Author Topic: A different viewpoint  (Read 12339 times)

Offline serious crayons

  • Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,756
A different viewpoint
« on: January 13, 2007, 08:30:17 pm »
Here is a recent post from imdb by marlb42. It's an interesting and different view of the movie, so I'm posting it (with marlb42's permission) for anyone who would like to read and/or discuss it here.

A totally different viewpoint.........    
by marlb42     1 day ago (Fri Jan 12 2007 14:50:55 )    
Ignore this User | Report Abuse    Reply
UPDATED Fri Jan 12 2007 15:51:39
A a newbie (but I have already watched BBM at least 20 times) I have been reading a lot of these threads and also threads on the other boards and I have not seen my current interpretation anywhere,

I will admit that even though I am a female in my 40's I relate more to Ennis then any other character ever, especially in terms of the of the withdrawing from people and well the loneliness, and although I never had a Jack or Alma (people who cared that much about me) I do always make excuses to pull away or not even try to form relationships. Upon seeing BBM and getting obsessed over it I have vowed to change although I find it really hard to even meet people now.

Anyway I do take Ennis's point of view but, I now have some different theories then most I have read.

I think that the driving forces for the relationship was Ennis' fear of being abandoned by Jack, not just his homophobia (which exists), or not being able to admit to his love.

On BBM after TS 2 I think Ennis saw themselve as a team. It was Ennis who said "What if we need to work for Aguire again, did you think of that Jack". I think that despite Alma (who he never talked about on the mountain after the first day or so}, he was so in love with Jack and he thought they would be a pair. In fact I started to think the 'one-shot thing, I ain't queer' means that there couldn't be any other man ever for him except for Jack. And it was Ennis who started the dozy embrace.

Then Ennis was devastated to come off the mountain, Jack wasn't and Ennis was devastated by that. In fact when they rode down the mountain, Jack spit in Ennis's path, which I think Ennis took to mean its over.

Ennis was waiting for Jack to say something at the truck, he never did. Ennis broke down after that because he thought that Jack was abandoning him like his parents(yes, in his mind) and his brother and sister did before.

At the motel Ennis said, "I thought that I would never see you again", meaning he believed during those four years Jack left him forever and did abandon him too. I believe that Ennis was never able to forget that Jack had once left him over all the remaining years. I think that that despite all the other reasons, Ennis was always afraid that it would happen again and that is what held him back.

By the time of the lake Ennis was even more sure that he would lose Jack, and that was the real reason why it was getting harder and harder to meet him, not just financial. After all, Jack had a much better life and Ennis's was a total mess, so began to deliberately avoid him so he would't have to face it.

"I did once" and "I wish I could quit you" was the culmination of all Ennis's fears, and that was what set him towards his anger and his last terrible breakdown, he saw that he did lose Jack. After that he was a totally broken man (the bus stop)

I think that when he found the shirts, the revelation was that for the first time Ennis realized not just that he loved Jack or that Jack loved him, but that Jack did love him truly after that summer, and that he really didn't ever mean to abandon him at all like everyone else had done. It was Ennis's growing fear of abandonment that led to everything going bad. I truly believe that throughout the whole relationships Ennis was always trying to show Jack the truth (the Kiss, sending a prayer of thanks etc.) but Jack never realized the true intensity of Ennis's feelings.

When Ennis asked Junior if Kurt loves her and then he looks out the window for a long time it was because he finally knew after all those years, because of the shirts, that Jack really did love him at 19, and never really meant to abandom him.

I don't agree with so many of you that the whole tragedy was Ennis's fault

I don't know, its all just my opinion, and I had to get it out. Why, I don't know....

Offline Garry_LH

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 11,245
Re: A different viewpoint
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2007, 10:42:44 pm »
marlb42 is very right about this tragedy not being just Ennis's fault. Jack did miss really seeing how upset Ennis was when they had to come down off the mountain. Their wrassling, turning into a fight, it might have been the biggest missed opportunity in their existence. If Jack was smart, he would have come up with something like them having a place, where Jack could say Ennis was the hired hand and foreman in training. Folks are always wanting to see something they can understand. Back then, there might have been speculation, but most folks would have gone along with their story.

I believe marlb42 is on the right track with Ennis's fear of abandonment. Though, I do feel his fear of what would happen if other folks knew about him and Jack added substantially to their problems. Again, they both missed the opportunity when they separated in Signal. Ennis, by not starting out about how he was sorry for punching Jack like that, and at least a hint of why. And Jack, for not seeing Ennis hung around to help with the old truck, as Ennis was looking for some sign from Jack they might be more than two guys all alone on a mountain one summer. Looking for some hint, Jack really did want Ennis in his life.

It's what drives me nutz the worst with this story and film. These two men were so obviously meant to be together, it makes me want to step in the film and slap them both up side of the head, and say, listen here...

Jack the idea man, and Ennis the one with the fortitude to make it work. Together, they could have been nothing more than a success at what they set their minds to. Love and Life, they complemented one another and they  belonged together.  As it came out, Ennis's very fortitude and sense of right and wrong added up to Ennis not being able to step beyond the fear of what others might think of or do to them, if they left their families, and ran off and set up that little cow and calf operation together. And Jack, who if he had really believed in them as a couple, he could have divorced Lurrene, took off for one of their get togethers in Wyoming, loaded Ennis up in his truck, and drug Ennis up to his folks place. “Well.. here we are Ennis, now what you gonna do?”
It could be like this, just like this... always.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,186
  • "He somebody you cowboy'd with?"
Re: A different viewpoint
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2007, 11:56:56 pm »
Interesting thoughts, but, at the risk of seeming picky, I have a problem with this statement from marlb42's original post:

Ennis was waiting for Jack to say something at the truck, he never did.

I've just watched the movie again, through to Ennis's gut cramps, and I'd say that Jack did say something at the truck. He asked Ennis if Ennis was going to "do this again next summer," and Ennis said, "Maybe not," which, in effect, turned out to be "No."

This seems to me that Jack gave Ennis an "opening," and Ennis more or less slammed it shut, so there was nothing more for Jack to do except get in his truck and drive away.

But maybe I'm misunderstanding what the original writer meant?
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

injest

  • Guest
Re: A different viewpoint
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2007, 12:09:41 am »
hmm..

maybe

maybe Ennis was so upset that he couldn't take the opening...he didn't want to 'do this again next summer' he was hurting too much to see that far...he wanted to keep doing it NOW...

and was maybe a bit angry at Jack for not acting as upset as HE felt...

Offline serious crayons

  • Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,756
Re: A different viewpoint
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2007, 12:21:32 am »
I've just watched the movie again, through to Ennis's gut cramps, and I'd say that Jack did say something at the truck. He asked Ennis if Ennis was going to "do this again next summer," and Ennis said, "Maybe not," which, in effect, turned out to be "No."

This seems to me that Jack gave Ennis an "opening," and Ennis more or less slammed it shut, so there was nothing more for Jack to do except get in his truck and drive away.

I think they're at odds at this point. Both want to say something more, but neither knows how. Ennis says "maybe not" because, after all, he does have that commitment to get married -- is he going to cancel that when things are this uncertain and awkward? But he lingers there, hoping Jack will say something else, but Jack doesn't. They're both "to blame," but I blame Jack slightly more, if only because he's not as hung up and tongue-tied as Ennis -- he could more easily break through the impasse.

maybe Ennis was so upset that he couldn't take the opening...he didn't want to 'do this again next summer' he was hurting too much to see that far...he wanted to keep doing it NOW...and was maybe a bit angry at Jack for not acting as upset as HE felt...

This comes closer to how I see it, Jess.

Ennis gave Jack at least ‘maybe’: “I guess I’ll see you around, hunh?” Sounds like at least a mild invite to me.

Oh, Barbara, this just came in while I was writing. Yes, that's what I think. He's hoping Jack will respond to that question -- that's why he lingers. But Jack, also feeling a bit rejected, just shrugs and says, "yeah."

Quote
(Little did he know how right he was, seeing all those Jack doppelgangers, and the first just a few seconds later...)

 :laugh:


Offline Ellemeno

  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • ********
  • Posts: 15,367
Re: A different viewpoint
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2007, 12:27:10 am »
Thanks for posting this, Katherine.  I want to wrap Ennis in a dozy embrace of comfort.  I haven't welled up with tears in months over this film, but here I am now...

As to Jack's "You going to do this again next summer?"  - I can see Jack's point of view that the unspoken was "Because this was the most wonderful summer of my life and I want to be able to look forward to more."  But from Ennis's point of view, I could see it not sounding like much more than something to which you would probably reply "See you round then."  They were only 19.

Garry, I love what you wrote too.

Get marlb42 here!  :)

Offline Ellemeno

  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • ********
  • Posts: 15,367
Re: A different viewpoint
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2007, 12:28:22 am »
Ennis gave Jack at least ?maybe?: ?I guess I?ll see you around, hunh?? Sounds like at least a mild invite to me. (Little did he know how right he was, seeing all those Jack doppelgangers, and the first just a few seconds later...)

Jack Twist?  Jack Doppelganger!

:)

Offline serious crayons

  • Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,756
Re: A different viewpoint
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2007, 01:58:11 am »
Get marlb42 here!  :)

Well, I sure encouraged her to stop by!

Offline Jeff Wrangler

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,186
  • "He somebody you cowboy'd with?"
Re: A different viewpoint
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2007, 03:11:40 am »
hmm..

maybe

maybe Ennis was so upset that he couldn't take the opening...he didn't want to 'do this again next summer' he was hurting too much to see that far...he wanted to keep doing it NOW...

and was maybe a bit angry at Jack for not acting as upset as HE felt...

Could well be true, Jess, but, with all due respect, I think it's beside my point, which was simply that in my view, to say that Jack "said nothing" by his truck outside Aguirre's office is factually inaccurate. Jack asked Ennis if he would come back next summer, and Ennis, in effect, said "no," which pretty much shut down the conversation.

And, BTW, I'm not saying that I disagree that Ennis feared losing Jack. Even after nearly 20 years it's abundantly clear to me that Ennis did fear losing Jack. My point is just, very strictly, that I think what happened outside Aguirre's office when they came down off that mountain in August of 1963 does not support marlb42's position.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Cameron

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,747
Re: A different viewpoint
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2007, 08:58:12 am »
Hi all of you, I decided to come out of lurkdom to respond, again I do thank latjoreme for posting my thoughts.

Anyway I am fully aware that Jack asked 'are you coming back next summer" and then Ennis said he's getting married in November and then see you around.  What I specifically originally meant and I see now wasn't clear was that after Ennis said see you a round, he still  stood near the truck for a while as if he was still waiting for Jack to say something more so that they should stay together now and not separate.

On the mountain Ennis waited for Jack to take the lead, Jack was always riding ahead of Ennis and when the sheep were mixed up Ennis asked Jack 'what do we do now?', I think that Ennis knew that the sheep had to separated, I think that meant that the relationship was up to Jack at that point.

I think that because of Jack's coldness about leaving the mountain, and the fight, and Jack's spiting in front of Ennis path on the way down, and Jacks rejection of the cig, I think Ennis took all those things to mean it was over for Jack.

At the truck, because Ennis was feeling so rejected, he did not take  the 'are you coming back next year' as "I love you and I don't want to lose your" which he wanted to hear, I think he took it also as a rejection and that the whole thing did not mean that much to Jack at that point.

So when I wrote that Ennis waited, I meant that after that Ennis still waited, he did not leave after he said 'see you around' he still stood at the truck at that point in hope that Jack would say something more.



Offline Penthesilea

  • Town Administration
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 14,745
Re: A different viewpoint
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2007, 10:53:16 am »
Hi marl42, welcome to BetterMost!

I agree with you that Ennis fear of getting abandoned and rejected is a major driving force for him. And I also think that it's sometimes overlooked or at least too less noticed.
He was abandoned by his parents, then his sister, his brother and finally Alma abandoned him too. Add the loss of his childhood innocence (if he ever was allowed to have something like that, thinking of his father) at age nine and what you see is a life fill of loss from an early age on.
And on top of all that, he lost Jack in the end  :'(.

I also agree that withdrawing himself is a safety mechanism and that it would have been hard for Ennis to open up fully to Jack and to commit himself to their relationship fully, even without his internal homophobia.
What I don't agree with, is that said things would have been impossible for him in any case, even without homophobia. Hard, yes, but he had the potential to overcome it. He trusted Jack immensly. Just the simple fact that he did fall in love with Jack at all, that he did what he believed to be wrong with Jack on Brokeback and his easiness around Jack (happy tussle) is evidence of how much he was willing and able to give himself to Jack.
Both, his internal, and the external homophobia of their society was what made ranching up for them impossible. That's what the movie is about.

Quote
I don't agree with so many of you that the whole tragedy was Ennis's fault

You're preaching to the choir here...  I'm so with you on that  :).

Hi all of you, I decided to come out of lurkdom to respond, again I do thank latjoreme for posting my thoughts.

Anyway I am fully aware that Jack asked 'are you coming back next summer" and then Ennis said he's getting married in November and then see you around.  What I specifically originally meant and I see now wasn't clear was that after Ennis said see you a round, he still  stood near the truck for a while as if he was still waiting for Jack to say something more so that they should stay together now and not separate.

On the mountain Ennis waited for Jack to take the lead, Jack was always riding ahead of Ennis and when the sheep were mixed up Ennis asked Jack 'what do we do now?', I think that Ennis knew that the sheep had to separated, I think that meant that the relationship was up to Jack at that point.

I think that because of Jack's coldness about leaving the mountain, and the fight, and Jack's spiting in front of Ennis path on the way down, and Jacks rejection of the cig, I think Ennis took all those things to mean it was over for Jack.

At the truck, because Ennis was feeling so rejected, he did not take  the 'are you coming back next year' as "I love you and I don't want to lose your" which he wanted to hear, I think he took it also as a rejection and that the whole thing did not mean that much to Jack at that point.

So when I wrote that Ennis waited, I meant that after that Ennis still waited, he did not leave after he said 'see you around' he still stood at the truck at that point in hope that Jack would say something more.

Agreed. I also think Jack was far too chipper on that day and Ennis draw the conclusion that for Jack it's not such a big deal to come down the mountain a month early.

The scene at Jack's truck: From my very first viewing on, I was waiting for Jack to say something more. I want to scream at him in this very moment every time I see it. Ennis was waiting. He was lingering because he didn't want to go. Just yesterday, I asked why Jack didn't say anything to stop Ennis on another thread. I know he's hurt and sour from that punch, then Ennis says no to his proposal regarding next summer, Ennis talks of marrying Alma again - all founded reasons, but still...*sigh*  :(

Offline Jeff Wrangler

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,186
  • "He somebody you cowboy'd with?"
Re: A different viewpoint
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2007, 03:55:50 pm »
Hi all of you, I decided to come out of lurkdom to respond, again I do thank latjoreme for posting my thoughts.

Welcome to Bettermost, marlb42! Pull up a chair, have a cuppa coffee, a piece a cherry cake!  :D

(And thanks for the elaboration on your thoughts!)

Jeff
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Ellemeno

  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • ********
  • Posts: 15,367
Re: A different viewpoint
« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2007, 04:03:33 pm »
Hi marlb42, I'm glad you're here.  I look forward to seeing your future posts.  Clarissa

squashcourt

  • Guest
Re: A different viewpoint
« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2007, 06:15:51 pm »
Here is a recent post from imdb by marlb42. It's an interesting and different view of the movie, so I'm posting it (with marlb42's permission) for anyone who would like to read and/or discuss it here.

A totally different viewpoint.........    
by marlb42     1 day ago (Fri Jan 12 2007 14:50:55 )    
Ignore this User | Report Abuse    Reply
UPDATED Fri Jan 12 2007 15:51:39
A a newbie (but I have already watched BBM at least 20 times) I have been reading a lot of these threads and also threads on the other boards and I have not seen my current interpretation anywhere,

I will admit that even though I am a female in my 40's I relate more to Ennis then any other character ever, especially in terms of the of the withdrawing from people and well the loneliness, and although I never had a Jack or Alma (people who cared that much about me) I do always make excuses to pull away or not even try to form relationships. Upon seeing BBM and getting obsessed over it I have vowed to change although I find it really hard to even meet people now.

Anyway I do take Ennis's point of view but, I now have some different theories then most I have read.

I think that the driving forces for the relationship was Ennis' fear of being abandoned by Jack, not just his homophobia (which exists), or not being able to admit to his love.

On BBM after TS 2 I think Ennis saw themselve as a team. It was Ennis who said "What if we need to work for Aguire again, did you think of that Jack". I think that despite Alma (who he never talked about on the mountain after the first day or so}, he was so in love with Jack and he thought they would be a pair. In fact I started to think the 'one-shot thing, I ain't queer' means that there couldn't be any other man ever for him except for Jack. And it was Ennis who started the dozy embrace.

Then Ennis was devastated to come off the mountain, Jack wasn't and Ennis was devastated by that. In fact when they rode down the mountain, Jack spit in Ennis's path, which I think Ennis took to mean its over.

Ennis was waiting for Jack to say something at the truck, he never did. Ennis broke down after that because he thought that Jack was abandoning him like his parents(yes, in his mind) and his brother and sister did before.

At the motel Ennis said, "I thought that I would never see you again", meaning he believed during those four years Jack left him forever and did abandon him too. I believe that Ennis was never able to forget that Jack had once left him over all the remaining years. I think that that despite all the other reasons, Ennis was always afraid that it would happen again and that is what held him back.

By the time of the lake Ennis was even more sure that he would lose Jack, and that was the real reason why it was getting harder and harder to meet him, not just financial. After all, Jack had a much better life and Ennis's was a total mess, so began to deliberately avoid him so he would't have to face it.

"I did once" and "I wish I could quit you" was the culmination of all Ennis's fears, and that was what set him towards his anger and his last terrible breakdown, he saw that he did lose Jack. After that he was a totally broken man (the bus stop)

I think that when he found the shirts, the revelation was that for the first time Ennis realized not just that he loved Jack or that Jack loved him, but that Jack did love him truly after that summer, and that he really didn't ever mean to abandon him at all like everyone else had done. It was Ennis's growing fear of abandonment that led to everything going bad. I truly believe that throughout the whole relationships Ennis was always trying to show Jack the truth (the Kiss, sending a prayer of thanks etc.) but Jack never realized the true intensity of Ennis's feelings.

When Ennis asked Junior if Kurt loves her and then he looks out the window for a long time it was because he finally knew after all those years, because of the shirts, that Jack really did love him at 19, and never really meant to abandom him.

I don't agree with so many of you that the whole tragedy was Ennis's fault

I don't know, its all just my opinion, and I had to get it out. Why, I don't know....


Wowwwww !!!!

So well described and I can't agree more . . . sure is how I generally feel.

Try not to be sad, though ---


Warmest affection,
Pierre -   ;)

Offline jpwagoneer1964

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,720
  • Me and my 1951 DeSoto Suburban
Re: A different viewpoint
« Reply #14 on: January 15, 2007, 12:19:22 pm »
Good view point. I don;t think Jack's spitting had any significance.
Thank you Heath and Jake for showing us Ennis and Jack,  teaching us how much they loved one another.

Offline Cameron

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,747
Re: A different viewpoint
« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2007, 12:48:37 pm »
Wowwwww !!!!

So well described and I can't agree more . . . sure is how I generally feel.

Try not to be sad, though ---


Warmest affection,
Pierre -   ;)

Thanks so much . I so am glad you liked it

Your new here also?   I certainly am pleased to meet you as another 'newbie' to this site.



Offline Front-Ranger

  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 30,326
  • Brokeback got us good.
Re: A different viewpoint
« Reply #16 on: January 16, 2007, 01:19:34 pm »
Wasn't what Ennis really wanted was to have his (cherry) cake and eat it too? Marry Alma but still have Jack on the side? If so, no wonder he had trouble putting it into words. But it could explain why he took control of the situation so completely when Jack finally did show up again, manhandling him into the stairwell, telling Alma that they wouldn't be back that night, and redlining it to the Motel Siesta within 20 minutes.

"chewing gum and duct tape"

Offline serious crayons

  • Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,756
Re: A different viewpoint
« Reply #17 on: January 16, 2007, 02:20:44 pm »
Wasn't what Ennis really wanted was to have his (cherry) cake and eat it too? Marry Alma but still have Jack on the side? If so, no wonder he had trouble putting it into words.

I suppose you could put it that way, but the cake phrase usually implies you really want both things. Whereas I think he felt obliged to marry Alma, but really would have preferred to be with Jack. If things had gone differently in Signal, he might still have wound up marrying Alma -- because that's what you're supposed to do, in his mind -- or maybe not. In any case, they could have spent more time together, then parted on a better, more promising note.

Offline taj

  • Don't Say Much
  • *
  • Posts: 8
Re: A different viewpoint
« Reply #18 on: January 17, 2007, 06:58:21 am »
Quote
I think that the driving forces for the relationship was Ennis' fear of being abandoned by Jack, not just his homophobia (which exists), or not being able to admit to his love.
Well said there. It was a brave statement esp. when it is combined with the other two
I wanted to say that it was love that made them both hung unto the relationship, but I realised that it has always been the fear. Not just on Ennis but on Jack as well. It is amazing how fear can force us to such relationship. Certainly not healthy though IMHO
I used to phrase that to 'fear of loosing Jack', that even the thought of suicide would mean just that, loosing Jack. Ennis had to live as much as Jack needed to. What I'm not sure of is that, if Ennis ever thought about Jack's fear (of loosing him)
Quote
Ennis broke down after that because he thought that Jack was abandoning him like his parents(yes, in his mind) and his brother and sister did before.
I'll stick with my phrase above. I sincerely believe that instead of fearing, Ennis realised (although didn't understand then) that he had lost something instead of feeling abandoned

Offline taj

  • Don't Say Much
  • *
  • Posts: 8
Re: A different viewpoint
« Reply #19 on: January 17, 2007, 07:00:45 am »
On a second thought perhaps feeling abandoned is also appropriate  :)

Offline Garry_LH

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 11,245
Re: A different viewpoint
« Reply #20 on: January 19, 2007, 12:06:37 pm »
I feel one may need to be careful reading into what Ennis 'thought' of what he was feeling before the first reunion. At least in the short story, Ennis told Jack it took him a year to realize that he got sick that day they separated in Signal, cuze he should never have let Jack out of his sight. Which is about as close as Ennis ever got to saying the word love in relation to Jack. Then how much truth, half truth, or just out right ignoring of the truth did these two lay on one another, and themselves? I get the feeling, this is do to a good bit of their up bringing, as about anything else. Neither of these men seem to have been shown the possibilities and wonders that life could contain. In some ways, it's almost like neither of them fully believe they deserve to be happy. Though on Jack's part, it may be more a subconscious shooting of himself in the foot that keeps him from seeing beyond the immediate desire to making his dreams a reality.

I keep coming back to the very beginning of the story where Proulx tells us these were two poor high school drop outs going no where.  That poverty, that lack of a sense of accomplishment at even that early of an age, it might be as much an clue as to why these two feel trapped in their own existences, and a good reason both sought employment well beneath their actual skills.  Ad in, that neither one seems to have had a father that showed them any real affection or approval, and you've got two characters that were never given the tools to make the hard decisions in life. At the very least, their decisions were made with out the old saw of examining their own lives.

Rather than thinking through plans Ennis might accept so they could be together, Jack seems to react to situations with out being able to fully imagine a way to make them work. Say, Jack had put forth that little cow and calf operation as something he was going to set up, and he wanted to 'hire' Ennis as foreman. There are several ways Jack could have come at this, none of which he apparently ever considered. In the end, Jack's father seeing Jack as a dreamer without the whit to make his dreams reality, is closer to the truth than I really want to admit.

Then Ennis, for better or worse, seems to have had scared into him a sense of right and wrong, that did stand him in doing right by others as he saw it. It also gave him the ability to stick with a job and get it done. Once, he had set his mind to it. Of course, Ennis's sticking it out, no matter what, was also the better part of his own excuse and problem with ever letting him try to look at the world beyond 'if you don't have nothing, you don't need nothing'. It's only because of the power of what he he feels for Jack, that lets him keep coming back year after year. A love neither is willing to name. A dream Jack can't figure out how to make real. And Ennis, he feels so beat down by his own lack of imagination, he never gives himself the chance to really stick it out with Jack.  These two characters feel to me like they are trapped by the way they were raised. Or, the lack in the way they were raised. Jack, by his dad never showing him nothing. And Ennis, by being shown most all of the wrong things in what it takes to make life worth the living.

I just get the feeling neither of these men are fully capable of looking beyond their immediate need and desire for one another, to actually put into words or thought about where they are at in their lives. Let alone, where they might be, or how to get there. Perhaps, the very power of what they feel blocks them from thinking about their situation, for fear they might lose what little they do have with one another.

Oooo... ok, so much for my morning ramble from here to back and wondering if that makes some sense.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2007, 08:02:51 pm by Garry_LH »
It could be like this, just like this... always.

Offline Front-Ranger

  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 30,326
  • Brokeback got us good.
Re: A different viewpoint
« Reply #21 on: January 19, 2007, 03:46:48 pm »
It makes tons of sense to me, Garry. You captured the real feeling of tragedy about Ennis and Jack. And I feel even more so that way about them after seeing the rural Wyoming environment in which the characters are set. It is an environment in which impassive Nature is omnipotent, and mere men are just like insects crawling across a tablecloth.

"chewing gum and duct tape"

Offline Front-Ranger

  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 30,326
  • Brokeback got us good.
Re: A different viewpoint
« Reply #22 on: April 02, 2007, 08:44:34 pm »
I just had to read all these posts again because the sadness of the grieving plains rolls down on me when I think of my friend who drifted away after a misunderstanding and now is completely silent.  :'(

"chewing gum and duct tape"

Offline nic

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • Brokeback Mountain Resident
  • *****
  • Posts: 248
  • No man is an island
Re: A different viewpoint
« Reply #23 on: April 04, 2007, 10:09:04 am »
Aww, I'm sad to hear that FR - was it a forum friend? 

I'm also glad in a way as I checked out the thread seeing it near the top of updated threads whilst randomly hopping about the site as I do.  I like to do this, as I don't have the patience to normally get involved in threads where I'd love to write long replies but get too frustrated so I like just stumlbing upon gems here & there, of which there are many where BBM is concerned.

On this topic, it strongly bears it out that if one has strong Ennis-like tendencies then one is very protective of Ennis & tends towards the view that marlb42 posted. This has indeed brought about heated debates in other arenas where this view is stated then attacked by people that are more pro-Jack and there can be some very polarised views on whose "fault" it was.  I am very Ennis-like myself & could have written marlb42's post myself.  However, I found it very iluminating when I read the views of more pro-Jack fans as it was almost like discovering the story again or reading it through a different pair of spectacles! 

Ultimately they both had negative points concerning the relationship, as any partners do, & it is very interesting to hash through them but coming up with a consensus that all can agree on is never going to happen. It's fun as long as it doesn't go too negative, as it appears it might have done with someone in FR's case.  BBM made me realise this life is all about the human contacts we make, & the good ones should be cherished, whether online or in RL.
Old Brokeback got us good and it sure ain't over

Offline serious crayons

  • Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,756
Re: A different viewpoint
« Reply #24 on: April 04, 2007, 01:13:12 pm »
BBM made me realise this life is all about the human contacts we make, & the good ones should be cherished, whether online or in RL.

Well put, Nic!

Scott6373

  • Guest
Re: A different viewpoint
« Reply #25 on: April 04, 2007, 01:21:04 pm »
Well put, Nic!


But isn't also a message about coming to terms with the reality of what does not work in our lives.  Changing those things, even if it means leaving people behind, that while we care for, we know in our heart of hearts keep us from being the person we're supposed to be.

Offline Cameron

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,747
Re: A different viewpoint
« Reply #26 on: April 04, 2007, 02:46:49 pm »
But isn't also a message about coming to terms with the reality of what does not work in our lives.  Changing those things, even if it means leaving people behind, that while we care for, we know in our heart of hearts keep us from being the person we're supposed to be.

What great thoughts here.  It is nice to see my old post from IMDB brought up again here.  Scott, great post but I have a question.  It is really possibly to leave behind people that one cares about, really cares about?  Even it they are ultimately stopping one from being the person one wants to be and if even they are worse than that, it is still possible to care.  I guess some, yes, but others I don't know.

Your post made me wonder.



Scott6373

  • Guest
Re: A different viewpoint
« Reply #27 on: April 04, 2007, 02:50:53 pm »
What great thoughts here.  It is nice to see my old post from IMDB brought up again here.  Scott, great post but I have a question.  It is really possibly to leave behind people that one cares about, really cares about?  Even it they are ultimately stopping one from being the person one wants to be and if even they are worse than that, it is still possible to care.  I guess some, yes, but others I don't know.

Your post made me wonder.

Yes I do believe it's possible, and sometimes even vital.  There have been people in my life that I have cared a great deal about, but they made choices that put them on a different path than me:  one that I couldn't and shouldn't follow them on.

Offline nic

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • Brokeback Mountain Resident
  • *****
  • Posts: 248
  • No man is an island
Re: A different viewpoint
« Reply #28 on: April 04, 2007, 05:54:37 pm »
Do you think Jack should have given up on Ennis then?

I find it hard to cut ties with certain people, because I rarely make meaningful ties with anyone so I really place a lot of worth on any I do.  In some circumstances it is best to move on if you can, but you have to be comitted to believing you will be better off in the long run which can be so very difficult to do.
Old Brokeback got us good and it sure ain't over

injest

  • Guest
Re: A different viewpoint
« Reply #29 on: April 04, 2007, 07:32:48 pm »
Do you think Jack should have given up on Ennis then?

I find it hard to cut ties with certain people, because I rarely make meaningful ties with anyone so I really place a lot of worth on any I do.  In some circumstances it is best to move on if you can, but you have to be comitted to believing you will be better off in the long run which can be so very difficult to do.

and the problem with doing that is you may come to a time in your life when it gets easier to just cut people out rather than work with them....and that leads to being truly alone.

I know in my own life (for very good reasons) I cut contact with my own extended family. I don't go to family reunions, I don't send out Christmas cards...nothing....but just in the last couple of years I realized that that coping mechanism was destroying my friendships....because when the going got rough my thought was "Hey, I am tough! I can never see you again and won't even care!" so I walk away...

I am fortunate to have a small but determined group of friends...and one very special one that will tell me just how the cow ate the cabbage...and I am working on this...

Offline HerrKaiser

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,708
Re: A different viewpoint
« Reply #30 on: April 05, 2007, 09:57:18 am »
In spite of my overall tendency to criticize Jack's role in the reletionship, his 20-year desire/wish for the relationship to be something other than it was--and staying with Ennis--is a testament to one of his strong, good traits. Since about the time of the setting of the film's opening (mid 60s), we have been a 'throw away' society, and that includes people. I have tons of theories why such occurred, and grew, but fact is that injest's experience is not uncommon. Jack continued to choose to view the 'glass is half full' but more and more, as freedom (not the 'americana' sense but in terms of ability to move places, leave jobs/careers, reduce responsiblilites, etc) and affluence rise, people seem to be unwilling to accept 'half full' and insist all glasses be pretty close to overflowing.

Jack had what few people have, and definitely few gay men. His man, Ennis, was fully committed within the bounds he was able to work within. There was no evidence that Ennis was ever seeing another man, his inner, heartfelt love for Jack showed throuhout their 20 years together. No, Ennis was not the flowers every Friday and 'I love you' every phone call, but there is great comfort and pleasure to know and believe in something that need not be promoted every moment. Ennis was solid. Jack knew this and to his credit knew Ennis was a true blessing and a rare human. Jack's mistake, I think, was the disease of the past decades..the 'you can have it all disease' and while Jack's half full glass was a relationship from Heaven, he imo failed to be grateful and satisfied with Ennis as Ennis, and lost everything...for both of them.

Scott6373

  • Guest
Re: A different viewpoint
« Reply #31 on: April 05, 2007, 10:02:23 am »
Do you think Jack should have given up on Ennis then?

I find it hard to cut ties with certain people, because I rarely make meaningful ties with anyone so I really place a lot of worth on any I do.  In some circumstances it is best to move on if you can, but you have to be comitted to believing you will be better off in the long run which can be so very difficult to do.

That's a relatively subjective question that each of can answer from only our own unique perspective.  We can only rely on our own sensibilities to answer it.

Let's face it...if Jack were smarter, he would have and should have left Ennis behind.  It's not testament to anything but fear that he stayed with Ennis...or wished to.  Fear of losing, of never finding, of not knowing.  There were moments of happiness, but a lifetime of hurt and anguish.  Even if Jack had gone on to leave Lureen and find another man, it would be better than what he ended up with.  But...hindsight is 20/20

Offline Front-Ranger

  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 30,326
  • Brokeback got us good.
Re: A different viewpoint
« Reply #32 on: April 05, 2007, 10:24:38 am »
I tend to agree with you, Herr, rather than Scott (sorry Scott). What clinches it for me is when Lureen (blowing smoke off to the side) says, "You know, you been goin up to Wyoming all these years to fish, why can't your buddy come down here?" and Jack says, definitively, "Because the Bighorn Mountains ain't in Texas." I can't exactly explain why, but to me, that says that he gets all the satisfaction he needs in the Bighorn Mountains, 2x or 3x a year, anyway.

"chewing gum and duct tape"

Scott6373

  • Guest
Re: A different viewpoint
« Reply #33 on: April 05, 2007, 10:29:08 am »
I tend to agree with you, Herr, rather than Scott (sorry Scott). What clinches it for me is when Lureen (blowing smoke off to the side) says, "You know, you been goin up to Wyoming all these years to fish, why can't your buddy come down here?" and Jack says, definitively, "Because the Bighorn Mountains ain't in Texas." I can't exactly explain why, but to me, that says that he gets all the satisfaction he needs in the Bighorn Mountains, 2x or 3x a year, anyway.



No need to apologize.  All I can say is that if Jack did get all the "satisfaction" he needed, then it was a much sadder story than I had previously thought.

Offline serious crayons

  • Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,756
Re: A different viewpoint
« Reply #34 on: April 05, 2007, 10:46:00 am »
No need to apologize.  All I can say is that if Jack did get all the "satisfaction" he needed, then it was a much sadder story than I had previously thought.

I don't think Jack got all the satisfaction he needed. But I think the point was that he wouldn't have gotten the satisfaction he needed elsewhere, either.

Of course, like everything else, this is a little ambiguous. Maybe in truth he would have been more satisfied with Randall (or someone) than with Ennis -- maybe quantity would trump quality. And maybe in the end, Jack came to see it that way, himself. But for 20 years, the reason he hung on is that he didn't think he'd be happy with anyone but Ennis, so to him a few wonderful times a year was better than a lot of just OK times.

And good catch, Lee: "Because the Bighorn Mountains ain't in Texas" is another one of those seemingly minor lines that mysteriously embodies the themes of the whole movie.


Scott6373

  • Guest
Re: A different viewpoint
« Reply #35 on: April 05, 2007, 10:50:26 am »
I still can't shake the feeling that he kept the situation unchanged out of fear.  I know he loved Ennis, but he never really knew if Ennis loved him.  He could assume, and he probably did.  I don't think we can ever discount that there are always other chances for happiness out there for all of us...if we can overcome the fear of the unknown long enough to explore that world.

Offline HerrKaiser

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,708
Re: A different viewpoint
« Reply #36 on: April 05, 2007, 07:48:10 pm »


Let's face it...if Jack were smarter, he would have and should have left Ennis behind.  It's not testament to anything but fear that he stayed with Ennis...or wished to.  Fear of losing, of never finding, of not knowing.  There were moments of happiness, but a lifetime of hurt and anguish.  Even if Jack had gone on to leave Lureen and find another man, it would be better than what he ended up with.  But...hindsight is 20/20


Interesting, but I think the one thing you left out is love. Jack was no dummy, he was in love with Ennis, pure and simple; and Ennnis with him. My particular high opinions of Ennis aside, Jack imo had a life of hope, anticipation, and happiness with Ennis. Sure, it was not what jack felt he truly wanted, but if was not fear that kept Jack tied to Ennis for 20 years; it was love. And good love. Jack knew perfectly well how easy it was to find another bed and with that goes the chance for a relationship. I don't think he was afraid of that; in fact, I think he was rather bold and fearless. But, he set all that aside for Ennis. Ennis was his chosen man and I think he, in spite of deeply wishing he and Ennis "had more", would have never cut it off with Ennis if he had the chance to relive the 20 years.

Offline serious crayons

  • Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,756
Re: A different viewpoint
« Reply #37 on: April 06, 2007, 12:56:20 am »
Herr, I agree. Scott, I'm of the mind that Jack DID know Ennis loved him -- that wasn't the problem. He realized Ennis was paralyzed by his own fear. Does that mean Jack should have called it quits and looked around for a more flexible partner? Well, I'm not in that camp. Real love does count for a lot. Not everything, maybe, but a lot.



Offline Ellemeno

  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • ********
  • Posts: 15,367
Re: A different viewpoint
« Reply #38 on: April 06, 2007, 08:12:41 pm »
Let's face it...if Jack were smarter, he would have and should have left Ennis behind.  It's not testament to anything but fear that he stayed with Ennis...or wished to.  Fear of losing, of never finding, of not knowing. 

Wow, I don't see it this way at all.  What's smart got to do with it?  I don't think Jack operated out of fear much.  I think he operated out of hope.  Pretty different.