Questions, hope not stoopid.....

[Cameron]

Just a couple of questons....What did the guy say at the end???

Just kidding,  reallly,

As a technical 'newbie' I feel obligated to watch at least parts while its still on HBO and I just noticed a couple of things that I have not really seen written about at all.

The first stunned me when I saw it, Jack's father has two different colored eyes. 

Pleas forgive me if that was thoroughly discussed at some point, I have not seen anything written about on in all my reading the past month.
The left eye (left looking at him)  is real light blue and other is much, much darker.  I cannot believe I didn't see it in watching over 20 times already.

I am wondering if it is really his eyes or another mysterious Ang Lee touch?

The other thing I saw was while  I had seen that you all had a big discussion on, is the bag on Ennis's bed in the trailer.  But Junior didn't come in with it and it seemed to be gone after she left and E. was alone it the trailor.

Was this another mistake, or maybe it wasn't visible at the end, did it mean Ennis had moved on maybe somehow?

Oh yeah I will throw this in here to because I hadn't read anything on it either. To me one of the saddest bookend or mirror is everytime I see it I notice that after E puts the 17 on the mailbox he stands back to look at it to make sure its okay  exactly  like he was looking at the tent that wasn't right that he put up for J.  To me that is still incredibly sad even after watching over and over and over.

Just some questions and thoughts, don't mean to bore you oldtimers though....

[Shakesthecoffecan]

Holy Retinas Batman, where is the DVD? I had not noticed John C.'s eyes, or seen them mentioned. Good call. Not sure what to make of it.

[Shakesthecoffecan]

Yeah, I believe that is just a light/shadow thing, but cropped like that he is one scary dude.

[nakymaton]

Cropped or uncropped, he's scary...

[Cameron]

Yeah,

It could be that I made my tv a brighter when I watched tonight,  (so I could better see poor Ennis's eyes during TS2)  and old man Twist's eyes just popped out at me.  It could be a lighting thing, or maybe it was just because the tv was brighter tonight, but it sure looked like they were differnent colors and yes real scary, poor Jack.

[fernly]

To me one of the saddest bookend or mirror is everytime I see it I notice that after E puts the 17 on the mailbox he stands back to look at it to make sure its okay  exactly  like he was looking at the tent that wasn't right that he put up for J.  To me that is still incredibly sad even after watching over and over and over.

Never thought about that before. You're right on both counts. Similar action. Incredibly sad. No postcard from Jack will ever arrive in that mailbox.
But at the same time, Ennis must be expecting some mail. Hopefully more than just the few bills he might be getting. But what?
Not meaning to be flippant, but it seems like a lot of trouble to go through for a Hamley's saddle catalog.
Is he looking to avoid going into town for his mail at the post office?

[Cameron]

I wonder to. I mean he if he just is putting the numbers up so he wouldn't have to go to town so why would he take such care to make the numbers look right? I would think if that was it and he didn't want to go to town then he would be really depressed but he didn't look that way when he was putting up the numbers.

I also look at the numbers as the address of the trailer, because I don't think there was any on the trailer itself, to me it was almost as if he wanted to put the numbers up so that he could be found, otherwise who would know which was his trailer?

Thats also why it is so sad, that Jack wouldn't be coming to his trailer.

Maybe there could be someone else?

[Cameron]

I looked again,

I am 99.999 % sure now that his eyes are different colors.  It is much clearer if the tv picture brightness is turned up to lighten the shadow on the side of his face, but even with the picture is normal I can see it now .  His right eye (our left) is pale, pale blue and the other is much darker.

That is why he looked so creepy and scary all along.

In fact with the tv brighter it almost looks as if he has a glass eye.

No wonder the whole scene is so surreal..

[serious crayons]

Well, I don't know whether they're two different colors. But I have always noticed the way the light glints through his right eye, almost like it's transparent, just as he begins his little speech. "Ennis Del Mar, Jack used to say. I'm gonna bring him up here one of these days, and we'll lick this damn ranch into shape ..." The glinting eye (which reminds me a little of Edgar Allen Poe's story "The Telltale Heart"), combined with his kind of loony unfocused look ... He looks scary, all right. But also, I'll have to say that -- combined with the humble quiet way he's sitting at the table in the beginning of the scene -- he looks sad. Is it saccrilege to admit that, despite all, I feel a teeny bit sorry for the guy?

[Ellemeno]

You know, I always feel like Ennis is pretty cheerful putting the numbers on the mailbox, and that he feels satisfaction when he stands back and looks at his handiwork.

Cropped or uncropped, he's scary...

Well, the story tells us he's not cropped. 

But while he was hosin me down I seen he had some extra material that I was missin. I seen they'd cut me different like you'd crop a ear or scorch a brand. No way to get it right with him after  that."   

Is it saccrilege to admit that, despite all, I feel a teeny bit sorry for the guy?

Nah, that's the thing - who isn't to be pitied in this movie?  Also, I feel like taking this opportunity to state something we've discussed before - that Mr. Twist, sitting there with Ennis, doesn't say anything homophobic.  THAT is an interesting twist to the whole kit and caboodle.

[mouk]

Oh yeah I will throw this in here to because I hadn't read anything on it either. To me one of the saddest bookend or mirror is everytime I see it I notice that after E puts the 17 on the mailbox he stands back to look at it to make sure its okay  exactly  like he was looking at the tent that wasn't right that he put up for J.  To me that is still incredibly sad even after watching over and over and over.

Oooh Marlb42 this is just FANTASTIC!! Thank you for pointing this out this similarity in behaviour, I had never noticed. I think you have just solved the mystery of the significance of number 17.

Many possible meanings have been given, one of which being that this is the number of letters of Brokeback Mountain. Now look: he has made a little shrine to Jack with the shirts and the postcard. It has been mentioned before that his comfy seat is turned towards the closet, which means that he probably often sits looking at the shirts, perhaps talking to Jack. In his mind, he is now living with Jack. After Juionr's visit he makes a vow to him, (I swea), presumably acknowledging and recognising the reality of their love.

So number 17 is THEIR address, he lives with the memory of Jack in No 17 trailer, Brokeback Mountain Trailer, a sad, sad reconstitution of their real life on the real Mountain as represented by the shirts which had actually been there, worn by Jack alive, and the photo of the real thing. And he is doing his best to put this address exactly right, just as he tried to set up the tent for Jack exatly right.

Yep, this mail box is not meant to receive any mail at all...

OMG, a few more hours    today

[Toast]

John C Twist's eyes.
When reasonalbly equally lit, the eyes are the same
however most of the time the bright light is on his right eye and his left eye is in shadow.
One pic shows the eye looking a bit to John's left and the pupils seem identical.
The other shows the glint from the sunshine.
Most of the scene has John's right eye in brilliant light and a severe glint.
 

[opinionista]

I looked again,

I am 99.999 % sure now that his eyes are different colors.  It is much clearer if the tv picture brightness is turned up to lighten the shadow on the side of his face, but even with the picture is normal I can see it now .  His right eye (our left) is pale, pale blue and the other is much darker.

That is why he looked so creepy and scary all along.

In fact with the tv brighter it almost looks as if he has a glass eye.

No wonder the whole scene is so surreal..

I saw Peter McRobbie play a judge recently on a episode of Law and Order and both his eyes looked the same color: light blue. So my guess is that the different coloring of his eyes in BBM is due to the position of the light and shadow.

[Fran]

I’ve never felt sorry for Monroe, Mr. “Shows As Much Emotion As Mashed Potatoes.”

I agree that here's no reason to feel sorry for Monroe.  He's the only character who didn't lose something; he gained a wife and a family (two stepdaughters and his own baby).  I know that Monroe has been criticized for not coming to Alma's aid in the kitchen -- how could he not have heard what was going on in that small house? -- but that's how Proulx wrote the story.  Maybe the screenwriters should have had Monroe smoking his cigar outside on the porch or taking the garbage out, to give him a better excuse for being oblivious to what was going on.  On the other hand, if we can believe that Monroe didn't hear what was going on in the kitchen, then probably neither did Alma Jr. and Jenny, a thought I rather like.

But I have sometimes pitied LaShawn for being the object of other people’s resentment, of which she is blissfully unaware.

Agreed here, too.  Lashawn is a good contrast to Lureen.  I imagine Lureen started out all bubbly and perky, too -- obviously not as extreme as Lashawn -- but ended up jaded and bored as the years passed.  I can almost imagine something similar happening to Lashawn if she stays married to Randall.

[nakymaton]

I agree that here's no reason to feel sorry for Monroe.  He's the only character who didn't lose something; he gained a wife and a family (two stepdaughters and his own baby).

I don't know. I feel sorry for Monroe. Alma's so bitter by the time she marries him, and he seems so infatuated with her. Yes, he's got stepdaughters and his own baby, but is it pleasant to have a wife who is still so bitter over her previous marriage?

None of the marriages in that generation seem like very happy matches. Ennis and Alma obviously, and Jack and Lureen. And LaShawn and Randall, though LaShawn is clueless enough that she doesn't understand. But even Monroe and Alma, who are both presumably straight, don't seem really happy.

[Fran]

I don't know. I feel sorry for Monroe. Alma's so bitter by the time she marries him, and he seems so infatuated with her. Yes, he's got stepdaughters and his own baby, but is it pleasant to have a wife who is still so bitter over her previous marriage?

Good point.  I was thinking that Alma was particularly bitter that Thanksgiving but once she got it out of her system, she was able to put her first marriage behind her and move on.  If she stayed bitter, then it would have been extremely frustrating for Monroe.  I mean, he'd be giving Alma everything he had emotionally, and it still wouldn't be enough to make her happy.  Sadly, there are people who just can't (or won't) move on.

That said, maybe Monroe should have expanded his horizons and looked outside of Riverton for a mate. 

[serious crayons]

And LaShawn and Randall, though LaShawn is clueless enough that she doesn't understand.

I'm not so sure about this. All those not-so-subtle slights to his masculinity: has no rhythm, can't fix the truck, wouldn't listen to her if he were going deaf, never will make as much money as she made at Neiman Marcus (!) add up to something. And her gabbiness seems the equivalent of Lureen's bleached hair, an outward sign of inner frustration. I think she probably understands approximately as much as Lureen does, at this point.

There is one character in the movie I don't feel the least bit sorry for -- the one whose head we never see.

[Front-Ranger]

I'm not so sure about this. All those not-so-subtle slights to his masculinity: has no rhythm, can't fix the truck, wouldn't listen to her if he were going deaf, never will make as much money as she made at Neiman Marcus (!) add up to something. And her gabbiness seems the equivalent of Lureen's bleached hair, an outward sign of inner frustration. I think she probably understands approximately as much as Lureen does, at this point.

There is one character in the movie I don't feel the least bit sorry for -- the one whose head we never see.

Are you talkin about the killer mechanic there, latjoreme??

[Lynne]

Ennis' dad is my guess.  It's hard to muster sympathy for a man who would expose his sons to such brutality.

[Ellemeno]

Ennis' dad is my guess.  It's hard to muster sympathy for a man who would expose his sons to such brutality.

Oh yeah, I bet that's who Katherine meant.  I was stumped.

Re feeling sorry for Monroe - Try readin' Mikaela's portrayal of him in the Performance Thread - it'll break yer heart. 

[serious crayons]

Ennis' dad is my guess.  It's hard to muster sympathy for a man who would expose his sons to such brutality.

Oh yeah, I bet that's who Katherine meant.  I was stumped.

Yup. I don't think there's any way to feel sorry for that guy.

I do feel sorry for Monroe, because I think in Alma's mind, he's "sloppy seconds."  (Is that the right term? I've never used it before.)

[Ellemeno]

Yup. I don't think there's any way to feel sorry for that guy.

I do feel sorry for Monroe, because I think in Alma's mind, he's "sloppy seconds."  (Is that the right term? I've never used it before.)

My understanding of the origins of this term leads me to suppose that it is not one a genteel lady would use.  Of course, how a genteel lady would even come to know this meaning...

I have heard that it refers to after a lady has had a gentleman spill his seed into her, what a second gentleman would experience immediately after with said lady.

[serious crayons]

Eeewwww .... Yikes. Well, I make no claim to be a genteel lady, but I was oblivious. I thought I'd heard it on TV, and places like that! Forget I said it. (Glad I found out here, though, rather than ... I don't know, over the dinner table at my in-laws'.)

And of course, it wouldn't apply in this case, at least in a literal sense. 

[Ellemeno]

Eeewwww .... Yikes. Well, I make no claim to be a genteel lady, but I was oblivious. I thought I'd heard it on TV, and places like that! Forget I said it. (Glad I found out here, though, rather than ... I don't know, over the dinner table at my in-laws'.)

And of course, it wouldn't apply in this case, at least in a literal sense. 

Fair lady latjoreme, I think I've also heard it on TV and the like, which has confused me.  I'm sure someone more worldly will enlighten us.

UPDATE:

From Wikipedia:
Sloppy seconds is a slang term for the practice of a man having sex with a woman immediately after another man has had sex with her, and the previous man's semen is still present inside the woman.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sloppy_seconds

[Jeff Wrangler]

From Wikipedia:
Sloppy seconds is a slang term for the practice of a man having sex with a woman immediately after another man has had sex with her, and the previous man's semen is still present inside the woman.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sloppy_seconds

I got news for Wikipedia. "Sloppy seconds" isn't just used in relation to heterosexual intercourse.

[Jeff Wrangler]

I'm not so sure about this. All those not-so-subtle slights to his masculinity: has no rhythm, can't fix the truck, wouldn't listen to her if he were going deaf, never will make as much money as she made at Neiman Marcus (!) add up to something. And her gabbiness seems the equivalent of Lureen's bleached hair, an outward sign of inner frustration. I think she probably understands approximately as much as Lureen does, at this point.

Does LaShawn say Randall will never make as much money as she made at Neiman Marcus or as much as she spent at Neiman Marcus?

A minor point, to be sure, but, with respect, I think it's the latter. She says she could have had any job she wanted in North Dallas but she took Neiman Marcus because, Honey, when it comes to clothes she's got no resistance. 

I don't think LaShawn is frustrated. I think she's just an airhead. But, in her own cheerful, oblivious, ditzy way, I love LaShawn! 

[Ellemeno]

I got news for Wikipedia. "Sloppy seconds" isn't just used in relation to heterosexual intercourse.

Noted.  Thanks Jeff.   

I don't think LaShawn is frustrated. I think she's just an airhead. But, in her own cheerful, oblivious, ditzy way, I love LaShawn! 

I respectfully disagree.  I don't think she is cheerful, oblivious, ditzy, or an airhead.  I think she is disappointed, aware that she is in a loveless marriage, aware that Lureen is slighting her (but continuing to be polite).  I think she is plenty smart enough, and coping with living in a place she doesn't want, with a person she doesn't want.  Frustrated.

Jack asking her to dance may be the best moment she's had in ages.

[Jeff Wrangler]

I wonder to. I mean he if he just is putting the numbers up so he wouldn't have to go to town so why would he take such care to make the numbers look right? I would think if that was it and he didn't want to go to town then he would be really depressed but he didn't look that way when he was putting up the numbers.

I also look at the numbers as the address of the trailer, because I don't think there was any on the trailer itself, to me it was almost as if he wanted to put the numbers up so that he could be found, otherwise who would know which was his trailer?

Thats also why it is so sad, that Jack wouldn't be coming to his trailer.

Maybe there could be someone else?

I have to admit I've never given much thought--OK, never given any thought--to the specific significance of "17," but I have thought that in general, Ennis having his very own mailbox and an actual address is an indicator that he is becoming more open and accessible to people. No more mail addressed to General Delivery, Riverton, Wyoming, and waiting at the post office for him to decide it's time he checked to see if he had any mail. Nope, his mail will be delivered right to his doorstep.

[Jeff Wrangler]

I respectfully disagree.  I don't think she is cheerful, oblivious, ditzy, or an airhead.  I think she is disappointed, aware that she is in a loveless marriage, aware that Lureen is slighting her (but continuing to be polite).  I think she is plenty smart enough, and coping with living in a place she doesn't want, with a person she doesn't want.

Jack asking her to dance may be the best moment she's had in ages.

If you're actually quoting the Wikipedia entry, I wouldn't bother. It's Wikipedia that's wrong if it limits the use of the term.

We'll have to agree to disagree about LaShawn. No offense, but I think you're reading too much into her. Actually, I tend to think her character was mainly created for a little comic relief--creation justified by Jack's lie, even in the original story, about the "ranch foreman's wife," but still mainly a little comic relief.

[Ellemeno]

We'll have to agree to disagree about LaShawn.

Okay, tell you what, think about it a little for the next day or so, and tell me if you still think I'm overanalyzing this one.  Put yourself in her place, and feel what it might be like.  I mean if you want to.  If you don't want to, okay. 

[Jeff Wrangler]

Okay, tell you what, think about it a little for the next day or so, and tell me if you still think I'm overanalyzing this one.  Put yourself in her place, and feel what it might be like.  I mean if you want to.  If you don't want to, okay. 

I apologize. I shouldn't have criticized your analysis, merely said that I disagreed with it and why.

Perhaps with the passage of time LaShawn might have turned into another Lureen, but at the time we meet her and Randall, I think she's pretty much the way I described her.

Perhaps, at least partly, anyway, I may think this because I've taken LaShawn's prattling about Randall being an animal husbandry major, and meeting him at an Aggie game, and never imagining she'd end up in a poky little place like Childress to indicate that Randall is a fairly recent college graduate, and that she and Randall have not been married very long, not as long as Jack and Lureen, and they may even be considerably younger than Jack and Lureen. But maybe there is no real basis for me to think this. On the other hand, though, do we have anything more to go on than that Randall and LaShawn appear to be close in age to Jack and Lureen?

[Cameron]

Hi,

I definitely agree, I think that everyone is  to be pitied, except maybe Monroe.

I also think that even LaShawn could be pitied.

I do agree to that at least in the film, despite his creepiness, that Father Twist is somewhat sympathetic.

I do understand in the story he is different, but from the film I think that the only thing that he is upset about with Ennis is that Ennis and Jack never did come to the ranch and 'whip it into shape', and instead he is alone with Mrs. Twist in the crumbling ranch.

In fact, Mr. Twist reaction to me brings another layer of tragedy and sadness to Ennis.  I think that Ennis never knew before that Jack talked about to his parents, and I think that another reason the trip to Lightning Flats is so devastating to Ennis is that he realized that 'the sweet life' really could have been possible, but he never knew it before.  He didn't know that they could have move together there.

But then Ennis saw that Mrs.  Twist obviously would have accepted him, and that Mr. Twist would only have been happy to have all that help with the ranch, to me it also seemed that Mr. Twist wouldn't really have cared that Jack was with a man.

That is why LF is so tragic, because not only does Ennis realize all the love between him and Jack since on the mountain, but also that the sweet life really was possible.

My only question is why didn't Jack ever invite Ennis up there for just a weekend in all those years, so that Ennis could have seen it all might have been possible...

[Ellemeno]

My only question is why didn't Jack ever invite Ennis up there for just a weekend in all those years, so that Ennis could have seen it all might have been possible...

Yup, that's been one of my queries/gripes about Jack too.  Why keep telling his father about Ennis, but then neglect to mention to Ennis that he already actually HAS a place where they could have their little cow and calf operation.  I don't get you, Jack Twist.

[Cameron]

Yup, that's been one of my queries/gripes about Jack too.  Why keep telling his father about Ennis, but then neglect to mention to Ennis that he already actually HAS a place where they could have their little cow and calf operation.  I don't get you, Jack Twist.

Me neither.

[Jeff Wrangler]

Yup, that's been one of my queries/gripes about Jack too.  Why keep telling his father about Ennis, but then neglect to mention to Ennis that he already actually HAS a place where they could have their little cow and calf operation.  I don't get you, Jack Twist.

That's logical and sensible. Yet I think on Jack, at age 19, telling Ennis he couldn't wait to get his own spread--not, I think, his old man's spread--so that he wouldn't have to put up with Joe Aguirre's crap no more.

I can't imagine why Jack would talk to his father for years on years about bringing Ennis up to Lightning Flat, because I don't think he was really serious about it. I can't help but think that even if Ennis and Jack had gone up to Lightning Flat to lick the Twist ranch into shape, nothing they did would have been right to the old man--couldn't please that old man no how.

Funny thing, though. I take some comfort in believing Jack was just talking to his father and wasn't really serious--because I don't think he was any more serious when, shortly before he died, he talked about bringing his ranch neighbor from Texas up to Lightning Flat.

In both cases I think Jack was just thinkin' out loud.

[Ellemeno]

Jeff, I sure love how well you speak Brokeback.

[Jeff Wrangler]

Jeff, I sure love how well you speak Brokeback.

Takes a lot of practice, Little Darlin'! 

[ednbarby]

Marlb, you have some keen observational skills.  Really!

It always hits me how Ennis stands back to look at his handiwork on the mailbox just as he stood back to look at the tent, too.  That "Desperado" tribute on youtube that some kind soul posted here recently nails it.  There ain't nothing happy about that scene - "Freedom - well, that's just some people talkin'.  Your prison is walking through this world all alone."  That scene strikes me, too, as Ennis' attempt to make light, just for a moment, an awful situation.  Whistling in the dark, as it were.  It breaks my heart.

I think Jack would have mentioned he was talking about Lightning Flat to Ennis that night after their reunion if Ennis had not confided in him what he did.  And I agree with Jeff that from that point on, whenever Jack mentioned him to his father, he was just 'thinkin' out loud.'  Floating a trial balloon, as my father always says about one of my brothers.  I think Jack wanted his Dad to know he was worthy of the respect (and love?) of someone like Ennis - the respect and love he never got from him.  Of course what Ennis' Dad did was the most catastrophically damaging thing imaginable.  But making your son feel like he didn't deserve your love his whole life is right up there, too.

[Cameron]

Thanks Edna  

Your so kind  

I tried to watch the video, but I only have dial up so I wasn't able to see it, it never loaded.   Now I have to find a way, I always loved that song.

Anyway I don't know, you all have good points.  It is just that to me if Jack could be telling his father about Ennis, it could not have been such a big deal to just go up for the weekend.  And maybe if he approached it the right way Ennis would have gone.

I know I take a very Ennis point of view, but I think part of the whole problem with the relationship is that Jack was always pushing Ennis for big steps, moving, leaving Alma and the girl, the post divorce meeting etc. that Ennis never could be able to do.  I think Ennis could have done smaller things, like just going up for the weekend to LF, it just seems to me that should have realized that Ennis could simply not abandon his whole life, but maybe things could have worked out if it hand been done it the right way.

[ednbarby]

That's an excellent point, Marlb.  I think Jack just wasn't a baby steps kind of a guy.  He always dreamed big, and that in a way was his curse.  Central to the tragedy of their story, I think, is how they were always misunderstanding each other.  Ennis misunderstood Jack's nonchalance at leaving the mountain as not really caring about him, when actually Jack was so nonchalant because he didn't see it as the end to their relationship like Ennis did.  Ennis punched him out of his frustration with him for that, and then Jack misunderstood it as Ennis resenting him, perhaps for starting the relationship in the first place.  And it just snowballed from there.  They never truly communicated their feelings for each other to each other (even to themselves).  And it makes perfect sense that they didn't, unfortunately.  Straight men can barely talk to straight women about anything really intimate.  Put two men together who can't even come to terms with their own sexuality (Jack had less difficulty with it than Ennis, of course) and naturally there are going to be communication (or lack thereof) issues.

That's part of what makes this movie so perfect.  People misunderstand each other in real life.  Constantly.  And it usually leads to the unraveling of their relationships, if they're ever able to get a relationship off the ground in the first place.  Long-term relationships of any kind are just plain hard work.  Of course they're worth it when you love each other.  But when you can't even express that to one another, you're already on pretty shaky ground.

[Scott6373]

That's an excellent point, Marlb.  I think Jack just wasn't a baby steps kind of a guy.  He always dreamed big, and that in a way was his curse.  Central to the tragedy of their story, I think, is how they were always misunderstanding each other.  Ennis misunderstood Jack's nonchalance at leaving the mountain as not really caring about him, when actually Jack was so nonchalant because he didn't see it as the end to their relationship like Ennis did.  Ennis punched him out of his frustration with him for that, and then Jack misunderstood it as Ennis resenting him, perhaps for starting the relationship in the first place.  And it just snowballed from there.  They never truly communicated their feelings for each other to each other (even to themselves).  And it makes perfect sense that they didn't, unfortunately.  Straight men can barely talk to straight women about anything really intimate.  Put two men together who can't even come to terms with their own sexuality (Jack had less difficulty with it than Ennis, of course) and naturally there are going to be communication (or lack thereof) issues.

That's part of what makes this movie so perfect.  People misunderstand each other in real life.  Constantly.  And it usually leads to the unraveling of their relationships, if they're ever able to get a relationship off the ground in the first place.  Long-term relationships of any kind are just plain hard work.  Of course they're worth it when you love each other.  But when you can't even express that to one another, you're already on pretty shaky ground.

Ok I have to quote your entire post.  I agree with everything you wrote...that being said...we're they really such a good match?  We're they really star-crossed lovers...could they have had a "sweet life".  When you get down to it, Ennis was so repressed and Jack was more than a little on the uncompassionate (if not selfish) side.  Could it have worked?

[Cameron]

Ok I have to quote your entire post.  I agree with everything you wrote...that being said...we're they really such a good match?  We're they really star-crossed lovers...could they have had a "sweet life".  When you get down to it, Ennis was so repressed and Jack was more than a little on the uncompassionate (if not selfish) side.  Could it have worked?

Hi Scott

You know that I have been wondering about since I first saw BBM too.   If they had been together, really together would they really have had the sweet life orwould realities have gotten in the way?.  I tend to think that with their opposing personalities and little problems in day to day life would have taken its toll and it would not have 'been like this, always'.

  But that is also what makes everything so damn sad, Jack and Ennis spend their whole lives yearning for the sweet life, but maybe somehow that one would never have happened, and somehow they did in fact hve the 'real sweet life', because they never did have to deal with the real day to day problems all along....

[Scott6373]

Hi Scott


You know that I have been wondering about since I first saw BBM too.   If they had been together, really together would they really have had the sweet life orwould realities have gotten in the wa?.  I tend to think that at their opposing personalities and little problems in day to day life would have taken its toll and it would not have 'been like this, always'.

  But that is also what makes everything so damn sad, Jack and Ennis spend their whole lives yearning for the sweet life, but maybe somehow that one would never have happened, and somehow they did in fact the 'real sweet life', because they never did have to deal with the real day to day problems all along....

I've never thought about it that way, but perhaps your are correct in your assumption that the life they had built was their "sweet life".  I can tell you from experience, that being out in the early 80's was not a fun thing.  It was dangerous and hard.  I'm not sure that either one, with their limited education and their limited life experience could have made a life together work...especially in rural Wyoming...I just don't think it would have worked.

[opinionista]

That's an excellent point, Marlb.  I think Jack just wasn't a baby steps kind of a guy.  He always dreamed big, and that in a way was his curse.  Central to the tragedy of their story, I think, is how they were always misunderstanding each other.  Ennis misunderstood Jack's nonchalance at leaving the mountain as not really caring about him, when actually Jack was so nonchalant because he didn't see it as the end to their relationship like Ennis did.  Ennis punched him out of his frustration with him for that, and then Jack misunderstood it as Ennis resenting him, perhaps for starting the relationship in the first place.  And it just snowballed from there.  They never truly communicated their feelings for each other to each other (even to themselves).  And it makes perfect sense that they didn't, unfortunately.  Straight men can barely talk to straight women about anything really intimate.  Put two men together who can't even come to terms with their own sexuality (Jack had less difficulty with it than Ennis, of course) and naturally there are going to be communication (or lack thereof) issues.

That's part of what makes this movie so perfect.  People misunderstand each other in real life.  Constantly.  And it usually leads to the unraveling of their relationships, if they're ever able to get a relationship off the ground in the first place.  Long-term relationships of any kind are just plain hard work.  Of course they're worth it when you love each other.  But when you can't even express that to one another, you're already on pretty shaky ground.

I always thought the punch was a way for them to ease the pain they felt at the idea of separating upon leaving the mountain. It seems like Ennis punched Jack for no apparent reason but IMO Jack somehow provoked him. They were forced to leave each other, and no matter what illusions they had, they knew they could not be together. Even Jack knew there was a big chance they would not see each other again. And Ennis knew it better than him, hence the punch. IMO he wanted Jack to be mad at him, and he wanted to hate Jack, so the inevitable separation would not be so painful.

[injest]

Yeah, I believe that is just a light/shadow thing, but cropped like that he is one scary dude.

ya'll need to not be so hard on poor ol Mr. Twist!!

[Front-Ranger]

I got news for Wikipedia. "Sloppy seconds" isn't just used in relation to heterosexual intercourse.

Eating Out 2: Sloppy Seconds starts tomorrow! It's billed as the first gay sequel. Shall I see it?

http://denverfilm.org/scheduledetail.cfm?MOVIEID=10998695

[Jeff Wrangler]

Eating Out 2: Sloppy Seconds starts tomorrow! It's billed as the first gay sequel. Shall I see it?

http://denverfilm.org/scheduledetail.cfm?MOVIEID=10998695

Did you see the first one? Was it worth it? I'd base my decision on that, if I were you.