Author Topic: Mary Renault Book Discussion  (Read 79812 times)

Offline TXdoug

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Re: Mary Renault Book Discussion
« Reply #110 on: January 10, 2007, 08:50:51 pm »
I feel like I am in a University Literature classroom. I greatly appreciate the history and friendly and interesting discussion and comments by everyone. I bought my copy of TLOTW.  I may not have anything to contribute to the discussions but eagerly look forward to each post.

Doug

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Re: Mary Renault Book Discussion
« Reply #111 on: January 10, 2007, 09:37:27 pm »
I feel like I am in a University Literature classroom. I greatly appreciate the history and friendly and interesting discussion and comments by everyone. I bought my copy of TLOTW.  I may not have anything to contribute to the discussions but eagerly look forward to each post.

Doug


YAY!

Another reader (who is MORE than welcome to jump any time!!)

welcome Doug!!

Offline Zander

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Re: Mary Renault Book Discussion
« Reply #112 on: January 11, 2007, 06:05:59 am »
Hey Zander!

Welcome! Good to see you here. Grab a copy of "The Last of the Wine" and join our Mary Renault Book Club. We're only up to chapter 2, so you haven't missed a lot.

(Aside to Jess - Gad, we're only up to chapter 2 and have already filled eight pages!!!)  :o

Kerry   :)
I've already read it - I think I've read all the Mary Renault books she was one of my favorites.  I'm following where you've got up to and interst should be given to the relationship between Alexis and his father (and also his father's past history  ;) )  My comment was a generalisation that although there are relationships between the sexes, we don't get the unimpeachable evidence of a character we would recognise as "homosexual" / Gay in our modern context.

Offline Kerry

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Re: Mary Renault Book Discussion
« Reply #113 on: January 11, 2007, 06:59:47 am »
I feel like I am in a University Literature classroom. I greatly appreciate the history and friendly and interesting discussion and comments by everyone. I bought my copy of TLOTW.  I may not have anything to contribute to the discussions but eagerly look forward to each post.

Doug

Hey Doug!

Great to have you with us. You are very welcome to comment at any time. Glad to hear you have a copy of TLOTW and are following along with us.

Welcome!

Kerry    ;)
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Offline Kerry

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Re: Mary Renault Book Discussion
« Reply #114 on: January 11, 2007, 07:06:09 am »
I KNOW!! I was thinking "Lort we are gonna be six months on this one book! But I am sure having fun with it!

(You tell me if/when you want to speed up...like I said I am having fun!)

Cain't say that there's any way we can speed up. All this stuff must be discussed before we can progress! And besides, I'm enjoying this sooo much!  :)
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Offline Kerry

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Re: Mary Renault Book Discussion
« Reply #115 on: January 11, 2007, 07:20:57 am »
My comments re the Rhodian (sorry they're late - busy day at the coalface today):

“Witch” is an appropriate word. And I doubt that her name is Glinda! I suspect the coven she belongs to is strictly of the “black” variety! Speaking of names, what is the Rhodian’s name? And what is Alexias’ father’s name, for that matter?

Appears to me that if Alexias doesn’t like someone, he doesn’t tell us their names. As though he doesn't want to remember them, and wants us to forget them, too.

Whereas, if he likes someone, he doesn’t hesitate in giving us the name. For example, even the dinner guest, seen but fleetingly, who pissed in the courtyard, was given a name - Alkibiades. Granted, he did have the beauty of an incarnate god and was, therefore, memorable! Even making “water,” he was memorable!

Have I missed something here - with the names?

But back to the witch! She sounds to be despicable at every level and when viewed from any angle.

There’s not a lot more I can add to what you have already said, Jess. However, I have highlighted some parts of the text in my working photocopy and feel I may benefit by skimming through my notes here. Just to get the impression clear in my mind.

When Alexias first mentions her, he says, “my father engaged a nurse, a free woman from Rhodes.” From these few words, we gain a great deal of information. We can instantly place her within the social strata and constraints of the times. We know she’s not a slave. But she has no wealth or fortune of her own. Otherwise she wouldn’t be working as a nanny. Wouldn’t be working at all, in fact. And we know she’s from Rhodes. Ergo, not Greek. Ergo, inferior?

He further describes her as, “slim and swarthy, with a strain of Egypt in her.” Much as I want to hate her, I must say that the first image that came to mind when I read this was the beautiful portrait bust of Egyptian Queen Nefertiti. And though she is most surely psychologically flawed (if not demented), it hurts me to have to concede that she is probably physically attractive. I mean, why would a man as socially desirable and physically “beautiful” as Alexias’ father tolerate a frump in his bed? Your thoughts on this?

Alexias says, “when her hand lay heavy on me,” so we know that she beat him. And I agree with you, that it was probably part of her brief, to discipline him. I have no doubt that the father expected her to discipline Alexias, and would have left it to her, to decide what particular form that discipline took.

Alexias advises that she had no “graces,” which verifies for me that she was low-born. Didn’t know how to conduct herself within polite society. Didn't know how to make small talk, conduct herself appropriately at table, use the cutlery, what glass to use, etc. I’m sure we’ve all known people like this. They look stunning – until they open their mouths! Any catwalk model could be used as an example (meow!).

For Alexias to observe that, “she seemed as lasting a part of my house as the porch or the well,” I understand that she was bossy, overbearing and omnipresent. A formidably malevolent force for a child to contend with, indeed!

I have no doubt that she was cunning and manipulative. She knew that her days were numbered, which is why she discouraged Alexias’ progress. I believe, in an effort to keep him young (immature), meaning the services of a nanny would continue to be required.

And the fact that she wrung the neck of Alexias’ little kitten is an absolutely unconscionably despicable act. Pity that cat didn’t have one of the submachine guns David’s sniper kitties carry! That would have surely taught her a lesson! This proves to me that she is certainly sadistic, and probably also mentally unbalanced. She would certainly try any underhand trick to stay in that cushy job. Not to mention that comfy, warm bed!

And in the cruelty stakes, you can’t get much lower than telling a little boy that he was a runt who came close to being exposed at birth, for wolves to devour, for no other reason than that he was just too plain butt-ugly to live! Yep, she’s one hell of an evil cow alright!

Let's discuss Socrates briefly (I promise!!!) before progressing to chapter 3. Comments?
« Last Edit: January 11, 2007, 07:23:45 am by Kerry »
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Re: Mary Renault Book Discussion
« Reply #116 on: January 11, 2007, 08:05:10 am »
no we do not have Alexias's fathers name at this time (although it will be casually mentioned later)

Just my thoughts on the name thing...MR is putting us firmly in the mind of this child, although we do get flashs of the adult Alexias in the text, and children are very self centered. We get the important names (to a child) the name of his  namesake and I think we get the name of Alcibiades for later...but a young child doesn't think of his parent as anything but daddy. (Just my 2 cents)

now the Rhodian! we are not going to hear anything good of her (and can you blame him!) even the description...slim and 'swarthy'?? no woman would want to be described as SWARTHY!! that invokes a big ol hairy neanderthal!! yes, it means dark and all but yuck! LOL! and to imply that she is some half breed...(strain of Egyptian) ALexias is subtly insulting her.


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Re: Mary Renault Book Discussion
« Reply #117 on: January 11, 2007, 08:17:32 am »
now Socrates...

before I get into HIM...I wanted to comment on Alexias. Being under the control of the Rhodian, with her abuse both physical (which I don't think was too awful - his father surely would have noticed overt bruising or welts) and mental (which I think was her main weapon - leaving no marks and being VERY effective at making him act withdrawn and sullen) she has affected his social developement and his self esteem....he says he has no friends and is considered the 'low man' at school...HE is the one forced to sit with the 'old man'

"I could see at once that I, who was always alone, was the one who would be made a fool of by having to share his bench"

but we see his resilience and a flash of his defiance as he continues

"so I pretended not to mind, and sat there of my own accord"

in spite of her best efforts, the Rhodian had not destroyed his spirit!!

Offline Kerry

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Re: Mary Renault Book Discussion
« Reply #118 on: January 11, 2007, 08:21:22 am »
Just my thoughts on the name thing...MR is putting us firmly in the mind of this child, although we do get flashs of the adult Alexias in the text, and children are very self centered. We get the important names (to a child) the name of his  namesake and I think we get the name of Alcibiades for later...but a young child doesn't think of his parent as anything but daddy. (Just my 2 cents)

Once again, Jess, your insight staggers me! I keep forgetting to look through the eyes of a child. And you are absolutley correct about the names. At his age I had a Mummy and Daddy in my life, not an Emily and Raymond! You are also bringing the insight that only a mother can bring - "children are very self centred," you said. Very true.

  
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Re: Mary Renault Book Discussion
« Reply #119 on: January 11, 2007, 09:50:02 am »
One thing about all her books is that they "feel" real, like she's personally experienced these things, her Bagoas character was tremendous and she really can get you hot for the guys described!  The only thing that irks me is that most of the characters portray this concept of "greek love" where the sexual attractions are broadened to include both male and female. She doesn't really write about any truly gay male / female only characters - or is my memory slipping  ::)

Bagoas is WAY my favorite of all her characters. He is just an amazing personality....he went thru so much in his young life yet never lost himself...

She truly created a 'real' person from just a couple of snippets of historical references.

and I think he is the only one of her characters that are depicted as strictly gay....(by circumstance maybe but still) and she was much more graphic with the sexual aspects of Bagoas's life...