Author Topic: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?  (Read 86931 times)

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #130 on: March 04, 2007, 02:53:24 am »
(In re: My Fair Lady): In the song "Without you" she definitely winds up "So go back in your shell, I can do bloody well without you". Julie Andrews sings it on the record. "Bloomin' well" wouldn't cut across the footlights nearly so well.

"Ah, yes, I remember it well." Ooops! Wrong musical. ...  ;D
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Offline Tommydreamer

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #131 on: March 04, 2007, 05:13:04 pm »
Shuggy,

Thanks for the in-depth answer.

Tommy

Offline lachlan

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #132 on: March 06, 2007, 06:53:51 am »
Hey,  Shuggy!  I was going to explain the origin of the word "bugger" and about the Bogomils - but you just beat me to it.  An alternative name for Bogomil is "Babun" and it is found in many placenames.  There were many sects within the Eastern Orthodox faith which regarded "buggery" as acceptible on the grounds that it didn't result in children,  which would destract a monk's attention from his spiritual or communal duties.   Stories of this concept filtered to the west at the time when Bulgaria was the largest and most stable Orthodox state and when the Bogomil cult was at its height.
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Offline Shuggy

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #133 on: March 06, 2007, 04:47:42 pm »
Hey,  Shuggy!  I was going to explain the origin of the word "bugger" and about the Bogomils - but you just beat me to it.  An alternative name for Bogomil is "Babun" and it is found in many placenames.  There were many sects within the Eastern Orthodox faith which regarded "buggery" as acceptible on the grounds that it didn't result in children,  which would destract a monk's attention from his spiritual or communal duties.   Stories of this concept filtered to the west at the time when Bulgaria was the largest and most stable Orthodox state and when the Bogomil cult was at its height.
That's interesting but "acceptable" sounds a little far-fetched. Are you sure that's not just what their enemies said? Also, we're talking about a long time ago, so accuracy will be hard to come by now.

Offline lachlan

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #134 on: March 07, 2007, 07:32:41 am »
No indeed! At the time of the Russian Revolution, during WWI, there were still monastic communities in Russia and even in Canada in which it was openly acknowledged that monks had same-sex liaisons; sometimes as part of a ritual. I was fortunate to have access to records and descriptions of this in Russia and have heard more about thiese "cults" (?) from Orthodox historians who were not condemnatory. I've also seen an English-language anthology in the university library which discusses the phenomenon in a chapter on Russia; I'll try to relocate it this week and I'll post the title if I can.
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Offline lachlan

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #135 on: March 08, 2007, 09:28:05 am »
"Hidden From History: Reclaiming the Gay and Lesbian Past" Edited by Duberman, Vicinus and Chauncey, Penguin Books 1989 (USA) and 1991 (UK). Anthology. In the chapter on Russia's Gay Literature and Culture at the time of the revolution, by Simon Karlinsky, there is mention (pages 349 - 350) of the peasant religious sects in the north of Russia and along the Volga River: "Two of these sects, Khlysty and Skoptsy, had recognisable homosexual, bisexual and sadomasochistic traits in their folklore and rituals." These could possibly have descended from pre-Christian sects, particularly considering that the regions in question were largely Finnic (Mordvin, Cheremis, etc) in their language and culture until recently. But I have heard of other examples in Russia and the Russian communities in Canada from sources that were not condemnatory. In the case of the Bogomils, I have spent much of the past 40 years in their heartland and have been made to understand that the derivation of the word "Bugger" from their customs was justified. Today, the descendents of the Bogomils are primarily nominal Muslims (Pomaks). But my experiences among them (and I have many Pomak friends still today, including one I just received an email from) has involved plenty of drinking and wild parties not associated with typical Muslim society. I have often been told that they are aware of their ancestors' open sexuality and its place within the former Bogomil ritual. The Western condemnation of sexual relations betwen men (women were largely ignored in these injunctions) stems primarily from St Augustine's interpretations of Christianity. His influence didn't reach the Eastern Orthodox hierarchy until much later and then only within those patriarchates which consciously strove to westernise. So, maybe there's some substance in the source of the word "Bugger" from "Bulgar". And (just to go on and on and... ) the people who inhabited the middle Volga region were also known as "Bulgars" (cognative with "Volga") in the Middle Ages.
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Offline Shuggy

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #136 on: March 08, 2007, 04:20:12 pm »
Thank you very much, that's very interesting. I have Duberman's "About Time" and I have corresponded with Simon Karlinsky about Tchaikovsky. I put Karlinsky's gay interpretation of Tchaikovsky's 6th (Pathetique/Passionate) sympony published in Christopher Street to the music and it was broadcast on the This Way Out network. In brief, there is an oral tradition passing down to Karlinsky that the secret programme of the symphony is about gay love, the romantic theme in the first movement is for a man, the "struggling" themes in that movement represent homophobia, and the sad final movement is an elegy for various of Tchaikovsky's lovers. The limping "waltz" in 5/4 time and the very un-military march, using the tonic-subdominant interplay instead of the conventional tonic-dominant, can also be interpreted as referring to gay people "marching to a different drummer". 

Offline loneleeb3

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #137 on: April 26, 2007, 10:56:49 am »
Just saw that this was the focus thread so i started reading it.
Very interesting. I don't know much about the 60's other than what i have read. I was born in 66.
I remember some things. I was born to a poor Un-Wed teenage mother in the rural south. Hell, we were hillbillys and we were outcasts. Young un-married women just didn't get pregnant unless they were white trash you know whats! So, that is how we were precieved n our small town. She was the whore of Babylon and i was her bastard child. But, we escaped when I was 3 so all I know about that is what mamma has told me.
When she started dating the man I would come to call my father, we spent a lot of time on the VA Tech campus.
i can remember the hippies and them telling me to flash a peace signs to the cops. I remember the moon landing on our old black and white tv in 69.
As far as the homosexuality thing goes, I didn't know anything about that until the late 70's.
I knew I was different from the time I was about 4 or 5.
I remember my mom had the village people album when I was about 10 or 11. I fell in love with the hairy chested leather guy. When I was in the 6th grade is when i first heard the word fag. I had no idea what it meant. Some dumb red-neck called me that and everyone laughed. When I found out I was mortified. How could anyone have known. Well, now that I knew there was a word for it and it was a bad word i knew I didn't want to be that.
Thus began the construction of the closet. As thears progressed and AIDS was all over the place I really didn't want to begay. Being raised in Church I learned that AIDS was the reaping of what the "Homa Sexshuls" have sown!
It's still like that here. In Atlanta there is Mid-town, Virginia-Highlands, Buckhead, Grant Park and Ansley Park. These are all places within the city that gay people are known to live and frequent. But, outside the city in Suburbia there is no place. Once you get outside the city and the further out you go it's like going back in time in regards to attitudes about homosexuality. It's hard all over i'm sure but here in the buckle of the bible belt it can be overwhelming.
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Offline Shuggy

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #138 on: April 26, 2007, 06:08:04 pm »
I remember the moon landing on our old black and white tv in 69.
So did you get a colour TV after that?  :laugh:

Seriously, though, sad story. Hope it's worked out OK.

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #139 on: April 26, 2007, 06:23:42 pm »
The Penguin script of the show says "bloomin' arse" but I was told that she said "bloody" on stage. In the song "Without you" she definitely winds up "So go back in your shell, I can do bloody well without you". Julie Andrews sings it on the record. "Bloomin' well" wouldn't cut across the footlights nearly so well.
In the film adaptation, in the Ascot scene, Audrey Hepburn as Eliza cries out "Move your bloomin' arse!" Seems like it would have been a little shocking for 1964.