Author Topic: Jake In Drag??  (Read 43934 times)

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Jake In Drag??
« Reply #120 on: January 16, 2007, 09:35:44 am »
Hi Kelda!

You mean like the gay version of  President Bush's "Shock and Awe"?? Shock them now so they'll accept us later?

Nope. I'll be happy when everyone (Americans in particular) views the gay community as a normal, functioning, worthwhile group of people.

I see where you are going with this Kelda, but shows like "Will & Grace" are bad... really bad; especially in a country like the United States.



I think Kelda might have been thinking it's more like the Civil Rights marches of the 60's.  Shock and awe to be sure for middle America.  Such things brought the plight of minority people to the limelight.  Not every black was a marching activist, not every hispanic was a striking farmworker, but it certainly brought them into the public eye - 'we are here!'. 'Will and Grace' and 'Queer Eye' may be stereotypical, but most stereotypes are based in reality.  Wasn't BBM simply showing another facet of the same community?  Yes, gay people can be effeminate or whatever, but they can also be so straight acting John Q Public would never guess.

Offline David In Indy

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Re: Jake In Drag??
« Reply #121 on: January 16, 2007, 03:18:26 pm »
I think Kelda might have been thinking it's more like the Civil Rights marches of the 60's.  Shock and awe to be sure for middle America.  Such things brought the plight of minority people to the limelight.  Not every black was a marching activist, not every hispanic was a striking farmworker, but it certainly brought them into the public eye - 'we are here!'. 'Will and Grace' and 'Queer Eye' may be stereotypical, but most stereotypes are based in reality.  Wasn't BBM simply showing another facet of the same community?  Yes, gay people can be effeminate or whatever, but they can also be so straight acting John Q Public would never guess.

The devil is in the details Delalluvia. I think Kelda inadvertently addressed the source of the problem when she asked her question.

Kelda said: "I actually don't mind Will & Grace - its that type of TV you don't have to think about too much."

It's a television show people don't have to think about. See what I mean, Dela? People are getting bombarded with all these "stereotypes on steroids" and yet they don't have to think. Later, after they turn off the TV, they forget about the show but remember the stereotypes. My Mother used to tell me people will believe just about anything if they see it or hear it enough times. We like to think we're not impressionable, but in reality most people are to varying degrees.

I think "Will & Grace" fans can be divided into three camps:

1. Those who watch the show because they find the stereotypes funny and it gives them a golden opportunity to laugh at us.

2. Those who watch it and innocently begin to believe the stereotypes.

3. Those who know better and simply watch the show purely for entertainment.

Unfortunately, I think many people fall into the first group, and to a lesser degree the second group (at least here in the US)

Stereotypes hurt. It doesn't matter if the stereotypes are about African Americans, women, Jews, Muslims, Catholics, Native Americans, gays, or any other group of people. They drag people down and offer others even more reasons to continue perpetuating their prejudices.



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Offline Kelda

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Re: Jake In Drag??
« Reply #122 on: January 16, 2007, 03:52:51 pm »
I was probably somewhere in between you both in my thinking when asking the question.

If I say straight what comes out of my head right now... I just feel if we return to the point before Will & Grace and Queer Eye for The Straight Guy that that would be worse. Like pretending that Gays and Lesbians don't exist - much like when blacks didn't exist in 'tv land'. Or if they did appear, they were only playing the role of servants/slaves - for 'authenticity'.

Am I saying that a stereotype - which can slowly be 'brought round' to a more real character - is better than nothing - I don't know to be honest.

In the UK - I would think that the majority are in the no 2 who watch it and innocently begin to believe the stereotypes. category - moving towards the third Those who know better and simply watch the show purely for entertainment category. Certainly, as a whole, in comparison, the UK is more 'progressive'.

So David - you liked Jake's skit. Am I right in thinking you're fine with the drag bit, but not so fine about the cowboys in the front row?

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Offline David In Indy

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Re: Jake In Drag??
« Reply #123 on: January 16, 2007, 04:11:27 pm »
Hey Kelda!

Yes, I loved Jake's Jennifer Hudson impersonation! I also appreciated why Jake did it. I think anyone would admit it took a great amount of courage.

The gay cowboys? That was kind of bad, wasn't it? But, we must remember we're talking about SNL, and gay cowboys are to be expected.

Yes, the UK (and Western Europe) are far more progressive than the US. Hopefully someday we'll catch up to you all!  :)
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Re: Jake In Drag??
« Reply #124 on: January 16, 2007, 04:34:44 pm »
The gay cowboys? That was kind of bad, wasn't it? But, we must remember we're talking about SNL, and gay cowboys are to be expected.


They might have been bad, yes, and a cheap laugh really, but I loved the expression on their faces, especially of the cowboy on the left when he said "Nope, just regular cowboys..." Who is that guy, does anybody know?

Offline newyearsday

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Re: Jake In Drag??
« Reply #125 on: January 16, 2007, 04:52:44 pm »
I think it's good we are talking about all these things as a community. It's nice that we're doing it so civilly as Clarissa pointed out, I think.

What seems true is that we all have our opinions, like in any community, which is healthy and normal. Re: the wheelchair sketch, I loved it for the same reasons that Katherine mentioned, that it was poking fun at the stereotypers and their laughable, over-the-top attempts to cover up their narrow-minded, pigeonholeing behavior.

On the other hand, I didn't like the cast plants as gay cowboys very much in the opening monologue, mostly because they were just not that funny to me. But I still believe Jake was really trying to say something about his loyalty to the gay/brokeback fanbase with the song, as I posted about earlier on page 4 of the thread.

Personally I like both Queer Eye and Will and Grace. Sure, Jack and Carson can get tired sometimes as stereotypes go, but I often find them both funny and talented. All comedies have to have extreme characters, and so Jack is that in the show. Ninety percent of my co-workers are gay males, and though no one is exactly like Jack, a couple of people resemble his character to a degree (if they completely resembled it, they wouldn't have a job). I love working where I hear guys calling each other "bitch" in jest, and I don't find anything wrong with W&G playing up one of the more obvious segments of the gay population for its humorous shallowness and bitchiness.

Yes, it's only one side of the community, and I agree that's too bad...but then again it's also only one show. If half the shows on TV were about gay characters I think we'd find more variety portrayed. What I loved about the show was its embrace of sexuality in general and its sheer refusal to take sexual labels and morality seriously (i.e. Karen as a selfish, shallow, alcoholic omnisexual who is nevertheless married to a man she loves even though we never see him). It also addressed important themes at times, like the one where Will was dating someone who was afraid to come out and Will ended the relationship because of it.

I guess we all have our tolerance levels; some people find things funny and others do not. All of our own convictions are rooted in our personal experiences of life, and some have experienced more pain than others where stereotypes are concerned. Still others have experienced a lot of pain due to prejudices and stereotypes and have developed either a thick skin or a way to fight back. I think that many gay men like Carson have developed their scathing and catty senses of humor as a response to all the name calling they endured while growing up.

As for SNL, it's true that its heyday is long past, but since several people have wondered if the cast is new and young, I can say that three or four members are very new, two or three have a couple or three seasons under their belts, and at least five -- Amy Pohler, Maya Rudolf, Darrell Hammond, Will Forte, and Seth Meyers -- have been on the cast for between four and six years, maybe longer.

If you want to see a great SNL skit from the relatively recent past (2 plus years ago) with Jimmy Fallon and Justin Timberlake, click on the link below. I don't think you'll be disappointed, though if you don't remember the BeeGees, it will be totally lost on you:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4eglacD5ujY
 (see below for Jane's live link which is for the same sketch)

Jenny

« Last Edit: January 17, 2007, 12:52:25 am by newyearsday »
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Offline David In Indy

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Re: Jake In Drag??
« Reply #126 on: January 16, 2007, 05:52:09 pm »
Hey Jenny and Kelda!

I appreciate what you both are saying. I really do. I just wish more people had the openmindedness the two of you possess.

What if the powers that be decided to bring back "Black Face" featuring African Americans eating watermelon and fried chicken? What do you suppose would happen? There would be outrage, and rightfully so. It's an appalling, disgusting, hurtful and completely inaccurate portrayal of African Americans and Blacks.

What if they remade some of those 1950's programs of Native Americans wildly dancing around a bonfire, chugging their "fire water" as they raped the local White women and piilaged the nearby town? Again there would be outrage. Thank God.

I suppose the gay community will have to walk through the fire, just as many other minorities had to do before us. But it doesn't make it any less painful. Please forgive me if I bitch about it every once in awhile.  :)

I'll be a happier camper once the word "Fag" isn't used so casually and nonchalantly on television. They used it on "Will & Grace" all the time, along with a few other choice words.
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Offline David In Indy

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Re: Jake In Drag??
« Reply #127 on: January 16, 2007, 05:54:28 pm »
They might have been bad, yes, and a cheap laugh really, but I loved the expression on their faces, especially of the cowboy on the left when he said "Nope, just regular cowboys..." Who is that guy, does anybody know?

I have no idea who that guy is, Melissa. I wonder if one of the SNL fan sites might have some information? If I think about it, I'll take a look later for you!  :)
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Offline ednbarby

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Re: Jake In Drag??
« Reply #128 on: January 16, 2007, 05:58:24 pm »
That cowboy's name is Will Forte.  He is a regular SNL cast member.

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Offline Kelda

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Re: Jake In Drag??
« Reply #129 on: January 16, 2007, 06:13:39 pm »
Hey Jenny and Kelda!

I appreciate what you both are saying. I really do. I just wish more people had the openmindedness the two of you possess.

What if the powers that be decided to bring back "Black Face" featuring African Americans eating watermelon and fried chicken? What do you suppose would happen? There would be outrage, and rightfully so. It's an appalling, disgusting, hurtful and completely inaccurate portrayal of African Americans and Blacks.

What if they remade some of those 1950's programs of Native Americans wildly dancing around a bonfire, chugging their "fire water" as they raped the local White women and piilaged the nearby town? Again there would be outrage. Thank God.

I'll be a happier camper once the word "Fag" isn't used so casually and nonchalantly on television. They used it on "Will & Grace" all the time, along with a few other choice words.

I hate hate hate the word fag. and yes - there would be outrage - hopefully in much less itme there will be outrage at the gay stereotypes on telly.
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