Author Topic: Timeline discovery  (Read 11666 times)

Offline Cameron

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,747
Timeline discovery
« on: January 22, 2007, 06:06:27 pm »
Hi everyone,

I think I just noticed something that answers the question of how long between TS1 and TS2.  I am still watching at least parts (especially this part)  every single day (when does this stop?) and this just just hit me.  I also have some totally new to me conclusions about TS 1 and Ennis in general due to finally being able to watch TS 1 carefully and also reading some of your old amazing threads (I so wish I was here sooner :( :( :() but I will save that for now.

Anyway for the time line.

The sequence is  1 . Ennis packing, see you for supper.
2. Ennis riding the ridge, then galloping to the sheep.
3. Ennis finding the dead sheep
4  Jack washing clothes
5. Animal in background.
6. Sheep in background, tail talisman in foreground.
7. Jack reclining on mountain, Ennis approaching, "I ain't queer' conversation.

What I realized is that 3 and 4 are in daylight, Jack washing has very dark shadows (afternoon ?) but then  in 5 with the animal in the background, the sky and mountains are  very dark. Then in 6 the sheep has a daylight blue sky with bright white clouds, the in 7 (Jack on mountain) the sky is darkening again.

I really think the animal in background dark scene is too show that that is the evening, and the sheep next with the light sky is the next day, meaning Ennis spent the night on the mountain!!!!!

I also am convinced that the animal is not a coyote, but one of the dogs keeping watch over Ennis as he is sleeping on the mountain.  I had thought it was a coyote but when I noticed the sky I think that is the significance of that weird scene. 

I had thought the tail was the coyote's but now I also think it was the dead sheep that Ennis put up on the stake as some sort of offering.  I don't think Ennis killed another coyote at all anymore.

I really think the sequence of light sky (Jack washing), dark sky (dog) , light sky (sheep) , dark sky (Jack and Ennis, 'I ain't queer'..) proves to me that Ennis stayed out on the mountain without ever going back for supper the evening after TS 1, and it is only on the afternoon of the second day that Jack, not being able to wait any longer ( and to see if Ennis is even still okay) goes up to the mountain.  Then they go back down to camp and to TS 2 which is two nights after TS1.

I could be wrong, but I know it was discussed a couple of days ago, so I couldn't help but share......
« Last Edit: January 22, 2007, 06:12:19 pm by marlb42 »



moremojo

  • Guest
Re: Timeline discovery
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2007, 06:19:21 pm »
I really think the animal in background dark scene is too show that that is the evening, and the sheep next with the light sky is the next day, meaning Ennis spent the night on the mountain!!!!!
This opinion is completely new to me. I had always assumed that the second tent scene was one evening after the first one. If we were meant to infer that Ennis spent one night on the mountain without returning for supper, this was conveyed in so subtle a way that I wonder if anyone could possibly have caught it on an initial viewing (or more, for that matter, as I've seen the film at least six times, and have never before considered this).

Certainly, Jack going up to see Ennis with the sheep is a sign that he is anxious and craves some resolution with Ennis more quickly than Ennis would otherwise have delivered. I can only imagine Jack's sickness of heart if Ennis had abandoned him, so to speak, for that one night away!

Offline Cameron

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,747
Re: Timeline discovery
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2007, 06:28:27 pm »
Yeah, I don't think it could be possible to get it with one or two viewings at all, but I have been thinking about it because it didn't really make sense for a number of reasons that all of this was one day.

The animal shot really bothered me, but then I finally noticed the dark sky and the next shot, light, and the next shot dark I am convinced of this.

It makes sense emotionally, Ennis was so confused and with so many emotions in his mind, that even though he didn't even bring the bedroll and the pup tent (not on his horse when leaving after TS 1) it makes sense that he would stay on the mountain, not able and not ready to face Jack.

And yes, it makes sense after two days of wondering and waiting Jack just had to go and find  Ennis.......



Offline mouk

  • Brokeback Mountain Resident
  • ****
  • Posts: 241
Re: Timeline discovery
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2007, 07:43:24 pm »
VERY interesting - this dog seems to be waiting on full alert, perhaps in tune with Ennis waiting for coyotes to shoot and pass his rage on (I really think he shot 2, because he is so angry with himself and with them), and/or representing the mood of Jack waiting anxiously back at the camp.

You say that the shadows indicate that Jack washes the shirts in the afternoon - good observation. He is washing Ennis's SNIT shirt which could have never have dried fast enough for SNIT to be on that same night. So you must be right. Wow!

Offline nakymaton

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,045
  • aka Mel
Re: Timeline discovery
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2007, 10:58:35 pm »
Hey marlb42 - that timeline makes a lot of sense, both in terms of details and emotionally. Nice observations!
Watch out. That poster has a low startle point.

Offline Penthesilea

  • Town Administration
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 14,745
Re: Timeline discovery
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2007, 08:37:15 am »

The sequence is  1 . Ennis packing, see you for supper.
2. Ennis riding the ridge, then galloping to the sheep.
3. Ennis finding the dead sheep
4  Jack washing clothes
5. Animal in background.
6. Sheep in background, tail talisman in foreground.
7. Jack reclining on mountain, Ennis approaching, "I ain't queer' conversation.

What I realized is that 3 and 4 are in daylight, Jack washing has very dark shadows (afternoon ?) but then  in 5 with the animal in the background, the sky and mountains are  very dark. Then in 6 the sheep has a daylight blue sky with bright white clouds, the in 7 (Jack on mountain) the sky is darkening again.

I really think the animal in background dark scene is too show that that is the evening, and the sheep next with the light sky is the next day, meaning Ennis spent the night on the mountain!!!!!

I also am convinced that the animal is not a coyote, but one of the dogs keeping watch over Ennis as he is sleeping on the mountain.  I had thought it was a coyote but when I noticed the sky I think that is the significance of that weird scene. 

I had thought the tail was the coyote's but now I also think it was the dead sheep that Ennis put up on the stake as some sort of offering.  I don't think Ennis killed another coyote at all anymore.

I really think the sequence of light sky (Jack washing), dark sky (dog) , light sky (sheep) , dark sky (Jack and Ennis, 'I ain't queer'..) proves to me that Ennis stayed out on the mountain without ever going back for supper the evening after TS 1, and it is only on the afternoon of the second day that Jack, not being able to wait any longer ( and to see if Ennis is even still okay) goes up to the mountain.  Then they go back down to camp and to TS 2 which is two nights after TS1.

I could be wrong, but I know it was discussed a couple of days ago, so I couldn't help but share......

Wow, you are very observant; I've never noticed 5.Animal in the background. You're right about it, it's one of the Blue heelers.

But for the timeline... I see it different from #4 on:

4. Jack washing clothes:
it's not afternoon. It's broad daylight because Jack's shadaow is very short. It must have been around noon (maybe 11am or 1pm). Look also at the shadow of the bridge: it's almost under the bridge itself. The sun must be very high at the sky, almost upright above the bridge.
Time enough for Ennis's shirt to dry till the evening.



5. Animal in the background:
as already said, it's a Blue Heeler. And it's afternoon. It seems to be a bit more dark in this pic than in the next. But this is how the light can be in the mountains. The hills in the background are not as high as where the dog + camera are, they lay deeper and therefore appear darker.



6. Sheep in background, tail talisman in foreground.
The animal on the stake is a coyote, not a sheep. There is a second item at the right site of the stake, where the dangling first one (=coyote) ends. I dont know what the second item is, could be another coyote, but I'm not sure.
Light/time of the day: afternoon, darker surroundings than at bright day, but sky still blue.



7. "I ain't queer' conversation:
Still (late) afternoon. At this screencap it appears darker than in the movie.



8. Ennis at the fire; full darkness


So, the timeline could as good be in just one day: "see you for supper", riding along the ridge and finding dead sheep in the late morning --> Jack doing laundry around noon --> animal in the background and dead coyote on stake in the afternoon (Ennis hunted and killed the coyote while Jack was doing the laundry) --> Jack rides up to Ennis and the "ain't queer" conversation in late afternoon --> they ride down to the camp (together? I think so) --> Jack's prepares supper while Ennis changes clothes (and probably warshs up himself) --> they eat supper --> Jack goes in tent

It has been said before(not by me, can't take credit for it), but I'd like to repeat it here because it fits so well: I think it was a quiet supper that evening.

Offline Ellemeno

  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • ********
  • Posts: 15,367
Re: Timeline discovery
« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2007, 12:52:15 pm »
What Penthesilea said.  Except I think that in that coyote flag picture, it's just the skin of one coyote we see hanging upside down.

So I see it as happening all in one day, but welcome different insights.  My mind has been changed more than once on these boards by listening to others here.

Offline Cameron

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,747
Re: Timeline discovery
« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2007, 05:24:44 pm »
Penthesilea

Wow, I cannot believe that you went to all that trouble to prove wrong ;D ;D ;D

I am still convinced though it is two days, because to me the sheep sky is still much much lighter that the coyote/dog shy.

And if it is a coyote that Ennis killed and butchered, it also seems like a lot to do in one afternoon so another day still makes sense if me even if that was the case.  (Although I still think it may have been the dog)

Besides I don't see how Jack's clothes could have dried in just a couple of hours.  I had worked as a, well basically a nanny, in the Catskill mountains in NY, and I hung clothes outside to dry, and I am sure it took more that an hour or two.

And anyway, it makes more sense to me, and I can imagine that Ennis spent two days and a whole night by himself up on the mountain, trying to understand and deal with what happened, trying to figure out what should happen next, and what he should say to Jack.

I want to imagine that Ennis spend  the night on the mountain, brooding and confused, till Jack made his way up........

Great work with the pictures. ;)



Offline serious crayons

  • Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,712
Re: Timeline discovery
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2007, 06:01:14 pm »
I want to imagine that Ennis spend  the night on the mountain, brooding and confused, till Jack made his way up........

That's a good way to put it, marlb42. I'm more in the one-day camp, maybe because I like that scenario better.

The one-day timeline makes sense to me from an emotional and dramatic standpoint. Ennis spends the day mulling things over, then by late afternoon (when Jack shows up) he has come to a decision: he'll go for it, as long as there are some groundrules.

Also, I think if we were meant to think two days had passed, the film would have contained a stronger signal (such as Jack and/or Ennis sitting by their respective campfires alone that night). As for the changing light, perhaps that could be caused by rapidly changing mountain weather and cloud formations?

Offline nakymaton

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,045
  • aka Mel
Re: Timeline discovery
« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2007, 06:07:00 pm »
And if it is a coyote that Ennis killed and butchered, it also seems like a lot to do in one afternoon so another day still makes sense if me even if that was the case.  (Although I still think it may have been the dog)

It looks like a coyote tail. Coyote's have bushy tails; blue heelers have skinny blackish tails.

Quote
Besides I don't see how Jack's clothes could have dried in just a couple of hours.  I had worked as a, well basically a nanny, in the Catskill mountains in NY, and I hung clothes outside to dry, and I am sure it took more that an hour or two.

It's a lot drier in Wyoming than in the Catskills. It's amazing how fast clothes can dry when there's no humidity.

However, how fast clothes dry depends on the temperature, too, and it's cloudy a lot during that day. And jeans take longer to dry than anything.

But I'm still in the "it makes more sense emotionally if there were more than one day between TS1 and TS2" camp. The one-day emotional arc just doesn't ring true to me.
Watch out. That poster has a low startle point.

Offline Penthesilea

  • Town Administration
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 14,745
Re: Timeline discovery
« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2007, 06:16:23 pm »
Penthesilea

Wow, I cannot believe that you went to all that trouble to prove wrong ;D ;D ;D

You're welcome  ;)

Quote
I am still convinced though it is two days, because to me the sheep sky is still much much lighter that the coyote/dog shy.

No problem here. My point was that it was possible to happen all in one day from the timeline. But it could also have been over two days. I don't claim to have any final answers, just my opinion (that is was in one day).


Quote
And if it is a coyote that Ennis killed and butchered, it also seems like a lot to do in one afternoon so another day still makes sense if me even if that was the case.  (Although I still think it may have been the dog)

I think five or six hours from late fore-noon to afternoon are time enough to kill and butcher a coyote. But anyway.
I don't understand the bolded sentence. What may have been the dog? Do you think that Ennis killed a dog? Or one of the dogs killed a coyote?  ??


Quote
Besides I don't see how Jack's clothes could have dried in just a couple of hours.  I had worked as a, well basically a nanny, in the Catskill mountains in NY, and I hung clothes outside to dry, and I am sure it took more that an hour or two.

Again: if Jack washes the clothes around noon (the short shadows), there's plenty of time for drying till evening. Maybe six or seven hours?

Quote
And anyway, it makes more sense to me, and I can imagine that Ennis spent two days and a whole night by himself up on the mountain, trying to understand and deal with what happened, trying to figure out what should happen next, and what he should say to Jack.

I want to imagine that Ennis spend  the night on the mountain, brooding and confused, till Jack made his way up........

I think the same about Ennis (confused, brooding, trying to figure out), just not that is was in two days.
And I think Jack would not have been able to stand it that long. I think he even couldn't stand the uncertainness for one day. He couldn't wait for Ennis to come back for supper (and maybe doubted that Ennis would come back this evening, maybe he feared that Ennis would just do what you think he did: stay up with the sheep for the night).

Quote
Great work with the pictures. ;)

Thanks.

moremojo

  • Guest
Re: Timeline discovery
« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2007, 07:12:35 pm »
I'm more in the one-day camp, maybe because I like that scenario better.
Me too, and one reason may be that it hurts my heart to think of the boys' physical intimacy on Brokeback being even more curtailed than I had already imagined.

Offline Cameron

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,747
Re: Timeline discovery
« Reply #12 on: January 23, 2007, 08:32:14 pm »

I think five or six hours from late fore-noon to afternoon are time enough to kill and butcher a coyote. But anyway.
I don't understand the bolded sentence. What may have been the dog? Do you think that Ennis killed a dog? Or one of the dogs killed a coyote?  ??


Hello again,

I didn't mean to bold that sentence about the dog, it was a mistake.  And no I certainly don't think that Ennis or a coyote killed the dog.  i was thinking that that it was a dog, showing him watching over Ennis resting on the mountain, and maybe no other animal was killed at all, that the tail was just the dead sheep's tail.

I had always assumed too that it was the coyote too, but still back to my original point, isn't the sky lighter with the sheep? That gave me my whole theory about the two day thing, and that maybe it was just a shot of one of the dogs watching Ennis and not a coyote at all.

I certainly understand your points about all of it,  but again I was hoping and looking for proof that it was a two day sequence.
But it certainly makes sense that Jack certainly would not wait two days and would go up the mountain that evening.

But what also started to make me sure it was two days is that I have just focused on TS 1 and which I hadn't really before, and I just realized how much of an active participant Ennis was, I didn't realize that before.

At first I was thinking that Ennis was just wondering when he left how he let himself go along with Jack and TS 1.
But then I realized how much Ennis just didn't just go along,  I finally saw how once Jack got it started Ennis really took the lead in many ways.

Realizing that  made me think that Ennis was far more confused and well I am not sure how to put this exactly but totally surprised and almost disbelieving of his own actions and passion I guess.   Thats why the two day theory makes a lot of sense to me.  He almost couldn't face Jack because he was so confused and surprised by himself, and he really needed to think about it before he could bring himself to even think of facing Jack again, so he stayed up on the mountain all night.

I hope I am making some sense, I know many of you have discussed this all before but I am still seeing new things and trying to figure it all out.



Offline Ellemeno

  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • ********
  • Posts: 15,367
Re: Timeline discovery
« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2007, 04:22:21 pm »

And if it is a coyote that Ennis killed and butchered, it also seems like a lot to do in one afternoon so another day still makes sense if me even if that was the case.  (Although I still think it may have been the dog)

Besides I don't see how Jack's clothes could have dried in just a couple of hours.  I had worked as a, well basically a nanny, in the Catskill mountains in NY, and I hung clothes outside to dry, and I am sure it took more that an hour or two.


Hi Y'all, this is gross, but I can tell you from rustic living experience in my early 20s, that skinning should be done right after killing.  Granted my experience wasn't with coyotes.  We had 'em on the land, but didn't kill them.

I can picture Jack putting on not-quite-dry clothes.

Jack waited four effen' years soon after this happened - he could have waited more than one day to go see Ennis up on the mountain - but I don't think he did.


Offline Katie77

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 7,998
  • Love is a force of Nature
Re: Timeline discovery
« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2007, 07:23:33 pm »
Until I read this thread, I didnt realize that the scene with the "I aint queer" conversation, was actually up on the mountain with the sheep, and that obviously Jack had gone up there to see Ennis after TS1......I had always thought, that it was Ennis returning to camp that night, and walking up to Jack, who was waiting for him....

On viewing the scene again, I can see the sheep, and where the boys are, and it certainly adds another dimension to what was going on in their heads after TS1....Jack obviously needed to get into Ennis' face and confront their feelings or before the feelings might get lost and replaced with anger or embarrassment.
Being happy doesn't mean everything is perfect.

It means you've decided to see beyond the imperfection

Offline Kelda

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 14,703
  • Zorbing....
    • Keldas Facebook Page!
Re: Timeline discovery
« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2007, 05:19:08 am »
Until I read this thread, I didnt realize that the scene with the "I aint queer" conversation, was actually up on the mountain with the sheep, and that obviously Jack had gone up there to see Ennis after TS1......I had always thought, that it was Ennis returning to camp that night, and walking up to Jack, who was waiting for him....

On viewing the scene again, I can see the sheep, and where the boys are, and it certainly adds another dimension to what was going on in their heads after TS1....Jack obviously needed to get into Ennis' face and confront their feelings or before the feelings might get lost and replaced with anger or embarrassment.

I had realsied it was upo at the sheeo - but I hadn't connected that jack shouldn't be there... oh my goodness! I need to watch the film again.. its been far too long.... (a couple of months) I'm baby sitting tonight - I may well sit down and watch it tonight!
http://www.idbrass.com

Please use the following links when shopping online -It will help us raise money without costing you a penny.

http://www.easyfundraising.org.uk/idb

http://idb.easysearch.org.uk/

Offline Katie77

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 7,998
  • Love is a force of Nature
Re: Timeline discovery
« Reply #16 on: January 26, 2007, 05:31:43 am »
Kelda.....glad to know, I wasnt the only one, who didnt know what happened in that scene....

Reminds me of the first time I saw the film, and I didnt see the words "deceased" stamped on the postcard.....then found out, that a lot of others didnt see it either....
Being happy doesn't mean everything is perfect.

It means you've decided to see beyond the imperfection

Offline Jeff Wrangler

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,165
  • "He somebody you cowboy'd with?"
Re: Timeline discovery
« Reply #17 on: January 28, 2007, 10:33:03 pm »
As some of the folks around here know, I was away visiting my dad for the weekend, and out of computer touch, but, of course, Brokeback and Bettermost are never far from my mind.  ;D And on the train out to my dad's I was thinking about this thread and the whole question of the time from TS1 to the "I ain't queer" conversation, and from the conversation to TS2. And another perspective popped into my head.

I think it's logical, when you watch the film, to assume that TS1 happened one night, late the next day they had the conversation, and that same night--the night after TS1--TS2 occurred.

But what happened was, I started thinking of Ennis as someone just "coming out," even if that just means just beginning to have male-male sex. Clearly the foundations of his world have been rocked by TS1. He is dealing with a lot of earth-shattering emotional issues. He's always thought of himself--assumed himself--to be an ordinary straight guy, and now, omigod  :o , he's just had sex with another guy.

I remembered, too, the look on Ennis's face in TS2. And then the thought occurred to me: With all the issues Ennis is dealing with, maybe--just maybe--it took a couple of days after TS1 and the "I ain't queer" conversation, for Ennis's need to overcome his fear?

A passage of a couple of days would at least, perhaps, allow for the apparent change in weather between the "I ain't queer" conversation and TS2 that has always troubled me.

Along with this, I got to wondering whether Ennis's closed eyes in TS2 is the film's equivalent of the line in the story, in Jack's dozy embrace reminiscence, about Ennis not then being willing to admit it was Jack he embraced.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Katie77

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 7,998
  • Love is a force of Nature
Re: Timeline discovery
« Reply #18 on: January 28, 2007, 11:33:23 pm »
As some of the folks around here know, I was away visiting my dad for the weekend, and out of computer touch, but, of course, Brokeback and Bettermost are never far from my mind.  ;D And on the train out to my dad's I was thinking about this thread and the whole question of the time from TS1 to the "I ain't queer" conversation, and from the conversation to TS2. And another perspective popped into my head.

I

First of all Jeff, I'm glad I'm not the only one, who dwells on some of these threads, when I'm driving, or just sitting quietly.....

And, yes, I think sometimes we forget, how mind boggling the experience in TS1 would have been for Ennis, and that its quite probable that TS2 was a few days at least afterward.
Being happy doesn't mean everything is perfect.

It means you've decided to see beyond the imperfection

Offline Cameron

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,747
Re: Timeline discovery
« Reply #19 on: January 28, 2007, 11:57:59 pm »
Hi Jeff and Katie and all

I am glad your starting to see my viewpoint.

It just makes so much sense to me that it was too days, expecially when I think of how Ennis started to with Jack, not being able to make eye contact till TS 1.  Especially when I realized how active he was.

It just seems to me that he really needed that time to understand and come to terms with his own actions and feelings, and he wouldn't have been able to face Jack the same day.

And for some reason I just think it fits and make sense, that Ennis spend the night all by himself out on the mountain.

And then he was finally ready to speak to Jack, and go into the tent in TS2.



Offline Jeff Wrangler

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,165
  • "He somebody you cowboy'd with?"
Re: Timeline discovery
« Reply #20 on: January 29, 2007, 10:27:20 am »
First of all Jeff, I'm glad I'm not the only one, who dwells on some of these threads, when I'm driving, or just sitting quietly.....

Generally speaking I do my best and clearest thinking about lotsa stuff, not just Brokeback Mountain, when I'm away from the computer--in the shower, at the gym, on the train. ...  Then the issue becomes remembering these profound thoughts when I'm in a position to do something about them.  ;D

It just seems to me that he really needed that time to understand and come to terms with his own actions and feelings, and he wouldn't have been able to face Jack the same day.

This I think is almost certainly true. He needed some time to come to some terms with what had just happened.

For myself, I'm not resolved on how much time elapsed encompassing all these events, TS1, the "I ain't queer conversation," and TS2, only that all three did not take place within one span of, say, 36 hours.

I'm not sure Ennis didn't come back down for supper the night after TS1, though it's plausible that he didn't and that would have made for a rather awkward meal, I'm afraid. I imagine Ennis spent at least a couple of nights with the sheep--like he was supposed to--after he found that sheep killed by the coyote, before he spent the night in the main camp again, and went into the tent with Jack.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Penthesilea

  • Town Administration
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 14,745
Re: Timeline discovery
« Reply #21 on: January 29, 2007, 11:38:14 am »
I'm not sure Ennis didn't come back down for supper the night after TS1, though it's plausible that he didn't and that would have made for a rather awkward meal, I'm afraid. I imagine Ennis spent at least a couple of nights with the sheep--like he was supposed to--after he found that sheep killed by the coyote, before he spent the night in the main camp again, and went into the tent with Jack.

This is a setting I could imagine (although I'm not convinced of it): That Ennis came back only for awkward supper, maybe skipped breakfast and took some bisquites instead - in short: that he did what his job was: eat supper (and breakfast, or maybe skipped breakfast) in camp, but stayed with the sheep, for the rest of the time.

What I can't believe is that Ennis just did not appear for supper the night after TS1, without any possibility to let Jack know. No mobile phones up there  ;). Remember how concerned Jack was when Ennis was just a couple of hours late after Ennis came on a bear? No way Jack would have waited one and a half day or even longer without any sign of life from Ennis. They were at the  wilderness out there, there were dangers like bears or whatever. They had to rely on each other and to back up each other. If Ennis hadn't come back for supper the next evening after TS1, and additionally hadn't come for breakfast the next morning - Jack would not have waited till afternoon to go up and check on Ennis. Unattached from their relationship it would have been careless, even if Ennis had been a total stranger to him.

Another thing comes to my mind; Annie Proulx' essay in the STS book:

In such isolated, high country, away from opprobrious comment and watchfulk eyes, I thought it would be plausible for the characters to get into a sexual situation. That's nothing new or out of the ordinary; livestock workers have a blunt and full understanding of the sexual behaviours of men and beast. High lonesome situation, a couple of guys, - expediency sometimes rules and nobody needs to talk about it and that's how it is. One old sheep rancher, dead now, used to say he always sent up two men to tend the sheep "so's if they get lonesome they can poke each other." [...] The complicatin factor was that they both fell into once-in-a-lifetime love.

So sure a big deal for our homophobe Ennis, with his history - but maybe not *that* earth-shattering. Ennis was pretty free and uninhibited with Jack their first summer. The total effect of his internal homophobia only set in once they came down the mountain, back into society, into the "real" world.
Ennis indeed needed time alone to mull over TS1. But I believe he managed in one day.

In the light of Annie's above quote, Ennis' words in the ain't queer dialog, seem almost natural: "This is a one shot thing we got goin' on here" (=one summer, and only sex, not in love, therefore not queer) - not: It was a one shot thing, period (=only the one night).

Offline nakymaton

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,045
  • aka Mel
Re: Timeline discovery
« Reply #22 on: January 29, 2007, 12:00:57 pm »
On the other hand, TS2 doesn't exist in the story. There's a romantic quality to TS2 - a sense that, yes, this is love, even if Ennis gropes at Jack without completely opening his eyes - that isn't present in the descriptions of the sex on the mountain in the story. The screenwriters clearly grappled with how to convey this, if you read the earlier drafts of the script -- TS2 was a late addition, and the earlier scripts show the relationship close to how it's conveyed in the book.

TS2 takes the relationship from the realm of "poking each other" and wrestling into something else, something that makes people watch the scene over and over on Youtube and so forth. So... could movie-Ennis have gotten to that point in one day? I don't know. I personally think it's a major emotional leap, and that the movie doesn't show us for sure one way or the other. I think that there could potentially be a week or more in the time from Ennis leaving after TS1 to the "I ain't queer" conversation to TS2. I think there could be awkward dinners and confused wrestling and everything before TS2... the early drafts of the script hint that the screenwriters toyed with all sorts of story-like ideas before letting TS2 and the happy tussle stand alone as the depictions of the romance and sex on the mountain.

But it's hard to say.

(I also don't think Ennis spent the entire night in camp again, except for the night when the sheep got mixed. But that's because the story implies that, not because of anything I see in the movie. And that doesn't mean he didn't eat there.)
Watch out. That poster has a low startle point.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,165
  • "He somebody you cowboy'd with?"
Re: Timeline discovery
« Reply #23 on: January 29, 2007, 12:26:22 pm »
TS2 takes the relationship from the realm of "poking each other" and wrestling into something else, something that makes people watch the scene over and over on Youtube and so forth. So... could movie-Ennis have gotten to that point in one day? I don't know. I personally think it's a major emotional leap, and that the movie doesn't show us for sure one way or the other. I think that there could potentially be a week or more in the time from Ennis leaving after TS1 to the "I ain't queer" conversation to TS2. I think there could be awkward dinners and confused wrestling and everything before TS2... the early drafts of the script hint that the screenwriters toyed with all sorts of story-like ideas before letting TS2 and the happy tussle stand alone as the depictions of the romance and sex on the mountain.

(Boldface added by me.)

Obviously I agree with you, Mel, and I like the way you've explicated it here. Once you violate Society's taboo on having sex with someone of your own gender, you can never go back and "un"-violate it. The more I think about it, the more I take into consideration all we see of Ennis through the years, the less plausible I find it that Ennis could have brought himself to do it again so soon as the next night after TS1.

No offense intended, Penthesilea. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one--though I am finding myself agreeing with you that Ennis did come down for supper the night after TS1.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Penthesilea

  • Town Administration
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 14,745
Re: Timeline discovery
« Reply #24 on: January 29, 2007, 01:04:29 pm »
On the other hand, TS2 doesn't exist in the story.

Mel, you just shot my argumentation out of the sky. At least the part with Proulx' essay. You're right. Why didn't I think of this  :-\?

Quote
if you read the earlier drafts of the script

I will. Thank you very much! I'll pm you about them.

Offline Penthesilea

  • Town Administration
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 14,745
Re: Timeline discovery
« Reply #25 on: January 29, 2007, 01:12:31 pm »
No offense intended, Penthesilea. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one--though I am finding myself agreeing with you that Ennis did come down for supper the night after TS1.

No offense taken. The world would be a pretty boring place if we all had the same opinions. And this board would long be dead if it were not for the movie's and story's subtlety and ambiguity - plenty of room for individual interpretation and discrepance.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,165
  • "He somebody you cowboy'd with?"
Re: Timeline discovery
« Reply #26 on: January 29, 2007, 01:22:55 pm »
No offense taken. The world would be a pretty boring place if we all had the same opinions. And this board would long be dead if it were not for the movie's and story's subtlety and ambiguity - plenty of room for individual interpretation and discrepance.


"Sure enough!"  :D
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline nakymaton

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,045
  • aka Mel
Re: Timeline discovery
« Reply #27 on: January 29, 2007, 01:39:20 pm »
BTW... I wouldn't say that early drafts of the script tell us what "really happened," or that they necessarily fill gaps in the existing story. They tell us how the screenwriters changed their conceptions of the characters and the story through time. Some (most?) of the scenes were left out of the final version because they somehow clashed with the characterization or the progress of the story, or because they simply didn't feel right.

But I still think that the Ennis that we know from the movie really wrestles with his feelings as well as with Jack. And I think movie-Ennis cared a lot about Jack before the sex began -- ordering soup, for instance, and talking more than he had talked in a year. So my gut sense is that Ennis's feelings were probably tangled up from the moment he had sex with Jack. Combine that with Ennis's childhood memory of Earl's murder, and you get... well, you get a guy who probably couldn't take TS1 lightly.
Watch out. That poster has a low startle point.

Offline serious crayons

  • Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,712
Re: Timeline discovery
« Reply #28 on: January 29, 2007, 03:01:21 pm »
TS2 takes the relationship from the realm of "poking each other" and wrestling into something else, something that makes people watch the scene over and over on Youtube and so forth. So... could movie-Ennis have gotten to that point in one day? I don't know. I personally think it's a major emotional leap

My feeling is that he was already at that point BEFORE TS1. That is, his feelings for Jack were simmering on some back burner of his brain, only partly acknowledged consciously, though perhaps subtly sensed by Jack. Ennis made himself think of his feelings as platonic deep friendship, as when he looks up at Jack on the mountainside, orders the soup, shoots the elk, speaks more than he'd spoke in a year. We do see some non-platonic thoughts try to sneak into his brain when he leans over to check Jack out as Jack is riding away. Then in TS1 -- in fact, in that particular moment in TS1 when Ennis goes from throwing Jack off to grabbing Jack's head -- the emotions suddenly move to the front burner, and Ennis lets himself confront the fact that his feelings for Jack aren't just platonic.

Throughout the next day, he mulls this over. As he wakes in the tent and then rides up to the sheep, he looks troubled and pensive, but not necessarily regretful. Even when he sees the dead sheep -- at first I thought it was supposed to be a sign that he'd sinned, now I think it's more a reminder of the dangers that could lie ahead. In any case, at this point, Ennis has to really deal with the fact that he's romantically and sexually attracted to Jack. He decides he'll go for it, but only with certain ground rules: one-shot thing, not queer.

But then, I think there's some truth to the notion that by "one-shot thing" Ennis ALSO means, at a deeper level, that he and Jack will be faithful to each other.

That's why I think TS2 happened that same night. By the time Jack showed up on the mountain, Ennis had already done all the hard work and come to a decision. Why, at that point, would he postpone acting on it?


Offline Jeff Wrangler

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,165
  • "He somebody you cowboy'd with?"
Re: Timeline discovery
« Reply #29 on: January 29, 2007, 04:52:41 pm »
I'll give you this much, Katherine, at least you're consistent with your own interpretation of Ennis.  :)

It won't surprise you that your interpretation is implausible to me because it's not consistent with my understanding of Ennis. If I've understood you correctly, you've more or less always thought Ennis was more self-aware and more self-accepting than I have--and I have a deeper faith in the human capacity for self-denial and self-acceptance than you do.

Now that I've really thought about the time frame for these scenes, assuming that all these events happened within one 36- to 48-hour period doesn't accord with my understanding of Ennis, and it also doesn't accord generally with my life experience-based understanding of deeply internally homophobic gay men.

As for when he finds that dead sheep, deep meanings aside, I think he looks--and feels--guilty, not because he had sex with Jack the night before, but because he wasn't where he was supposed to be that night--with the sheep, doing his job, not in the main camp, regardless of what he and Jack were up to--and look what happened.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline serious crayons

  • Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,712
Re: Timeline discovery
« Reply #30 on: January 29, 2007, 05:30:16 pm »
I'll give you this much, Katherine,

I always love it when someone starts out this way!  :laugh:

Quote
As for when he finds that dead sheep, deep meanings aside, I think he looks--and feels--guilty, not because he had sex with Jack the night before, but because he wasn't where he was supposed to be that night--with the sheep, doing his job, not in the main camp, regardless of what he and Jack were up to--and look what happened.

I do agree with this!  :) I should clarify that when I talked about the sheep meaning sinning/danger, I was talking in a symbolic sense. For Ennis, consciously, I think it just meant that he'd failed in his duty. But I do think he looks more chagrined than ashamed, so I don't think he's connecting it with the previous night's specific activities.

Scott6373

  • Guest
Re: Timeline discovery
« Reply #31 on: January 29, 2007, 05:34:14 pm »
I think that we can get caught up in time lines too much.  AP purposefully didn't frame out a chronological base, because it wasn't time that was the limiting or determining factor in the story, not was it for the film makers.  The laconic and pedantic pace of the story would have been ruined had more attention been placed on time lines.  I do have to agree with Jeff, however, that Ennis could not have internalized that kind of event over night to the point where he could be accepting of sex with Jack.

Offline Katie77

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 7,998
  • Love is a force of Nature
Re: Timeline discovery
« Reply #32 on: January 29, 2007, 07:34:12 pm »
I read the book again last night, and tried to get some idea about how Ennis was feeling after TS1........It seems in the book, that as soon as soon as Ennis went into the tent that night, after his "hammering", that they "cuddled up"....It was big enough,warm enough, and in a little while they deepened their intimacy considerably.Ennis ran full throttle on all roads whether fence mending or money spending, and he wanted none of it when Jack seized his left hand and brought it to his erect cock.  Ennis jerked his hand away as though he'd touched fire, got to his knees, unbuckled his belt, shoved his pants down, hauled Jack onto all fours and, with the help of the clear slick and a little spit, entered him, nothing he'd done before but no instrunciton manual needed......`

Can someone explain what Annie means with the "full throttle" statement, and how it reflects on "wanted none of it when Jack seized his left hand........"

Ennis in TS1 in the book, is far different to Ennis in TS1 in the movie, and the sex that went on after TS1, in the book, seemed to be just raw rough sex, no real intimacy or even emotional.

Later on in the book, when they were at the Siesta motel, and Ennis was talking to Jack and he says You know, I was sittin up here all that time tryin to figuree out if I was------?...which indicates to me, that it wasnt the sex that really bothered Ennis, but whether he was actually gay or not.....I think that was what troubled Ennis all his life, just who he really was, and what it really was that he had with Jack, if he loved Jack he could be gay, but he still liked doin it with women, so he couldn't be, seems like he just didnt know who or what he was and that is why he couldnt commit fully to either Alma or Jack.

I'm glad they put TS2 in the movie, not only is the scene a beautiful explanation of two people finding true intimate love for the first time, but it also reflects how the film viewers of 2006 would anticipate how their intimacy evolved, if the film had been made back in 1963, then the way it was depicted in the book, probably would have been sufficient......thats my take on it anyway.

Being happy doesn't mean everything is perfect.

It means you've decided to see beyond the imperfection

moremojo

  • Guest
Re: Timeline discovery
« Reply #33 on: January 29, 2007, 08:02:36 pm »
Can someone explain what Annie means with the "full throttle" statement, and how it reflects on "wanted none of it when Jack seized his left hand........"
This is my take on it, Sue: Ennis was not a reflective sort of person, and, upon making a decision (ranging from mending fence to having sex), went unequivocally for the task at hand, right then and there. Ennis knew that the situation was turning sexual, at least by the point in time when Jack drew his hand to his erection, and gave in to his impulsive lust, but (and this is where his wanting "none of it" comes in) was determined to take charge of the situation. Ennis does not see himself as queer, so he rejects the overtly homoerotic quality that seizing Jack's member would have offered, and steers the encounter into one in which he penetrates Jack, and thus retains his 'male' or 'masculine' prerogative. (Now, I'm not saying that being on top is more male or masculine, but this is how someone like Ennis would have seen things).

I love the film's second tent scene, but one thing that makes the story so powerful is in how it gradually reveals the depth of Ennis and Jack's mutual feeling in increments. These two rationalize that it's just circumstantial sex, but they are actually falling in love. They and the reader do not fully realize this until the bitter end.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,165
  • "He somebody you cowboy'd with?"
Re: Timeline discovery
« Reply #34 on: January 29, 2007, 08:09:42 pm »
Can someone explain what Annie means with the "full throttle" statement, and how it reflects on "wanted none of it when Jack seized his left hand........"


While I essentially agree with Scott, my take is, I think, a little more direct, if a little more coarse. I take it to mean that Ennis wasn't going to piddle around with any coy mutual masturbation. If Jack wanted sex with Ennis, well, Ennis was gonna give him quick, hard, furious, no-holds-barred sex.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Katie77

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 7,998
  • Love is a force of Nature
Re: Timeline discovery
« Reply #35 on: January 29, 2007, 09:54:40 pm »
Thanks guys......I get what both of you are saying, and that "full throttle" statement makes much more sense now.....


Same thing probably applies to what I was saying about Ennis trying to work out if he was gay or not....he couldn't go "full throttle" into either relationship, Jack or Alma, then later Cassie.
Being happy doesn't mean everything is perfect.

It means you've decided to see beyond the imperfection