Jack and Alma Jr.- Parallels?

[nakymaton]

I think this is based on degree of willingness to forgive.  You guys will forgive Ennis for way more than I will.

Well, some of us have to forgive Ennis if we're ever going to forgive our own Inner Ennis.

personally do not feel that he gets a blanket Get Out Of Jail Free Card for the way he treated JAck, Alma Jr, and do not forget his girlfriend of five years Cassie!!!

I would add Alma to that list. A different person in a different world might have broken off the marriage before it happened, and a jilted-but-young Alma would probably have gotten over it eventually.

I don't think it's just the Earl incident that messed up Ennis. The Earl incident is a powerful image, but I think it was used in the story and the movie as a way of capturing an entire violently anti-gay culture. Presumably it wasn't just seeing Earl's body in the ditch that scarred Ennis... that one image just drives home the horror to the readers/viewers.

And... well, self-hatred and guilt really can paralyze people.

And Ennis's fears were reasonable, in many ways. Marge is right about family court... Alma wouldn't have given up custody of Alma Jr. easily, and courts tend to give custody to mothers anyway, and... it would have gotten ugly. And the way rumors spread in a small town? In many ways, Ennis was a realist (especially in contrast with Jack-the-dreamer), as well as being paralyzed by self-hatred.

Ennis was right, he didn't have wings, did he? Had them torn off by his father. Then folded Jack's wings for him in the wild columbine, doing what his daddy taught him to do (that long, rather oblique speech in the story 'explaining' the punch). Ennis couldn't see a way to fly, soon enough, even though I try to believe he would have, given more time with Jack after their confrontation.

Fernly, this is beautiful. Sad, but beautiful.

[Marge_Innavera]

The topic I am discussing is why won't Ennis allow his beloved daughter to live with him?  that's it.  Ennis is a functioning person, he has a job, he goes to work, he is not a totally dysfunctional person.  Yes he has issues about being gay, self denial, etc etc.  I don't think that those problems are an excuse for refusing to live with Alma Jr. 

They aren't an excuse. They're the underlying reason.  Having a job and going to work doesn't necessarily mean that a person isn't disfunctional to varying degrees in human relationships. And reasons are not the same as excuses.

that was a rhetorical question BTW, Marge, but you are entitled to your opinion.  Since you don't really know me, you don't really have an informed opinion about that.

I'm not sure what opinion you think I'm expressing. You asked a rhetorical question "am I thick?" and I answered that there were things you'd overlooked or were dismissing. You can put what interpretations you like on that.

[Marge_Innavera]

Maybe another way that Jr. takes after Ennis...by the time she tells him about the wedding, seems like it's been planned for quite a while. I wonder if she putting off telling her dad, worried, (same as he was to tell Jack about August), expecting Ennis to say exactly what he did at first, that he couldn't.

But I've always thought that her brilliant smile, when Ennis says he will, is what Jack's smile would have looked like, if Ennis had said yes to him.

One of my reactions the first time I ever saw that scene was a bit of sadness at her having to invite her own father to her wedding. I never invited my Dad and he would have been astounded if I had. And something about her tone of voice suggests that he's kept that barrier up between himself and even the people closest to him consistently enough that she doesn't exactly expect an affirmative answer.

Do you think her invitation included giving her away? She mentioned her stepfather catering the reception but nothing about that part of it.

[Marge_Innavera]

It took Jack's death to push him towards any sort of change, even something as little as going to his beloved daughter's wedding. Ennis is a mess. It's not a good way to be, but I find it understandable, if tragic.

And deciding to be at the wedding was no small decision. You can bet he'd managed to avoid any contact with Alma after that Thanksgiving incident, and now he'll have to be sitting in the front pew next to her! Even if they don't socialize much, they're going to have to interact some as the parents of the bride, and at this point Ennis isn't just estranged from his ex-wife, he realizes that she knows he's gay. For that matter, Monroe probably does too - wouldn't he have wanted an explanation as to why she's screaming and apparently throwing plates as Ennis storms out? Chances are overwheliming neither of them will ever mention that to him for for somebody like Ennis it would be an excruciating kind of public exposure and his deciding to be there indicates a willingness to move outside that fear-bounded comfort zone. It's one of the few rays of hope at the end.

[welliwont]

I'm not sure what opinion you think I'm expressing. You asked a rhetorical question "am I thick?" and I answered that there were things you'd overlooked or were dismissing. You can put what interpretations you like on that.

Well Marge, I guess I will tell you if you did not figure it out yourself.  I was referring to the first reply that you posted, the one that came to my e-mail inbox.   Y'see Marge, when you post a post, the people who have previously posted on the thread will get future posts to the same thread sent directly to their inbox.  Unless they disable the feature after they post.  So you see, your first post went to my in-box, and I was able to read your initial reply.  Then you edited it on the thread.  That was the post I was commenting on.

[Marge_Innavera]

Maybe another way that Jr. takes after Ennis...by the time she tells him about the wedding, seems like it's been planned for quite a while. I wonder if she put off telling her dad, worried, (same as he was to tell Jack about August), expecting Ennis to say exactly what he did at first, that he couldn't.

I planned my wedding long-distance over the phone, and I'm not sure it's been in the works very long. What she tells Ennis is the date, place and that Jenny will be singing and Monroe catering the reception. These two are family members, and if Jenny and family have been attending this Methodist Church, it might be just a matter of a week or so.

But she clearly does expect him to turn her down and not be there for her. And the very fact that she even asks her father to her wedding indicates how estranged Ennis is from even those he loves the most.

[Marge_Innavera]

Oh, geeze, Lee, "the one who doesn't appear again after Jack dies."  I'd always wondered about that. No wonder Jenny 'disappearing' reasonated.

Yes, but....

He does agree to attend the wedding, and according to what Junior tells him about her plans he will in fact hear the "angel" sing again on that day.

[Marge_Innavera]

Well Marge, I guess I will tell you if you did not figure it out yourself.  I was referring to the first reply that you posted, the one that came to my e-mail inbox.   Y'see Marge, when you post a post, the people who have previously posted on the thread will get future posts to the same thread sent directly to their inbox.  Unless they disable the feature after they post.  So you see, your first post went to my in-box, and I was able to read your initial reply.  Then you edited it on the thread.  That was the post I was commenting on.

One of the reasons a "modify" button is so necessary is that things look different in print than they do when spoken. Or to put it more simply for you, a flippant remark that would be just that in a RL conversation might look too aggressive posted on a forum. I often edit posts after reviewing them, for that reason.

It appears that a fictional character isn't the only person you have issues with, but that's your personal business. Happy New Year to you.

[belbbmfan]

One of my reactions the first time I ever saw that scene was a bit of sadness at her having to invite her own father to her wedding. I never invited my Dad and he would have been astounded if I had. And something about her tone of voice suggests that he's kept that barrier up between himself and even the people closest to him consistently enough that she doesn't exactly expect an affirmative answer.

Do you think her invitation included giving her away? She mentioned her stepfather catering the reception but nothing about that part of it.

I've enjoyed reading some of the posts here. You're right Marge, it was sad that Junior had to invite her Dad to her wedding. A wedding that was all planned and organised without him even knowing.

What struck me a another sign of how detached Ennis had become of this family was that he asked Junior 'So what's the occasion?' As if it just couldn't be a social visit by his daughter to see how he was doing. And that he didn't even knew she was dating Kurt...

[Marge_Innavera]

I've enjoyed reading some of the posts here. You're right Marge, it was sad that Junior had to invite her Dad to her wedding. A wedding that was all planned and organised without him even knowing.

What struck me a another sign of how detached Ennis had become of this family was that he asked Junior 'So what's the occasion?' As if it just couldn't be a social visit by his daughter to see how he was doing. And that he didn't even knew she was dating Kurt...  

Interesting parallel to his sister - that she "married a roughneck" too. Maybe that's one of the sources of him always expecting to be alone.

On the subject of parallels to Jack - in getting up to get the wine out of the refrigerator, he uses the same body language as when headed toward the tent in the second tent scene - thinking a moment, then coming to a decision and pushing on his knees to get up. Done very late in the day, but in the end he does make a decision on the side of love.