Author Topic: A different viewpoint  (Read 12270 times)

Offline serious crayons

  • Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,712
A different viewpoint
« on: January 13, 2007, 08:30:17 pm »
Here is a recent post from imdb by marlb42. It's an interesting and different view of the movie, so I'm posting it (with marlb42's permission) for anyone who would like to read and/or discuss it here.

A totally different viewpoint.........    
by marlb42     1 day ago (Fri Jan 12 2007 14:50:55 )    
Ignore this User | Report Abuse    Reply
UPDATED Fri Jan 12 2007 15:51:39
A a newbie (but I have already watched BBM at least 20 times) I have been reading a lot of these threads and also threads on the other boards and I have not seen my current interpretation anywhere,

I will admit that even though I am a female in my 40's I relate more to Ennis then any other character ever, especially in terms of the of the withdrawing from people and well the loneliness, and although I never had a Jack or Alma (people who cared that much about me) I do always make excuses to pull away or not even try to form relationships. Upon seeing BBM and getting obsessed over it I have vowed to change although I find it really hard to even meet people now.

Anyway I do take Ennis's point of view but, I now have some different theories then most I have read.

I think that the driving forces for the relationship was Ennis' fear of being abandoned by Jack, not just his homophobia (which exists), or not being able to admit to his love.

On BBM after TS 2 I think Ennis saw themselve as a team. It was Ennis who said "What if we need to work for Aguire again, did you think of that Jack". I think that despite Alma (who he never talked about on the mountain after the first day or so}, he was so in love with Jack and he thought they would be a pair. In fact I started to think the 'one-shot thing, I ain't queer' means that there couldn't be any other man ever for him except for Jack. And it was Ennis who started the dozy embrace.

Then Ennis was devastated to come off the mountain, Jack wasn't and Ennis was devastated by that. In fact when they rode down the mountain, Jack spit in Ennis's path, which I think Ennis took to mean its over.

Ennis was waiting for Jack to say something at the truck, he never did. Ennis broke down after that because he thought that Jack was abandoning him like his parents(yes, in his mind) and his brother and sister did before.

At the motel Ennis said, "I thought that I would never see you again", meaning he believed during those four years Jack left him forever and did abandon him too. I believe that Ennis was never able to forget that Jack had once left him over all the remaining years. I think that that despite all the other reasons, Ennis was always afraid that it would happen again and that is what held him back.

By the time of the lake Ennis was even more sure that he would lose Jack, and that was the real reason why it was getting harder and harder to meet him, not just financial. After all, Jack had a much better life and Ennis's was a total mess, so began to deliberately avoid him so he would't have to face it.

"I did once" and "I wish I could quit you" was the culmination of all Ennis's fears, and that was what set him towards his anger and his last terrible breakdown, he saw that he did lose Jack. After that he was a totally broken man (the bus stop)

I think that when he found the shirts, the revelation was that for the first time Ennis realized not just that he loved Jack or that Jack loved him, but that Jack did love him truly after that summer, and that he really didn't ever mean to abandon him at all like everyone else had done. It was Ennis's growing fear of abandonment that led to everything going bad. I truly believe that throughout the whole relationships Ennis was always trying to show Jack the truth (the Kiss, sending a prayer of thanks etc.) but Jack never realized the true intensity of Ennis's feelings.

When Ennis asked Junior if Kurt loves her and then he looks out the window for a long time it was because he finally knew after all those years, because of the shirts, that Jack really did love him at 19, and never really meant to abandom him.

I don't agree with so many of you that the whole tragedy was Ennis's fault

I don't know, its all just my opinion, and I had to get it out. Why, I don't know....

Offline Garry_LH

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 11,245
Re: A different viewpoint
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2007, 10:42:44 pm »
marlb42 is very right about this tragedy not being just Ennis's fault. Jack did miss really seeing how upset Ennis was when they had to come down off the mountain. Their wrassling, turning into a fight, it might have been the biggest missed opportunity in their existence. If Jack was smart, he would have come up with something like them having a place, where Jack could say Ennis was the hired hand and foreman in training. Folks are always wanting to see something they can understand. Back then, there might have been speculation, but most folks would have gone along with their story.

I believe marlb42 is on the right track with Ennis's fear of abandonment. Though, I do feel his fear of what would happen if other folks knew about him and Jack added substantially to their problems. Again, they both missed the opportunity when they separated in Signal. Ennis, by not starting out about how he was sorry for punching Jack like that, and at least a hint of why. And Jack, for not seeing Ennis hung around to help with the old truck, as Ennis was looking for some sign from Jack they might be more than two guys all alone on a mountain one summer. Looking for some hint, Jack really did want Ennis in his life.

It's what drives me nutz the worst with this story and film. These two men were so obviously meant to be together, it makes me want to step in the film and slap them both up side of the head, and say, listen here...

Jack the idea man, and Ennis the one with the fortitude to make it work. Together, they could have been nothing more than a success at what they set their minds to. Love and Life, they complemented one another and they  belonged together.  As it came out, Ennis's very fortitude and sense of right and wrong added up to Ennis not being able to step beyond the fear of what others might think of or do to them, if they left their families, and ran off and set up that little cow and calf operation together. And Jack, who if he had really believed in them as a couple, he could have divorced Lurrene, took off for one of their get togethers in Wyoming, loaded Ennis up in his truck, and drug Ennis up to his folks place. “Well.. here we are Ennis, now what you gonna do?”
It could be like this, just like this... always.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,165
  • "He somebody you cowboy'd with?"
Re: A different viewpoint
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2007, 11:56:56 pm »
Interesting thoughts, but, at the risk of seeming picky, I have a problem with this statement from marlb42's original post:

Ennis was waiting for Jack to say something at the truck, he never did.

I've just watched the movie again, through to Ennis's gut cramps, and I'd say that Jack did say something at the truck. He asked Ennis if Ennis was going to "do this again next summer," and Ennis said, "Maybe not," which, in effect, turned out to be "No."

This seems to me that Jack gave Ennis an "opening," and Ennis more or less slammed it shut, so there was nothing more for Jack to do except get in his truck and drive away.

But maybe I'm misunderstanding what the original writer meant?
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

injest

  • Guest
Re: A different viewpoint
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2007, 12:09:41 am »
hmm..

maybe

maybe Ennis was so upset that he couldn't take the opening...he didn't want to 'do this again next summer' he was hurting too much to see that far...he wanted to keep doing it NOW...

and was maybe a bit angry at Jack for not acting as upset as HE felt...

Offline serious crayons

  • Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,712
Re: A different viewpoint
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2007, 12:21:32 am »
I've just watched the movie again, through to Ennis's gut cramps, and I'd say that Jack did say something at the truck. He asked Ennis if Ennis was going to "do this again next summer," and Ennis said, "Maybe not," which, in effect, turned out to be "No."

This seems to me that Jack gave Ennis an "opening," and Ennis more or less slammed it shut, so there was nothing more for Jack to do except get in his truck and drive away.

I think they're at odds at this point. Both want to say something more, but neither knows how. Ennis says "maybe not" because, after all, he does have that commitment to get married -- is he going to cancel that when things are this uncertain and awkward? But he lingers there, hoping Jack will say something else, but Jack doesn't. They're both "to blame," but I blame Jack slightly more, if only because he's not as hung up and tongue-tied as Ennis -- he could more easily break through the impasse.

maybe Ennis was so upset that he couldn't take the opening...he didn't want to 'do this again next summer' he was hurting too much to see that far...he wanted to keep doing it NOW...and was maybe a bit angry at Jack for not acting as upset as HE felt...

This comes closer to how I see it, Jess.

Ennis gave Jack at least ‘maybe’: “I guess I’ll see you around, hunh?” Sounds like at least a mild invite to me.

Oh, Barbara, this just came in while I was writing. Yes, that's what I think. He's hoping Jack will respond to that question -- that's why he lingers. But Jack, also feeling a bit rejected, just shrugs and says, "yeah."

Quote
(Little did he know how right he was, seeing all those Jack doppelgangers, and the first just a few seconds later...)

 :laugh:


Offline Ellemeno

  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • ********
  • Posts: 15,367
Re: A different viewpoint
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2007, 12:27:10 am »
Thanks for posting this, Katherine.  I want to wrap Ennis in a dozy embrace of comfort.  I haven't welled up with tears in months over this film, but here I am now...

As to Jack's "You going to do this again next summer?"  - I can see Jack's point of view that the unspoken was "Because this was the most wonderful summer of my life and I want to be able to look forward to more."  But from Ennis's point of view, I could see it not sounding like much more than something to which you would probably reply "See you round then."  They were only 19.

Garry, I love what you wrote too.

Get marlb42 here!  :)

Offline Ellemeno

  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • ********
  • Posts: 15,367
Re: A different viewpoint
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2007, 12:28:22 am »
Ennis gave Jack at least ?maybe?: ?I guess I?ll see you around, hunh?? Sounds like at least a mild invite to me. (Little did he know how right he was, seeing all those Jack doppelgangers, and the first just a few seconds later...)

Jack Twist?  Jack Doppelganger!

:)

Offline serious crayons

  • Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,712
Re: A different viewpoint
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2007, 01:58:11 am »
Get marlb42 here!  :)

Well, I sure encouraged her to stop by!

Offline Jeff Wrangler

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,165
  • "He somebody you cowboy'd with?"
Re: A different viewpoint
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2007, 03:11:40 am »
hmm..

maybe

maybe Ennis was so upset that he couldn't take the opening...he didn't want to 'do this again next summer' he was hurting too much to see that far...he wanted to keep doing it NOW...

and was maybe a bit angry at Jack for not acting as upset as HE felt...

Could well be true, Jess, but, with all due respect, I think it's beside my point, which was simply that in my view, to say that Jack "said nothing" by his truck outside Aguirre's office is factually inaccurate. Jack asked Ennis if he would come back next summer, and Ennis, in effect, said "no," which pretty much shut down the conversation.

And, BTW, I'm not saying that I disagree that Ennis feared losing Jack. Even after nearly 20 years it's abundantly clear to me that Ennis did fear losing Jack. My point is just, very strictly, that I think what happened outside Aguirre's office when they came down off that mountain in August of 1963 does not support marlb42's position.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Cameron

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,747
Re: A different viewpoint
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2007, 08:58:12 am »
Hi all of you, I decided to come out of lurkdom to respond, again I do thank latjoreme for posting my thoughts.

Anyway I am fully aware that Jack asked 'are you coming back next summer" and then Ennis said he's getting married in November and then see you around.  What I specifically originally meant and I see now wasn't clear was that after Ennis said see you a round, he still  stood near the truck for a while as if he was still waiting for Jack to say something more so that they should stay together now and not separate.

On the mountain Ennis waited for Jack to take the lead, Jack was always riding ahead of Ennis and when the sheep were mixed up Ennis asked Jack 'what do we do now?', I think that Ennis knew that the sheep had to separated, I think that meant that the relationship was up to Jack at that point.

I think that because of Jack's coldness about leaving the mountain, and the fight, and Jack's spiting in front of Ennis path on the way down, and Jacks rejection of the cig, I think Ennis took all those things to mean it was over for Jack.

At the truck, because Ennis was feeling so rejected, he did not take  the 'are you coming back next year' as "I love you and I don't want to lose your" which he wanted to hear, I think he took it also as a rejection and that the whole thing did not mean that much to Jack at that point.

So when I wrote that Ennis waited, I meant that after that Ennis still waited, he did not leave after he said 'see you around' he still stood at the truck at that point in hope that Jack would say something more.