Am I Nuts???

[Sheyne]

I was just rewatching the You Tube "4 nights in 20 years" thing...  Just for something different of course.. 

Am I crazy, or in that final sleeping hug in the tent before the lake scene fight.... I know Ennis has his arm over Jack, but it really looks to me as though Jack is also hugging Ennis???  I put a screen cap down the bottom..  It just looks to me as though his left arm is reaching back underneath Ennis's to hug him back..  Sorry if this has been said already or debated.. But just wondering if one of you guys with the Open Matte version with more screen could confirm or deny this supposition???  Thanks..
 

[Daniel]

I don't think it's easy to tell. Jack's left hand is clearly visible, but his right arm is in the sleeping bag. I think what you are seeing is the sleeping bag, but it could be just me.

[ednbarby]

I think it's possible that he could be from the angle of his shoulder, there.

This is such a beautiful shot.  It's not easy to sleep spooned like that.  My husband and I used to try in our early in-love days.  Never lasted more than a minute - it was too uncomfortable.  We still don't *sleep* well together.  I think being able to sleep so comfortably and close with someone else like that is so intimate - it's the very essence of intimacy, along with cooking and eating together, which we never see Jack or Ennis do with their wives but that they do like second nature with each other.

[Sheyne]

I'm hoping one of those guys with multiple copies in different formats can have a look for me..  Those screen caps from the open matte format are massive and I'm hoping it will reveal it for me.

Its not like I'm gonna die or anything but it would give a very sweet new dimension to the scene, especially as its their last night together.  Ever.

 

[isabelle]

Sheyne - I cannot answer your question - don't have the dvd yet, and the film's not showing anymore here - but one thing I had not noticed is the frown on Ennis's face/forehead.

And ednbarby, I agree that eating together is a very intimate act.

[chefjudy]

  indeed the act of sharing a meal together is so inherent in most species, that it is second nature - for humans it is and should be a bonding element between people regardless of their relationship to each other - so basic to our pysche that it begins in infancy with the union of mother and child.....................

[David]

I  love that scene!    To me it represents alot.   Primarily that Ennis has come along way in his accepting his love for Jack.   He voluntarily has his arm around Jack.   A very affectionate and protecting gesture.   

Despite all their little fights, Ennis knows that Jack is the only one for him.  That is also why he doesn't say anything to Jack about August being cancelled.  Ennis wants to prolong their enjoyment of that week together till the end.

In Ennis's mind, he is doing all he can do.       

David

[ednbarby]

Isabelle, what a lovely observation - it's one of the few times (perhaps the only one) they are together that the frown is not present in Ennis' forehead.  In sleep, we are absolutely our true selves.  Nothing conscious and affected can penetrate.  Man, what a genius Heath Ledger is.

And Judy, that's so true.  Do you know - when I was in high school, I was so painfully shy and inward that I did not like to eat in the cafeteria - I hated the idea of anyone "seeing" me do that - to the point that I would bring my own lunch and hide out in the girls' locker room and eat like a squirrel?  Seems so weird, now (well hell, I guess it's always been weird) - considering I can go to restaurants alone without a second thought these days.  On the other hand, those are people I don't know.  Hmmmmm...  Damn.  I'm such an Ennis.

[delalluvia]

I think it's possible that he could be from the angle of his shoulder, there.

This is such a beautiful shot.  It's not easy to sleep spooned like that.  My husband and I used to try in our early in-love days.  Never lasted more than a minute - it was too uncomfortable.  We still don't *sleep* well together.  I think being able to sleep so comfortably and close with someone else like that is so intimate - it's the very essence of intimacy, along with cooking and eating together, which we never see Jack or Ennis do with their wives but that they do like second nature with each other.

I'm with barb, it's hard to sleep spooned unless you are very very comfortable and to be that way, with Ennis' left arm over Jack, his right should be curled in front of him, Jack in essentially the same position, except his arm is just up by his face.  That way both are basically sleeping on their sides which - unless they have some very good padding or they've got the tent pitched on sand - is going to leave them with rocks digging into their hips.

[amh]

I  love that scene!    To me it represents alot.   Primarily that Ennis has come along way in his accepting his love for Jack.   He voluntarily has his arm around Jack.   A very affectionate and protecting gesture.   

Despite all their little fights, Ennis knows that Jack is the only one for him.  That is also why he doesn't say anything to Jack about August being cancelled.  Ennis wants to prolong their enjoyment of that week together till the end.

In Ennis's mind, he is doing all he can do.       

David

Those are nice, observant sentiments, David.  All those things evoked in one fleeting shot, motionless except for their breathing.  Thanks for posting!

[henrypie]

I can spoon in bed, but definitely not on the ground.  Uch, everything is harder on the ground.  Of course.

IF Jack's arm is reaching back, it's a bookend to his very first reach-around, isn't it.

[Sheyne]

I can spoon in bed, but definitely not on the ground.  Uch, everything is harder on the ground.  Of course.

IF Jack's arm is reaching back, it's a bookend to his very first reach-around, isn't it.

That's exactly why I checked the scene out, Sarah..  There's lots of little parallels throughout the movie and the You Tube clip is probably the lightest I've seen either that scene or the 1st tent scene.  It made me wonder though...

[littleguitar]

This thread is so interesting to me because I've always had a completley different take on that shot... though it looks like I'm in the minority, LOL!

That shot always seemed incredibly sad to me, even the first time I saw it, before I knew what was coming after it. You guys are all right, they do look very peaceful and incredibly comfortable and intimate with each other, and there is no frown on Ennis's face... so I don't know what it is about it, but it always made me sad, like there was some tension between them in that shot, like they've slept like this before but there is something off about it tonight.  Maybe it's the fact that it comes right after "the truth is, sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it" which is, for me, the saddest line in the film.  Also, we always get that shot of the outside of the tent with that light blinking far off in the distance and I always get uncomfortable when I see that light, like they are being watched. Then we go to them the next day packing the trucks and looking very unhappy.

I know this has been a lot of rambling, but the point of it all is is that that scene had the opposite effect for me, it just made me very very sad, I thought in that scene that you could just feel their time together was drawing to a close.  We know it's their last night together during that specific trip, but we feel that it's their last night together period. Does that make sense to anyone?

[amh]

Does that make sense to anyone?

Sure it does!  And actually, I think it's sad, too, for the same reasons you mentioned.  That's the thing about this movie - there are very few scenes where the viewer experiences one single emotion, or where there is no conflict of emotions.  Practically even scene evokes feelings that toggle back and forth between love found, love lost, love enjoyed, and love never fully experienced, etc.  The entire movie is complex like that, just like their relationship, and this little itty bitty scene is no exception.  That's probably part of the reason it sticks with us so.

[ednbarby]

I concur, Ann Marie - the very complexity of every scene is why it sticks with us.  It doesn't tell us what to think in any of it.  That's the genius of it and ultimately why I love it so much.  There's nothing I hate more in film or television, as I've said many times, than being patronized and/or manipulated.  This film never does either of those things.  And for that reason above all I am eternally grateful to everyone involved, most especially to the master, Ang Lee.

[ednbarby]

And Sheyne, I love the idea of Jack's reaching back being a bookend to Ennis' reaching forward.  Isn't that really the thread running through the whole film - Jack always being a few steps ahead of Ennis, but always reaching back to him?  In the end, Ennis finally reaches out to Jack, but it's too late. 

 

[dmmb_Mandy]

Oooh, I LOVE that scene. (David & I will reinact it to the best of our ability in CT's little reinactment  )
Sheyne, I agree with most people here, I think that's just the sleeping bag you're seeing, although it would be precious if he really were hugging him back.

[isabelle]

I was just rewatching the You Tube "4 nights in 20 years" thing...  Just for something different of course.. 

Am I crazy, or in that final sleeping hug in the tent before the lake scene fight.... I know Ennis has his arm over Jack, but it really looks to me as though Jack is also hugging Ennis???  I put a screen cap down the bottom..  It just looks to me as though his left arm is reaching back underneath Ennis's to hug him back..  Sorry if this has been said already or debated.. But just wondering if one of you guys with the Open Matte version with more screen could confirm or deny this supposition???  Thanks..
 

Oh Sheyne, just wanted to let you know: after watching this picture very closely yesterday, I had a dream about it last night (and I've just woken up, sort of): I was in the tent with JACK (yes, yes, I was, and I was me, not Ennis!), and HE had his arm around me and although I was butted against him, I had my arm around him. And he was very chatty, whereas I was silent all the time, thinking "wow, I am in the tent with Jack". Awesome dream! So I guess this is thank you!

[serious crayons]

Yes to what everybody said. For me, this scene is primarily reassuring and heartwarming. I see it as a sign that, despite all their problems, they are still close, still very physically affectionate, still happy as long as they're in the shelter of the tent, still sleep snuggled together even though, yes, it can be an uncomfortable way to sleep. It shows that, however ambivalent Ennis is about the relationship itself, he is not ambivalent in his feelings for Jack. I see it as the happiest five seconds of the last half of the movie.

But that said, I also see a subtle undertone of sadness here that I can't quite articulate.

Such a tiny moment, but I'm so glad it's there.

[newyearsday]

My take on this is similar to Mandy I's, (littleguitar), with a little of Katherine's (latjoreme) too. I feel sad when I see that this is all they get for their last night. It's realistic I think (though I know that in the book they are having sex by the campfire and they don't show it in the movie, sadly.) I am glad to see it's Ennis, at last, with his arm around Jack, but there is not peace to me in this scene. And I really differ from some of you in that I think Ennis is frowning, very clearly. So, it's a mixed bag for me. I would love to know about the Jack thing, his arm that is. I still haven't caught that hand holding in the first tent scene!

Jenny

[DeeDee]

You can't really see Jacks arm because it looks like there is a comforter over them.  What I did notice, is the slight twitch of Ennis' mouth.. To me, that represents a restless sleep.
Maybe I'm reaching,  but I'm always looking for new things.

[Sheyne]

My take on this is similar to Mandy I's, (littleguitar), with a little of Katherine's (latjoreme) too. I feel sad when I see that this is all they get for their last night. It's realistic I think (though I know that in the book they are having sex by the campfire and they don't show it in the movie, sadly.) I am glad to see it's Ennis, at last, with his arm around Jack, but there is not peace to me in this scene. And I really differ from some of you in that I think Ennis is frowning, very clearly. So, it's a mixed bag for me. I would love to know about the Jack thing, his arm that is. I still haven't caught that hand holding in the first tent scene!

Jenny

I agree Jenny..  Ennis IS frowning - you can see at least 2, perhaps 3 lines on his forehead. And there is a subtle tension here, I can't put my finger on it. I wish they had shown that last scene by the campfire myself    but it would play against the "never enough time, never enough" contention of Jack's the following morning.

Have you checked out the You Tube video yet, Jenny?  The hand-holding is quite clear on that one - refer back to the "saw the hand holdin" thread for more info and explanations of what to look for and where.

Cheers,
S.

[isabelle]

And I really differ from some of you in that I think Ennis is frowning, very clearly. So, it's a mixed bag for me. I would love to know about the Jack thing, his arm that is. I still haven't caught that hand holding in the first tent scene!

Jenny

Hi Jenny,
In fact I think I was misunderstood, because what I meant was that Ennis IS frowning, and I hadn't noticed before! And I find this passage sad too.

[serious crayons]

Well, I just watched that scene pretty much frame-by-frame on YouTube (I don't own a DVD), and I can't see anything in that little moment itself that suggests unhappiness or discontent. I suppose you could point to the fact that they're wearing clothes, but we know that it's cold. They look content to me. And Ennis' arm over Jack seems completely affectionate. I think my sadness regarding the scene is caused by what I know comes immediately before and after it.

[Ellemeno]

Thank you for this good thread, friends.

I tend to feel angry/irked with Ennis when he withholds from Jack his expression of love.   So when Jack says, "Truth is sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it," and Ennis says nothing at all back, I start getting pissed off at Ennis.  And then when I see him holding Jack while Jack is asleep, I think "Why can't you show him that tenderness when he's awake?" And I hope that Jack can be aware of the holding, but worry that he's sleeping through it and missing it.

My annoyance with Ennis around his not responding to Jack's "Truth is..." speech was mitigated when I realized (through someone here pointing it out) that when Jack says those powerful words of yearning and pain, Ennis must feel piles and piles of guilt and dread, because he already knows that they won't be seeing each other til November, but still hasn't told Jack yet.  So, as always, my annoyance with Ennis melts into "Poor Ennis," for his plight.

As to Jack's arm, it looks like maybe it could be as you propose, Sheyne.  And who knows, we just see that they are wearing shirts.  Who knows what their pants are doing.  Maybe they fell asleep with Jack pulling Ennis close in.

P.S. That's my favorite shirt of Ennis's.  He wears it in the truck scene with Alma Jr. too.  It looks like it has feathers on it.  Ooo!  Must go to bird thread and post that observation.

[Front-Ranger]

Good observation, Ellemeno! I hope you will mention the shirt on the "buckets and birds" thread! I started to notice the references to Jack as like a horse during crucial scenes, but the only reference to Ennis being like a bird that I found so far was when he was lying "spread eagled" on the bed in the motel scene.

Now that I have had the chance to alternate reading the short story with watching the DVD, it's interesting how Ennis is portrayed much more as the "unattainable object of love" in the movie. This makes us so frustrated at the unfairness to Jack but adds to the dramatic tension, I guess. The story is much more about two men who stand together against the world, while the film is more about Jack against Ennis, the world, and everything. Even his father-in-law and wife, who are more neutral in the story. It almost verges on being unbelievable that the whole world would be against this beautiful and lovable person! (I railed on that topic some more in my "Jack was maligned unfairly" thread on IMDB, now safely archived here.) Whenever watching the movie gets me down too much, I go back and read the story. It helps.

[ednbarby]

Excellent point, F-R.  I have that problem with the movie versus the story, too - I find it almost unbearable that *everyone* could be against that beautiful person to some extent or another.  Not unbelievable, actually, but unbearable.  And I think you've touched on why I was so devastated on my second viewing of the movie - much moreso than I was on my first.  I think a second viewing is necessary to really *see* Jack.  At least it was for me.  To see how almost angelic he is - how much he sacrifices, and how he finally makes the ultimate sacrifice for/because of his beloved.  The same thing happened to my husband on his second viewing the other night - he actually wept openly during the entire Lightning Flat visit whereas he barely got misty the first time he saw it in January - I'll have to ask him why he thinks that is.  Most likely in his very Ennis-like way, he'll say next to nothing in response.     But it's still worth a shot, right?

And I, too, noticed the frowning and the quivering lips on Ennis in the final tent scene.  I had before thought of him as sleeping peacefully with Jack, but I realize that would be out of keeping with his character and with what we know he's going to have to tell Jack in the morning, so of course his sleep would be fitful.  And yes, it makes me deeply, deeply sad.

[serious crayons]

I tend to feel angry/irked with Ennis when he withholds from Jack his expression of love.   So when Jack says, "Truth is sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it," and Ennis says nothing at all back, I start getting pissed off at Ennis.  And then when I see him holding Jack while Jack is asleep, I think "Why can't you show him that tenderness when he's awake?" And I hope that Jack can be aware of the holding, but worry that he's sleeping through it and missing it.

My annoyance with Ennis around his not responding to Jack's "Truth is..." speech was mitigated when I realized (through someone here pointing it out) that when Jack says those powerful words of yearning and pain, Ennis must feel piles and piles of guilt and dread, because he already knows that they won't be seeing each other til November, but still hasn't told Jack yet.  So, as always, my annoyance with Ennis melts into "Poor Ennis," for his plight.

I think both of these issues -- Ennis' unresponsiveness to Jack's "truth is" statement, and what the flung arm indicates -- are examples of this movie's agonizing ambiguity. Personally, whenever there are two ways to interpret something, one happier and one sadder, I tend to grasp at the happy one, because there's enough sadness already.

So my interpretation is that when Ennis turns from Jack and looks quietly troubled, he is thinking about the news he has to break. And his arm flung over Jack is a sign that they were intimate earlier, and that they still have a good physical relationship, whether Jack's awake or not.

But I can see how you could go the other way with these.

[Front-Ranger]

Excellent point, F-R.  I have that problem with the movie versus the story, too - I find it almost unbearable that *everyone* could be against that beautiful person to some extent or another.  Not unbelievable, actually, but unbearable.  And I think you've touched on why I was so devastated on my second viewing of the movie - much moreso than I was on my first.  I think a second viewing is necessary to really *see* Jack.  At least it was for me.  To see how almost angelic he is - how much he sacrifices, and how he finally makes the ultimate sacrifice for/because of his beloved. 

The way you so eloquently describe it, Barb, makes me think of the idea of the boddhisatva, the angel-like being who gives up everlasting nirvana in order to help other humans achieve enlightenment. Hopefully his sacrifice helped Ennis understand himself at last and led to the small epiphany that he had to go to Alma, Jr.'s wedding. Who knows, maybe he met somebody new at the wedding? One can dream.

[serious crayons]

Who knows, maybe he met somebody new at the wedding? One can dream.

Well, that would be better than nothing because Ennis would be less lonely. But the new guy wouldn't be Jack, so it would be kind of like Jack finding happiness with Randall rather than Ennis: Unsatisfying. (And I'm afraid I doubt Ennis would go for it anyway.)

[Brown Eyes]

Here's what I find ominous about this tent scene.  I think it's meant to be sweet and reassuring to see them spooning.  A sign of their continued comfort together, and probably a sign of Ennis's physical response to Jack's "sometimes I miss you so much..." comment.  But, I think the real sign of trouble is the lack of the moon.  Back on the old board there was a moonlight thread that had some really interesting insights... also the thread about Chinese mythology had some points on this too. 

The idea was that the full moon symbolizes true lovers coming together.  So, right before Jack and Ennis intiate physical contact in the first tent scene there's a deliberate cut to the night sky.  The full moon is shown emerging from behind the clouds.  Then again during the "prayer of thanks" talk the full moon is bright and obvious.  There are probably other examples... but these two will do.  In this last tent scene the sky is dark and cloudy.  On the other hand, their tent is blue here and blue seems to represent love in the movie.  So, it's nice that they're still snuggling in their blue cocoon.  I certainly don't think they're love is gone (quite the opposite, I think they love each other just as much... their situation has just worn them down and their love has evolved over such a long time). I think the loss of the moon is mainly a sign of the tragedies ahead.

[two_bloody_shirts]

If you're still wondering what the open matte frame looks like, check it here.     Not much different, but I do think that is part of the sleeping bag.

I still haven't caught that hand holding in the first tent scene!

You can see pretty good shots of it here and here.

[DeeDee]

I love this place.  Anything you ask for you get. 
I, too think that is the sleeping bag.  If you look at his shoulder, it seems his arm is by his own side.

[serious crayons]

Here's what I find ominous about this tent scene.  I think it's meant to be sweet and reassuring to see them spooning.  A sign of their continued comfort together, and probably a sign of Ennis's physical response to Jack's "sometimes I miss you so much..." comment.  But, I think the real sign of trouble is the lack of the moon.  Back on the old board there was a moonlight thread that had some really interesting insights... also the thread about Chinese mythology had some points on this too. 

The idea was that the full moon symbolizes true lovers coming together.  So, right before Jack and Ennis intiate physical contact in the first tent scene there's a deliberate cut to the night sky.  The full moon is shown emerging from behind the clouds.  Then again during the "prayer of thanks" talk the full moon is bright and obvious.  There are probably other examples... but these two will do.  In this last tent scene the sky is dark and cloudy.  On the other hand, their tent is blue here and blue seems to represent love in the movie.  So, it's nice that they're still snuggling in their blue cocoon.  I certainly don't think they're love is gone (quite the opposite, I think they love each other just as much... their situation has just worn them down and their love has evolved over such a long time). I think the loss of the moon is mainly a sign of the tragedies ahead.

Ooooooh!! Good one, Amanda! That sounds exactly right. The moon is such an obvious part of their togetherness from the start.

And I like your way of describing their feelings at this point -- not out of love, just worn down.

[Brown Eyes]

Awww, thanks friend!
 

[Ellemeno]

If you're still wondering what the open matte frame looks like, check it here.     Not much different, but I do think that is part of the sleeping bag.

I still haven't caught that hand holding in the first tent scene!

You can see pretty good shots of it here and here.

Oh Grace, thank you for these.  Okay, I almost believe. 

[Pipedream]

And who knows, we just see that they are wearing shirts.  Who knows what their pants are doing.  Maybe they fell asleep with Jack pulling Ennis close in.

Oh my God! I just checked that link to the picture and to me it looks like Jack's head is resting on a pair of jeans; does anybody agree?

  

[Sheyne]

Hrmmm... no, sorry, Anke. I will have to disagree there. It looks to me like a blanket.. but what... o what a fantasy that image would be if it were true, hunh?? 

[Pipedream]

Hrmmm... no, sorry, Anke. I will have to disagree there. It looks to me like a blanket.. but what... o what a fantasy that image would be if it were true, hunh?? 

Your're right. At second inspection it does indeed look more like a blanket. Sigh..... 

[serious crayons]

I think the loss of the moon is mainly a sign of the tragedies ahead.

And another ominous portent (though this doesn't involve the tent scene) is the talk about cold. Jack's, "Gonna snow tonight, for sure," is a reminder of the snow that spelled the end of their summer on Brokeback. Of course, we see the next morning that it hasn't snowed. So they're still together for now.  But then, Jack complains about the cold! So things aren't looking great for them.

"Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved."

[Brown Eyes]

Oooooo, good one about the snow, latjoreme!
 

[kirkmusic]

Here's what I find ominous about this tent scene.  I think it's meant to be sweet and reassuring to see them spooning.  A sign of their continued comfort together, and probably a sign of Ennis's physical response to Jack's "sometimes I miss you so much..." comment.  But, I think the real sign of trouble is the lack of the moon. 

The thing that struck me most about this shot was its brevity.  What is it, 3 seconds?  Their moments of happiness could be so perfect and they were so brief.  Never enough time, never enough.

[Brown Eyes]

Nice point kirkmusic.  It really is very brief... like a flash almost.

[Front-Ranger]

Yes, and this topic was like a flash too!!