Timeline discovery

[Cameron]

Hi everyone,

I think I just noticed something that answers the question of how long between TS1 and TS2.  I am still watching at least parts (especially this part)  every single day (when does this stop?) and this just just hit me.  I also have some totally new to me conclusions about TS 1 and Ennis in general due to finally being able to watch TS 1 carefully and also reading some of your old amazing threads (I so wish I was here sooner ) but I will save that for now.

Anyway for the time line.

The sequence is  1 . Ennis packing, see you for supper.
2. Ennis riding the ridge, then galloping to the sheep.
3. Ennis finding the dead sheep
4  Jack washing clothes
5. Animal in background.
6. Sheep in background, tail talisman in foreground.
7. Jack reclining on mountain, Ennis approaching, "I ain't queer' conversation.

What I realized is that 3 and 4 are in daylight, Jack washing has very dark shadows (afternoon ?) but then  in 5 with the animal in the background, the sky and mountains are  very dark. Then in 6 the sheep has a daylight blue sky with bright white clouds, the in 7 (Jack on mountain) the sky is darkening again.

I really think the animal in background dark scene is too show that that is the evening, and the sheep next with the light sky is the next day, meaning Ennis spent the night on the mountain!!!!!

I also am convinced that the animal is not a coyote, but one of the dogs keeping watch over Ennis as he is sleeping on the mountain.  I had thought it was a coyote but when I noticed the sky I think that is the significance of that weird scene. 

I had thought the tail was the coyote's but now I also think it was the dead sheep that Ennis put up on the stake as some sort of offering.  I don't think Ennis killed another coyote at all anymore.

I really think the sequence of light sky (Jack washing), dark sky (dog) , light sky (sheep) , dark sky (Jack and Ennis, 'I ain't queer'..) proves to me that Ennis stayed out on the mountain without ever going back for supper the evening after TS 1, and it is only on the afternoon of the second day that Jack, not being able to wait any longer ( and to see if Ennis is even still okay) goes up to the mountain.  Then they go back down to camp and to TS 2 which is two nights after TS1.

I could be wrong, but I know it was discussed a couple of days ago, so I couldn't help but share......

[moremojo]

I really think the animal in background dark scene is too show that that is the evening, and the sheep next with the light sky is the next day, meaning Ennis spent the night on the mountain!!!!!

This opinion is completely new to me. I had always assumed that the second tent scene was one evening after the first one. If we were meant to infer that Ennis spent one night on the mountain without returning for supper, this was conveyed in so subtle a way that I wonder if anyone could possibly have caught it on an initial viewing (or more, for that matter, as I've seen the film at least six times, and have never before considered this).

Certainly, Jack going up to see Ennis with the sheep is a sign that he is anxious and craves some resolution with Ennis more quickly than Ennis would otherwise have delivered. I can only imagine Jack's sickness of heart if Ennis had abandoned him, so to speak, for that one night away!

[Cameron]

Yeah, I don't think it could be possible to get it with one or two viewings at all, but I have been thinking about it because it didn't really make sense for a number of reasons that all of this was one day.

The animal shot really bothered me, but then I finally noticed the dark sky and the next shot, light, and the next shot dark I am convinced of this.

It makes sense emotionally, Ennis was so confused and with so many emotions in his mind, that even though he didn't even bring the bedroll and the pup tent (not on his horse when leaving after TS 1) it makes sense that he would stay on the mountain, not able and not ready to face Jack.

And yes, it makes sense after two days of wondering and waiting Jack just had to go and find  Ennis.......

[mouk]

VERY interesting - this dog seems to be waiting on full alert, perhaps in tune with Ennis waiting for coyotes to shoot and pass his rage on (I really think he shot 2, because he is so angry with himself and with them), and/or representing the mood of Jack waiting anxiously back at the camp.

You say that the shadows indicate that Jack washes the shirts in the afternoon - good observation. He is washing Ennis's SNIT shirt which could have never have dried fast enough for SNIT to be on that same night. So you must be right. Wow!

[nakymaton]

Hey marlb42 - that timeline makes a lot of sense, both in terms of details and emotionally. Nice observations!

[Penthesilea]

The sequence is  1 . Ennis packing, see you for supper.
2. Ennis riding the ridge, then galloping to the sheep.
3. Ennis finding the dead sheep
4  Jack washing clothes
5. Animal in background.
6. Sheep in background, tail talisman in foreground.
7. Jack reclining on mountain, Ennis approaching, "I ain't queer' conversation.

What I realized is that 3 and 4 are in daylight, Jack washing has very dark shadows (afternoon ?) but then  in 5 with the animal in the background, the sky and mountains are  very dark. Then in 6 the sheep has a daylight blue sky with bright white clouds, the in 7 (Jack on mountain) the sky is darkening again.

I really think the animal in background dark scene is too show that that is the evening, and the sheep next with the light sky is the next day, meaning Ennis spent the night on the mountain!!!!!

I also am convinced that the animal is not a coyote, but one of the dogs keeping watch over Ennis as he is sleeping on the mountain.  I had thought it was a coyote but when I noticed the sky I think that is the significance of that weird scene. 

I had thought the tail was the coyote's but now I also think it was the dead sheep that Ennis put up on the stake as some sort of offering.  I don't think Ennis killed another coyote at all anymore.

I really think the sequence of light sky (Jack washing), dark sky (dog) , light sky (sheep) , dark sky (Jack and Ennis, 'I ain't queer'..) proves to me that Ennis stayed out on the mountain without ever going back for supper the evening after TS 1, and it is only on the afternoon of the second day that Jack, not being able to wait any longer ( and to see if Ennis is even still okay) goes up to the mountain.  Then they go back down to camp and to TS 2 which is two nights after TS1.

I could be wrong, but I know it was discussed a couple of days ago, so I couldn't help but share......

Wow, you are very observant; I've never noticed 5.Animal in the background. You're right about it, it's one of the Blue heelers.

But for the timeline... I see it different from #4 on:

4. Jack washing clothes:
it's not afternoon. It's broad daylight because Jack's shadaow is very short. It must have been around noon (maybe 11am or 1pm). Look also at the shadow of the bridge: it's almost under the bridge itself. The sun must be very high at the sky, almost upright above the bridge.
Time enough for Ennis's shirt to dry till the evening.



5. Animal in the background:
as already said, it's a Blue Heeler. And it's afternoon. It seems to be a bit more dark in this pic than in the next. But this is how the light can be in the mountains. The hills in the background are not as high as where the dog + camera are, they lay deeper and therefore appear darker.



6. Sheep in background, tail talisman in foreground.
The animal on the stake is a coyote, not a sheep. There is a second item at the right site of the stake, where the dangling first one (=coyote) ends. I dont know what the second item is, could be another coyote, but I'm not sure.
Light/time of the day: afternoon, darker surroundings than at bright day, but sky still blue.



7. "I ain't queer' conversation:
Still (late) afternoon. At this screencap it appears darker than in the movie.



8. Ennis at the fire; full darkness


So, the timeline could as good be in just one day: "see you for supper", riding along the ridge and finding dead sheep in the late morning --> Jack doing laundry around noon --> animal in the background and dead coyote on stake in the afternoon (Ennis hunted and killed the coyote while Jack was doing the laundry) --> Jack rides up to Ennis and the "ain't queer" conversation in late afternoon --> they ride down to the camp (together? I think so) --> Jack's prepares supper while Ennis changes clothes (and probably warshs up himself) --> they eat supper --> Jack goes in tent

It has been said before(not by me, can't take credit for it), but I'd like to repeat it here because it fits so well: I think it was a quiet supper that evening.

[Ellemeno]

What Penthesilea said.  Except I think that in that coyote flag picture, it's just the skin of one coyote we see hanging upside down.

So I see it as happening all in one day, but welcome different insights.  My mind has been changed more than once on these boards by listening to others here.

[Cameron]

Penthesilea

Wow, I cannot believe that you went to all that trouble to prove wrong

I am still convinced though it is two days, because to me the sheep sky is still much much lighter that the coyote/dog shy.

And if it is a coyote that Ennis killed and butchered, it also seems like a lot to do in one afternoon so another day still makes sense if me even if that was the case.  (Although I still think it may have been the dog)

Besides I don't see how Jack's clothes could have dried in just a couple of hours.  I had worked as a, well basically a nanny, in the Catskill mountains in NY, and I hung clothes outside to dry, and I am sure it took more that an hour or two.

And anyway, it makes more sense to me, and I can imagine that Ennis spent two days and a whole night by himself up on the mountain, trying to understand and deal with what happened, trying to figure out what should happen next, and what he should say to Jack.

I want to imagine that Ennis spend  the night on the mountain, brooding and confused, till Jack made his way up........

Great work with the pictures.

[serious crayons]

I want to imagine that Ennis spend  the night on the mountain, brooding and confused, till Jack made his way up........

That's a good way to put it, marlb42. I'm more in the one-day camp, maybe because I like that scenario better.

The one-day timeline makes sense to me from an emotional and dramatic standpoint. Ennis spends the day mulling things over, then by late afternoon (when Jack shows up) he has come to a decision: he'll go for it, as long as there are some groundrules.

Also, I think if we were meant to think two days had passed, the film would have contained a stronger signal (such as Jack and/or Ennis sitting by their respective campfires alone that night). As for the changing light, perhaps that could be caused by rapidly changing mountain weather and cloud formations?

[nakymaton]

And if it is a coyote that Ennis killed and butchered, it also seems like a lot to do in one afternoon so another day still makes sense if me even if that was the case.  (Although I still think it may have been the dog)

It looks like a coyote tail. Coyote's have bushy tails; blue heelers have skinny blackish tails.

Besides I don't see how Jack's clothes could have dried in just a couple of hours.  I had worked as a, well basically a nanny, in the Catskill mountains in NY, and I hung clothes outside to dry, and I am sure it took more that an hour or two.

It's a lot drier in Wyoming than in the Catskills. It's amazing how fast clothes can dry when there's no humidity.

However, how fast clothes dry depends on the temperature, too, and it's cloudy a lot during that day. And jeans take longer to dry than anything.

But I'm still in the "it makes more sense emotionally if there were more than one day between TS1 and TS2" camp. The one-day emotional arc just doesn't ring true to me.