Author Topic: What did they really mean......  (Read 5131 times)

Offline Cameron

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What did they really mean......
« on: January 26, 2007, 07:35:34 pm »
This may go along in the double meaning thread, but I have been thinking about it alot.  The more I have been watching over and over, the more I realize that lines that I thought I understood the first few times I now understand less and less about what they really mean. I guess the more familiar I am with the characters the more I realize that so many lines that were said could actually have many, many, many meanings and now I am trying to figure these out but I guess there are no real answers.

The number one line for me with meaning changes.

"This is a one-shot thing we got going on here"  The more I watch the more I wonder exactly what did this really mean, was the one shot the summer, or Jack, or the relationship? 

Then there are the lines in the sheep fiasco

"What if we need to work for Aguirre again"
"Did you think of that?"

"We got to stick it out, Jack"  Surely this was not just about separating the sheep.

Even " if you can't fix it, you gotta stand it"

"There are no reigns of this one" I know these are obvious ones, but still.

Of course there are now many whole scenes that take on new meanings.

Of course, what exactly was Lureen thinking and trying to say, about the ashes, that is.

What were the words behind silent conversation between Jack and Mrs Twist after he found the shirts, why did she put her hand to her throat at that second looking at Ennis.

In fact, even a seeming innocuous incident, when Jack and LaShawn were dancing and she was just babbling on, to me there was even something meaningful and poignant about her babbling, " I told him you can't fix it with..."  (Please forgive me but I forgot those exact words right now.)

I am sure many of things have been discusses like crazy here previously, but it all really strikes me how ambiguous almost every line in the whole film is once you think you understand.
(I know I listed some of the most obvious one, there are so many more)
« Last Edit: January 26, 2007, 07:42:51 pm by marlb42 »



Offline fernly

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Re: What did they really mean......
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2007, 07:51:36 pm »
Couple thoughts about a couple of the lines you mention....

Jack's mom putting her hand to her throat always reminds me of Ennis' dad putting his hand around his nine-year-old son's throat. I see OMT as the one really moving his wife's hand, shutting her up. I saw an interesting documentary about ranch life in Wyoming from about 20 years ago, and one of the wives was talking about the generations of men in the family she married into, how strong and resilient and resourceful they were, but also that "you better not cross them, you better not."

And Lashawn's comment, on a very basic, non-metaphorical level, (and I agree, there certainly are symbolic levels to it) I think functions to show that Randall and Jack have met before. Do you think he just gave them a ride into town, or do you think he helped get their pickup started?
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: What did they really mean......
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2007, 07:41:09 pm »
If you can’t fix it then, by God, drive off from it--that’s my motto.”

Uh-oh ...!  :-\

Offline Lynne

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Re: What did they really mean......
« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2007, 07:49:55 pm »
Uh-oh ...!  :-\

Uh-oh is right.  Jack's adapted Ennis' philosophy to either 1) suit himself or 2) ironically, see how Ennis drives off from him meeting after meeting.  I tend toward 2.  And what a prescient scene coming before the confrontation, the dozy embrace, and Ennis driving away for what will be the last time.

Why in the world did they omit that??

 :-\ :'(
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Offline fernly

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Re: What did they really mean......
« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2007, 07:57:54 pm »
Quote from: goadra
One version of the screenplay (2004)...

Where did you find the other version(s?) of the screenplay?
Are they available online?
« Last Edit: January 27, 2007, 09:04:14 pm by fernly »
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Offline Lynne

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Re: What did they really mean......
« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2007, 08:33:12 pm »
2004 screenplay, continued -- here’s a part that really gets to me:

Jack: “I wish I knew how to quit you.”
...
ENNIS stands as if heartshot, face gray and deep-lined. Fights a silent battle, grimaces.

Ennis: “Why don’t you?! Why, why do you keep after me? I could lick this. I know I could. But you -- it’s you, don’t you see? It’s because of you I’m like this. You scratch two words on a postcard, I come runnin’ like a dog. And I don’t understand it, and I never wanted it, I don’t want it. I just don’t want it.”

Very sad, indeed, Barbara - but isn't the highlighted portion above really Jack's line?  I guess he could be miniizing for effect, but Ennis is the one who scratched the two words.

I'll never believe Ennis truly blamed Jack for who he was; more he was in so much pain he was lashing out at the one person he did know loved him and would stand it.
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Offline BBM-Cat

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Re: What did they really mean......
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2007, 09:09:55 pm »
WOW. What incredible insights from the previous screenplay... I did not realize there were different versions of the screenplay. I have the STS book so that must be of course, the final screenplay, but where does one obtain earlier versions? Thanks in advance.
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: What did they really mean......
« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2007, 09:44:10 pm »
If you can’t fix it then, by God, drive off from it--that’s my motto.”
Uh-oh ...!  :-\
Uh-oh is right.  Jack's adapted Ennis' philosophy to either 1) suit himself or 2) ironically, see how Ennis drives off from him meeting after meeting.  I tend toward 2.

Well, plus, "if you can't fix it ... drive off from it" seems to support the idea that in the end Jack decided, since he couldn't "fix" Ennis, to "drive off from it" -- i.e., quit him.

So that part is sad. But this

Ennis: “... Why, why do you keep after me? I could lick this. I know I could. But you -- it’s you, don’t you see? It’s because of you I’m like this. You scratch two words on a postcard, I come runnin’ like a dog. And I don’t understand it, and I never wanted it, I don’t want it. I just don’t want it.”

is just totally depressing. THANK GOD that wasn't in the movie.

My inclination, when I hear earlier versions of the screenplay, is to clap my hands over my ears and sing "la la la la la" really loudly.

Offline nakymaton

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Re: What did they really mean......
« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2007, 09:58:04 pm »
Uh-oh is right.  Jack's adapted Ennis' philosophy to either 1) suit himself or 2) ironically, see how Ennis drives off from him meeting after meeting.  I tend toward 2.  And what a prescient scene coming before the confrontation, the dozy embrace, and Ennis driving away for what will be the last time.

Why in the world did they omit that??

Because it would have lacked the subtlety and ambiguity of the rest of the movie. For the same reason that the scene with the threatening mechanics was dropped, I think.

(fernly, BBM-Cat, anybody else, I've got copies of a couple of the old drafts of the screenplay if you want em. Drop me a pm, let me know if your there.)
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Offline Penthesilea

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Re: What did they really mean......
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2007, 09:27:27 am »
Quote
If you can’t fix it then, by God, drive off from it--that’s my motto.”

Am I the only one to who this sounds plain wrong? I think that's everything but Jack's motto.

Jack didn't drive off from anything.

In the beginning of the movie, Jack was only 19 by then, he knew there's no way to please his old man. But he kept on trying. He came back there year after year. And not only to see his mom, like I've read sometimes. He tried to please OMT by helping him, by saying one day he'd be back (with Ennis) to lick that place in shape.

He wasn't very successful in the rodeo, but he kept trying (until he met Lureen).
Their marriage wasn't successful, too - but he stayed in it. He didn't like working for LD - but he did not drive off from it.

He didn't get that sweet life with Randall either (for whatever reasons, I think he didn't want it with him); with Randall he also just had a secret affair on the side - but he didn't drive off from it, too.

Quote
Well, plus, "if you can't fix it ... drive off from it" seems to support the idea that in the end Jack decided, since he couldn't "fix" Ennis, to "drive off from it" -- i.e., quit him.

And Ennis. He didn't drive off from him (quit him) for twenty years. Between that remark he made to Randall about driving off and the lake scene argument were five years (although I'm still not sure about the timeline here, it was years anyway). In the end Jack had thoughts of quitting Ennis, he even said so - but he didn't.

Jack never quit/drove off from something, his whole life. That's why I think the quote from the older screenplay sounds wrong, even ironic.

Offline Ladyeve

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Re: What did they really mean......
« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2007, 09:54:48 am »
penthesilas, I agree with you.

Jack and Ennis was caught in their own trap.  The love they had for each other, and the battle between each other for a life together.   

At various times in their relationship declarations were always being made, but still they couldn't stay away from each other.

Remember on the mountain after the first night encounter,  When Ennis told  Jack (I think more for himself), that this was a "one shot deal" and Jack replying "Its no body business but ours"  this is where I think the battle for their love started.  Just remember in all those years neither ever raised a white flag.

Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: What did they really mean......
« Reply #11 on: January 28, 2007, 11:27:55 am »
Just remember in all those years neither ever raised a white flag.

I'm with U on that Ladyeve! The closest they ever came was when Jack said "I wish I could quit you" but he knew he never could.
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Offline Phillip Dampier

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Re: What did they really mean......
« Reply #12 on: January 28, 2007, 02:57:47 pm »
Jack and Ennis was caught in their own trap.  The love they had for each other, and the battle between each other for a life together.   

At various times in their relationship declarations were always being made, but still they couldn't stay away from each other.

Remember on the mountain after the first night encounter,  When Ennis told  Jack (I think more for himself), that this was a "one shot deal" and Jack replying "Its no body business but ours"  this is where I think the battle for their love started.  Just remember in all those years neither ever raised a white flag.

I think the dialogue deleted about "licking this" and the protestations in general about one's sexuality and who was responsible for what is very familiar to a lot of gay men.  Back in 1986 when I was 19, I had my first sexual experience.  I'm sure dealing with my sexuality in the Reagan 80's was not as easy as it might be these days, but I'm also sure it was a lot easier for me than it would have been in the mountain west of the 1960s.  By that time in my life, I would have been far closer to Jack Twist in how I could handle my sexuality - I realized it was there but saw no need to dwell on it.  Acting on it and not having regrets after the fact would be about right for me, but for the other guy I was with, it was much closer to Ennis all the way.  He was there for the experience, but afterwards the denial about what it meant, the lack of interest in -any- words about it, and then even protestations that he didn't "need it."  Right up until the point he did it again.  Rinse and repeat.

Listening to Ennis, and reading the suggested screenplay, made this all very familiar for me.  The guilt surrounding a lot of gay men who surrender to their completely natural sexual and emotional needs only to punish themselves for it after the fact is tragic and so completely unnecessary.  But for a lot of people who are surrounded by people who suggest moral codes (which more often than not end up exposing them as hypocrites when they cannot practice what they preach), they feel utterly helpless to control the things in their lives which others will regularly condemn.

For Ennis, expectations for his life were no doubt laid before him growing up and his plan was to simply follow that plan.  It's no surprise to me that he completely feared being outed, which is probably a good reason he was so withdrawn and closed-mouthed to begin with.  What if he ever said something or acted "that way."

Jack had enough self-confidence to keep pushing forward, even when he realized he fell short (and sometimes he never realized it).  Ennis never tried until the final moments of the film when he had his moment of clarity sufficient to realize what he ultimately had lost.  To me, the whole thing was tragic, but was necessary to slam home the impact this film had on so many people.  It was a driving reason for me to -act- by finding a way to start a community where people who visited realize they don't have to follow in those footsteps, that there are alternatives, and it's never too late to make a change.
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