Jake In Drag??

[David In Indy]

What do you all think of Jake on SNL so far?   

I figured they would parody gay people tonight.

[Flashframe777]

Loved it!  I was just watching my "Dreamgirls" screener tonight, and I've had "And I Am Telling You I'm Not Going" redefined for me tonight by Jennifer Hudson and Jake Gyllenhaal!

[DeeDee]

OMG..that was a hoot.  Those 2 cowboys were a riot.

[David In Indy]

I'm recording this on DVD. Just as soon as it's over, I'll try to take some screen shots of Jake in drag and post them here.

[Flashframe777]

Those muscles bulging through that dress......whew!

Okay...don't like the chi chi stuff, but once I slow danced with a marine who was in partial  drag at a gay club whose sister was a lesbian who had been Miss America.  Thank God he was muscular, cute, and not wearing makeup.  I didn't understand his penchant for wearing a dress...but hey, whatever floats your boat!

[David In Indy]

Okay...don't like the chi chi stuff, but once I slow danced with a marine who was in partial  drag at a gay club whose sister was a lesbian who had been Miss America.  Thank God he was muscular, cute, and not wearing makeup.  I didn't understand his penchant for wearing a dress...but hey, whatever floats your boat!

Run that past me again. 

That's like one of those "She's my aunt's sister's cousin's ...."

haha. I know what you meant. 

[David In Indy]

The dancing meatballs are a bit weird though.

[Flashframe777]

It's all very true.  I have found that my life is stranger than fiction.  What's more, he didn't have a change of clothing, nor a ride home.  So my father, who picked me up later from the club, gave him a ride back  to the military base.  I have no idea how he pulled that one off.  But I do know at the time, all the military guys would comment to me that if I wanted a boyfriend, the best place for that would be the military.

***All of you know how much of a Heathen I am, but Jake is really winning me over tonight with SNL.

[acoustic man]

The dancing meatballs are a bit weird though.

I don't know the chicken Parmesan looked pretty good to me

[David In Indy]

I don't know the chicken Parmesan looked pretty good to me

Hey Tullio! What are you doing here? You're suppose to be performing at my club tonight! 

It's all very true.  I have found that my life is stranger than fiction.  What's more, he didn't have a change of clothing, nor a ride home.  So my father, who picked me up later from the club, gave him a ride back  to the military base.  I have no idea how he pulled that one off.  But I do know at the time, all the military guys would comment to me that if I wanted a boyfriend, the best place for that would be the military.

***All of you know how much of a Heathen I am, but Jake is really winning me over tonight with SNL.

I've heard this very same thing! Do you think it's really true? I was always tempted to go cruising at Fort Benjamin Harrison, but I never did. I was too chicken. lol

[Flashframe777]

I've heard this very same thing! Do you think it's really true? I was always tempted to go cruising at Fort Benjamin Harrison, but I never did. I was too chicken. lol

I think it is true.  He's not the only military guy to tell me that.  Once I dated this ex-military guy who said the same thing, but noted that military guys like to date military guys, and they frown upon to date outside the military.

Non-sequitur for the evening......Maya Rudolph is a hoot!!!   One of my favorite songs in the world is "Love And It's Glory" sung by her mother Minnie Riperton who wrote it about her.

[David In Indy]

Sorry about the quality! I did this in a hurry, and I didn't properly set the aperture, light meter, etc...   

Jake in drag on SNL....

[coffeecat33]

I loved him in drag! He did great - love the bulging deltoids with the sleeveless sequined dress. I probably would have thought the show was so-so if it were anyone else, but I really liked watching Jake. The singing couple wearing polar bear fur was funny, too.
cc33 / Leslie

[Lumière]

haha..

Ok..the show is not on here yet .. but thanks for the pix David! 
My expectations are pretty low, its SNL afterall  , but I'm hoping Jake will make up for it ..

[littleguitar]

I loved him in drag! He did great - love the bulging deltoids with the sleeveless sequined dress. I probably would have thought the show was so-so if it were anyone else, but I really liked watching Jake. The singing couple wearing polar bear fur was funny, too.
cc33 / Leslie

my thoughts exactly, on everything. I also enjoyed the bronx skit (Jake was adorable!)

His arms in that dress?? *thud* 

[coffeecat33]

come on in to the chat room !

[Lumière]

His arms in that dress?? *thud* 

Um, agreed! 

[dot-matrix]

It's a little after 1 here and SNL just went off and I had to log in before bed to post that we (Bob and me, Victoria and Nick) thought Jake was wonderful.  He was poised and charming and very funny right from the moment he took the stage.  He gets it.  SNL is satire and he picked up that ball and ran with it. He was clearly having a darn good time with it all.  It could have been really cringeworthy as SNL often is but it was a very pleasant surprise.

Loved him saying that he had always wanted to host SNL and wanted to jump at the chance but that he only agreed if there were NO brokeback jokes, then loved his interaction with those cute cowboys in the audience, acknowledgeing his new fan base, He was brillant as the Diva Dreamgirl in drag...boy is he looking hot these days must be all that working out and bicycling.  He was very cute in the Bronx interview and as the swedish rocker wearing "polar bear" and we all laughed through the Law and Order acting class...but my biggest chuckle of the evening came in the skit about fixing up the couple in the wheelchairs...everytime Jake delivered his exaggerated No I could not help but smile.   Even the meatball skit was OK.

Anyway we all really enjoyed it.   

[Lumière]

Everything Dottie said!

Really liked the Bronx Show skit - that was the funniest bit for me .. and the swedish rocker skit, the fixing a date skit and the acting class.
Not so cool skits - the "cool meatballs" ..lol.. and something about Laser cats ..

All in all .. Was a treat to watch Jake have a blast!!

And the arms in that slinky dress were .. 
Good stuff! 

[David]

I havenn't watch the whole thing yet,  but Jake in drag?     Dam his arms in that dress!   To quote a well used statement....   "Thud!"     

[Ellemeno]

I loved him in drag! He did great - love the bulging deltoids with the sleeveless sequined dress.

Yeah, looks like HE pledged Tri-Delt!

[Kelda]

Aaargh. I'm trying to find somewhere to watch the skits, but no luck so far. YouTube doesn't have them, IheartJake has links that are "corrupted" and won't work, and I don't know where else they might be. Annoying. I'd have loved to cosy up with funny Jake for my late morning cup of coffee.

Yep - nothing on you tube as yet other than the promo - somen who loves jake must have technical skills!

But I dooo love the screencaps - thanks David and yes indeedee *Thud* - loving the arms!!!

[Kelda]

OH Oh OH!!!!! Mikela!!!!

I've found some on youtube.. currently waiting for them to load...

somneone who posted the promo has posted the SNL skits - but under JG rather than fullname hence why we can't find when we search...


http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=veeajera

[MaineWriter]

***All of you know how much of a Heathen I am, but Jake is really winning me over tonight with SNL.

Hm, really? I taped it to watch this afternoon. Another Heathen converted? We'll see.

L

[ednbarby]

I liked that Bronx Chat (or whatever it was called) one, too.  Amy and Maya were a scream.  I swear, I work with both of those women.  South Florida is really just New York South.  I loved that whole Native American thing - "Are you Cherokee?  Chipawa?  Sioux?  Is there Sioux in you?"

I liked the techno-polar-bear-suit-wearing bit best of all, I think.  I love it when he does accents.  I was howling!  That whole bit was pretty good - Maya cracked me up when she got up and ran out when they asked her about her new CD.  I didn't know her mother was Minnie Riperton.  That explains why she can really sing.

Jake must be exhausted today.  Hopefully he's one of those who can sleep on an airplane.

[Kelda]

OOOOh!!! Kelda - Thank you! Just watched that intro and I so totally know why the biggest fansite is called IheartJake. That was so..... oh, great! BBM hilarity that for once wasn't at all cringeworthy. And the stuff he said..... Eeep. And what others have said about his looks....... uhm. I'd better go away and collect my wits before I start posting again. Otherwise you'd think I was a totally brainless teen.  :blush:

For some reason thats's the only one I can't watch (the monolgue one) - with Jake in Drag...  and it looks the best!

There seems to be no sound

so if somone can source another upload of this that would be great

The lawyer one went over my head (and the bronx one slightly - although I get the jist!) but the others were funny - I particularly liked the polar bear, law and order and laser cats ones!

[David]

Jake looked good as a blonde in the Polar bear fur jacket!   

[mvansand76]

Jake looked good as a blonde in the Polar bear fur jacket!   

And I loved the accent.... LOL   

[ednbarby]

Jake looked good as a blonde in the Polar bear fur jacket!   

I agree.   

I think he was doing an Ahhnuld impression, too.  Funny as hell!

[ednbarby]

Kelda, does this one work better for you (or is it just the same one)?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8o6ylKmx7rc

The link was posted at JW.

    

(I got my wish, by the way.  I think it was here where I said "I'd give anything to hear him sing.")

[Penthesilea]

OH Oh OH!!!!! Mikela!!!!

I've found some on youtube.. currently waiting for them to load...

somneone who posted the promo has posted the SNL skits - but under JG rather than fullname hence why we can't find when we search...


http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=veeajera

Kelda, my heart, my darling 
I haven't seen a bit yet (waitung to load), haven't read the rest of this thread yet - but just jumped in to say

Thank you!

Also I'm not *that* crazy about Jake as some of you are, I can't wait to see it.

[coffeecat33]

Yeah, looks like HE pledged Tri-Delt!

ROFLMAO 

[mvansand76]

Am I right and are these the lyrics to the song?

And I am telling you
I'm not going.
You're the best man I'll ever know.
There's no way I can ever go.
No, no, no, no way,
No, no, no, no way I'm living without you.
I'm not living without you.
I don't want to be free.
I'm staying, I'm staying,
And you, and you, you're gonna love me.
Ooh, you're gonna love me.

And I am telling you
I'm not going,
Even though the rough times are showing.
There's just no way, there's no way!
We're part of the same place,
We're part of the same time.
We both share the same blood.
We both have the same mind.

And time and time we have so much to share.
No! No, no, no, no, no!
I'm not waking up tomorrow morning
And finding that there's nobody there.
Darling, there's no way,
No, no, no, no way I'm living without you.
I'm not living without you.
You see, there's just no way,
There's no way!

Tear down the mountains,
Yell, scream and shout.
You can say what you want,
I'm not walking out.
Stop all the rivers,
Push, strike and kill.
I'm not gonna leave you,
There's no way I will!

And I am telling you
I'm not going.
You're the best man I'll ever know.
There's no way I can ever, ever go.
No, no, no, no way,
No, no, no, no way I'm living without you.
I'm not living without you,
I'm not living without you.
I don't want to be free.
I'm staying, I'm staying,
And you, and you, and you, you're gonna love me.
Ooh, you're gonna love me.
You're gonna love me!

Aaawwww that's so beautiful...

[injest]

ok just not trying to start a fight

but

I am not a big fan of last night. If anything BBM tore DOWN the stereotypes that all gay men just want to put on a sparkly dress and dance all night....that there is more to being gay than that..and that there are a lot of gay men out there that are living horrible lives because they don't and CAN'T identify with that stereotype...

to me Jake putting on that dress and dancing around is a slap in the face to Jack and Ennis...

and I think a lot less of him.

(and before you start firing...I don't mind gay men doing drag...I object to straight men; or gay men that are not out, dressing up in drag to mock gay people)

[injest]

he had a specatcular chance to MOCK THE STEREOTYPES...

how much better could it have been if he had??

was he playing to the Sean Hayes of the world that conspired to rob them of their SAGs and Oscars??

[David In Indy]

Am I right and are these the lyrics to the song?

Yes Melissa, those are the lyrics. Back in the early 1980's, this song was frequently performed in drag shows. I have the original soundtrack to Dreamgirls on LP.

Hopefully the screen version of Dreamgirls will renew interest of some of these great songs.

NOTE TO JESS: At first, I felt the same way you do Jess. I felt Jake was poking fun at the gay community and I felt a little hurt. But, after I thought about it I realized that SNL is parody and this is to be expected. Besides, Jake looked great in drag!

We have to laugh at ourselves sometimes. It was just a bunch of innocent fun. 

[injest]

just as black face and toe tapping minstrals were...

now we see that damage that 'innocent fun' caused to the self esteem of African Americans...

when are we gonna see that rationalizing and forgiving 'innocent fun' is damaging OUR young Jacks and Ennis's??

if they wanted to parody something...why not the people at the Oscars?? or Rev Phelps??

[injest]

but I am aware that I am in the minority...won't say anything else...

back to the lovefest...

[David In Indy]

but I am aware that I am in the minority...won't say anything else...

back to the lovefest...

well Jess, I'm Native American. They made fun of Native Americans last night and I wasn't offended.

I doubt many gay people were offended by last night's show. I clearly understand what you mean Jess. But IT WAS funny!

[Garry_LH]

I haven't seen it yet. Can I be pre-offended?

The thing is from an interview I read, for Jake to aparently wrap his mind around the role of Jack Twist, he thought of them as two straight men that fell in love. Huhhhh? The gay fashion, speech, and action mafia really does exist?

Then, I'm one that thinks this soceity is way to hung up on lables and what those lables Have to mean.

[Flashframe777]

I'm black and gay and 1/4 Pawnee Indian.  So I could be offended that Jake put on a dress and played a black woman.

But I'm not.  I thought it doubly funny.  Being a double minority, offensive behavior and commentary assail my consciouness every minute of the day (especially since conservatives have been running the show for the past 6 years).  I have to pick and choose what I let affect me sparingly or else I'd have no time to enjoy myself.

I am in no way saying that you don't have the right to be offended however.

[dot-matrix]

For those of you who did not like it or were offended let me offer a few thoughts that may help you get past that sense of offense.  SNL is about satire not political correctness. Otherwise President Bush should be having a major hissy fit this morning. Perhaps some of his supporters are, perhaps he is but the point is this anyone who watches SNL should be prepared and willing to have fun poked at their expense.

We forget that these 2 fine actors are not obsessed with this film, we are.    Neither Jake nor Heath signed up to be the poster boys for Gay Rights when they agreed to play these roles.  We all need to lighten up a bit.  I really can't blame Jake and Health for wanting to put the film behind them and move on with their careers. So I feel Jake was being a good sport. I remember reading an acceptance speech made recently by Heath in his native Australia for still yet another BBM recognition award. He stated "this film doesn't want to go away" and in essence, told the audience the best thing to come out of this film is his family.

If I were to have a chance meeting with either two I don't believe I would bring up the subject of BBM. I imagine they are plumb well full of hearing about it.  In a couple of years Heath will be rolling his eyeballs over everyone doing Joker imitations... this too shall pass.


as Clarissa shared from her meeting with Lynne and Truman, Lynne's very wise observation: " We do alot better if we remember that Heath and Jake are NOT Ennis and Jack" (apologies to Lynne if the wording is off)

[injest]

For those of you who did not like it or were offended let me offer a few thoughts that may help you get past that sense of offense.  SNL is about satire not political correctness. Otherwise President Bush should be having a major hissy fit this morning. Perhaps some of his supporters are, perhaps he is but the point is this anyone who watches SNL should be prepared and willing to have fun poked at their expense.

We forget that these 2 fine actors are not obsessed with this film, we are.    Neither Jake nor Heath signed up to be the poster boys for Gay Rights when they agreed to play these roles.  We all need to lighten up a bit.  I really can't blame Jake and Health for wanting to put the film behind them and move on with their careers. So I feel Jake was being a good sport. I remember reading an acceptance speech made recently by Heath in his native Australia for still yet another BBM recognition award. He stated "this film doesn't want to go away" and in essence, told the audience the best thing to come out of this film is his family.

If I were to have a chance meeting with either two I don't believe I would bring up the subject of BBM. I imagine they are plumb well full of hearing about it.  In a couple of years Heath will be rolling his eyeballs over everyone doing Joker imitations... this too shall pass.

you are right...

of course...I doubt Bush lives in fear that he will encounter a tire iron if he goes to the wrong area of town...

belittleing and stereotyping leads people to believe it is ok to treat minorities in different ways...I am 1/4 Coushatta...but see the difference there is no one is gonna TIRE IRON me for that...

lighten up??

no I won't laugh and mock a minority...it is not funny...

not when the minority you are mocking is in such a vulnerable position. We are living in a time when there is a concerted effort to destroy the civil rights of gay people. Gay youths are at a much higher risk for suicide. It is time to stop laughing at jokes that are not funny!

note please that the Civil Rights movement (which was at least successful in the courts) DEMANDED that the parodies and satires be stopped as a STEP to getting a bit of respect and consideration??

[acoustic man]

Dot-Matrix very well put. As a straight fan of BBM I was concerned that SNL would flambaste BBM knowing how SNL can be. I really respect Jake for taking the high road and refusing to do skits pertaining to BBM. Look at the Donald and Rosie skit they did! I agree that we all should be able to live in a world as equals and we all must be able to live our lives and laugh at ourselves once and awhile without the fear of being ridiculed. These are just actors and BBM was a movie, it is the story we all love so much and if BBM raised awareness of the many problems facing gays then we should focus on how to continue this awareness so that we can all learn how to live our lives , laugh at our short comings and be accepting of each other gay or straight.

[newyearsday]

Howdy Tremblayans,

I've been thinking about this today and last night, and I feel a little something of what each of the various camps have said, so I have some mixed feelings about the drag sketch. In watching it twice now I have both times felt this interesting double message or contradiction happen as Jake begins to introduce the number.

First he says flat out he won't do any Brokeback jokes. Good. Then he says, also very sincerely, that doing that movie really meant a lot to him and opened him up...then there is a little pause and he looks down or to the side a little, and right there is where the contradiction or double message starts to happen, as he looks up and finishes saying that the movie opened him up "to a whole new fan base" (i.e. gay men) and that he really got a lot of support from them. Now I know Jake is an actor, and so who really knows if his actual personal sentiments are in this monologue. But I felt he switched subtly from a sincere to a slightly tongue-in-cheek way of talking about his gratefulness for the gay fan-base right at that point. I think that if he had played it fully sincere the whole time I would have enjoyed it more. But in that change of delivery I felt a little let down, a little unsure of what his intent was as a comedian and as a person.

The drag doesn't bother me--I mean it's conceivable that Jake really did want to show some sollidarity with the gay community or blur sterotypes by just showing how a (probably) straight man can put on a dress and sing the crap out of a really demanding number. From watching his acceptance speech for the Human Rights Campaign Equality Award last year, I have this belief that Jake is truly a supporter of the gay community, and I even think it's possible that he chose that song because of the message of loyalty it contains. See this verse that occurs late in the song but that Jake actually sang as the first non-chorus verse (note the first line as a nod to people who might want to tear down BBM):

Tear down the mountains,
Yell, scream and shout.
You can say what you want,
I'm not walking out.
Stop all the rivers,
Push, strike and kill.
I'm not gonna leave you,
There's no way I will!

Many could say I'm stretching it to say that. Maybe I am, but wherever his choice came from, Jake put his body, heart, and soul into that number, and to me it's just possible that in some ways he's saying that message of determined steadfastness to the gay community in his own performer's way.

So, yes to raising the questions, and yes to having a sense of humor and letting go. I was above all, blown away by his talent and total commitment to the song. I love that kind of fearlessness! And I thought Jake did a great job and seemed totally to enjoy himself the whole time otherwise. He's got such a bright soul. I'm happy for him today and I think he should feel proud of himself -- having a great SNL show is not such an easy thing to pull off these days.

Last but not least, loved the RAMONA shirt and the way he would look into the camera with this awesome, warm look each time he introduced the band before walking off-camera. YUM.

Jenny

[Arad-3]

I agree with Jenny. I think Jake sincerely put his heart and soul into that song last night. And I do believe he was sending out a message to his gay fan base. That was the best part of the show. The hour and half that followed was very painful to watch.

I have always been a big fan of SNL. But have not watched it in a couple of years mosly because I was D-jing most Saturday nights and missed it. I was free last night and decided that I wasn't going to miss this one. I was shocked at the crap that they were willing to throw at their audience. I think sixth graders could of come up with better skits and pulled them off better than this new cast of players and writers did. I think its an insult to anybody watching with an ounce of intellegence.

I don't blame Jake for this cause he really has to go along with the writers. I think when he just played himself like the beginning and introducing the band he shined through. But the written skits they put him through were painful to watch. I imagine they were painful for him to do . But then again he is young and maybe he was having a great time with the cast. I myself know that I will never sit home again on a Saturday night to watch SNL. Even if my favorite star is on because I wouldn't want to watch them go through that again. Except for Jake, I give the whole show two thumbs down!

[Kelda]

Kelda, my heart, my darling 
I haven't seen a bit yet (waitung to load), haven't read the rest of this thread yet - but just jumped in to say

Thank you!

Also I'm not *that* crazy about Jake as some of you are, I can't wait to see it.

No problem!!

Kelda, does this one work better for you (or is it just the same one)?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8o6ylKmx7rc

The link was posted at JW.

    

(I got my wish, by the way.  I think it was here where I said "I'd give anything to hear him sing.")

Thanks Barb - that worked - i htink it may have been the same one though - perhaps it was becasue it was the last of all the clips I downloaded my PC was just playing up).

Last but not least, loved the RAMONA shirt and the way he would look into the camera with this awesome, warm look each time he introduced the band before walking off-camera. YUM.

Jenny

Romana shirt - I musyt have missed that - when was that?

I have to say - I agree with Dottie & Jenny - he was making a statement in his own way on SNL about being a supporter of gay rights and we all know he is a very outspoken supporter of gay rights.  But at the end of the day - BBM - was just part of his career and he has a right o play the fool sometimes.

I enjoyed it. 

[serious crayons]

I dunno, I didn't think the monologue stuff was horrific -- the humor wasn't mean-spirited -- but part of me agrees with Jess. Besides, if you're going to make jokes involving gay people or any minority group, it's not just more PC, but also funnier, fresher and more original to make ones that challenge or upend stereotypes rather than reinforce them.

For example, I liked Jon Stewart's Oscar night joke about how the film Capote was made "to show that not all gay men are virile cowboys." Does that challenge stereotype or reinforce it? I suppose you could see one that either way, but at the very least it seemed fresher than what SNL did.

But let's face it, SNL just isn't very well written. Which always baffles me, because The Daily Show and The Colbert Report manage to be consistently funny four nights a week, and SNL is only on once a week, but rarely is outright funny. Yet you'd think SNL would attract better writers; it's higher profile, and NBC probably pays better than Comedy Central.

 

[Meryl]

I've really enjoyed reading all the reactions to the drag bit that Jake did last night, and I can see that it was funny, and I laughed heartily at it (his performance was spot on), but when all is said and done, I come squarely down on Jess's side of the fence on this.

I look forward to the day when the likes of SNL and Jay Leno and David Letterman and all the mainstream media take a hard look at what their comedy is really saying and perpetuating and decide it's time for a change.  There is comedy that pokes affectionate fun, and there is comedy that belittles, and making the point yet again that being a gay man also means that you are a silly, fan-girly twit who gets all worked up over campy divas is just another example of the latter.

Some have said that they were relieved that Jake didn't do a BBM-related skit, but IMO he most emphatically did.  I actually would have preferred to see him in cowboy attire responding intelligently to some homophobe than catering to that silly stereotype.

[ednbarby]

Totally agree, Meryl.  I enjoyed his performance very much, but I wish it could have been done sans the overly-exuberant, "obviously" gay men in the audience.  I happened to have lunch with several gay men today at a party for a mutual friend, and several of them saw it and felt the same way.  They all enjoyed what he did, but most could have done without the rest of it.  I realize that was the point of the bit, but that's what makes it so disappointing.  One man there put it very succinctly:  "Well, consider the source (i.e., SNL/NBC).  What else can you expect?"

I did appreciate that at least that was the extent of it.  My expectations for them were extremely low going into it (I hoped for the best but I feared the worst), so the fact that they made me cringe only once was pretty good, considering.

And I agree - Jake put everything into belting out that song - just put it all out there - and LIVE.  I love the fearlessness in him, too.  He is a true performer, is he not?  We're lucky to have him out there to enjoy.

[David In Indy]

I dunno, I didn't think the monologue stuff was horrific -- the humor wasn't mean-spirited -- but part of me agrees with Jess. Besides, if you're going to make jokes involving gay people or any minority group, it's not just more PC, but also funnier, fresher and more original to make ones that challenge or upend stereotypes rather than reinforce them.

For example, I liked Jon Stewart's Oscar night joke about how the film Capote was made "to show that not all gay men are virile cowboys." Does that challenge stereotype or reinforce it? I suppose you could see one that either way, but at the very least it seemed fresher than what SNL did.

But let's face it, SNL just isn't very well written. Which always baffles me, because The Daily Show and The Colbert Report manage to be consistently funny four nights a week, and SNL is only on once a week, but rarely is outright funny. Yet you'd think SNL would attract better writers; it's higher profile, and NBC probably pays better than Comedy Central.

 

But then, where was all the outrage with "Will & Grace"? That show regurgitated decades old gay stereotypes every single week. Will and Jack? Give me a break. Jack the flaming queen and Will the preppy compulsive "neat freak". I guarantee you Will & Grace was a show that offended many gay Americans; myself included.

What about "Queer Eye for the Straight Guy"? Another offensive show to many gay people. Carson Kressley? That man flames like a welding torch. He IS the typical gay stereotype.  Where's the anger?

These kinds of shows do far more harm to the gay community than a "Jake in drag" skit on SNL could ever do.

Jake in drag was funny. I talked with a few of my gay friends about the show. Nobody felt offended. They loved it. Go watch a drag show sometime. I have seen drag shows that make Jake's Jennifer Hudson impersonation look conservative and tame.

I'm not mad or angry at all, and I hope this post doesn't give someone the impression I am. I'm just trying to make a point. And I agree with Geri. SNL sucks. I watched it all the time in the 1970's and 80's. It's just not funny anymore. But I thought Jake did a good job last night. Let's just have a good laugh over this and move on!  

[nakymaton]

I finally got the file downloaded and had time to watch it. And... well, I've got two responses. One... holy &*(% Jake has gorgeous arms and shoulders. *cough* But the guys in the audience did grate on me, and I'm not sure if it's because the fanboys in cowboy hats were insulting, or because they were so painfully over-acted cariacatures. I mean, I laughed at the New Yorker cartoon with the guy saying "what if I don't want to be Jack or Ennis?" So I don't know if I'm offended by the stereotype put-downs, or if I'm offended by bad comedy and blank faces. BBM has made it damn hard to watch anything that lacks subtlety, you know?

So. Jake in drag? Um, he looked really good in that dress. SNL? It makes me glad I don't have television.

[Ellemeno]

Nothing wrong with drag or minstrel shows theoretically, but:

What Jess said about the effects of homophobia being no laughing matter, and its effect on the gay teen suicide rate.

What Katherine said about upending the stereotype being much funnier.  I am a consistent Colbert-watcher, and he frequently makes jokes that are gay-related, and those jokes are never mean-spirited or minimizing of gay rights - they support gay rights.

Also what Meryl said about comedians (and that includes many of us) really needing to see what our humor is perpetuating - and Meryl, that means a lot coming from the campiest diva I know!   Not to put you in the hot seat, but you are able to mock so much in your High Priestess persona without ever being mean-spirited.  

David, your post came in as I was typing.  I haven't watched "Queer Eye," but I've seen a tiny bit of that Carson Kressley fella and he seems pretty unappealing to me.  The few times I have watched "Will and Grace," the Jack character seems to be repeatedly kissing with the Megan Mullaly character, which always confused me.  I bet a lot of people here agree with your assessment of those shows.

I'm glad we are having these conversations.  I applaud our ability to discourse without getting mean.  And as I said in my post in the "Gayest Food Ever" thread, I really do think it helps to be able to kind of practice speaking up here about what we feel is wrong, so that we can do it more confidently in less friendly situations.

Oop, now Mel's post just came in.  The thing that was funny about that New Yorker cartoon was that it turned the stereotype over too - even among gay cowboys, or gay cowboy wannabes or gay cowboy wannabe's pardners, there are those who want another choice besides Jack OR Ennis.

[Lumière]

But then, where was all the outrage with "Will & Grace"? That show regurgitated decades old gay stereotypes every single week. Will and Jack? Give me a break. Jack the flaming queen and Will the preppy compulsive "neat freak". I guarantee you Will & Grace was a show that offended many gay Americans; myself included.

What about "Queer Eye for the Straight Guy"? Another offensive show to many gay people. Carson Kressley? That man flames like a welding torch. He IS the typical gay stereotype.  Where's the anger?

These kinds of shows do far more harm to the gay community than a "Jake in drag" skit on SNL could ever do.

David  - you said everything I had in mind on this, and so well too.  Thank you mate! 

[ednbarby]

Thank you from me, too, David.  I *loathe* "Will & Grace" - always have - primarily because the biggest homophobes I know think it is "a real hoot."  Don't much like "Queer Eye for the Straight Guy" either for the same reason.  I find the former in particular outrageous.  And I agree that it's much more damaging than that bit on SNL, which is, after all, all about parodies.  It's much easier to take SNL's perpetuating of the stereotype in a one-shot thing than W&G's regular habit of it.

Overall, I like that SNL did one Brokeback bit (and as Meryl said, make no mistake - that's what it was) right at the get-go, got it out of the way, and *moved on.*  Beats the hell out of what Leno and Letterman et. al have been able to do, and they didn't have one of the stars on most of the times they kept beating that dead (or never-was-alive-in-the-first-place) horse.  And as I said, it's more than I expected of them.

[Arad-3]

I agree with this !  I just hate Will and Grace!  If there is any show out there that actually makes fun of gays or encourages audience to stereotype gays, that would be it.  Their portrayals of the the gay mans lifestyles should send gay men through the roof!

It's like when Ellen first came out on her show. I was happy for her.  thought she was courageous to do that, but then caved in to the producers for the laughs and ratings and did more harm than good back then! The show had worst actors and actresses playing the goofiest gay people you could imagine.  Ruined it for me. (the show I mean) Not Ellens fault! . I cringed at what she had to endure to keep her show going!   It might of took a few years but Ellen came back with flying colors!  Thank the Lord! She is my favorite.

Just my opinion. Like A**h***s ... everyone has one!

[coffeecat33]

I listened to Jennifer Holliday's "You're Going to Love Me" today. She has an incredible voice and Jake did an incredible parody of that song. I hope someday he makes a movie with him singing. 

[David In Indy]

I listened to Jennifer Holliday's "You're Going to Love Me" today. She has an incredible voice and Jake did an incredible parody of that song. I hope someday he makes a movie with him singing. 

Can you believe I STILL have my original Dreamgirls LP I bought in 1981? (I think it was 1981). Jennifer Holliday is awesome in it! She will always be the original (and best) for that song.

But Jennifer Hudson does a really good job too. Both of them are hot! And yeah, Jake did a really good job last night. I loved it! 

[Andrew]

(quote from David)
But then, where was all the outrage with "Will & Grace"? That show regurgitated decades old gay stereotypes every single week. Will and Jack? Give me a break. Jack the flaming queen and Will the preppy compulsive "neat freak". I guarantee you Will & Grace was a show that offended many gay Americans; myself included.

What about "Queer Eye for the Straight Guy"? Another offensive show to many gay people. Carson Kressley? That man flames like a welding torch. He IS the typical gay stereotype.  Where's the anger?

Ever since I was little, I have always sat in the chair nearest the door whenever I watched television.

When I was five, it was the scary parts - my family could say whatever they liked about all pretend, it was too too real for me.  I had to know I could escape if I had to.  And now it's the cringe-inducing parts.  I watch very little television.  And the less you watch television, the less acclimatised to all that tripe you are, so you are even more sensitive to the things that cause cringing.  There are a lot of programs I have been curious about but have only been able to take random samples of.  Whenever I could stomach wandering back into the room.  And I judged these programs harshly on deliberately spotty evidence.

Far too much humor on TV is written by people who make us think they have a boring nine-to-five job writing humor.
And a lot of people turn on certain shows and laugh on cue because they just planned to have that release at that set time and damn it, insipid writing isn't going to spoil their plans.

The very best humor is a sudden totally fresh flash revelation of what it is to be a person in the world.  There is definitely a certain social convention involved, a mental setup for being amused because you expect that of a certain show or author or funny friend.  But you are not disappointed if they are good, they come through with something you would never have anticipated.  The customary support of the normal beliefs you normally sit on is knocked away and you are there shaking helplessly on the floor instead. (And I do literally slip off the couch or bed sometimes and do that).

I agree with others that small-scale unoriginal unfunny humor making fun of groups of people does huge harm in the world.  That was a memorable phrase Hannah Arendt came up with, the 'banality of evil.'  

Sometimes I deliberately expose myself to a show I know is supposed to be perpetuating stereotypes, just to see if I have been stereotyping it!  I watched Queer Eye once, early on in the first season.  Although Carson Kressley was trying hard to succeed and be accepted by being stereotypical, the others were just rather intent on their tasks, to set up a special evening in which their subject, John, would propose to his girlfriend.  John was a handsome goodnatured young man who responded rather gracefully when Kressley made a stupid, totally fake pass at him.  As the culmination, a elaborate pavillion for two lavishly strewn with rose petals was raised in the courtyard.  And then the last thing I expected happened.  In spite of all the distractions and frivolities of the filming, this was clearly a very important day to John.  And when he was suddenly allowed to see the magical pavillion, he suddenly got a catch in his voice.  The hokeyness and commercialism of the show suddenly disappeared for a few seconds and you felt his intense gratitude for these five generous strangers who were doing their utmost to make his marriage proposal memorable for himself and his future wife, these men who expressed with their extravagant designs the hugeness of what he felt for her but could not have found a symbol for by himself.



 

[delalluvia]

I remember reading an acceptance speech made recently by Heath in his native Australia for still yet another BBM recognition award. He stated "this film doesn't want to go away" and in essence, told the audience the best thing to come out of this film is his family.

If I were to have a chance meeting with either two I don't believe I would bring up the subject of BBM. I imagine they are plumb well full of hearing about it.  In a couple of years Heath will be rolling his eyeballs over everyone doing Joker imitations... this too shall pass.

as Clarissa shared from her meeting with Lynne and Truman, Lynne's very wise observation: " We do alot better if we remember that Heath and Jake are NOT Ennis and Jack" (apologies to Lynne if the wording is off)

I'm going to agree with this POV.  When it comes right down to it, BBM was a job for Heath and Jake.  No more, no less. 

They learned a great deal from doing it and I'm glad for them.

But they are actors, not activists and they are moving on with their careers and personal lives and perhaps it's we fans who don't want to let them, holding them to our own standards and not their own.

I would like to let them and not make them a William Shatner and eventually make them regret taking the roles in the first place.

[serious crayons]

In spite of all the distractions and frivolities of the filming, this was clearly a very important day to John.  And when he was suddenly allowed to see the magical pavillion, he suddenly got a catch in his voice.  The hokeyness and commercialism of the show suddenly disappeared for a few seconds and you felt his intense gratitude for these five generous strangers who were doing their utmost to make his marriage proposal memorable for himself and his future wife, these men who expressed with their extravagant designs the hugeness of what he felt for her but could not have found a symbol for by himself.

You know, Andrew, I only saw QEFTSG once or twice, but I think I saw this one. (Wasn't there something involving wooing the girlfriend with some really deluxe chocolate?) Anyway, if it's the one I'm thinking of, you're right, it was genuinely touching!

I didn't need to watch the show any more than that because I figured, you've seen one, you've seen a season's worth. But I left the show with fairly positive feelings because of that particular episode.

[serious crayons]

I would like to let them and not make them a William Shatner and eventually make them regret taking the roles in the first place.

The name William Shatner would mean nothing to anyone today if it weren't for Star Trek. Regret? He has played that role for all he can, and it has taken him farther than he probably ever had a right to expect. That said, I like William Shatner a lot; he funny and seems to take himself very unseriously.

But, much as I love BBM, it would be depressing to see Jake or Heath host SNL 10 years from now -- let alone the 40 it's been since Star Trek! -- and still be doing BBM jokes. Depressing for them, depressing for BBM, depressing for the world.

As for Jay Leno and his homophobic ilk: they are shameless. Like Meryl said, do they never stop to think about what it is they're saying? Along with the members of the AMPA, I will never respect those people again.

[Shakesthecoffecan]

Hi Folks,

Greetins from Wild wonderful west virginia. i,Wayne, Lynne, Wulf and RouxB and My partner are in a little cabin, drink wine, and we have a 56k dial up connection. We want to know what size dress you think he is wearing. We watched SNL on Broadcast TV, and the stock footage awards was innerupted by local coverage of an apartment fire. We think 12-14, but maybe up to 20.

Peace Out,

stg

[David In Indy]

Sometimes I deliberately expose myself to a show I know is supposed to be perpetuating stereotypes, just to see if I have been stereotyping it!  I watched Queer Eye once, early on in the first season.  Although Carson Kressley was trying hard to succeed and be accepted by being stereotypical, the others were just rather intent on their tasks, to set up a special evening in which their subject, John, would propose to his girlfriend.  John was a handsome goodnatured young man who responded rather gracefully when Kressley made a stupid, totally fake pass at him.  As the culmination, a elaborate pavillion for two lavishly strewn with rose petals was raised in the courtyard.  And then the last thing I expected happened.  In spite of all the distractions and frivolities of the filming, this was clearly a very important day to John.  And when he was suddenly allowed to see the magical pavillion, he suddenly got a catch in his voice.  The hokeyness and commercialism of the show suddenly disappeared for a few seconds and you felt his intense gratitude for these five generous strangers who were doing their utmost to make his marriage proposal memorable for himself and his future wife, these men who expressed with their extravagant designs the hugeness of what he felt for her but could not have found a symbol for by himself.

 

I didn't say "Queer Eye" doesn't have a good side. I've watched a few episodes that left a lump in my throat too.

But one must admit the show does perpetuate some ugly gay stereotypes; Carson zipping up the straight guy's pants as he stares at the poor man's nether region, or holding the straight guy's hand as they skip down the streets of New York (I have seen several of the guys do this).  Why not have a show featuring 5 gay men doing the same job WITHOUT all the flamboyancy?

Maybe the network is afraid people wouldn't watch the show without all these stereotypes constantly being thrown in everyone's face? If the answer is "yes" (and I believe it is) WHY do people want to see the stereotypes? So they can laugh at us? Maybe. Who knows?

Yes Andrew, the show does have it's sweet moments. I have only watched the show about 3 times, and that was enough for me. Maybe I should watch it again. Maybe I didn't give the show enough of a chance. But even with the sweet endings, somehow the negative stereotypes far outweigh any warm and fuzzy feeling the program might give me.

I respect your comment Andrew, just as I very much respect you. But I think I will respectfully disagree with you on this one.  

[David In Indy]

Hi Folks,

Greetins from Wild wonderful west virginia. i,Wayne, Lynne, Wulf and RouxB and My partner are in a little cabin, drink wine, and we have a 56k dial up connection. We want to know what size dress you think he is wearing. We watched SNL on Broadcast TV, and the stock footage awards was innerupted by local coverage of an apartment fire. We think 12-14, but maybe up to 20.

Peace Out,

stg

Oh! I am SOOOO jealous! I wish I could have gone on that trip! I hope you all are having a great time! Jake's dress size? He's got to be an 18 if he's an ounce!

 

That didn't make much sense, did it? He's gotta be an 18! Just look at those abs. 

[delalluvia]

The name William Shatner would mean nothing to anyone today if it weren't for Star Trek. Regret? He has played that role for all he can, and it has taken him farther than he probably ever had a right to expect. That said, I like William Shatner a lot; he funny and seems to take himself very unseriously.

But, much as I love BBM, it would be depressing to see Jake or Heath host SNL 10 years from now -- let alone the 40 it's been since Star Trek! -- and still be doing BBM jokes. Depressing for them, depressing for BBM, depressing for the world.

As for Jay Leno and his homophobic ilk: they are shameless. Like Meryl said, do they never stop to think about what it is they're saying? Along with the members of the AMPA, I will never respect those people again.

William Shatner's regret was that his name might have meant something more than Capt. Kirk had he not been so identified with the character that he could never get any other meaningful work.  He was T.J. Hooker, but critics called him 'Captn Kirk with a badge.'  He's been milking it in recent years to be sure, a classic example of 'If you can't beat them, join them.'

Oh, I agree with Jess.  It's one of those - we can make stereotypical jokes about ourselves, but no other people can do it - things.

As for Jay Leno and ilk, other than he and his wife's charitable work, I never thought much about them period, much less develop or not develop respect for them.

[BBM-Cat]

But they are actors, not activists and they are moving on with their careers and personal lives and perhaps it's we fans who don't want to let them, holding them to our own standards and not their own.

I would like to let them and not make them a William Shatner and eventually make them regret taking the roles in the first place.

So very well said - both Jake and Heath are moving on with their careers. Just think - they had more than a year before BBM came out in theaters to process what they went through, and now it has been over two years for the actors - moving on and continuing to grow in other roles just makes sense. It is difficult for some to accept - some of us are viewing BBM only for the first time since it came out. I'm not sure what I'm trying to say but there will always be those who are new to BBM and who rediscover it.

[Flashframe777]

All this "Queer Eye" talk has got me SNL wardrobe curious...what do you call two men who share each other's clothing?  There's got to be some clever term for it- Closet Cousins?  Prada Partners?  Puma Buddies? Toothy Tile Sportswear Lovers?

...from another, er, I plead the 5th  , site.......

[David In Indy]

All this "Queer Eye" talk has got me SNL wardrobe curious...what do you call two men who share each other's clothing?  There's got to be some clever term for it- Closet Cousins?  Prada Partners?  Puma Buddies?

...from another, er, I plead the 5th  , site.......

Ummmm.......Hmmmmmm........

I'm gonna think about that and get back with ya. You're right though, there's got to be a clever name for it... or them....

 

I'll think about it! 

[welliwont]

Hi Folks,

Greetins from Wild wonderful west virginia. i,Wayne, Lynne, Wulf and RouxB and My partner are in a little cabin, drink wine, and we have a 56k dial up connection. We want to know what size dress you think he is wearing. We watched SNL on Broadcast TV, and the stock footage awards was innerupted by local coverage of an apartment fire. We think 12-14, but maybe up to 20.

Peace Out,

stg

Hey you guys, here's another answer for you:  my guess is 18 too.  maybe 20....

 

[SFEnnisSF]

Here's a good version of the performance just posted to Youtube:

[Ellemeno]

what do you call two men who share each other's clothing?  There's got to be some clever term for it- Closet Cousins?  Prada Partners?  Puma Buddies? Toothy Tile Sportswear Lovers?

...from another, er, I plead the 5th  , site.......

Flash, how in the world was someone observant enough to connect those two pictures?  Who is that fella with Jake?  And what were they grocery shopping for?

Dress size - custom made.

And William Shatner - that's a sobering comparison.

[welliwont]

All this "Queer Eye" talk has got me SNL wardrobe curious...what do you call two men who share each other's clothing?  There's got to be some clever term for it- Closet Cousins?  Prada Partners?  Puma Buddies? Toothy Tile Sportswear Lovers?

...from another, er, I plead the 5th  , site.......

I just found a link at Jake Watch, apparently that jacket is some kind of Lance Armstrong Livestrong jacket, so I would suspect that they each have their own jackets....

http://www.nike.com/index.jhtml#l=nikestore,grid,_pdp,cid-1/gid-115296/pid-115296,_grid,f-10002+12002/pn-1&re=US&co=US&la=EN






Hi Elle   , the fella with Jake is his best friend from childhood, name of Chris.  He is/was a chef in a NYC restaurant.

[Ellemeno]

Jane, thanks for the link.  When I clicked on it and zoomed in to look more closely at the jacket, this is what I was startled to see.  Look at the upper lefthand corner:

[Brown Eyes]

Hi Clarissa,

That pic you posted didn't take... could you try again?  I'm very curious now!

[welliwont]

Jane, thanks for the link.  When I clicked on it and zoomed in to look more closely at the jacket, this is what I was startled to see.  Look at the upper lefthand corner:

Hi Elle and Amanda,

I don't know what to say, that is a goofy picture Elle.  the tick mark of Nike, looks like to me.  Well when I click on that link I posted it takes me to Nike website, and then to a marcromedia flashplayer bs thingie, that is what must be causing the prob.  It couldn't just send me to a regular old website with a regular old picture, OH NOOOOOO.  Anyway, it is not much to see, just the same jacket as Jakey and his buddy are wearing.....

cheers ladies, I am going to bed....   

[David In Indy]

Hi Clarissa,

That pic you posted didn't take... could you try again?  I'm very curious now!

So am I!

[Ellemeno]

Hm, I see it fine.  I'll make it a jpg and re-upload.  BRB.

[welliwont]

Hm, I see it fine.  I'll make it a jpg and re-upload.  BRB.

Here Elle, I already did, 'cause now I see what you were referring to, THAT IS SOOOOO COOL!!!   

[David In Indy]

Hm, I see it fine.  I'll make it a jpg and re-upload.  BRB.

That is really cool, Clarissa!

I'm gonna keep looking to see if I can find "David" in there someplace. 

[Ellemeno]

Here Elle, I already did, 'cause now I see what you were referring to, THAT IS SOOOOO COOL!!!   

Personally, I think it's a miracle.  But why would the gods pick me, a simple Heathen, to visit this miracle upon?

[welliwont]

Personally, I think it's a miracle.  But why would the gods pick me, a simple Heathen, to visit this miracle upon?

Good question!  maybe they want you to convert to Gyllenhaalism?? 

J

[David In Indy]

Clarissa, in the spirit of the picture you just posted, I thought I would offer you this....

(This was a picture posted a few weeks ago... probably by Roland or Dottie; I can't remember for certain)

Look over to the left, just next to his hand...





It doesn't mean a thing, does it? But it sure is fun to think about! haha. 

[Flashframe777]

I don't think this is an isolated incident.  Jake was also photographed last year wardrobe swapping with a guy (this guy, I think).  But I don't have that pic as a handy reference.

Elle...nice jacket. If you look in the bottom right, you can almost make out the letter FLAS....

[Kelda]

But then, where was all the outrage with "Will & Grace"? That show regurgitated decades old gay stereotypes every single week. Will and Jack? Give me a break. Jack the flaming queen and Will the preppy compulsive "neat freak". I guarantee you Will & Grace was a show that offended many gay Americans; myself included.

What about "Queer Eye for the Straight Guy"? Another offensive show to many gay people. Carson Kressley? That man flames like a welding torch. He IS the typical gay stereotype.  Where's the anger?

These kinds of shows do far more harm to the gay community than a "Jake in drag" skit on SNL could ever do.

Just wondered what people's take was.. Would people rather that these shows did not exist?

Is it better for people to 'come round' to 'likeable' effeminate characters and accept them before they accept 'normal' gay men or lesbian women?

I'm just interested in people's view on this.

My answer - I actually don't mind Will & Grace - its that type of TV you don't have to think about too much. Does it hurt the gay community? I really really am not sure - i think I'll hve to ponder on it myself.

[Ellemeno]

Here's a good version of the performance just posted to Youtube:

"This video has been removed at the request of copyright owner NBC Universal because its content was used without permission"

[injest]

ROTF!!

ok...now this is really really bad...I am sitting here trying to download the Youtubes(on dialup no less) to see if it is as cringe worthy as I thought at first?? taking forever...tying up the computer...

and I HAVE it on video tape!! I recorded it here at my home!! Right over there...just push the button...

 

SHEESH!

[Kelda]

ROTF!!

ok...now this is really really bad...I am sitting here trying to download the Youtubes(on dialup no less) to see if it is as cringe worthy as I thought at first?? taking forever...tying up the computer...

and I HAVE it on video tape!! I recorded it here at my home!! Right over there...just push the button...

 

SHEESH!

You're on dial up with the amount of posts you make every day!? My goodness Jess - what a feat! I wish I had your patience!

[Andrew]

You know, Andrew, I only saw QEFTSG once or twice, but I think I saw this one. (Wasn't there something involving wooing the girlfriend with some really deluxe chocolate?) Anyway, if it's the one I'm thinking of, you're right, it was genuinely touching!

I didn't need to watch the show any more than that because I figured, you've seen one, you've seen a season's worth. But I left the show with fairly positive feelings because of that particular episode.

I felt the same.  I had extracted the one thing I could relate to from the show's concept and felt I didn't want to dilute or undercut it by watching again.

[Andrew]

Yes Andrew, the show does have it's sweet moments. I have only watched the show about 3 times, and that was enough for me. Maybe I should watch it again. Maybe I didn't give the show enough of a chance. But even with the sweet endings, somehow the negative stereotypes far outweigh any warm and fuzzy feeling the program might give me.

I respect your comment Andrew, just as I very much respect you. But I think I will respectfully disagree with you on this one.  

We're in agreement, David.  I never watched the program again after that once because I didn't want a repeat of all the rest.  If I were rich I would hire someone to make edits of television shows so I could see that one minute out of hours and days I thought was worth watching.

Then again, it wouldn't feel the same because I wouldn't have 'earned' those moments.

[MaineWriter]

Hi everyone,

Here I am, a day late and a dollar short since I watched Saturday Night Live on Sunday (we taped it). My 2 cents...

I thought the drag thing was funny, but not hysterical. Maybe if I had seen it cold, without knowing it was coming on, it would have been funnier. Who knows? Since I haven't seen Dreamgirls (the movie or the show) the actual meaning of the song went right past me, but I certainly knew what the reference was to.

No one else had mentioned it, but do people really believe that the "cowboys" in the audience were real audience members? I mean with the goofy grins and the hamming it up...I think they were there on purpose (a plant, or whatever the term would be) specifically to react to the "my new fanbase" joke. In other words, I don't think it was a coincidence that there was a gaggle of guys in the front row in cowboy attire. My thought is that it was engineered by the producers.

In terms of who would be offended...the skit that left a bad taste in my mouth was the wheelchair one, near the end. To me, that one was not funny, even remotely so, and I didn't appreciate Jake's leering behavior. Yuck.

I had a very good laugh at the Brooklyn girls and their book guest, Frank O'Connor. I also laughed at the "President" at the beginning and the Donald Trump press conference (but Jake wasn't in either of those).

All the other skits...nothing particularly memorable, nothing side-splittingly funny, but the show didn't put me to sleep (it probably would have if I had been watching it at 11:30 pm, though).

For those of us who remember SNL in the old days, we have this wonderful memory for skits we can quote verbatim: landsharks, killer bees, Samurai Delicatessen, "baseball has been bery, bery good to me!" But I think we need to keep in mind that in between the funny stuff, they had their fair share of duds...which we don't remember now, nor can we quote. Just like the singing meatball will soon be gone from my memory, so is the singing meatball of yesteryear.

I think the other things going against Jake were 1) his youth and relative inexperience in hosting a show like this and 2) the fact that he is not a comedian. My memory of the really funny shows were the ones with hosts who were really funny...like Steve Martin. Jake got plunked in a bunch of so-so skits and doesn't seem to have the experience or skill (at this moment) to really pull it off and turn it into something funny. Then again, some of those were not turnable. He did the best he could with what he was given.

Last, the ensemble (do they still call them the Not Ready for Prime Time players? I don't think so) didn't seem to have a whole lot of comedic talent, either. Maybe they are all new and young and need to hone their craft a bit, but until they get a core of funny people...or even one really funny person (Eddie Murphy and Will Ferrell come to mind) the show will never hit the peaks that we remember from the past.

Leslie

[ednbarby]

Gee, Leslie.  Tell us how you really feel. 

I thought Jake did very well, actually.  Yes, I'm biased, but at the same time, I was anxious for him to do well and so was probably set up to be more hyper-critical than most.  I haven't watched the show in years, so I don't know how he did compared to, say, Justin Timberlake or Natalie Portman or even Alec Baldwin last week.  I think it's a little unfair to compare him to a comedian like Steve Martin.  None of these guys they have hosting these days are comedians.  Considering how young he is, I think he did great.

I'm with you, though, in that I didn't care much for the wheelchair skit.  I tried to give it the benefit of the doubt and see it as satirizing people's stereotyping of other groups.  But at the end of it when they hit it off anyway, it sort of left a bad taste in my mouth.

And I thought Weekend Update sucked out loud.  In that case, it's hard not to compare it to incarnations of it from the past - of course Chevy Chase and Jane Curtain were the classic hosts, with Gilda Radner doing her Emily Litella and Rosanne Rosannadanna bits.  I still say "Never mind" like Emily when I mishear someone and say something stupid and realize my mistake and I still every now and then say, "It's always something - if it's not one thing, it's another..." a la Roseanne.  And Dennis Miller was a riot, too, when he took it over (back when he was still funny).  Even Kevin Nealon and Norm McDonald were funnier than those two.  It turned out to be a good time for a bathroom break, it was so lame.

I won't be watching again unless they have another guest host or band I really like.  But overall, it wasn't nearly as lame as I expected it to be.  I thought the sketch after the monologue was hilarious, and I also really liked the Bronx Chat sketch.  That's more than I expected to like considering how the writing's been in recent years.  I stopped watching altogether, really, once Dana Carvey and Mike Myers and that group were no longer on it.  I don't think it's been funny at all, except in fits and starts, since then.

[ednbarby]

"This video has been removed at the request of copyright owner NBC Universal because its content was used without permission"

Here's a link to the IHJ page from which you can download his sketches (and monologue): 

http://www.iheartjake.com/tvappearances.htm

[BBM-Cat]

No one else had mentioned it, but do people really believe that the "cowboys" in the audience were real audience members? I mean with the goofy grins and the hamming it up...I think they were there on purpose (a plant, or whatever the term would be) specifically to react to the "my new fanbase" joke. In other words, I don't think it was a coincidence that there was a gaggle of guys in the front row in cowboy attire. My thought is that it was engineered by the producers.

I too had that immediate perception - that the 'cowboys' were all planted actors  - a parody of JG's own request for 'no Brokeback jokes'.

[Kelda]

Oh yeah, they were def actors - no doubt about that. Think it would be obvious to everyone that watched - even the homophobes.

[welliwont]

ok, my turn to review    

I watched it live, and boy was I disappointed!       not by Jakey, but by the lame pathetic skits.  Of course I had such high expectations, so no wonder I was so let down.  The dancing meatballs were the worst, talk about cringe-worthy!!  They belong on Sesame Street.  My inital impression was that every skit sucked big time, and I was totally pissed at the writers.  Poor Jakey did what he could with such crappy skits.

The reason for this late review is I surprised myself very much, I watched it again yesterday (oh yeah!) and actually liked it way way more.  Probably because it was Jake, of course, but I did laugh, and a lot.  I still think the meatballs skit was THE stupidest, and I did not care for the lazer cats thingie either, but as for the wheelchair skit, I thought it was funny for Jake and the girl's over-acting.  Even though the two other characters were in wheelchairs, I mean, so what!  Can we never have skits using wheelchair-bound characters?  The skit was about people's stereotyping, so???  It was funny, laughing at the stereotypers.  I don't think anyone was laughing at the wheelchair people...  Well anyway, I thought it was funny.  and Jakey was good, of course.

The opening was excellent, I mean, Jakey did GREEEEAT, he really belted out that song, and never faltered, at least that I could tell.  As for the planted cowboys, they were funny, the expressions were priceless.  Yeah they were caricatures of gay cowboys, but funny.....  I go back and forth on whether Jakey dissed the gay community on that point.  He did do a drag bit, which should not offend, I guess, some gay people like drag shows don't they?  For those that don't oh well.  As for the planted cowboys, well that is SNL's way, typical SNL humour.  I guess all I can say is I don't think it was too disrespectful to BBM, we gotta be able to laugh at it sometime.  I mean, look at the PT!!

Anyway, that is my review, the main point I wanted to get across is, you might want to watch the show again, it was wayyyyy funnier for me the second time around.

J

[southendmd]

The two "cowboys" in the front row were actually cast members:  Will Forte and somebody else.  

What bothered me, after the reference to Jake's "new fan base", was when he asked them if they were gay cowboys, they answered, "no, just regular cowboys" in a macho voice.  And then, gigled and carried on during the drag number, which Jake said he thought his new fan base would like.

I don't really think this was a parody of Ennis's denial of his being gay.  Couldn't help but take it as a bit of a slam on us Brokies.  Perhaps I'm being too sensitive.  Can we laugh at ourselves?

When some of us dress up in cowboy/cowgirl attire, I guess that's a kind of drag also.

[welliwont]

.... which Jake said he thought his new fan base would like.

Hi Paul,  took Jake's statement "thought his new fan base would like" as reference to his performance, not as reference to the two planted cowboys' performance.
 

[serious crayons]

It's not just those two cowboys who were planted. There was a whole section of planted gay cowboys in the first few rows on the other side. And yes, they were what was irksome about that segment -- not Jake's drag. I don't think they were making fun of Brokies specifically, nor even gay cowboys exactly. They were making fun of gay men.

Ironically, the sketch reinforced the very stereotypes that BBM itself debunks. What if the first two planted cowboys had been Jack and Ennis? Well, then nobody would get the joke -- because there's no obvious signs that they're gay. They would just be cowboys, presumably straight. SNL thinks, or at least they think that viewers think, that you tell the difference between straight men and gay men by their stereotyped behavior.

In that respect, I liked the wheelchair sketch better. It wasn't very funny after the first minute or two (almost all SNL sketches take one joke, repeat it over and over, then fizzle out). But at least in the wheelchair one, they were making fun of the stereotypers instead of the stereotypees.

[ednbarby]

Good call, Katherine.  That's what I liked about the wheelchair sketch, too.

Yeah, I would have liked the Dreamgirls bit *way* better if the two SNL castmember plants stayed in the Ennis and Jack mode.  i.e., if he'd done his drag bit and they'd just sat there like "Are we supposed to like this, or was he talking about someone else?"  But like you said, only us Brokies would get the joke, and SNL's demographic is not well-educated, mostly-liberal, unusually compassionate and intelligent people who know a great movie when they see one.  It's basically the very people who irk the crap out of us at the imDb board.

It's a shame that they didn't choose to use their power for good for a change.  But like my friend yesterday said, it's SNL. What can you expect?

[MaineWriter]

The two "cowboys" in the front row were actually cast members:  Will Forte and somebody else. 

Shows how much I have watched SNL in recent years if I can't even recognize a cast member! LOL

What bothered me, after the reference to Jake's "new fan base", was when he asked them if they were gay cowboys, they answered, "no, just regular cowboys" in a macho voice.  And then, gigled and carried on during the drag number, which Jake said he thought his new fan base would like.

I don't really think this was a parody of Ennis's denial of his being gay.  Couldn't help but take it as a bit of a slam on us Brokies.  Perhaps I'm being too sensitive.  Can we laugh at ourselves?

I don't know if it is laughing at ourselves as opposed to being hyperaware. The whole thing seemed to go by so fast. I suspect that 95% of the people who watched it had forgetten it by morning.

When some of us dress up in cowboy/cowgirl attire, I guess that's a kind of drag also.

And by the same token, wearing LL Bean boots, a fleece top and turtleneck would be Maine drag in Wyoming? LOL

L



[/quote]

[serious crayons]

SNL's demographic is not well-educated, mostly-liberal, unusually compassionate and intelligent people who know a great movie when they see one.  It's basically the very people who irk the crap out of us at the imDb board.

Good way to put it, Barb. The segment was pandering to that lowest common denominator -- the same way Leno and the others do.

They don't need to do it. I think the SNL demographic must overlap quite a bit with the Jon Stewart/Stephen Colbert demographic. Yet those guys are able to make jokes that refer to homosexuality but don't pander.

Leslie, as I watched the beginning part where they play the jazzy music and show NYC nightlife scenes and name all the cast members, I listed to my sons which ones I'd heard of before. I knew maybe three or four out of the -- what? -- 12 or so people?

[Lumière]

Not completely OT because here was someone who fought stereotypes..


Happy Martin Luther King Jr Day, people. 


Added:
I remember when Heath's "teapot stance" thing was debated back and forth for what seemed like forever .. lol.. I didn't see the big deal with that,  but that's another story.  I think we can get sensitive because we are very close to the characters that are Jack and Ennis and obviously, Jake and Heath and we expect them to behave a certain way.  Others have talked about this on this thread already.  My point:  this too will pass. 

[ednbarby]

You're right, Lucise.  Ultimately, as someone else said here, Brokeback Mountain was a job for Jake and Heath.  They did wonderfully well at it - so much so that those characters seem like real people to those of us the movie really touched.  But at the end of the day, that's all it was - a job.  I don't hold Jake responsible for what SNL wrote for him to do any more than I hold him responsible for all those lame-ass gay jokes Jay Leno's people felt it was necessary for Jay to tell the night they had Jake on last year to promote the movie.

And like I've said, I do give whoever was the biggest influence on the decision some credit for not milking the Brokeback thing any more/longer than they did.  It certainly wasn't nearly as cringe-inducing as that Lance Armstrong/Espys debacle last year, and it is a parody show, after all.  But I also agree that it's a shame they don't have their shit together nearly as much as The Daily Show/The Colbert Report does when it comes to satirizing the stereotypers instead of the stereotyped.  Then again, that's why The Daily Show has won - how many now? Five? - Emmys in the last decade and SNL hasn't won any, in like, four score and seven years.  You get what you pay for.

It's still a career coup to get to host SNL - it's still a pop culture phenomenon, even if in name only - and I'm happy for Jake that he got to do it and did so well with it.  I guess I was just prepared to cringe all the way through it, so when I didn't except for one aspect of the very beginning, I was pleasantly surprised.

[serious crayons]

I don't hold Jake responsible for what SNL wrote for him to do any more than I hold him responsible for all those lame-ass gay jokes Jay Leno's people felt it was necessary for Jay to tell the night they had Jake on last year to promote the movie.

I do, however, blame Jay. Especially because Jay Leno tells lame-ass gay jokes all the time, whether Jake is on or not. At least, I gather he does. I rarely watch his show, but when I saw it on Easter weekend -- i.e., four or five months after the movie came out -- and counted four (4!) BBM jokes, I assumed it was a pretty regular thing.

Then again, Jay tells lame-ass sexist jokes, too -- of the "men are Neandrethals who burp, can't ask directions and hog the remote" and "women get stuck with all the housework and worry about whether clothes make their ass look fat" variety. I find those offensive, too. And they're certainly based on tired, tired stereotypes.

The one thing I've never heard him tell is a racist joke. I wonder why he doesn't get the difference.

[ednbarby]

The one thing I've never heard him tell is a racist joke. I wonder why he doesn't get the difference.

I think it's because it's no longer socially acceptable to be a racist, but it still is to be a homophobe and a misogynist.

[dot-matrix]

Screen Cap of Uncle Jake in his Ramona shirt for anyone who missed it. 

[Scott6373]

I'm not sure if this is a debate or not, but, while I am certainly not a person who would be considerred "politically correct", when it comes to offensive humor, there is a very fine line between what is funny and what is based (albeit subconsciously) in hate and fear.  Also, it has, in recent years, become a socially accepted behavior to poke fun at marginalized factions of society in order to make them feel "like one of the gang".  The problem with this (especially in the case of GLBT people) is that the humor is often derived from amplifications of stereotypes that, I am sure, we would all rather not be associated with.  Now, the gay community is not blameless on this.  We are as intolerant a group of people as any other, and in some cases more so.  Jake in drag?  Who cares?  I can tell you one thing however.  He did that skit, much for the same reason that "Casanova" was released on the heals of BBM.  Career, money and a continued fear of being objectified and pigeon holed into a certain type...a certain STEREOTYPE.

[serious crayons]

Quote from: latjoreme on Today at 02:33:05 PM
The one thing I've never heard him tell is a racist joke. I wonder why he doesn't get the difference.

I think it's because it's no longer socially acceptable to be a racist, but it still is to be a homophobe and a misogynist.

Clearly. And most of the audience doesn't seem to mind. But I think Jay Leno is, appearances notwithstanding, a fairly intelligent guy. And his wife is a feminist global activist, right? You'd think this stuff would cross his mind from time to time.

[delalluvia]

Then again, Jay tells lame-ass sexist jokes, too -- of the "men are Neandrethals who burp, can't ask directions and hog the remote" and "women get stuck with all the housework and worry about whether clothes make their ass look fat" variety. I find those offensive, too. And they're certainly based on tired, tired stereotypes.

Just a thought.  If he was an equal opportunity offender on stereotypes, does it count?  Haven't some comedians made a living on offending pretty much everyone?

[jakefan]

I just want to add that I saw the show Saturday and I never watch the show...ever.  It has to be somebody I love on the show to watch it.  So, of course I watched it because Jake was on there.  I loved the opening.  I was not expecting him to have a dress on underneath.  I wasn't really sure what he was getting at when he says that he was going to do something for his new fan base.  I thought he did very well with his singing.  You could tell that he rehearsed that song!  I hope he does a movie where he really gets to sing because he sounds like he has a nice voice.  I agree with the ones that liked the skit where he is prompting his book (I can't remember his character's name right now) and didn't like the meatballs skit (that's the one the writers really should have rewritten).  I also really liked the first skit where he is in his polar bear coat singing a song that has only raised $40.  I thought he did a great job hosting and he managed to be funny even when his material wasn't very funny. 

[injest]

just had a thought...when he said he was going to do something for his new and 'unique' fanbase...how about if he or the writers or SOMEONE had taken a look on one of these fan sites...and had HEATH come out and recreate 'the kiss'??!!

now THAT woulda made the show AND made us ALL feel valued!!

to heck with singing!!

 
 

[Flashframe777]

had HEATH come out and recreate 'the kiss'??!!
______________________________________

It would have been even better for me if he and Heath had recreated the 1st Tent Scene as the SNL opener.  But I guess that would have offended too many people.


Who is RAMON  A?

[MaineWriter]

had HEATH come out and recreate 'the kiss'??!!
______________________________________

It would have been even better for me if he and Heath had recreated the 1st Tent Scene as the SNL opener.  But I guess that would have offended too many people.


Who is RAMON  A?

Ramona...his niece, daughter of his sister Maggie.

L

[Flashframe777]

Oh, that's so sweet.  I'm enjoying a new niece too.  And here I am making sly fun of his shirt...tsk tsk tsk.

[David In Indy]

Just wondered what people's take was.. Would people rather that these shows did not exist?

Is it better for people to 'come round' to 'likeable' effeminate characters and accept them before they accept 'normal' gay men or lesbian women?

I'm just interested in people's view on this.

My answer - I actually don't mind Will & Grace - its that type of TV you don't have to think about too much. Does it hurt the gay community? I really really am not sure - i think I'll hve to ponder on it myself.

Hi Kelda!

You mean like the gay version of  President Bush's "Shock and Awe"?? Shock them now so they'll accept us later?

Nope. I'll be happy when everyone (Americans in particular) views the gay community as a normal, functioning, worthwhile group of people.

I see where you are going with this Kelda, but shows like "Will & Grace" are bad... really bad; especially in a country like the United States.

[iristarr]

Well, yesterday I had Jake's SNL performance on YouTube, but now they've taken it off, with a message that it had not been given permission to be used.  What's that all about, anyone know?  And I was ready to get my daily Jake-in-drag fix.  Anyone know where else that video could be obtained?  I just personally loved his screaming falsetto and bulging deltoids!!!

[Kelda]

Hi Kelda!

You mean like the gay version of  President Bush's "Shock and Awe"?? Shock them now so they'll accept us later?

Nope. I'll be happy when everyone (Americans in particular) views the gay community as a normal, functioning, worthwhile group of people.

I see where you are going with this Kelda, but shows like "Will & Grace" are bad... really bad; especially in a country like the United States.

True - sadly I've never really thought about it in this way before - I've never had to. When I clock off at the end of the day I'm not always a big thinker (- I use my brain enough at work!) And I watch these shows generally without the political mindset thoughts in my head. But I guess I forget that while I can see that this is comedy and not necessarily real life - not everyone thinks in that way.

Well, yesterday I had Jake's SNL performance on YouTube, but now they've taken it off, with a message that it had not been given permission to be used.  What's that all about, anyone know?  And I was ready to get my daily Jake-in-drag fix.  Anyone know where else that video could be obtained?  I just personally loved his screaming falsetto and bulging deltoids!!!

Thats a shame - what about IheartJake.com?

[David In Indy]

Well, yesterday I had Jake's SNL performance on YouTube, but now they've taken it off, with a message that it had not been given permission to be used.  What's that all about, anyone know?  And I was ready to get my daily Jake-in-drag fix.  Anyone know where else that video could be obtained?  I just personally loved his screaming falsetto and bulging deltoids!!!

I posted some pics of Jake in drag on the first page of this thread. Check it out! Sorry about the quality of the pics though. I took screen shots off my computer screen. 

[David In Indy]

True - sadly I've never really thought about it in this way before - I've never had to. When I clock off at the end of the day I'm not always a big thinker (- I use my brain enough at work!) And I watch these shows generally without the political mindset thoughts in my head. But I guess I forget that while I can see that this is comedy and not necessarily real life - not everyone thinks in that way.

[[[[[Kelda]]]]]]

Hugs to you hon! 

[delalluvia]

Hi Kelda!

You mean like the gay version of  President Bush's "Shock and Awe"?? Shock them now so they'll accept us later?

Nope. I'll be happy when everyone (Americans in particular) views the gay community as a normal, functioning, worthwhile group of people.

I see where you are going with this Kelda, but shows like "Will & Grace" are bad... really bad; especially in a country like the United States.

I think Kelda might have been thinking it's more like the Civil Rights marches of the 60's.  Shock and awe to be sure for middle America.  Such things brought the plight of minority people to the limelight.  Not every black was a marching activist, not every hispanic was a striking farmworker, but it certainly brought them into the public eye - 'we are here!'. 'Will and Grace' and 'Queer Eye' may be stereotypical, but most stereotypes are based in reality.  Wasn't BBM simply showing another facet of the same community?  Yes, gay people can be effeminate or whatever, but they can also be so straight acting John Q Public would never guess.

[David In Indy]

I think Kelda might have been thinking it's more like the Civil Rights marches of the 60's.  Shock and awe to be sure for middle America.  Such things brought the plight of minority people to the limelight.  Not every black was a marching activist, not every hispanic was a striking farmworker, but it certainly brought them into the public eye - 'we are here!'. 'Will and Grace' and 'Queer Eye' may be stereotypical, but most stereotypes are based in reality.  Wasn't BBM simply showing another facet of the same community?  Yes, gay people can be effeminate or whatever, but they can also be so straight acting John Q Public would never guess.

The devil is in the details Delalluvia. I think Kelda inadvertently addressed the source of the problem when she asked her question.

Kelda said: "I actually don't mind Will & Grace - its that type of TV you don't have to think about too much."

It's a television show people don't have to think about. See what I mean, Dela? People are getting bombarded with all these "stereotypes on steroids" and yet they don't have to think. Later, after they turn off the TV, they forget about the show but remember the stereotypes. My Mother used to tell me people will believe just about anything if they see it or hear it enough times. We like to think we're not impressionable, but in reality most people are to varying degrees.

I think "Will & Grace" fans can be divided into three camps:

1. Those who watch the show because they find the stereotypes funny and it gives them a golden opportunity to laugh at us.

2. Those who watch it and innocently begin to believe the stereotypes.

3. Those who know better and simply watch the show purely for entertainment.

Unfortunately, I think many people fall into the first group, and to a lesser degree the second group (at least here in the US)

Stereotypes hurt. It doesn't matter if the stereotypes are about African Americans, women, Jews, Muslims, Catholics, Native Americans, gays, or any other group of people. They drag people down and offer others even more reasons to continue perpetuating their prejudices.

[Kelda]

I was probably somewhere in between you both in my thinking when asking the question.

If I say straight what comes out of my head right now... I just feel if we return to the point before Will & Grace and Queer Eye for The Straight Guy that that would be worse. Like pretending that Gays and Lesbians don't exist - much like when blacks didn't exist in 'tv land'. Or if they did appear, they were only playing the role of servants/slaves - for 'authenticity'.

Am I saying that a stereotype - which can slowly be 'brought round' to a more real character - is better than nothing - I don't know to be honest.

In the UK - I would think that the majority are in the no 2 who watch it and innocently begin to believe the stereotypes. category - moving towards the third Those who know better and simply watch the show purely for entertainment category. Certainly, as a whole, in comparison, the UK is more 'progressive'.

So David - you liked Jake's skit. Am I right in thinking you're fine with the drag bit, but not so fine about the cowboys in the front row?

xx

[David In Indy]

Hey Kelda!

Yes, I loved Jake's Jennifer Hudson impersonation! I also appreciated why Jake did it. I think anyone would admit it took a great amount of courage.

The gay cowboys? That was kind of bad, wasn't it? But, we must remember we're talking about SNL, and gay cowboys are to be expected.

Yes, the UK (and Western Europe) are far more progressive than the US. Hopefully someday we'll catch up to you all! 

[mvansand76]

The gay cowboys? That was kind of bad, wasn't it? But, we must remember we're talking about SNL, and gay cowboys are to be expected.

They might have been bad, yes, and a cheap laugh really, but I loved the expression on their faces, especially of the cowboy on the left when he said "Nope, just regular cowboys..." Who is that guy, does anybody know?

[newyearsday]

I think it's good we are talking about all these things as a community. It's nice that we're doing it so civilly as Clarissa pointed out, I think.

What seems true is that we all have our opinions, like in any community, which is healthy and normal. Re: the wheelchair sketch, I loved it for the same reasons that Katherine mentioned, that it was poking fun at the stereotypers and their laughable, over-the-top attempts to cover up their narrow-minded, pigeonholeing behavior.

On the other hand, I didn't like the cast plants as gay cowboys very much in the opening monologue, mostly because they were just not that funny to me. But I still believe Jake was really trying to say something about his loyalty to the gay/brokeback fanbase with the song, as I posted about earlier on page 4 of the thread.

Personally I like both Queer Eye and Will and Grace. Sure, Jack and Carson can get tired sometimes as stereotypes go, but I often find them both funny and talented. All comedies have to have extreme characters, and so Jack is that in the show. Ninety percent of my co-workers are gay males, and though no one is exactly like Jack, a couple of people resemble his character to a degree (if they completely resembled it, they wouldn't have a job). I love working where I hear guys calling each other "bitch" in jest, and I don't find anything wrong with W&G playing up one of the more obvious segments of the gay population for its humorous shallowness and bitchiness.

Yes, it's only one side of the community, and I agree that's too bad...but then again it's also only one show. If half the shows on TV were about gay characters I think we'd find more variety portrayed. What I loved about the show was its embrace of sexuality in general and its sheer refusal to take sexual labels and morality seriously (i.e. Karen as a selfish, shallow, alcoholic omnisexual who is nevertheless married to a man she loves even though we never see him). It also addressed important themes at times, like the one where Will was dating someone who was afraid to come out and Will ended the relationship because of it.

I guess we all have our tolerance levels; some people find things funny and others do not. All of our own convictions are rooted in our personal experiences of life, and some have experienced more pain than others where stereotypes are concerned. Still others have experienced a lot of pain due to prejudices and stereotypes and have developed either a thick skin or a way to fight back. I think that many gay men like Carson have developed their scathing and catty senses of humor as a response to all the name calling they endured while growing up.

As for SNL, it's true that its heyday is long past, but since several people have wondered if the cast is new and young, I can say that three or four members are very new, two or three have a couple or three seasons under their belts, and at least five -- Amy Pohler, Maya Rudolf, Darrell Hammond, Will Forte, and Seth Meyers -- have been on the cast for between four and six years, maybe longer.

If you want to see a great SNL skit from the relatively recent past (2 plus years ago) with Jimmy Fallon and Justin Timberlake, click on the link below. I don't think you'll be disappointed, though if you don't remember the BeeGees, it will be totally lost on you:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4eglacD5ujY
 (see below for Jane's live link which is for the same sketch)

Jenny

[David In Indy]

Hey Jenny and Kelda!

I appreciate what you both are saying. I really do. I just wish more people had the openmindedness the two of you possess.

What if the powers that be decided to bring back "Black Face" featuring African Americans eating watermelon and fried chicken? What do you suppose would happen? There would be outrage, and rightfully so. It's an appalling, disgusting, hurtful and completely inaccurate portrayal of African Americans and Blacks.

What if they remade some of those 1950's programs of Native Americans wildly dancing around a bonfire, chugging their "fire water" as they raped the local White women and piilaged the nearby town? Again there would be outrage. Thank God.

I suppose the gay community will have to walk through the fire, just as many other minorities had to do before us. But it doesn't make it any less painful. Please forgive me if I bitch about it every once in awhile. 

I'll be a happier camper once the word "Fag" isn't used so casually and nonchalantly on television. They used it on "Will & Grace" all the time, along with a few other choice words.

[David In Indy]

They might have been bad, yes, and a cheap laugh really, but I loved the expression on their faces, especially of the cowboy on the left when he said "Nope, just regular cowboys..." Who is that guy, does anybody know?

I have no idea who that guy is, Melissa. I wonder if one of the SNL fan sites might have some information? If I think about it, I'll take a look later for you! 

[ednbarby]

That cowboy's name is Will Forte.  He is a regular SNL cast member.

[Kelda]

Hey Jenny and Kelda!

I appreciate what you both are saying. I really do. I just wish more people had the openmindedness the two of you possess.

What if the powers that be decided to bring back "Black Face" featuring African Americans eating watermelon and fried chicken? What do you suppose would happen? There would be outrage, and rightfully so. It's an appalling, disgusting, hurtful and completely inaccurate portrayal of African Americans and Blacks.

What if they remade some of those 1950's programs of Native Americans wildly dancing around a bonfire, chugging their "fire water" as they raped the local White women and piilaged the nearby town? Again there would be outrage. Thank God.

I'll be a happier camper once the word "Fag" isn't used so casually and nonchalantly on television. They used it on "Will & Grace" all the time, along with a few other choice words.

I hate hate hate the word fag. and yes - there would be outrage - hopefully in much less itme there will be outrage at the gay stereotypes on telly.

[Flashframe777]

Shock and Awe, indeed. 

The real civil rights heroes of the gay community were the loud, over-the-top drag Queens who fought back hard against the police who busted them at Stonewall. Drag Queens aren't called "fierce" for nothing.

Kelda, rent the movie "Stonewall" (1995), directed by Nigel Finch, and you'll understand a lot better, and rent Jenny Livingston's poignant "Paris Is Burning".  If these movies don't spell it out, then nothing will.

Brokeback Mountain is so effective because our heroes are completely up against their environment and the time flow.  They take our hearts. 

Stonewall occurs at about the same time period, in an environment that could be somewhat manipulated by it citizens.   They earn our respect.

It shows you people who did what needed to be done, in contrast to those who were too afraid to step up and deal even though, unlike Jack and Ennis, they had the means.

Middle America is the problem.  They are stuck in gray area, and they never move, until moved. 

Whether its civil rights for women, blacks, gays, freedom to worship whatever you want or don't want to, they're issue will always be the same - inaction.

[welliwont]

boy NBC is on the warpath this week!  Jakey's opening monologue will just not stay up at YouTube!   

Well the link above to the Barry Gibb Talk Show does not work anymore, but luckily this one still does, probably bcz it does not have SNL as a tag word.

enjoy, this one is the funniest of the three....   

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTwFCvLbieI&NR

[newyearsday]

Yay, Jane! That link shows the same clip as the other link I posted. Thanks for posting this one, and yes, it's the first of the three and I still think the best. Even though I'd seen it four or five times, when I watched it the other night I was laughing so hard my abs got a serious workout!

Justin's impersonation is so good, he even does the "hand to the ear" for the harmonizing at just the same time and with the same hand as Robin used! (My friend and I checked out a YouTube clip of the Bee Gees doing Nights on Broadway, the song they parody in the sketch.)

Thank god for Jimmy Fallon!

[welliwont]

Hi Jenny!

ya, that is a great clip, I must have watched it 30 times!      The part that cracks me up, (well, one of the parts  ) is how Timberlake can't keep a straight face, hahahahahahaa gotta go watch it again   

[injest]

ok I would like to make a distiction between "Will & Grace" and "Queer Eye"...

Carson is just being Carson...that is who he is...he may exagerate for effect BUT he is a gay man and the show is not a comedy show....

Jack is a made up character...

If a person is effeminate and behaves a certain way, it is NONE of our business to criticize him....if a corporation tries to make money by doing a cheap caricature of the real person THEN I object...

does that make any sense??

and I appreciate people making the point about the wheelchair skit....they were mocking the stereotypers not the minority...

I felt the opening mocked the minority...

[David In Indy]

ok I would like to make a distiction between "Will & Grace" and "Queer Eye"...

Carson is just being Carson...that is who he is...he may exagerate for effect BUT he is a gay man and the show is not a comedy show....

Jack is a made up character...

If a person is effeminate and behaves a certain way, it is NONE of our business to criticize him....if a corporation tries to make money by doing a cheap caricature of the real person THEN I object...

does that make any sense??

and I appreciate people making the point about the wheelchair skit....they were mocking the stereotypers not the minority...

I felt the opening mocked the minority...

Jess, in many ways I am a "Carson"; in other words "effeminate". But I WOULD NEVER do some of the things I have seen him do; not on national television. It's perfectly fine to act "openly gay", it's also fine to flame a little. But when he does things like run his hand up and down the crotch of a straight man, he is simply crossing the line. There is no excuse for behavior like that. What kind of a message does this send to others? Many gay people have been trying to fight this "obsession with sex" stereotype for decades. Carson just comes along and validates it. It's just more ammo for the homophobes.

[Flashframe777]

" it's also fine to flame a little."


That's what I keep telling Vin Diesel.

[welliwont]

ok, here is a link to Jake's Opening monologue and singing on SNL, now this one may actually stay up at YouTube, I hope!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmG2gBAcN-8

[injest]

Jess, in many ways I am a "Carson"; in other words "effeminate". But I WOULD NEVER do some of the things I have seen him do; not on national television. It's perfectly fine to act "openly gay", it's also fine to flame a little. But when he does things like run his hand up and down the crotch of a straight man, he is simply crossing the line. There is no excuse for behavior like that. What kind of a message does this send to others? Many gay people have been trying to fight this "obsession with sex" stereotype for decades. Carson just comes along and validates it. It's just more ammo for the homophobes.

OOPS see that is what happens when you rattle on without knowing what you are talking about!! 

I have only ever seen Carson on the morning and late night talk shows...guess they musta cleaned up the little snippets they showed...never saw the show...yeah, that is obnoxious...

sorry!!

[David In Indy]

That's what I loved about Brokeback Mountain, Jess. There were no cheap gay stereotypes in the movie (and I must admit I was very afraid there would be the first time I saw the movie). The movie was about two men in love. Period. And it made us think too. Hell, we're sitting here over a year later still discussing and analyzing it. I wish they would create a sitcom like Brokeback Mountain. A sitcom (or some kind of weekly program) about a group of gay men without all the cheap shots. Do you think it will EVER happen?

I can't figure out what NBC was thinking when they created Will & Grace. The money was talking to them, obviously. They certainly weren't looking out for the interests of gay people in this country.

[[[[[Jess]]]]]]   

[mvansand76]

That cowboy's name is Will Forte.  He is a regular SNL cast member.

Aaaaaah thank you! 

[injest]

That's what I loved about Brokeback Mountain, Jess. There were no cheap gay stereotypes in the movie (and I must admit I was very afraid there would be the first time I saw the movie). The movie was about two men in love. Period. And it made us think too. Hell, we're sitting here over a year later still discussing and analyzing it. I wish they would create a sitcom like Brokeback Mountain. A sitcom (or some kind of weekly program) about a group of gay men without all the cheap shots. Do you think it will EVER happen?

I can't figure out what NBC was thinking when they created Will & Grace. The money was talking to them, obviously. They certainly weren't looking out for the interests of gay people in this country.

[[[[[Jess]]]]]]   

A drama that featured gay men using actors that are not so stressed or stiff about playing gay...that just told the stories of gay guys without all the cheap shots??

that would be a pleasant surprise...and maybe ever once in a while they could let there be a happy ending!! 

Don't hold your breath though I would miss you!

ps...

I was watching Brothers and Sisters the other night and there was a scene where two guys were flirting back and forth and I had the EWWW feeling....and I was feeling bad about being homophobic...then I realized I NEVER had the EWWW feeling when I was watching BBM...maybe it wasn't homophobia....maybe it was really bad acting!! 

(the guy that is playing the gay son does fine when he is interacting with his siblings but lort when he has to interact romantically with a man? you can hear the wood creaking like an old rowboat)

[Kelda]

'Queer Eye' To End


 Hit US makeover show Queer Eye For The Straight Guy is to wrap up after the series' fifth season this summer. The show, which has spawned a number of foreign shows, features five gay stylists who transform culturally challenged heterosexuals into well-groomed trendsetters. The program has been a big hit on US cable network Bravo for the past four years. The reality show will make way for new programs featuring Paula Abdul, and Project Runway star Tim Gunn. Abdul's new series, which is tentatively titled Hey Paula!, will follow the "Straight Up" singer and American Idol judge in her professional and personal life.

From IMDB today

[Scott6373]

From IMDB today

All I can say is...Thank God

[serious crayons]

The reality show will make way for new programs featuring Paula Abdul, and Project Runway star Tim Gunn. Abdul's new series, which is tentatively titled Hey Paula!, will follow the "Straight Up" singer and American Idol judge in her professional and personal life.

From IMDB today

As I said, I only watched one or two episodes of "Queer Eye." But I can't imagine making it through 15 minutes of "Hey Paula!" What is our culture coming to? 

[Ellemeno]

Does anybody else think Jake lip-synched the song?  I'm assuming he lip-synched to his own singing, but I've watched the opening three times and I'm pretty sure.

[ednbarby]

That thought didn't even occur to me.  I suppose it's possible.  I haven't watched my TiVo'ed copy of it yet - I've only seen it on the web - and it looks pretty authentic at least there to me.

[Ellemeno]

That thought didn't even occur to me.  I suppose it's possible.  I haven't watched my TiVo'ed copy of it yet - I've only seen it on the web - and it looks pretty authentic at least there to me.

It looks to me like he did a really good job, but you can sometimes tell, especially at the beginnings and ends of lines.

[ifyoucantfixit]

For those of you who did not like it or were offended let me offer a few thoughts that may help you get past that sense of offense.  SNL is about satire not political correctness. Otherwise President Bush should be having a major hissy fit this morning. Perhaps some of his supporters are, perhaps he is but the point is this anyone who watches SNL should be prepared and willing to have fun poked at their expense.

We forget that these 2 fine actors are not obsessed with this film, we are.    Neither Jake nor Heath signed up to be the poster boys for Gay Rights when they agreed to play these roles.  We all need to lighten up a bit.  I really can't blame Jake and Health for wanting to put the film behind them and move on with their careers. So I feel Jake was being a good sport. I remember reading an acceptance speech made recently by Heath in his native Australia for still yet another BBM recognition award. He stated "this film doesn't want to go away" and in essence, told the audience the best thing to come out of this film is his family.

If I were to have a chance meeting with either two I don't believe I would bring up the subject of BBM. I imagine they are plumb well full of hearing about it.  In a couple of years Heath will be rolling his eyeballs over everyone doing Joker imitations... this too shall pass.


as Clarissa shared from her meeting with Lynne and Truman, Lynne's very wise observation: " We do alot better if we remember that Heath and Jake are NOT Ennis and Jack" (apologies to Lynne if the wording is off)

         well i must say i agree with what you have said...the last half of it that is..the fact that heath, and jake are actors.  they are neither gay nor role models.  they didnt take on the shouldering of all the rest for their life, the very essence of gayness.  they should endeavor to remain correct in their respect for anyone, and that includes the gay and lesbians in the world...if they do something in bad taste that will hurt people..then i believe that they must then answer for that behavior....personally not being gay or lesbian,,i suppose it could be said that i am not qualified to judge the way that he present his jokes or humor,,,but i saw nothing really offensive in what he did on the show....the only thing he did was maybe making the error of deciding to be on a show that i found very badly written.  giveing him routines to do that were neither funny, nor charming...personally i was so bored ,,i fell asleep in the middle. 
         the show that heath was on when he said the movie just wont go away, was the santa barbara film festival awards, and he won for best actor in a lead role/
         i was very disappointed to have the show such a failure, in my opinion he is one of the very best of our young actors.  he has in the past
proven himself to be capable to do humor, off the cuff,,,,and from the written page.  maybe they should have allowed him to do some of the
writing and thereby having the show be at least funny ..  
        i hate to be the true lone dissenter here other than jess and garry...but im not a flame artist,  i never say bad things in my following of
amateur writers...they do not get paid, and have the courage to write, and give the best offering that they can provide...however in my opinion
when a person is getting paid tremendous sums of money to do a certain job, we have the right, maybe the obligation even to give what is the
modern equivilent of the emporers new clothes...attitude....it wasnt funny,,,,after all, isnt that the object...?
        regardless of where or not i find jake to be adorable ...which he most certainly is...and i do...i feel the need to express the fact that i was
personally embaressed by the show and his participation in it....so now ive had my say...you may return to the regularly scheduled broadcast..
                                                                                                                                              janice


(hope you don't mind Janice...fixed the Quote!! Jess.)

[David In Indy]

It looks to me like he did a really good job, but you can sometimes tell, especially at the beginnings and ends of lines.

Clarissa, I have watched my tape of Jake's SNL show last week, and I can't tell if he's lip sycing or not. If he is, he is doing a really good job. I have seen many drag shows, and it takes a great deal of talent to lip sync something so perfectly.

My hunch is he did this live, but I'm not 100% sure. You may be right though. 

[henrypie]

I'd like to observe that this was yet another fearless, totally committed performance by this actor.  I am so in awe.

[MaineWriter]

I'd like to observe that this was yet another fearless, totally committed performance by this actor.  I am so in awe.

Henrypie, hello! It has been ages since I've seen you post. Welcome back!

Leslie

[Kelda]

Henrypie, hello! It has been ages since I've seen you post. Welcome back!

Leslie

i was just thinking that too!

*waves*

[ednbarby]

Henrypie, my other self!  How are you, little darlin'? 

I agree.  In the final analysis, it was a fearless and 100% committed performance.  As was his work in all the other sketches.  You can't blame him for the writing.  I'm in awe of how fearlessly he belted that song out, myself - especially that note on that last "me."  Unbelievable, really.

(And personally, I'm still really enjoying the Bronx Chat sketch, and that Lawyer Commerical one was pretty funny, too.)

[henrypie]

Hey you guys, thanks for the hellos and cheers.  It's nice to be here.  I know I can always hang my hat, though I've been a-driftin.

A sign of how far I've drifted: I FORGOT about Jake on SNL (had it in the back of my mind, but not the front) and was watching Scrubs on DVD, but my sister Tivoed it for me.  Thanks, sis.  I also forgot about the Golden Globes, where he presented.  Speaking of the Golden Globes, and committed performances, and idols, anyone want to discuss Sascha Baron Cohen?  Maybe worth a thread somewhere else.

Back to Jake: thank you, Jake.

[Ellemeno]

I'd like to observe that this was yet another fearless, totally committed performance by this actor.  I am so in awe.

Sarah!  I am sitting hunched over my laptop on the bed in my office in the same position I was in when I was ordering our Aero tickets online, and here you are.  Really, practically the only difference in how my office looks now from that moment roughly exactly a year ago is the sweet mama sheep you made for me hanging on the wall.

Yes, you I would like to hear discuss Sascha Baron Cohen's acceptance sppech.  I wouldn't want to hear it discussed by many, but if you have something to say about it, I'll probably learn something I hadn't thought of.

[Kelda]

Yes, you I would like to hear discuss Sascha Baron Cohen's acceptance sppech.  I wouldn't want to hear it discussed by many, but if you have something to say about it, I'll probably learn something I hadn't thought of.

OOh! What did he say? I must have a look on you tube...

[ednbarby]

The question is really what *didn't* he say?   

[ednbarby]

I totally noticed that.  The only way it would have been better was if he'd said "*So* here I am."   

(Kind of makes you wonder if he had a hand in some of the writing after all.  Well, the good writing, anyway.)

[welliwont]

I totally noticed that.  The only way it would have been better was if he'd said "*So* here I am."   

How fortuitousl!!  This is exactly  the point we are at in ............ the PT!!  here is a link for all of you!

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,2739.msg142256.html#msg142256

 

[newyearsday]

Oh, the good old PT. Thanks Jane! I wish to god I had the 2 or three hours a day I'd need to really do it justice, or even 30 minutes! As it is, just keeping up with three or four normal threads is all I can handle.

But thanks for pointing that out about the "No problem, and here I am" bit, Barbara (it is Barbara right?).

And HELLO Sarah! Yes, I said too that Jake blew me away with his commitment to the song and performance.

And, I don't think it was lipsynched. There was too much physicality in his body to get those notes out the way he did, and after the total shitstorm that Ashlee Simpson went through a couple of years ago when she lipsynched during her band's performance -- and walked off the stage when the music fucked up and exposed her, I don't think anyone is going to try it again on SNL.

[coffeecat33]

I've said it before but I'll say it again. I LOVED Jake's performances on SNL.

His singing "You're Gonna Love Me" was phenomenal (and that dress!  LOVE the deltoids, Jake!)

He was so cute and funny as the mtv4 singer (How much did you earn? Oh I don't know. About forty dollars. It was our worst song! *laughs*giggles*)

Then he went to sweet and adorable on Bronx Beat.

LOVE HIM!!!!!!!!!!

[silkncense]

Just posted this on 'Jake Jake' but since this is more a relevant site -

Blown away by the song performance - but I was put off a bit by Jake's changed appearance - just thought the arms were a little to "Arnold" for me...  (Ducking again...)

[ednbarby]

His arms looked fine to me.  And I do mean fine.   

He's always been pretty ripped, hasn't he?  At least in recent times.  He was quite cut in Jarhead.  They didn't seem overly huge (i.e., performance enhanced) to me.

Maybe it was the cut of the dress. 

[littleguitar]

Yeah, I didn't think his arms looked any different than normal... in fact, when he wasn't wearing a dress I thought to myself that he actually looks thinner now than he has lately. He's always been toned like that, the dress I think just emphasized the muscles. Not that I'm complaining 

Because lately I've been thinking the same thing about Jake, that he was getting too bulky for my tastes (not heavy, I've just never been attracted to muscle-y men), but his SNL appearance re kindled the love 

[oilgun]

i hate to be the true lone dissenter here other than jess and garry[...]I was personally embaressed by the show and his participation in it....so now ive had my say...you may return to the regularly scheduled broadcast..

Count me in as one of the dissenters Janice, my heart sank lower and lower as the opening monologue progressed.  (Hated the flaming cowboys!)  I felt like Jake was undoing everything BbM had achieved as far as breaking down stereotypes.  Then he sings a showtune from a mediocre movie to appeal to his new gay fanbase?  I felt betrayed.... and glad to be more of a Heathen, lol!

[Katie77]

Is there any of Jake on SNL on You Tube?....

If there is, could someone please give me the links.

[David In Indy]

Sue, did you try this link yet....

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=veeajera

Kelda posted this on page two or three of this thread.

Give it a try. Hopefully it will work for you! 

[David In Indy]

Here's another link Sue.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8o6ylKmx7rc

I hope one of them still works!

David.