly how extensively Ennis was affected by the Earl tragedy.  Hell you all can make me see the logic so much that I almost agree with you.

But then, two months later, when the question comes up again, my gut feeling is still about the same as it was before.  I just don't give Ennis a pass for all his shit actions.  Such as denying Alma Jr to live with him.  I think this is based on degree of willingness to forgive.  You guys will forgive Ennis for way more than I will.  I personally do not feel that he gets a blanket Get Out Of Jail Free Card for the way he treated JAck, Alma Jr, and do not forget his girlfriend of five years Cassie!!!  :-\

But I can appreciate that you guys are more forgiving of Ennis.

Happy New Year to all my discussion buddies at BetterMost!  :-* :-* :-*




Then the clouds opened up and God said, "I hate you, Alfafa."

Offline nakymaton

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Re: Jack and Alma Jr.- Parallels?
« Reply #10 on: December 31, 2006, 05:01:13 pm »
I think this is based on degree of willingness to forgive.  You guys will forgive Ennis for way more than I will.

Well, some of us have to forgive Ennis if we're ever going to forgive our own Inner Ennis.

Quote
personally do not feel that he gets a blanket Get Out Of Jail Free Card for the way he treated JAck, Alma Jr, and do not forget his girlfriend of five years Cassie!!!

I would add Alma to that list. :( A different person in a different world might have broken off the marriage before it happened, and a jilted-but-young Alma would probably have gotten over it eventually.

I don't think it's just the Earl incident that messed up Ennis. The Earl incident is a powerful image, but I think it was used in the story and the movie as a way of capturing an entire violently anti-gay culture. Presumably it wasn't just seeing Earl's body in the ditch that scarred Ennis... that one image just drives home the horror to the readers/viewers.

And... well, self-hatred and guilt really can paralyze people.

And Ennis's fears were reasonable, in many ways. Marge is right about family court... Alma wouldn't have given up custody of Alma Jr. easily, and courts tend to give custody to mothers anyway, and... it would have gotten ugly. And the way rumors spread in a small town? In many ways, Ennis was a realist (especially in contrast with Jack-the-dreamer), as well as being paralyzed by self-hatred.

Quote
Ennis was right, he didn't have wings, did he? Had them torn off by his father. Then folded Jack's wings for him in the wild columbine, doing what his daddy taught him to do (that long, rather oblique speech in the story 'explaining' the punch). Ennis couldn't see a way to fly, soon enough, even though I try to believe he would have, given more time with Jack after their confrontation.

Fernly, this is beautiful. Sad, but beautiful.
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Marge_Innavera

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Re: Jack and Alma Jr.- Parallels?
« Reply #11 on: December 31, 2006, 05:03:00 pm »
The topic I am discussing is why won't Ennis allow his beloved daughter to live with him?  that's it.  Ennis is a functioning person, he has a job, he goes to work, he is not a totally dysfunctional person.  Yes he has issues about being gay, self denial, etc etc.  I don't think that those problems are an excuse for refusing to live with Alma Jr. 

They aren't an excuse. They're the underlying reason.  Having a job and going to work doesn't necessarily mean that a person isn't disfunctional to varying degrees in human relationships. And reasons are not the same as excuses.

Quote
that was a rhetorical question BTW, Marge, but you are entitled to your opinion.  Since you don't really know me, you don't really have an informed opinion about that.

I'm not sure what opinion you think I'm expressing. You asked a rhetorical question "am I thick?" and I answered that there were things you'd overlooked or were dismissing. You can put what interpretations you like on that.

Marge_Innavera

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Re: Jack and Alma Jr.- Parallels?
« Reply #12 on: December 31, 2006, 05:09:17 pm »
Maybe another way that Jr. takes after Ennis...by the time she tells him about the wedding, seems like it's been planned for quite a while. I wonder if she putting off telling her dad, worried, (same as he was to tell Jack about August), expecting Ennis to say exactly what he did at first, that he couldn't.

But I've always thought that her brilliant smile, when Ennis says he will, is what Jack's smile would have looked like, if Ennis had said yes to him.

One of my reactions the first time I ever saw that scene was a bit of sadness at her having to invite her own father to her wedding. I never invited my Dad and he would have been astounded if I had. And something about her tone of voice suggests that he's kept that barrier up between himself and even the people closest to him consistently enough that she doesn't exactly expect an affirmative answer.

Do you think her invitation included giving her away? She mentioned her stepfather catering the reception but nothing about that part of it.

Marge_Innavera

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Re: Jack and Alma Jr.- Parallels?
« Reply #13 on: December 31, 2006, 05:14:59 pm »
It took Jack's death to push him towards any sort of change, even something as little as going to his beloved daughter's wedding. Ennis is a mess. It's not a good way to be, but I find it understandable, if tragic.

And deciding to be at the wedding was no small decision. You can bet he'd managed to avoid any contact with Alma after that Thanksgiving incident, and now he'll have to be sitting in the front pew next to her! Even if they don't socialize much, they're going to have to interact some as the parents of the bride, and at this point Ennis isn't just estranged from his ex-wife, he realizes that she knows he's gay. For that matter, Monroe probably does too - wouldn't he have wanted an explanation as to why she's screaming and apparently throwing plates as Ennis storms out? Chances are overwheliming neither of them will ever mention that to him for for somebody like Ennis it would be an excruciating kind of public exposure and his deciding to be there indicates a willingness to move outside that fear-bounded comfort zone. It's one of the few rays of hope at the end.

Offline welliwont

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Re: Jack and Alma Jr.- Parallels?
« Reply #14 on: December 31, 2006, 07:33:33 pm »


I'm not sure what opinion you think I'm expressing. You asked a rhetorical question "am I thick?" and I answered that there were things you'd overlooked or were dismissing. You can put what interpretations you like on that.


Well Marge, I guess I will tell you if you did not figure it out yourself.  I was referring to the first reply that you posted, the one that came to my e-mail inbox.   Y'see Marge, when you post a post, the people who have previously posted on the thread will get future posts to the same thread sent directly to their inbox.  Unless they disable the feature after they post.  So you see, your first post went to my in-box, and I was able to read your initial reply.  Then you edited it on the thread.  That was the post I was commenting on.
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Marge_Innavera

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Re: Jack and Alma Jr.- Parallels?
« Reply #15 on: January 01, 2007, 11:37:03 am »
Maybe another way that Jr. takes after Ennis...by the time she tells him about the wedding, seems like it's been planned for quite a while. I wonder if she put off telling her dad, worried, (same as he was to tell Jack about August), expecting Ennis to say exactly what he did at first, that he couldn't.

I planned my wedding long-distance over the phone, and I'm not sure it's been in the works very long. What she tells Ennis is the date, place and that Jenny will be singing and Monroe catering the reception. These two are family members, and if Jenny and family have been attending this Methodist Church, it might be just a matter of a week or so.

But she clearly does expect him to turn her down and not be there for her. And the very fact that she even asks her father to her wedding indicates how estranged Ennis is from even those he loves the most.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2007, 04:41:06 pm by Marge_Innavera »

Marge_Innavera

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Re: Jack and Alma Jr.- Parallels?
« Reply #16 on: January 01, 2007, 11:41:20 am »
Oh, geeze, Lee, "the one who doesn't appear again after Jack dies."  I'd always wondered about that. No wonder Jenny 'disappearing' reasonated.

Yes, but....

He does agree to attend the wedding, and according to what Junior tells him about her plans he will in fact hear the "angel" sing again on that day.

Marge_Innavera

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Re: Jack and Alma Jr.- Parallels?
« Reply #17 on: January 01, 2007, 11:45:38 am »
Well Marge, I guess I will tell you if you did not figure it out yourself.  I was referring to the first reply that you posted, the one that came to my e-mail inbox.   Y'see Marge, when you post a post, the people who have previously posted on the thread will get future posts to the same thread sent directly to their inbox.  Unless they disable the feature after they post.  So you see, your first post went to my in-box, and I was able to read your initial reply.  Then you edited it on the thread.  That was the post I was commenting on.

One of the reasons a "modify" button is so necessary is that things look different in print than they do when spoken. Or to put it more simply for you, a flippant remark that would be just that in a RL conversation might look too aggressive posted on a forum. I often edit posts after reviewing them, for that reason.

It appears that a fictional character isn't the only person you have issues with, but that's your personal business. Happy New Year to you.

Offline belbbmfan

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Re: Jack and Alma Jr.- Parallels?
« Reply #18 on: January 01, 2007, 12:23:04 pm »
One of my reactions the first time I ever saw that scene was a bit of sadness at her having to invite her own father to her wedding. I never invited my Dad and he would have been astounded if I had. And something about her tone of voice suggests that he's kept that barrier up between himself and even the people closest to him consistently enough that she doesn't exactly expect an affirmative answer.

Do you think her invitation included giving her away? She mentioned her stepfather catering the reception but nothing about that part of it.


I've enjoyed reading some of the posts here. You're right Marge, it was sad that Junior had to invite her Dad to her wedding. A wedding that was all planned and organised without him even knowing.

What struck me a another sign of how detached Ennis had become of this family was that he asked Junior 'So what's the occasion?' As if it just couldn't be a social visit by his daughter to see how he was doing. And that he didn't even knew she was dating Kurt... :(
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Marge_Innavera

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Re: Jack and Alma Jr.- Parallels?
« Reply #19 on: January 01, 2007, 04:39:45 pm »
I've enjoyed reading some of the posts here. You're right Marge, it was sad that Junior had to invite her Dad to her wedding. A wedding that was all planned and organised without him even knowing.

What struck me a another sign of how detached Ennis had become of this family was that he asked Junior 'So what's the occasion?' As if it just couldn't be a social visit by his daughter to see how he was doing. And that he didn't even knew she was dating Kurt... :( 

Interesting parallel to his sister - that she "married a roughneck" too. Maybe that's one of the sources of him always expecting to be alone.

On the subject of parallels to Jack - in getting up to get the wine out of the refrigerator, he uses the same body language as when headed toward the tent in the second tent scene - thinking a moment, then coming to a decision and pushing on his knees to get up. Done very late in the day, but in the end he does make a decision on the side of love.

Offline Andrew

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Re: Jack and Alma Jr.- Parallels?
« Reply #20 on: January 01, 2007, 10:01:44 pm »
I think most of the explanation of Ennis' response to his daughter's plea have been pretty well laid out.  I have to agree with Marge that a BIG factor which had not been much discussed, was the legal one.  Ennis sat there with bowed head while the judge said that custody until age eighteen went to Alma.  Alma junior is fifteen at this point.  He is a deeply fatalistic person who accepts that his life has to be lived the way the people in charge will it.  Add to this that the last person he would take on over such an issue is his former wife, with her power to spill the dark secret of his life (as he sees it).  And add that he probably believes his older daughter is better off in a two-parent home, together with her sister.  And probably thinks Alma's and Morgan's 'strictness' is a good thing, better than anything he could provide.  With his temperament and experience growing up, he expects just about any change in social relationships to be for the worst.  His self-esteem as a father figure, or as a partner in any social relationship, is non-existent.  In an paradoxical way, his knowledge that he is passable in a very few things, like his work, makes him the more unwilling to take even one step in the direction of the things he is convinced he would be terrible at.   His divorce was the last kick to whatever flimsy belief he had been trying to build that he could make passable decisions in family matters too.

EDITED to add the last sentence.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2007, 10:10:34 pm by Andrew »

Offline Ellemeno

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Re: Jack and Alma Jr.- Parallels?
« Reply #21 on: January 04, 2007, 08:20:25 am »

On the subject of parallels to Jack - in getting up to get the wine out of the refrigerator, he uses the same body language as when headed toward the tent in the second tent scene - thinking a moment, then coming to a decision and pushing on his knees to get up. Done very late in the day, but in the end he does make a decision on the side of love.

Oh good one, yes, I see that.  With the 20 years added to his stiffness.

Marge_Innavera

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Re: Jack and Alma Jr.- Parallels?
« Reply #22 on: January 05, 2007, 10:24:36 am »
And add that he probably believes his older daughter is better off in a two-parent home, together with her sister.  And probably thinks Alma's and Morgan's 'strictness' is a good thing, better than anything he could provide.  With his temperament and experience growing up, he expects just about any change in social relationships to be for the worst.  His self-esteem as a father figure, or as a partner in any social relationship, is non-existent.

One of my immediate reactions to that scene was that Junior's remark about their being "strict" can have a gazillion interpretations. This is a girl of high school age talking, and "strict" can mean not giving her as late a curfew as she'd like, or not letting her date a certain boy (not Troy, we can assume  :D). I doubt it meant outright meanness or unreasonableness since she doesn't seem unhappy about her stepfather being involved in her wedding. And to a teenager, a parent who's away with work a lot might have a certain appeal. That doesn't mean she doesn't love her father or that she'd want to exploit him in some cold way; that's just her being a teenager.  I do think the biggest part of Ennis' motives there is the question of how he'd handle his trips with Jack with a teenage daughter at home, but there are legit reasons too.

One thing I didn't catch about Ennis and his daughters until multiple viewings on the DVD is an aspect of the early scene where he's trying to cope with these two crying children, one a baby and the other a toddler. He looks very tired and a bit stressed in that scene, but not really unhappy. It makes the "might-have-been" all the more sad - if there was a more accepting attitude toward homosexuality by the mid-1970s and Ennis hadn't sent Jack away in that truck scene, he probably would have been seeing a lot more of his daughters than he is.  What I picked up from those scenes was that this is a person whose nature is far more loving and protective than anyone sees, but the situation he's in and his inability to deal with it results in a quite fractured life.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Jack and Alma Jr.- Parallels?
« Reply #23 on: January 05, 2007, 02:18:57 pm »
I'm just catching up on this excellent thread, and others have already made some great points about why Ennis can't just buck up and overcome his childhood scarring, why he might legitimately have hesitated to let Jr. move in, etc.

My feeling is that, although Ennis certainly does have problems connecting with his loved ones, the prospect of Alma Jr. living with Ennis is a terrible idea for all concerned.

At 15, she'd be living in a shabby, isolated house in the middle of nowhere, far from her school and social life, with a single dad who is gone half the time -- as opposed to living in a stable family, with rules and limits and the company of her sister, in a house conveniently located in town. I'm sure that, in a pinch, she could have made do and even been happy in the former situation, but no way is it preferable to the latter.

I hate to keep relying on this explanation -- it's my version of the "cigar is just a cigar" argument for dismissing symbolism -- but I think this scene is there mainly as a narrative device, to set up a parallel with Jack and Ennis' situation. It's like the post-divorce scene: in turning Jack away, Ennis makes what is actually a sound and responsible decision not to ditch his daughters -- but that's not the point of the scene, the point is that he's letting Jack down. In the later scene, we're not meant to concentrate on whether Jr's moving in is really a good idea, but on the fact that Ennis is rejecting her offer to live together, just as he has rejected Jack's. That way the ending, when Ennis finally reverses the pattern, offers a sign of redemption and hope.


Offline Ellemeno

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Re: Jack and Alma Jr.- Parallels?
« Reply #24 on: January 12, 2007, 04:58:13 am »
Marge, you are really good at seeing things from different people's perspectives.  I just got done watching To Kill a Mockingbird, and that was one of Atticus's main points, to not judge someone til you had walked in their shoes, seen the world from their point of view. 

I don't know if you are a heavy Gyllenhallic or not, but To Kill a Mockingbird is said to be Jake's favorite book, and one of his dogs is named after Atticus, the other after Boo.

Maybe in 20 years he'll do a remake with himself in that part.

Anyway, I got a lot out of reading your posts in this thread.

Offline Ladyeve

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Re: Jack and Alma Jr.- Parallels?
« Reply #25 on: January 19, 2007, 05:36:49 pm »
Alma, Jr. affirms love is real for Ennis.  When she told him about her up coming marriage, Ennis asks her "Does he love you?" that is the first time Ennis ever speaks the word love.  That scene alone touched my heart.   When he look away, you knew he was thinking of Jack.   Alma, Jr. and Jack, the two people who did love Ennis, even in the midst of all his torment.  They wanted him in their lives, trying to drawn him closer, never giving up on him.  He was just to full of that crippling fear, and the fact he just didn't love himself enough. IMO.