Author Topic: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain  (Read 110524 times)

Offline Front-Ranger

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Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« on: February 14, 2007, 09:05:10 pm »
For our next book discussion, here's a novel (he,he) idea. Let's discuss Brokeback Mountain! This was first published in October, 1997, in The New Yorker Magazine, as a story. The author is Annie Proulx.

It begins with a prologue which, for some reason, was left off of the story as published in The New Yorker. Annie Proulx said that it was left off by mistake. The first two sentences:

Ennis del Mar wakes before five, wind rocking the trailer, hissing in around the aluminum door and window frames. The shirts hanging on a nail shudder slightly in the draft.

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2007, 09:20:16 pm »
From the story's prologue:

[Ennis] gets up, scratching the grey wedge of belly and pubic hair, shuffles to the gas burner, pours leftover coffee in a chipped enamel pan; the flame swathes it in blue. He turns on the tap and urinates in the sink, pulls on his shirt and jeans, his worn boots, stamping the heels against the floor to get them full on.

This starts the story out on a depressing note. Ennis is a washed up guy who shuffles, settles for warmed over leftover coffee, pees in the sink, and hurriedly pulls on worn boots. The only thing that stands out here is the flame that swathes the coffee in its blue flame. Blue is a reminder of Jack, and the flame tells us that Ennis still carries the torch for Jack after all these years.
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Offline fernly

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2007, 09:50:45 pm »
The word swathe has some interesting multiple meanings: to wrap, to bandage, to enfold, to constrict. All of which could be applied to the effects on Ennis of the torch (of love, of faithfulness) he carries for Jack.
There's also a visual rhyme that Casey identified at Lightning Flat. The five-pointed star shaped object in the barn we see as Ennis goes up to the house, is a part of swather - a machine that reaps ripe grain and lays it flat in windrows.
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2007, 10:15:53 pm »
The only thing that stands out here is the flame that swathes the coffee in its blue flame. Blue is a reminder of Jack, and the flame tells us that Ennis still carries the torch for Jack after all these years.

Is it? The flame a reminder of Jack, I mean? Or is that "reading back" into the story from the film? Just wonderin'. ...  ::)
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2007, 10:22:53 pm »
Ha! I love ya Jeff, you're always keepin me honest! Yes, Jack is associated with the color blue in the story as in the movie. A couple of examples: Jack takes into his coat a little blue heeler runt, because "Jack loved a little dog." Later, Ennis avoids looking at Jack's jaw, bruised blue from Ennis's dirty punch on their last day on the mountain.

More? Help me out here, everyone!!

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2007, 10:32:19 pm »
Okay, there's the line, "...but the boneless blue was so deep, said Jack, that he might drown looking up."

 :'(
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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2007, 10:44:38 pm »
Lureen thought Jack's favourite place, Brokeback Mountain, was where "bluebirds sing and there's a whiskey spring." In Jack's closet are two pairs of blue jeans, crease ironed (ouch!), and folded over a metal hanger. What's interesting is that there's a photo of a movie star on his wall, but all the blue ink is gone, "the skin tone gone magenta." All the blue has drained away. Where are the colors? They live on in Ennis's dreams, "lurid colors that gave the dreams the flavor of comic obscenity."

What? We're at the end of the story already! Jeff, you trickster!!



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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2007, 10:52:51 pm »
I always liked the line about Jack tucking the puppy in his coat "for he loved a little dog." That line always just struck me somehow. I guess maybe that qualifies as one of those "offhand revelations" that "hit hard," hunh?  :)
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2007, 12:09:50 pm »
The word swathe has some interesting multiple meanings: to wrap, to bandage, to enfold, to constrict. All of which could be applied to the effects on Ennis of the torch (of love, of faithfulness) he carries for Jack.
There's also a visual rhyme that Casey identified at Lightning Flat. The five-pointed star shaped object in the barn we see as Ennis goes up to the house, is a part of swather - a machine that reaps ripe grain and lays it flat in windrows.

Fernly, that's very perceptive. Farm machinery plays an interesting role in this story. In addition to the swather, a baler also plays a role--that's a machine that ties wire around hay bales. And there's also the big, big farm equipment that Jack's father-in-law sells.

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2007, 12:34:42 am »
I'm struck by the many times that the term grey is used in connection with Ennis. In the prologue (see above) and also during the lake scene: "Ennis stood as if heart-shot, face grey and deep-lined, grimacing, eyes screwed shut, fists clenched, legs caving, hit the ground on his knees."

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Offline Fran

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2007, 11:22:23 pm »
Speaking of grey:

"On the third morning there were the clouds Ennis had expected, a grey racer out of the west, a bar of darkness driving wind before it and small flakes." 

(This is just before the "putting the blocks to" conversation.)

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2007, 04:26:18 pm »
It's wonderful to discuss the story with people who know it so intimately!!

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2007, 12:46:36 am »
Extending the greyness a little more--Aguirre's hair was the color of ash. This makes me wonder, is Aguirre related to Ennis at all? Is he what Ennis would become in his later years?
« Last Edit: January 09, 2009, 01:30:46 pm by Front-Ranger »
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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2007, 04:06:42 pm »
I got caught up in two detours: a discussion of the colors blue and grey, and then an Oscar Nite viewing of the movie in Bay City, Michigan!!

Let's see, where were we. Oh yes, on the fourth sentence of the story, still in the prologue. Actually, what torqued me back to thinking about this story was RodneyFL's eloquent reading of it on Brokeback Mountain Radio last THursday. I was struck by how often the word trailer appears in the prologue. There are two: the trailer that Ennis lives in (altho he's about to leave it) and the horse trailer with which he's going to transport his horses to a new home, or more likely to his married daughter's home. Then, there's the ever present wind. The wind, as Jack's memory, is always with Ennis. There are metallic things, not only the trailers, but the keys that drop into Ennis's hand, with a jingle jangle morning sound (nod to Bob Dylan).

McMurtry/Ossana picked up on the significance of the trailer, and added a trailer shot at the end of the movie. Since there was no prologue in the movie, they added an epilogue instead.
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Offline Ellemeno

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #14 on: March 21, 2007, 03:55:25 pm »

There are metallic things, not only the trailers, but the keys that drop into Ennis's hand, with a jingle jangle morning sound (nod to Bob Dylan).


If only Ennis had chosen the rest of the song's phrase:

"In the jingle jangle morning, I'll come following you."

:(

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #15 on: March 21, 2007, 04:32:20 pm »
Yes that's sad...but at least thousands of viewers did!!
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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #16 on: April 12, 2007, 10:25:13 am »
More about the prologue:

Did you know that you can HEAR the prologue being read by Rodney Giles, master Brokeback storyteller!!? Go right here:

http://brokeback2007.com/events/reading.html

Rodney is reading the ENTIRE story in May at the Brokeback BBQ 2007!!

Also, the ABCz Playerz are in the process of devoting a round or two in the ABC Game to the prologue!!

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #17 on: April 15, 2007, 10:11:37 am »
The prologue of the story is very interesting for many reasons. It is like a story within a story. It tells us in a microcosm what we are about to see expanded. It prepares us to read the rest of the story attuned to the clues we will find. One of the interesting things about the story is that it is italicized. Why? Well, it may be as simple as a desire to set off the words in the prologue from the rest of the story. But, it may not be as simple as that. You can never tell with Annie Proulx. She is a sly one.

Just for the sake of curiousity, let's go on and look at some of the phrases in the story that are italicized.

But, before we do, I would also like to point out that these phrases are ALL CAPS in the Story to Screenplay book. So, in this next part, I'm going to be talking about The New Yorker version of the story, because all caps hurt my eyes.  ::)

Join in everybody!!


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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #18 on: April 15, 2007, 11:02:26 am »
When Aguirre starts to talk in the story, the italicized words start to appear. (BTW, it's interesting that two Jehovah-type figures appear in the story, one at the beginning--Aguirre--and one at the end--John C. Twist, Jack's dad, intoning their pronouncements)

He says: “Tomorrow morning we’ll truck you up the jump-off.” Pair a deuces goin nowhere.

The first two words, tomorrow morning, are italicized. Why? I don't know, but I immediately thought of the other place where the word tomorrow appears. It is the last word that Jack ever hears from Ennis.

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #19 on: April 15, 2007, 12:23:53 pm »
Here's another thing Aguirre says in his instructions, with italicized words:

“…but the herder”—pointing at Jack with a chop of his hand—“pitch a pup tent on the Q.T. with the sheep, out a sight, and he’s goin a sleep there.”

With it being Easter just recently, I had a different reaction to this pronouncement than I usually do. For one thing, I find it heartbreaking because as we will see later, Jack did end up "sleeping" (dying) and with the sheep, which I fondly think of as us, the readers of the story and his brothers in spirit.

'Nother thing. That Aguirre is such an Assertive guy--not only does he get the lion's share of the italicized words, but he actually chops with his hand. I wince whenever a chop is directed at Jack and, in the movie, Jack is sitting by the campfire with the ax handle appearing right out of his head!! Ouch! With this kind of writing, it's a wonder that we are surprised by the ending of the story but we are. I still remember the shock, the first time I read it back almost ten years ago...
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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #20 on: April 15, 2007, 12:35:09 pm »
This is a discussion of the story, not the movie, but here is the scene I was referring to:



I could probably write 3,000 words about this picture...in addition to the ax handle, notice the sharpened end of the iron stake and where it is pointing. There is another thing pointing at Jack. In the foreground, out of focus, is an object, and I think it is the scabbard for the knife. There is a bucket near Jack and a coffeepot near Ennis. Jack is holding the whiskey bottle, and we know that whiskey means water of life. Behind Ennis is the elk, crucified on a rack, between them is the saddle, and behind Jack is a horse's rump LOL! All of these are powerful symbols!!


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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #21 on: April 15, 2007, 01:27:37 pm »
Jeez, I forgot the most important thing! In between Ennis and Jack. Do you see it??

"...the can of beans with the spoon handle jutting out and balanced on a log was there as well, in a cartoon shape and lurid colors that gave the dreams a flavor of comic obscenity. The spoon handle was the kind that could be used as a tire iron."

 :'(

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #22 on: April 15, 2007, 04:18:19 pm »
Back to a discussion of italicized words in the story. Here is the most famous one, probably.

Quote
They went at it in silence except for a few sharp intakes of breath and Jack’s choked “Gun’s goin off. . .”

What these three little words tell me is that Jack is not a virgin. You may disagree, but the fact that he tells Ennis when he is going to come shows some experience. Otherwise, how would Ennis know? It's almost like Jack is keeping Ennis's hand there in a virtual way.

AP manages to bring into this crucial turning point in the story a mention of the gun that is so powerful a symbol of their relationship and the transformative effect of love. Ironically, she manages to make the gun, normally a weapon and a negative symbol, into a symbol of the life force and spirit. The fact that Jack says "Gun's goin off" is a self-forecast of his tragic end, as well.

The sentence also manages to portend Jack's death again with the words "sharp" and "choked." Sometimes sex is called "a little death" and it is portrayed that way in the story. It is the death of Ennis and Jack's autonomy as individuals and the birth of their union together.

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #23 on: April 15, 2007, 05:10:44 pm »
I'm going to be talking about The New Yorker version of the story, because all caps hurt my eyes.

There is one word in The New Yorker version of the story that is all caps. I can't say it here, not now, not today. Perhaps tomorrow.

But it makes me think of the book that EDelMar bought me from the TenSleep Library. It was Telegraph Days by Larry McMurtry. It's a good book and an easy read. Across the spine (ouch!) is a sticker with a word stamped on it all caps in red. It says DISCARDED. 

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #24 on: April 15, 2007, 09:50:48 pm »
Just hit the reply button and type in any old thing you want! Please!
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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #25 on: April 20, 2007, 01:36:45 am »
Don't mind if I do, Front-Ranger, and thank yew for the invite!

I like to just open the story to any random place and start reading. Here is where I opened it last nite:

"In May of 1983 they spent a few cold days at a series of little icebound, no-name lakes, then worked across into the Hail Strew River drainage. Going up, the day was fine, but the trail deep-drifted and slopping wet at the margins. They left it to wind through a slashy cut, leading the horses through brittle branch wood., Jack lifting his head in the heated noon to take the air scented with resinous lodgepole, the dry needle duff and hot rock, bitter juniper crushed beneath the horses' hooves."

Once again, just like the prologue, we see laid out before us, a microcosm of their story, retold in metaphor. May of 1983--isn't that exactly 20 years from the date they met? No-name lakes--their namers just stopped at Ennis??  ;) The hailstorm that mixed up the sheep and made life all confused. The trail of their life, or of their relationship, that was squishy around the edges, always, and disappeared completely sometimes in deep drifts. Through all the difficulty, Jack kept a calm center, centered through his breathing, living in the moment, while Ennis:

"Ennis, weather-eyed, looked west for the heated cumulus that might come up on such a day, but the boneless blue was so deep, said Jack, that he might drown looking up."

Ennis is always anticipating trouble but Jack exists in the present while, Christ-like, predicting his own demise.
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Offline loneleeb3

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #26 on: April 20, 2007, 12:03:13 pm »
Well, I came to discuss but apparently I need to read the story a bit more.
Y'all are finding a lot of deep meaning that I have over looked.
I devoured the story in about 1/2 an hour so I should probably read it again and savor it more.
It's so different than the movie. I think in the book Ennis is a bit more tender.
Still though, it's just as sad if not more so. Seeing Ennis as we do at the begining is painful.
You just want to grab him and say "Come on cowboy, just come stay at my house and quit bein lonely. You deserve more".
One thing I noticed in the book that I didn't in the movie, it seems as if they were on the run in the book. The way Annie talks of them riding the different ranges and never going back to Brokeback. In the movie I thought that was were they always went.
In the book it was like they were running away from the one place thatthey were truly happy. Maybe thats the obvious point but thats how I sees it.
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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #27 on: April 20, 2007, 05:40:24 pm »
I agree with you, Lee. That's one reason the lake scene is so powerful. It's the trailhead scene in the story.

"Tell you what, we could a had a good life together, a fuckin real good life. You wouldn't do it, Ennis, so what we got now is Brokeback Mountain. Everything built on that. It's all we got, boy, fuckin all, so I hope you know that if you don't never know the rest."

Also here is an example of the Wyoming double negative that adds up to a negative. I think it musta started in Wyoming, or somewhere in the bowels of America, though I'm not a linguist by any means. It is a corollary to the double positive (Alma's "sure enough") that adds up to a negative.


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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #28 on: April 20, 2007, 06:17:32 pm »
You may disagree, but the fact that he tells Ennis when he is going to come shows some experience.
FRiend, I've usually read that line also as indicative of Jack's moment of orgasm, but I do think it is possible that he might be referring to sensing Ennis coming inside of him. It is much less plausible that both boys are coming at the same time.

At any rate, I too also have the sense that Jack has had some experience of sex before meeting Ennis, and this line is one of the factors for feeling this way. (Incidentally, I also have always had the feeling that Jack is slightly younger than Ennis, despite his greater experience, though I'm not sure I can point to any specific clues to support this view.)

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #29 on: April 20, 2007, 06:48:31 pm »
It is much less plausible that both boys are coming at the same time.
What? Don't burst my bubble like that!!
Quote
At any rate, I too also have the sense that Jack has had some experience of sex before meeting Ennis, and this line is one of the factors for feeling this way. (Incidentally, I also have always had the feeling that Jack is slightly younger than Ennis, despite his greater experience, though I'm not sure I can point to any specific clues to support this view.)
I agree with you. Figuratively, if not literally, Ennis was always old, while Jack is forever young.

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #30 on: April 20, 2007, 10:23:43 pm »
Thank you, FRiend, for inviting me to this discussion.  Some really interesting and deep points being pondered here.  RE the prologue, the entire first paragraph describes Ennis' abject poverty and cause for being completely destitute and hopeless until the final sentence, which completely explains why Ennis is able to live in that condition:  "And yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream."  In the second paragraph Ennis savors the dream in "panels" allowing himself prolonged pleasure at the memory ("it might stoke the day").  And Jack being in Ennis' dreams is the binding factor that ties the prologue to the end of the story, thus creating a memoir.

Interesting notion about the "climax" in the tent, and of course Jack would have been been able to tell that Ennis was climaxing -- take it from an experienced receiver!  It would have been the stuff true porno is made if they had climaxed simultaneously.  Suffice it to say, they both experienced a life-changing event in that moment.  Sheep be damned!

Let me throw something in -- relating to the reunion in the motel.  Jack's comment about Ennis' years of being on horseback makes sex so G.D. good.  I started pondering that the other day.  Just exactly why does horseback experience makes sex so wonderful?  What does one gain through years of experience on horseback but powerful thigh and butt muscles?  Thigh muscles are wonderful to look at and caress, but they're not terribly useful during sex.  However, butt muscles are quite useful during sex, and the ability to match movement with one's posterior as well as clinch in appropriate rhythm makes the act quite memorable for both participants.  After contemplating all these points, this seems like evidence to me that Ennis and Jack freely exchanged "roles" when they were "coupling."  I realize that the only graphic evidence we have is from the tent and the roles that each assumed, but after that first time, Ennis and Jack couldn't get enough of each other, nearly to the abandonment of their duties with the sheep.  To me that says, "variety."  I believe it might be possible that they took turns in the motel -- after all, they went at it from late in the afternoon and were there the entire night.  Any thoughts?

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #31 on: April 21, 2007, 01:37:54 am »
Wow, Rodney, you go full throttle, whether fence mending, money spending, or book discussin!! First of all, I was rereading the story while stuck at an airport tonite, and there's no mention of simultaneous climax in the first tent scene, other than that the description is very short. I think we can safely assume that, Jack and Ennis both being red-blooded 19 year olds, the event was rather short in duration. It still seems to me, though, that when Jack says "Gun's goin off" he was talking about his own gun, not Ennis's. Talkative as he was, I don't think he would be interrupting the, er, flow of events by giving a play-by-play of the action.

How horseback riding improves sex has been the subject of many a debate and I'm glad to see you weighing in on the subject since that happens to be my point of view too, but hell, what do I know about it (except for being a recipient one hunderd percent--in recent years anyway). We'll see what Jeff Wrangler thinks of your statement! He prefers the thighmaster theory while you and I are in the buns of steel camp!!

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Offline Vermont Sunset

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #32 on: April 22, 2007, 03:08:14 pm »
Ok this is something I've been working oin concerning the high time supper. I'll throw it out there, then comment on everyone else's great points. :)

The high-time supper was a pivotal event in Jack and Ennis’s’ blossoming relationship. By observing the topics they chose to discuss and their subtle actions it is clear that by the end of the evening the two men are in love and deeply attracted to each other.

The setting for this scene is the first night after Ennis’s had taken over for Jack as the herder. ( this selfless gesture to assuage his bitchin’ friend was surely a sign that he cared for him) He had been away all day, not returning for breakfast, instead waiting until evening. The prelude to the meal is fraught with sexual tension and excitement as Ennis’s talks about the huge balls of the coyote he shot and Jack watches him strip and wash, noticing that he wore no drawers or socks, no doubt getting his teenage male mind going into overdrive. And tell me Ennis wasn’t at least subconsciously aware of the effect his nakedness might have on Jack.   ;)

And the setting for the meal around the campfire was so beautifully described by AP. Several things you notice. They are both sitting against the same log and able to swap a bottle. So clearly they were close to each other. Maybe their bodies just touched subtly, an arm, a leg, just enough for that electricity to flow The getting up to piss scene is described with a detail that makes you understand what was going on. “..firelight throwing a sparkle in the arched stream,.” demonstrated they were not turning their backs to the fire or moving into the darkness. They were simply standing and peeing facing the fire, probably just off the flames, turned just slightly, showing off for each other. Then they kept tossing sticks on the fire to keep the talk going. They did not want this time to end, for Ennis to have to leave.

Then we go down the list of topics.

“Horses and rodeo.” Ennis loves horses, Jack the rodeo.

“Roughstock events” something they probably both had participated in.

“Wrecks and injuries sustained.” Typical teenage male discussion. But I wonder if “injuries" could also mean psychic injuries? When did Jack tell Ennis’s that horrific story of his father’s bathroom abuse?

“The submarine Thresher.” This to me is a critical topic and just appeared out of the blue in this list. For those of you not old enough to remember, the loss of the Thresher was a front page news for weeks. It took a while for it to sink in that the sub was lost, there was no hope for the crew, and they would not be recovered. I  was 12 at the time, just having reached puberty and absorbing the lessons that boys were supposed to be tough and not show emotion. I remember wondering for months how awful it must have been. Hoping they had died quickly but fearing they had suffered, that somehow they might still be alive, unable to be saved, suffering and desperate. Yet I could not share these fears with my peers. Yet AP chose to have Ennis and Jack discussing it. And “how it must have been in the last doomed minutes.” To me this shows there was a comfort level at expressing feelings of sadness and fear, being emotionally vulnerable, that went beyond just a “buddy” relationship.

"Dogs each had owned and known.” AP then goes right to a topic sure to involve expressions of love and affection that any animal lover can understand instantly. And some dogs you love so much, that remembering them invariably brings a tear to your eye.

“The draft” This one almost slips by. Talk about a serious topic effecting both young men. Ennis was probably going to avoid the draft in ‘63 by getting married and having a child. Jack was vulnerable. The war and opposition to it  really hadn’t heated to the fever pitch it reached a year or so later, yet the dangers of Viet Nam were still apparent. Again we have a sharing of fears, concerns, hopes.

Family discussion.. Obviously this must have been very interesting and involved sharing of fears and joys. The only true details we get are Annie’s recitation of Jack’s statements about his dad not helping him in his bull riding career and although bot delivered in a quote from Jack you can detect the bitterness and sadness “ ..kept his secrets to himself, never gave Jack a word of advice, never came once to see Jack ride...”

Then we have that delightful, almost cute little interplay between them, where Ennis expresses skepticism about bull riding saying the only kind of riding that interested him lasted longer than 8 seconds and had some point to it, an d Jack’s quick retort that “money” was a good point. And Ennis had to agree. No argument. Respect. Happiness for their companionship where none had been expected. (By the way I am sure you agree the way this particular interchange between Jack and Ennis was handled in the movie was just terrific. I still smile whenever I think of it.)

Now let me comment on one very conspicuous absence of a topic. Their girlfriends. Most young men feel it necessary to talk of their "conquests" to prove their virility and masculinity. Particularly with your buddies, you want to show you are the top stud. Not a mention here by Jack or Ennis. This absence  is not accidental in my opinion.

Ennis driven by his work responsibilities finally has to return. The wind is howling in his face, he’s drunk and yet he is so happy he could “paw the white out of the moon.” No need to elaborate on that sentiment.

I just want to comment on AP’s selection of the summer of ‘63. For many of  those who lived during that time, that was the last summer of innocence before the Kennedy assassination sent this country and the world veering off on a path from which I fear we may never recover. I was 12. It was the summer between elementary school and junior high school. I spent the entire time having carefree fun with my brother and our friends in our rickety above ground pool, during the day, enjoying cookouts under the stars at night. Right before the summer ended in late August, Martin Luther King Jr. delivered his “I Have a Dream” speech. It is hard to imagine how completely happy and optimistic I was. It was truly a halcyon summer that AP chose for Jack and Ennis.
 
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Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #33 on: April 22, 2007, 09:08:17 pm »
I really appreciate your thoughts here, VS. They are excellent. I especially appreciate the comments about the Thresher. Farm equipment appears throughout the story, it almost litters the pages of the story like it does the fields and yards of Wyoming...It is so intriguing that AP mentions the Thresher rather than some of the other momentous events that occurred around that time.

When I was in Canada a few days ago, I actually bought a book called Thresher, which talks about the growth of agriculture in Saskatchewan and the equipment used in the industry. It has many historic pictures. When I was looking at the pictures of threshers, they reminded me of things I'd seen around Riverton.

Wasn't the thresher in a way a harvestor of men? There were countless men gathered up and sent to war and their talents, sometimes their bodies, were harvested up for the cause.

Those are heartbreaking comments about JFK and the end of innocence, as well.
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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #34 on: April 22, 2007, 10:20:59 pm »
Love your observations about the Thresher.  I had never contemplated threshers beyond the submarine.  But the more you mention, the more appropros the use of that particular disaster from that era.  Let me add just one thing to your thresher comment -- the symbol of death is often called "The Grim Reaper" (again referential to some kind of farm equipment) . . .

Offline loneleeb3

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #35 on: April 22, 2007, 10:32:35 pm »
Wow VS,
That really adds a dimension to the story that I never would have known.
Thaks for sharing that! I think thats some important info.
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moremojo

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #36 on: April 23, 2007, 09:34:00 am »
Figuratively, if not literally, Ennis was always old, while Jack is forever young.
That's a wonderful way to put it!

Offline Vermont Sunset

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #37 on: April 23, 2007, 11:07:23 am »
FR and Rodney, your talk about the name "Thresher" has just really got me to thinking. Did you know the sub was named after a species of shark called the thresher? It gets its name for it's elongated scythe like tail fin. Talk about a grim reaper, huh? And just as a shark's victims end up in the belly of the beast, so too these poor men died in the belly of the Thresher.

http://new-brunswick.net/new-brunswick/sharks/species/thresher.html

It is amazing that this real life event, that occurred over 40 years ago could have been woven so seamlessly into the story by AP and resonate so perfectly with the themes of the story she was trying to develop.  The crew believed they were safe. Jack and Ennis "believed themselves invisible."  The crew and our boys were both in caught in an environment that eventually turned out to be deadly.
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Offline loneleeb3

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #38 on: April 23, 2007, 11:11:41 am »
Love your observations about the Thresher.  I had never contemplated threshers beyond the submarine.  But the more you mention, the more appropros the use of that particular disaster from that era.  Let me add just one thing to your thresher comment -- the symbol of death is often called "The Grim Reaper" (again referential to some kind of farm equipment) . . .
Another foreshadow of the impending death. If you pay attention there seems to be quite a few i'm finding out.
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Offline Vermont Sunset

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #39 on: April 23, 2007, 11:29:25 am »
Wow VS,
That really adds a dimension to the story that I never would have known.
Thaks for sharing that! I think thats some important info.


You are welcome. It is difficult to remember that we are all dealing with different time dimensions. Unless you are in your very late 40's or older, you would have no actual memories of 1963 and the history altering events that occurred.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2007, 12:24:15 pm by Vermont Sunset »
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Offline Vermont Sunset

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #40 on: April 24, 2007, 09:09:04 am »
Spoons dirty and otherwise. I’ve been giving a lot of thought to these references and in particular considering what others see. My emphasis is different than some, but I do perceive a convergence of imagery which I feel is lacking in other cases.

When analyzing a story, I always consider the first impressions of the reader: what he or she see perceives as the message of the author. Only later when you pour over the text again and again do other symbols and imagery reveal themselves. Some of these may have been intended by the author. Some may have in fact worked on the subconscious mind of the reader, when the story was first read. For some  these deep layers may have been instantly recognized on first reading. That is not how I operate. My operating principle is that the symbolism and imagery has to have a plausible connection to the theme and messages that the author is trying to convey.

There are two references to spoons . Both are recollections, and both  are connected in Ennis’s mind. The first reference occurs as Ennis is waiting for Jack to arrive for their Reunion. Here is the entire quote.


Quote
“Alma was saying something about taking his friend out to the Knife & Fork for supper instead of cooking it was so hot, if they could get a baby -sitter, but Ennis said more likely he’d just go out with Jack and get drunk. Jack was not a restaurant type, he said thinking of the dirty spoons sticking out of cans of cold beans balanced on the log.”

It is difficult to remember with accuracy what your first impressions were after you’ve read something several dozen times, but I’m fairly sure about mine initial impressions. My thoughts were of AP’s description of our boys: “rough-mannered.”  It was almost as if Ennis did not think Jack even knew how to act in a restaurant. Also the impression I had was that his memory of their time together was that of two teenaged boys not having to worry about manners, and just being kind of gross, but having the time of their lives. And getting drunk was the precursor to his first torrid sexual experience with Jack. I think Ennis was looking to satisfy that hunger, not have a nice meal.

Now looking for deeper layers here are my thoughts.  I have a dear friend, who is true feminist. She said that women civilized men, and made culture possible. You see hints of that here. Alma wants to get a baby sitter, a responsible thing to do, but it also reminds the reader that Ennis is a married man and father with responsibilities, not a kid anymore. The name of the restaurant is an interesting choice.“The Knife & Fork.” Those are the implements of civilized eating. Think of little boys, napkins neatly tucked under their chins being taught for the first time how to use a knife and fork. Then think of Ennis and Jack gnawing at the venison they held in their hands. And what is the first implement a child uses, the first one they can be trusted with? It is a spoon. So here yet again, AP alludes to their childhoods. Both Ennis and Jack had traumas in their youth which had contributed mightily to the stunting of their emotional growth. And in the DE we see each of them satisfying that “shared and sexless hunger.” In both of these men, there was a lack of emotional support so necessary for a young person to fully mature. So for Ennis, being with his lover, was also being with his bud, a bud that cared for and offered him emotional support. The two understood each other. They could be unworried about the constraints of civilized living and the need to use a knife and fork. He was not interested in seeing Jack eat with a knife and fork.  He may have been scalded by passion when he was with Jack, but he also felt as safe as he had ever felt in his life when they were alone together.

The next reference to spoons is in the concluding scene, as Jack is now appearing in his dreams.


Quote
“.... but the can of beans with the spoon handle jutting out and balanced on the log was there as well, in a cartoon shape and lurid colors that gave the dreams a flavor of comic obscenity. The spoon handle was the kind that could be used as a tire iron.”

There is so much here, but on first reading, in a very fragile emotional state, I just saw his wonderful memories of Jack morphing into a hideous nightmare.

Analyzing in depth, the vocabulary chosen is so intriguing. “Cartoon shapes” “lurid colors”  The combination “comic obscenity” grabs you.

Cartoon shapes in all likelihood means “elongated” or exaggerated. This would play right into the morphing into a tire iron.

Here are the definitions of “lurid”. I think in this context the third definition seems most appropriate.


1. Causing shock or horror; gruesome.
1. 2. Marked by sensationalism: a lurid account of the crime. See Synonyms at ghastly.
3. Glowing or shining with the glare of fire through a haze: lurid flames.
4. Sallow or pallid in color.

And of the four definitions of obscenity I think the fourth one, especially given the example used, is exactly what AP intended.

1. The state or quality of being obscene.
2. Indecency, lewdness, or offensiveness in behavior, expression, or appearance.
3. Something, such as a word, act, or expression, that is indecent or lewd.
4. Something that is offensive or repulsive to the senses: "What had once been a gentle hill covered with lush grass turned into a brown obscenity of bare earth and smoke" Tom Clancy.

I have heard that large spoon handles used in stirring pots of stew are often used as tire irons in Great Britain. That would fit perfectly here as the bean spoon grows grotesquely into a form not suitable for eating beans from a can, but for removing a tire rim, or crushing a skull.

Although I do not feel phallic references work for me with the spoon images, I do see that they could easily work for others and are not inconsistent with the messages that I see. In the first recollection the “dirty spoons” could be a reference to phalli and perhaps Ennis’s feeling at that point that what they were doing was wrong, hence the word “dirty.”  And certainly in the last passage the elongation of that spoon, could be viewed as an erecting penis, that leads to death by tire iron. But the absence of the word “dirty” I think would mean that Ennis is no longer conflicted about how he views the sex that Jack and he experienced. As I said, it’s not what I see, but I think it is consistent with the themes and messages of the story.


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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #41 on: April 24, 2007, 10:39:25 am »
We'll see what Jeff Wrangler thinks of your statement! He prefers the thighmaster theory while you and I are in the buns of steel camp!!

Somebody mention my name?  ;D

I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you. No offense, but after 16 months, even I'm tired of rehearsing and repeating my own understandings.

I do agree with Lee, however, that "Gun's goin' off" is an amusing, colloquial equivalent of the more prosaic "I'm cummin'!"  :)
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #42 on: April 24, 2007, 05:21:52 pm »
hehe, Jeff. Vermont Sunset, that was a very eloquent post. I'll never look at a spoon again the same way. It makes me think of this picture:



There's the BetterMost bean can in between 'em and it DOES have a certain je ne sais quois of comic obscenity!!

"chewing gum and duct tape"

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #43 on: April 24, 2007, 07:20:02 pm »
hehe, Jeff. Vermont Sunset, that was a very eloquent post. I'll never look at a spoon again the same way. It makes me think of this picture:



There's the BetterMost bean can in between 'em and it DOES have a certain je ne sais quois of comic obscenity!!



I have this photo in my collection of 8x10s. I just wish it didn't include the horse's you-know-what!  >:( :-\  ;D  :laugh:

I ought to ask the movie-symbolism people to discuss the symbolism of the ax handle apparently protruding from Jack's head, and the horse's posterior right, er, behind Jack. ...
« Last Edit: April 24, 2007, 09:22:35 pm by Jeff Wrangler »
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Offline Vermont Sunset

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #44 on: April 25, 2007, 08:50:45 am »
hehe, Jeff. Vermont Sunset, that was a very eloquent post. I'll never look at a spoon again the same way. It makes me think of this picture:



There's the BetterMost bean can in between 'em and it DOES have a certain je ne sais quois of comic obscenity!!



Thanks FR. Wow, never saw that still before with the "jutting" spoon handle!  Ain't nothin' obscene about our two guys or anything they chose to do as far as I'm concerned. Comical at times, yes, but never obscene.  ;)
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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #45 on: April 25, 2007, 03:28:23 pm »
Hmmm...I looked up obscenity and the first couple of definitions are clearly not applicable...repulsive, disgusting to the senses. But the third definition is designed to incite to lust. Maybe this is what Annie had in mind!!

And I have to admit that the placement of the can and the spoon sticking out of it, superimposed with Ennis behind, does incite one to lust!
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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #46 on: April 25, 2007, 04:05:03 pm »
My office copy of Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary (1991) gives the following for 'obscene':

1 : disgusting to the senses : REPULSIVE 2 : abhorrent to morality or virtue; specif : designed to incite to lust or depravity

It seems to me that the 'obscenity' that Proulx cites could be another window into Ennis's mind, in that it may suggest something of his feeling for Jack and/or their time on Brokeback, either as it was actually lived, or as he remembers these (specifically via his dreams). There could be lust here, but also perhaps a feeling of disgust or shame in himself, in Jack, or the two of them together. The lust and the shame could be mixed up all together (it is possible to feel ashamed about one's romantic/erotic feelings), and this might reflect Ennis's deep-seated internalized homophobia.

The 'cartoon shape', 'lurid colors', and 'comic obscenity' all lend a nightmare aura to the Jack-filled dreams that haunt Ennis in the end.


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Re: Why is it called Brokeback Mountain?
« Reply #47 on: April 29, 2007, 11:48:14 pm »
Why is the story called Brokeback Mountain when the real mountain is named Brokenback Mountain? There have been several theories about the title of the story. Here's one that I hope is new. The real Brokenback Mountain in north-central Wyoming has a name that is melodious and rhythmic, while the name Brokeback Mountain is plainer and harsher, more suited to Annie Proulx's writing style. But the main reason I think she changed the name is because Brokeback, like Mountain, has two syllables, not three, and almost everything in this story comes in twos, starting with Jack and Ennis.

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Offline loneleeb3

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Re: Why is it called Brokeback Mountain?
« Reply #48 on: April 30, 2007, 07:33:27 am »
Why is the story called Brokeback Mountain when the real mountain is named Brokenback Mountain? There have been several theories about the title of the story. Here's one that I hope is new. The real Brokenback Mountain in north-central Wyoming has a name that is melodious and rhythmic, while the name Brokeback Mountain is plainer and harsher, more suited to Annie Proulx's writing style. But the main reason I think she changed the name is because Brokeback, like Mountain, has two syllables, not three, and almost everything in this story comes in twos, starting with Jack and Ennis.
Makes sense to me! The book was much more harsh than the movie. More intense and.....I don't know, rough maybe. I don't know if thats the right word.
In the book, when Jack comes to visit after 4yrs, I reads like Ennis knows Alma saw them. Am I mis-reading that or is that correct?
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Why is it called Brokeback Mountain?
« Reply #49 on: April 30, 2007, 09:03:31 am »
In the book, when Jack comes to visit after 4yrs, I reads like Ennis knows Alma saw them. Am I mis-reading that or is that correct?


My understanding is also that in the story Ennis knows Alma saw them. Isn't there a line in there somewhere with Ennis telling Alma that he and Jack hadn't seen each other in four years, "as if it were an explanation" (or some such words)--which I've taken to mean a cock-and-bull explanation for why he was kissing Jack.

Maybe Annie deleted that "n" from "Brokenback" as part of a general kind of playing with Wyoming geography that she seems to have done--to avoid pinning the story too closely to an actual, identifiable mountain?

I'm reminded of how, in the story, Ennis tells Jack about his gut cramps and mentions that at first he thought they came from something he'd eaten at "that place in Dubois." I've interpreted that to mean they stopped off for something to eat somewhere in Dubois on the way back to Signal after they came down off Brokeback. But the real Dubois, Wyoming, is northwest of Riverton, practically across the state from the Big Horns and Ten Sleep. It would make no sense for them to have gone from Brokeback-Brokenback, in the Big Horns, to Ten Sleep-Signal, by way of Dubois. You'd probably have to go through Ten Sleep to get from Brokenback to Dubois.
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Offline ifyoucantfixit

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #50 on: April 30, 2007, 12:37:16 pm »
  This is my first read in this thread, i have read it all the way through this morning...I have read some very
interesting comments here.  Each of which is very plausible, and or feasible..I wonder how much of the
discussion is the real intent of Annie, or merely incidental..
   I myself have a few differing opinions also, but it is more interesting to see the thoughts and interpretations, that others have gotten, from the same material..
   There seems to be the undercurrant in the story of Jacks demise, however most of us are so shocked for whatever reason. I dont know if it is the timing, or the deluded thoughts.  Maybe we all want things to turn out well for them, so badly. We refuse to see the reality.  Not sure why the answer.  Maybe its because in the lake scene it appears to be Ennis that needs to be held and cared for.  It is the one place where he is the
one most vulnerable.  He had even been afraid, and reluctant, to tell Jack beforehand, that he wouldnt make it
to the next scheduled meeting.  I never understood that..He never seemed to be afraid to speak to Jack before.  Jack being the only person he felt free to talk about any thing with.

    



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Offline Shakesthecoffecan

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Re: Why is it called Brokeback Mountain?
« Reply #51 on: April 30, 2007, 03:58:08 pm »

In the book, when Jack comes to visit after 4yrs, I reads like Ennis knows Alma saw them. Am I mis-reading that or is that correct?


I got the impression that Alma did see them, but that they were on the landing, Jack having took the stairs two and two, and Ennis was glad it was dark on the landing so she could not see how messed up he was. I get the impression he did not know she had seen them.
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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #52 on: April 30, 2007, 04:26:01 pm »
She saw his straining shoulders as he was embracing Jack and that's all she needed to see.

When she answered, "Sure enough" Ennis knew that she knew.

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Offline loneleeb3

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #53 on: May 03, 2007, 07:40:15 am »
I don't know if this makes sense or not but here goes.
When reading the story, it seemes as if it was written in Black and White. I mean everything is so drab.
 The only time color is mentioned is blue and the sunrise. Otherwise it's grey and muted.
I don't know, it just struck me that the movie is just beautiful in it's use of color. Everything is so bright and vivd in colors I've never seen this side of dreaming and the book is almost devoid of any bright colors. I'm sure that was intentional on both parts.
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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #54 on: May 03, 2007, 10:45:37 pm »
That is an interesting insight, Lee. You are right that black, white and grey are mentioned prominently. For instance, in the third paragraph, Aguirre's ashtray was mentioned as well as his hair, the color of ash, while the window admitted a triangle of white light. On the mountain, the trees are massed in slabs of somber malachite. The sheep are the color of dirty laundry. In contrast, the dawn is described as orange and pale green (sounds strange, but I have seen dawns like that!) In fact, light and fire are often yellow...the boys sit in the yellow light of a kerosene lantern, while the flames of the campfire are described as yellow silk sashes.

The next day, the colors are enlivened...there is a green washcloth, copper jean rivets, and a lavender sky. And AP actually says that Ennis felt he could paw the white out of the moon! It's almost like that scene in the Wizard of Oz where everything turns from black & white to color!!

Throughout the days on the mountain and their descent, colors are mentioned, but there is a premonition in the worn paint brands on the sheep, the hailstorm, and the early arrival of the white snow. Not much color appears until the reunion, when a soiled orange chair is mentioned in the room at the Motel Siesta. Whites, blacks, and blues predominate, with red represented by the periodic mention of blood. The river is tea-colored and the willows are ochre-branched.

Suddenly, when Ennis finds the shirts, the color red is everywhere, not just used as punctuation as it was before (the ruddy chunks of light, the cherry cake). It was a "gushing nosebleed...when Jack...had slammed Ennis's nose hard with his knee. He had stanched the blood, which was everywhere, all over both of them, with his shirtsleeve, but the stanching hadn't held...." Yes, we know, Ennis's stanching of his breaking heart hadn't held, and he had lashed out in anger and wild despair, at the ministering angel that was Jack. Then, it's back to the browns and greys, the dirty horseblankets, the sopping coffee filter. But in Ennis's dreams, the colors are so bright, they are described as "lurid."
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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #55 on: May 03, 2007, 11:45:51 pm »
There was a phrase echoing in my haid all day today. It was "When they had it all before them." Where had I read or heard this? I was thinking, maybe On the Road? Or The Virginian? Perhaps some song by Bob Dylan? Finally, it hit me. The phrase was

"They were no longer young men with all of it before them."

But I was thinking of the complement to it, the first summer when Jack and Ennis met, and when they had it all before them.

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Offline loneleeb3

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #56 on: May 05, 2007, 04:03:58 pm »
That is an interesting insight, Lee. You are right that black, white and grey are mentioned prominently. For instance, in the third paragraph, Aguirre's ashtray was mentioned as well as his hair, the color of ash, while the window admitted a triangle of white light. On the mountain, the trees are massed in slabs of somber malachite. The sheep are the color of dirty laundry. In contrast, the dawn is described as orange and pale green (sounds strange, but I have seen dawns like that!) In fact, light and fire are often yellow...the boys sit in the yellow light of a kerosene lantern, while the flames of the campfire are described as yellow silk sashes.

The next day, the colors are enlivened...there is a green washcloth, copper jean rivets, and a lavender sky. And AP actually says that Ennis felt he could paw the white out of the moon! It's almost like that scene in the Wizard of Oz where everything turns from black & white to color!!

Throughout the days on the mountain and their descent, colors are mentioned, but there is a premonition in the worn paint brands on the sheep, the hailstorm, and the early arrival of the white snow. Not much color appears until the reunion, when a soiled orange chair is mentioned in the room at the Motel Siesta. Whites, blacks, and blues predominate, with red represented by the periodic mention of blood. The river is tea-colored and the willows are ochre-branched.

Suddenly, when Ennis finds the shirts, the color red is everywhere, not just used as punctuation as it was before (the ruddy chunks of light, the cherry cake). It was a "gushing nosebleed...when Jack...had slammed Ennis's nose hard with his knee. He had stanched the blood, which was everywhere, all over both of them, with his shirtsleeve, but the stanching hadn't held...." Yes, we know, Ennis's stanching of his breaking heart hadn't held, and he had lashed out in anger and wild despair, at the ministering angel that was Jack. Then, it's back to the browns and greys, the dirty horseblankets, the sopping coffee filter. But in Ennis's dreams, the colors are so bright, they are described as "lurid."

Your right!
It's like one of those photo's you see done where it's all in black and white except maybe the flowers are colored or a piece of clothing.
I think the use of color,or lack of, is an important part of the story.
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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #57 on: May 13, 2007, 11:15:16 pm »
I am so thrilled that this thread is being featured on our banner right now with a picture of the author Annie Proulx, who is the mother of all Brokies, on Mother's Day!!
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Offline loneleeb3

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #58 on: May 14, 2007, 01:21:32 pm »
I have a question. What is the Q.T.? Aguirre tells Jack to put his tent above the QT?
Also, What is the "welling Plain"?
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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #59 on: May 14, 2007, 01:24:05 pm »
I have a question. What is the Q.T.? Aguirre tells Jack to put his tent above the QT?
Also, What is the "welling Plain"?

I think he said to pitch his tent on the QT...meaning...on the sly, and out of sight of the rangers.

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #60 on: May 14, 2007, 01:38:10 pm »
Also, What is the "welling Plain"?

Lee, I think you meant "welling prairie." 

I think "welling" means flowing or spreading out, sort of like you'd only see prairie for miles and miles.

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #61 on: May 14, 2007, 01:42:32 pm »
Lee, I think you meant "welling prairie." 

I think "welling" means flowing or spreading out, sort of like you'd only see prairie for miles and miles.
Thats it!
Thank you! ;D
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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #62 on: May 14, 2007, 03:31:46 pm »
Hey guys, I don't remember the term/phrase "welling praririe" in the short story. Could someone cite the spot where it occurs? I do remember the use of "the grieving plain", which is how Ennis sees the land in which Jack's father will inter his son's ashes.

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #63 on: May 14, 2007, 03:38:43 pm »
"... a tiny fenced square on the welling prairie."

It's after Ennis leaves the Twist ranch.  He didn't want to think of Jack amongst the plastic flowers and such.

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #64 on: May 14, 2007, 05:27:51 pm »


    This entire section is only one paragraph.
   Bumping down the washboard road Ennis  passed the country cemetary fenced with sagging sheep wire, a tiny fenced square on the welling prairie, a few graves bright with plastic flowers, and didn't want to know Jack was going in there, to be buried on the grieving plain.



     Beautiful mind

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #65 on: May 14, 2007, 05:36:49 pm »
Thanks, guys! Interesting how "the grieving plain" really stood out for me in that paragraph, but "welling prairie" slipped my mind.

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #66 on: September 30, 2007, 01:20:44 pm »
This story discussion has a new home on the Open Forum. We are discussing distinctive phrases used in the story, and also the use of color in the story right now.
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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #67 on: October 10, 2007, 09:54:08 am »
I can't believe how often I use the phrase "rusty but still usable." In the story, this described another phrase "Time to hit the hay." And to tie it all together, LaShawn used the phrase "chewing gum and baling wire." But that last one wasn't in the book, in fact LaShawn wasn't in the book at all!!

But baling wire is used to bind hay in the process of harvesting it.

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #68 on: October 10, 2007, 10:00:15 am »
But that last one wasn't in the book, in fact LaShawn wasn't in the book at all!!
True, except if one counts Jack's reference to the ranch foreman's wife, much in the same way that Cassie can be retroactively inferred from Ennis's reference to the waitress(?) he's been putting the blocks on(?) [geez, it's been a while since I've read the story].

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #69 on: October 10, 2007, 10:12:54 am »
Sure e-nuff, Scott! Isn't it amazing how Osana/McMurtry breathed life into these fleeting references in the story??

Please join me in reading the story again in preparation for the 10-year-anniversary of the publication!!

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Offline loneleeb3

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #70 on: October 10, 2007, 10:17:04 am »
Sure e-nuff, Scott! Isn't it amazing how Osana/McMurtry breathed life into these fleeting references in the story??

Please join me in reading the story again in preparation for the 10-year-anniversary of the publication!!


I will!!
When exactly is the anniversary?
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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #71 on: October 10, 2007, 10:21:15 am »
When exactly is the anniversary?
The story was originally published (sans the italicized prologue, which was omitted due to editorial oversight) in the October 13, 1997 issue of The New Yorker.

Offline Shakesthecoffecan

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #72 on: October 10, 2007, 11:31:52 am »
My theory about that oversite came when I heard her speak at Davidson College last year, she said she had send the story to the publisher and suddenly realized the ending was not correct, she called them and read over the phone to them how it was supposed to end, had a time getting it fixed. It was going to end with "sometimes the sheets", but she added:

"There was some space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, but nothing could be done about it, and if you can't fix it you got to stand it."

Then the story came out starting with "They were raised on small poor ranches..." insted of "Ennis Delmar wakes before five...."
"It was only you in my life, and it will always be only you, Jack, I swear."

Offline loneleeb3

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #73 on: October 10, 2007, 11:34:45 am »
I just love the story.
It's a different feel than in the movie.
I think Ennis is a little more open.
In the SS I getthe feeling that things could have been different.
I don't get that in the movie till it's too late.
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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #74 on: October 10, 2007, 01:17:40 pm »
I agree, Lee; short-story Ennis seem much more self-aware (and is more articulate) at an earlier stage than his film counterpart. The theme of the story revolves around the society's homophobia, while the film pivots just as much around Ennis's internalized self-loathing.

At the same time, both Jack and Ennis are much less idealized in the story than they are in the film (this is especially true for Jack). Both men seem more selfish and self-serving in the story than how Ang presents them in the movie--and yet, the sympathetic reader feels no less love and concern for them in spite of this.

Offline ProwlAmongUs

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #75 on: October 24, 2007, 10:21:57 pm »
Love your observations about the Thresher.  I had never contemplated threshers beyond the submarine.  But the more you mention, the more appropros the use of that particular disaster from that era.  Let me add just one thing to your thresher comment -- the symbol of death is often called "The Grim Reaper" (again referential to some kind of farm equipment) . . .

You bring up some good points. As a farm boy (who listened endlessly to my dad and granddad) the analogy of reaping and threshing is ominous. A reaper was a machine that was used to cut grain, that is, to mow/cut it down. Later, technology expanded to include a "drop reaper" - a machine that combined the functions of cutting the grain and binding the bundles with twine/rope to be picked up later and taken to the "threshing machine." This is where the grain was separated from the hulls or chaff, literally by being pounded and pummeled. Of course, by 1963 all these functions were integrated into a "combine" - one machine that does it all from cutting to separating the grain. A variation of "thresh" is "thrash."  "Thrashed to within an inch of his life..."  For Jack, a gloomy instance of foreshadowing.
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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #76 on: November 17, 2007, 02:09:35 am »
Could Larry McMurtry have unwittingly inspired the characters of Jack Twist and Ennis Del Mar as well as some of the story of Brokeback Mountain?  In The Late Child, a novel of his published in 1995, there is a minor incident towards the end of the book in Chapter 14 that causes me to wonder.  Here are a few quotes, condensed from several pages:
 
(At the airport)  ".... noticed a young cowboy, sitting a few seats away.  The cowboy was short and skinny.  When she glanced at him she saw that he was bent over, with his face in his hands, crying.  His skinny shoulders were shaking, and his black cowboy hat had fallen off his head and was on the floor, by his boots.
 
.... All he had with him was a small duffel bag, with a pair of spurs dangling from the handle, and a rope.  His boots were dusty and his pants legs were a little too long--he had stepped on the cuffs and left them pretty frayed.  Since he had his face in his hands it was difficult to tell exactly how old he was, but he looked to be only in his late teens.
 
.... 'Can I help you, sir?' she asked, sitting down beside him.
 
The boy, his face wet with tears, looked up at her--his look was blank.
 
'Jody's dead,' the young man said simply, as if it should be obvious to any passerby why he was sitting in the Tulsa airport at midnight, crying.
 
'That old pickup of ours didn't have no seat belts on the driver's side,' he went on.  'Jody always drove like a bat out of hell even when there wasn't no hurry.  She missed a curve and flipped.  Got thrown clean out of the window and broke her neck.  Kilt instantly.  The kids weren't hurt, though.
 
... 'Jody was your wife?' (she) asked.
 
'Yep, only she ain't no more, she's dead, and I got two kids to raise and not a cent to my name.  I sure can't make enough calf roping to support two kids, so I guess that's the end of rodeoing
 

.... she said. 'I hope you don't mind if I sit with you for a while.'  'No, ma'am, I don't,' the boy said.  I'm Wesley Straw.  I come all the way up here from Lubbock and didn't win a cent.  I don't know how we'll even scrape up the money to bury Jody... my folks don't think I should have married Jody in the first place....
 
'Oh God, ma'am, I just can't believe she's dead,' Wesley said.  'All she was doing was driving home.  They estimate she was going better than ninety...
 
'Maybe you can get back to rodeoing a little later, Wesley," (she) said...
 
But Wesley Straw shook his head.  'I should have give it up already,' he said. 'It was just a dream I had, when I was growing up.  I wanted to be a world's champion cowboy so bad-- or at least to get to the national finals.  But I can't afford my own trailer, so when I enter a rodeo I have to borrow a horse to rope off of.  But that's no good.  I ain't familiar with the horse, and the horse ain't familiar with me  Sometimes I'll be riding a different roping horse every time I rope.  You don't get nowhere that way.  All the good ropers got their own trailers and their own horses.'
 
'It don't matter now,' he went on. 'Jody was getting tired of me going off and never bringing home no money.  I would have had to give up and go to work in the oil fields anyway, pretty soon.  God, I hate the thought of spending the rest of my life working in the stinking oilfields.'
 
'Wesley, I lost my daughter recently,' (she) said.
 
'Aw, ma'am, that's worse.' Wesley said, turning his anguished eyes to hers.  'Losing Jody is hell, but if I was to lose one of my girls I'd take a shotgun and blow my head off.'  On impulse he dug in his pocket and pulled out a sweat-stained walled and showed (her) small snapshots of his daughters, aged three and four.
 
Then he pulled out a picture of his wife.
 
'And this is Jody,' he said, offering (her) a picture of a thin-faced, pretty brunette.
 
... Just then Wesley Straw's flight was called.  He popped up and put his black hat back on his head--it looked much too large for his small head and thin neck.  He picked up his duffel bag, which made his spurs jingle a little.
 
... He gave (her) a little nod, and a grateful glance before getting in line to board the plane.  Then he dried his eyes on his shirtsleeve and straightened his black hat on his head.  There was something about his look that broke (her) heart.  He was only nineteen, he had said, and now he was flying off to try his best to be a brave cowboy and raise his little girls, letting go forever his dream of being a world's champion calf roper and getting to compete in the national finals rodeo; all because his wife was driving too fast and failed to make a curve.  Probably it had been hard for Wesley to keep up his hopes anyway, since he didn't even have enough money to own a trailer and didn't get to rope off his own horse.  But he had still been trying.... Now it was over.

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #77 on: November 21, 2007, 09:42:15 am »
The parallels are very eerie, Larry. Thanks for taking the time to type this all out! We know that AP is very well read, and, here's another anecdote, my friend bought me a copy of Telegraph Days from the discard bin at the Ten Sleep Library.
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Offline loneleeb3

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #78 on: November 21, 2007, 12:27:07 pm »
Quote
snapshots of his daughters, aged three and four.
 

Wonder if their names wer Jody Jr and Alma?
Thats just a little too much coincidence there.
I'm gonna have to read that book!
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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #79 on: November 22, 2007, 05:12:19 am »
Wonder if their names wer Jody Jr and Alma?
Thats just a little too much coincidence there.
I'm gonna have to read that book!
Alas, I found McMurtry's book, The Late Child, DREADFULLY BORING...  It's not about cowboyin' at all. Three sisters start off from Las Vegas on a journey that gets them involved with the Mafia in New Jersey.  It was all over the map.  I only read it by accident... then ran into the goodies about the cowboy. 

Check Amazon reviews...

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #80 on: March 08, 2008, 10:25:08 am »
You bring up some good points. As a farm boy (who listened endlessly to my dad and granddad) the analogy of reaping and threshing is ominous. A reaper was a machine that was used to cut grain, that is, to mow/cut it down. Later, technology expanded to include a "drop reaper" - a machine that combined the functions of cutting the grain and binding the bundles with twine/rope to be picked up later and taken to the "threshing machine." This is where the grain was separated from the hulls or chaff, literally by being pounded and pummeled. Of course, by 1963 all these functions were integrated into a "combine" - one machine that does it all from cutting to separating the grain. A variation of "thresh" is "thrash."  "Thrashed to within an inch of his life..."  For Jack, a gloomy instance of foreshadowing.

Yes, and Jack was the best combine salesman they had. He was the only combine salesman they had. (That's a line from the movie, not the book. Oh, how these things get tangled up!)
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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #81 on: August 22, 2008, 12:27:47 pm »
HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO ANNIE PROULX!!

A good reason to get out the story today or this weekend, and read it again...


Lately I'm thinking about the use of the word "pitch" in the story...

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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #82 on: August 22, 2008, 10:58:29 pm »
Lately I'm thinking about the use of the word "pitch" in the story...


This is a great topic Sister Mod!   The instance of this word that comes to my mind immediately is as a verb... in the sentence: " He wanted to be a sophomore, felt the word carried a kind of distinction, but the truck broke down short of it, pitching him directly into ranch work."

Now, looking at my dictionary (a leatherbound Webster's Ninth Collegiate Dictonary) it not only shows multiple definitions for the main word "pitch" (as a noun and a verb), but there are is almost 3/4 of a page full of words that contain the word "pitch" within them.  Some of the words listed that include the term "pitch" are: pitch-black, pitch-blende, pitch-dark, pitched battle, pitcher, pitcher plant, pitchfork, pitch in, pitchman, pitchout, pitch pine, pitch pipe, pitchstone, pitchwoman, and pitchy.

I'm going to highlight some of the definitions here that seem particularly interesting:

Here are some of the main noun definitions for the basic word "pitch".  My dictionary divides the noun section into two very distinct parts (interrupted by the section of definitions on the verb form... this is the first set of noun definitions):
1) a black or dark viscous substance obtained as a residue in the distillation of organic materials and esp. tars. (this is the very first definition of all that appear)
2) any of various various bituminous substances
etc.  several definitions along these lines

Here are some of the main verb definitions for "pitch":
1) to cover, smear or treat with or as with pitch
2)to erect and fix firmly in place
3) a) to throw usu. with a particular objective or toward a particular point {~ hay onto a wagon} (b) to throw {a baseball} to a batter (c) to toss so as to fall at or near a mark {a coin} (d) to put aside or discard by throwing
4) a) to cause to be at a particular level or of a particular quality. (b) to cause to be set at a particular angle
5) to utter glibly and insincerely
6) to use as a starting pitcher, to play as pitcher
7) to hit a golf ball in a high arc with backspin so that it rolls very little after striking the green

Here is a second, separate section of verb forms:
1) a) to fall precipitately or headlong :o It's almost like Annie was reading a dictionary when she was writing one particular BBM passage that we all know and love)
1) b) to have the bow of a ship alternately plunge precipitately and rise abruptly
1) c) to buck  :o
2) to encamp
3) to hit upon or happen upon something
4) to incline downward
5) to throw a ball to a batter

Here is the second section of noun forms:
1) the action of manner of pitching; esp. an up-and-down movement
2) slope (there are many subdefinitions of this)
3) top, zenith (archaic use)
4) a) the relative level, intensity, or extent of some quality or state. (b) the property of a sound and esp. a musical tone that is determined by the frequency of the waves producing it. (there is a lot more to this part of the definition)
5) a steep place
6) a playing field
7) an all-fours game in which the first card led is a trump. (  ??? I have no idea what that means!)
8) an often high pressure sales talk

etc., etc.

So, it seems that this word applies to tons of different themes, topics and concepts peppered throughout BBM in very many different contexts.  And, of course the term "to pitch" or "pitcher" also has a sexual slang meaning.

Definitely lots of food for thought!
:)

 
« Last Edit: August 23, 2008, 03:09:27 pm by atz75 »
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Offline Gabreya

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #83 on: August 22, 2008, 11:48:24 pm »
*Oh my.* :(

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #84 on: August 23, 2008, 09:41:31 am »
Wow, this is very thought-provoking! Amazing that one word can do all that work!

Thank you for your insights, dear friend! Do you suppose Diana and Larry were inspired by Annie's use of the word pitch to include the road-surfacing scene with the garrulous Timmy?

And, Gabryela, could you elaborate, please?

1) a black or dark viscous substance obtained as a residue in the distillation of organic materials and esp. tars. (this is the very first definition of all that appear)
2) any of various various bituminous substances
etc.  several definitions along these lines

Here are some of the main verb definitions for "pitch":
1) to cover, smear or treat with or as with pitch
2)to erect and fix firmly in place
"chewing gum and duct tape"

Offline optom3

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #85 on: August 23, 2008, 12:29:43 pm »
When I read the story for the 1st time, which I did before watching the film.Two sections tore me apart,and in fact left me gasping for breath, literally.
In fact as I think of them again I feel my chest tightening and throat constricting.
The first was. The whole dozy embrace section.

"Later, that dozy embrace solidified in his memory as the single moment of artless, charmed happiness,in their separate and difficult lives" I remember thinking just one single moment in all those years.How little true happiness either of them had in their lives.The s.s continues,
"Nothing marred it,even the knowledge that Ennis would not then embrace him face to face because he did not want to see nor feel that it was Jack he held"
That second sentence indicates just how very little it took to please Jack.How full of pathos those few words,Jack is  childlike in his simple needs.Like a baby who is soothed in their mothers' arms.
The whole scene actually reminds me of parent and child, as the parent stands gently rocking a troubled and unsettled infant to soothe it.Even down to the fact that Ennis "rocked a little in the sparklight and Jack leaned against the heartbeat ......... and standing, he fell into a sleep that was not sleep"
I can remember doing that so many times with my children, the rhythm of my heart beat soothing them and just humming away quietly.Ennis is even humming himself.
That whole section always invokes the same heart rending response in me.Ennis is the older, in terms of world weary, and battle worn, Jack is still the child with his youthful optimism who believes anything is possible.It is so analogous with the parent child scenario,with one vital and I think important difference.It is usually the parent who while rocking their child,  has all the hopes for the future.I n this case it is the child.ie Jack.
At that moment I remember clear as day having a horrible flashback to the prologue and knowing, this was all going to end badly.

The second part that tore me apart, was one single sentence in the final paragraph.
"And he would awake sometimes in grief,sometimes with the old sense of joy and release; the pillow sometimes wet,sometimes the sheet.
The thought of Ennis crying in his sleep, silently and the tears wetting the pillow is too much to bear.The enormous love that, he realises way too late and the subtle reference to a wet dream with the sheets sometimes wet.
This is a much gentler Proulx, who has previously talked of the sex between the two of them in much more raw and basic ways.Here it is just implied.
I could write pages on just that one sentence.Even the fact that in sleep,Ennis still has no respite.The thought that as he lies in bed in his sparse trailer he never knows if he will awaken having cried in his sleep, or if he will have had a glorious sexy dream of Jack, which as he wakes he is forced to confront the fact that it is just a dream and face the whole horror anew.
Combining that sentence with the prologue, which has Ennis feeling of being " suffused with pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dreams"
Then we read how if "he lets a panel of the dream slide forward....... it might stoke the day".........reminding him  " of the cold time on the mountain when they owned the world"
An ironic statement, when compared to the present where Ennis owns nothing, not even the meagre trailer.It also serves to remind us that Jack was always the dreamer, and yet now we have Ennis, with nothing left except his dreams.The major difference being that in life, Jack had dreams for their future,in death Ennis has only dreams of the past.The whole section further underlines how completely out of synch. they were with each other, a situation that never changes, even in death.

It does not matter how many times I read the s.s , those sections reduce me to tears.It is all there.The optimism of a youthful Jack, who believed no harm could come to him.The paranoia of Ennis who feels exactly the opposite.Yet by the end it is difficult to tell who has suffered most.Jack is now dead and so his pain has gone.Ennis has to confront it on a daily basis, and has no respite even in sleep.
The thought of a grown man crying in his sleep, and yet desperately trying to hang on to a good dream,is so sad and lonely, it is difficult to bear.Ennis at the end is in a worse  situation  than Ennis at the start, alone at the start, but now having experienced love, he is alone and lonely.
Proulx has weaved her magic and we come full circle,  with Ennis, which in turn ties in perfectly,with Jack in the dozy embrace flashback thinking,
"maybe
they'd never got much further than that"
All those years, all that love, all that pain, and where do we end,almost back at the start.Twenty years lived and the end result is not much different for Ennis than the start, except he has now experienced love, which he has lost, so he is arguably in an even worse place than at the start.

I have never set much store by the  much overused statement, it is better to have loved and lost than never loved at all. Sorry don't agree with that, to have loved and lost hurts like hell.Better for me , the adage, what you have never had you never miss.

Proulx genius is in weaving a story where all roads finally come almost back to the start, with so many parallels in between,the reader may never discover them all.To have that magic happen with so few words is even more extraordinary. I can only remember my father crying once, and it haunts me still to this day.He was then a very austere father figure,who kept a firm check on his emotions.The sight of him sitting at the head of the table with silent tears rolling down as he carved the beef,nearly destroyed me. It could be that is the reason that the thought of Ennis silently crying in his sleep,is more than I can bear.
Proulx herself says, that a story is never finished until it has been read. I love that sentiment.It allows us to all take from it based on our own experiences, so no two interpretations will be the same.
How astute is that,no wonder she is so well regarded.I know the dozy embrace scene resonates so much with me as I have my own real life version, and it still hurts.

O.K second box of Kleenex opened.

One final note, I am an avaricious reader,so  despite majoring  in the sciences, I always took English as an extra subject, as I love to read.Never in the thousands of books that I have read, has one not only crawled under my skin, refusing to leave,in this way, but in addition has had me examine the very core of my soul.The person who gave a copy  to me, knew me better even than my own family.He knew exactly what my reaction would be.Unfortunately, I ignored my heart and carried on running.
Could it be when Freddie Mercury sings,
 
"theres no time for us ,theres no place for us,
 what is this thing that builds our dreams yet slips away from us,
Theres no chance for us,
its all decided for us
this world has only one sweet moment set aside for us.

He hits the nail exactly on the head.
Jack has his dozy embrace, Ennis has his little darlin, reunion kiss

Interesting how I have had to use so many words to try and describe the emotion invoked by so few.!!!!

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #86 on: August 23, 2008, 04:32:45 pm »
Ennis at the end is in a worse  situation  than Ennis at the start, alone at the start, but now having experienced love, he is alone and lonely.

All those years, all that love, all that pain, and where do we end,almost back at the start.Twenty years lived and the end result is not much different for Ennis than the start, except he has now experienced love, which he has lost, so he is arguably in an even worse place than at the start.

I have never set much store by the  much overused statement, it is better to have loved and lost than never loved at all. Sorry don't agree with that, to have loved and lost hurts like hell.Better for me , the adage, what you have never had you never miss.
I agree with you, friend, that to love and have lost hurts like hell, but still, isn't it better than oblivion? Ask the person who never found love, ask the 40-year-old virgin, and I'm sure they will say that they would gladly trade places with those of us who have experienced that once-in-a-lifetime love, even if only briefly. The truth is, lonlieness hurts like hell too, in fact, life is mostly pain. Yet we all go on with hope, and with stories like Brokeback Mountain, there is hope that more people will succeed in connecting.
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Offline optom3

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #87 on: August 23, 2008, 07:08:44 pm »
I agree with you, friend, that to love and have lost hurts like hell, but still, isn't it better than oblivion? Ask the person who never found love, ask the 40-year-old virgin, and I'm sure they will say that they would gladly trade places with those of us who have experienced that once-in-a-lifetime love, even if only briefly. The truth is, lonlieness hurts like hell too, in fact, life is mostly pain. Yet we all go on with hope, and with stories like Brokeback Mountain, there is hope that more people will succeed in connecting.

I love your last sentence, so full optimism, I so hope you are right, the world needs more people to be connecting instead of fighting. I look back at my  14-16 year Jack and Ennis type affair.There are definiteley some days when pre affair seems preferable to post.
That could be down to an email today, asking, does it still punch you in the stomach, catching you completely unaware even after all this time.He knows the answer of course.It was 14 years in July !!! Including the very first meeting, before anything further it is actually,16 years.
It still hurts like hell, and the fact that he will be in Florida in January on business has thrown me into a tail spin.
The one thing I would maybe disagree with is, I personally feel the loneliest place to be is somewhere you are meant to be happy and you aren't.
You sound like at some time you found your love.

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #88 on: August 25, 2008, 12:17:20 pm »
Annie called it "getting hit by the hammer of life." It is inescapable!
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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #89 on: August 26, 2008, 11:51:20 am »
I think there is a poll in here somewhere, and I'm gonna go over to David's forum and start one!

I was talking to my friend Vermont Sunset yesterday who was finishing up reading an Annie Proulx novel. In all the AP works he's read, he has never come across a story such as Brokeback Mountain. Anybody else know of one? Why would such a bleak writer suddenly write such a story, do you think?
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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #90 on: August 26, 2008, 03:21:33 pm »
I think there is a poll in here somewhere, and I'm gonna go over to David's forum and start one!


Okay, I have created a poll...please go over to "Is it better to have loved..." and vote!!
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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #91 on: October 09, 2008, 09:46:03 pm »
I can't believe how often I use the phrase "rusty but still usable." In the story, this described another phrase "Time to hit the hay." And to tie it all together, LaShawn used the phrase "chewing gum and baling wire." But that last one wasn't in the book, in fact LaShawn wasn't in the book at all!!

But baling wire is used to bind hay in the process of harvesting it.

Let's revive this thread in honor of the 11th anniversary of the story publication on October 13!
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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #92 on: October 12, 2008, 09:01:44 pm »
I was talking to my friend Vermont Sunset yesterday who was finishing up reading an Annie Proulx novel. In all the AP works he's read, he has never come across a story such as Brokeback Mountain. Anybody else know of one? Why would such a bleak writer suddenly write such a story, do you think?

In the most recent interview with AP done by the BBC, she stated that The Shipping News had a happy ending of sorts...if happiness could be described as an absence of pain.

I still think that Annie Proulx delved into the realm of romance in writing Brokeback Mountain. But I don't mean that in terms of a bodice ripper type Gothic novel. I see the story as being an enhancement on the romance of the West. Your thoughts?
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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #93 on: October 12, 2008, 11:30:33 pm »
Another interesting anecdote. In the version of the story published in The New Yorker, Ennis asks Jack, "You do it with other guys, Jack?" And Jack says, "Shit no." But in the book version, AP changed it to "You do it with other guys? Jack?" THe change in punctuation shows that Jack didn't answer, at least not right away, thus communicating that he had been riding other bulls, not rolling his own.

This reminds me about the mystery of the placement of commas in Hamlet, since we do not know whether Shakespere wrote, "To be or not to be, that is the question" or "To be or not, to be, that is the question" which can be interpreted a different way.
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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #94 on: October 12, 2008, 11:46:23 pm »
Just randomly open the story to any page and start reading any sentence. You'll find words that will fascinate and bedevil you for days...for instance, I just noticed this passage:

"He didn't ask if Ennis had a watch but took a cheap round ticker on a braided cord from a box on a high shelf, wound and set it, tossed it to him as if he weren't worth the reach. 'Tomorrow mornin we'll truck you up the jump-off.' Pair of deuces going nowhere."

It is so poignant that Aguirre concludes this ceremony with the giving of a heart to Ennis. For that is what it is, a cheap round ticker on a braided cord. From a high shelf, no less. And another thing that strikes me is the italization of the words tomorrow mornin. Just like Jack's last words, 'See you in the morning.' Aguirre calls Jack and Ennis a pair a deuces, two twos, accentuating the duality that permeates this story.
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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #95 on: October 13, 2008, 12:01:04 am »
To understand this scene better and read more about the fascinating character of Aguirre, go here!

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,3130.0/all.html
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Offline loneleeb3

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #96 on: October 16, 2008, 08:32:09 am »
Just randomly open the story to any page and start reading any sentence. You'll find words that will fascinate and bedevil you for days...for instance, I just noticed this passage:

"He didn't ask if Ennis had a watch but took a cheap round ticker on a braided cord from a box on a high shelf, wound and set it, tossed it to him as if he weren't worth the reach. 'Tomorrow mornin we'll truck you up the jump-off.' Pair of deuces going nowhere."

It is so poignant that Aguirre concludes this ceremony with the giving of a heart to Ennis. For that is what it is, a cheap round ticker on a braided cord. From a high shelf, no less. And another thing that strikes me is the italization of the words tomorrow mornin. Just like Jack's last words, 'See you in the morning.' Aguirre calls Jack and Ennis a pair a deuces, two twos, accentuating the duality that permeates this story.

I always wondered what they did thatt night before meeting in the morning. Where did they stay? Ennis certainly couldn't afford a hotel and he didn't have a vehicle to sleep in. How far was the jump off spot from town? Did he walk alnight or catch a ride with Jack? Maybe these have been discussed but I never saw it addressed.
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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #97 on: October 16, 2008, 09:14:10 am »
The story gives not a hint. I believe an outtake exists from the movie showing Jack sleeping in his truck, with Ennis in the passenger seat, awake and looking uncomfortable. Probably Ennis would have been just fine stretched out in the grass beside Aguirre's trailer, with his jacket rolled up under his head. It's called bivouacking.
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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #98 on: October 16, 2008, 09:48:57 am »
I always wondered what they did thatt night before meeting in the morning. Where did they stay? Ennis certainly couldn't afford a hotel and he didn't have a vehicle to sleep in. How far was the jump off spot from town? Did he walk alnight or catch a ride with Jack? Maybe these have been discussed but I never saw it addressed.

For Story!Ennis: he did have his own car where he probably slept in.

Movie!Ennis: I've heard about those outtakes and it makes sense to me that Jack would share his truck with Ennis for that night (and that Ennis would look uncomfortable).

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #99 on: October 16, 2008, 02:28:18 pm »
Random sentence for today. The last Jack and Ennis ever knew of each other:

"Jack heard his spurs tremble as he mounted, the words 'See you tomorrow,' and the horse's shuddering snort, grind of hoof on stone.

For some reason, I thought the last words were "See you in the morning." Was that the way it was in the movie?

I love the references to metal (spurs), air (horse's snorting), bone (hoof) and earth (stone) in this short passage. The presence of water is noticably absent.
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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #100 on: October 16, 2008, 05:33:09 pm »
Random sentence for today. The last Jack and Ennis ever knew of each other:

"Jack heard his spurs tremble as he mounted, the words 'See you tomorrow,' and the horse's shuddering snort, grind of hoof on stone.

For some reason, I thought the last words were "See you in the morning." Was that the way it was in the movie?

I love the references to metal (spurs), air (horse's snorting), bone (hoof) and earth (stone) in this short passage. The presence of water is noticably absent.


I think it was in the movie because the last we see of the two of them together is the Dozy Embrace. They had just had the argument by the lake and Ennis collapses and Jack reaches in and takes him in his arms then it fades off to the dozy embrace. Then back to reality and Ennis is driving off down the road. I think it is see you in the morning but it's been so long since i have seen the movie. God, I think that is the one of the saddest part. Going from the beauty of the Dozy Embrace and the look of sheer contentment and peace on Jacks face to the angry older jack watching Ennis drive off.
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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #101 on: October 16, 2008, 06:15:27 pm »
Thanks, Rich. Another reason why I may be confused is because Jack says "See you for supper" and  writes "See you in two weeks fish will be jumping" and Ennis says "Well see you around."

Must schedule another viewing!!
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Is it: "See You in the Morning" or "See You Tomorrow"?
« Reply #102 on: October 17, 2008, 04:31:47 pm »
Would like to get an answer on this before moving forward with a new quote from the book.

When he leaves the dozy embrace in the movie, does Ennis say "See you in the morning?"
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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #103 on: November 05, 2008, 12:08:09 am »
Quote for the day:

Tell you what, we could a had a good life together, a fuckin real good life. You wouldn't do it, Ennis, so what we got now is Brokeback Mountain. Everthing built on that. It's all we got, boy, fuckin all, so I hope you know that if you don't never know the rest. Count the damn few times we been together in twenty years. Measure the fuckin short leash you keep me on, then ask me about Mexico and then tell me you'll kill me for needin it and not hardly never getting it. You got no fuckin idea how bad it gets. I'm not you. I can't make it on a couple a high-altitiude fucks once or twice a year. You're too much for me, Ennis, you son of a whoreson bitch. I wish I knew how to quit you.

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Re: Is it: "See You in the Morning" or "See You Tomorrow"?
« Reply #104 on: November 06, 2008, 02:10:42 pm »
Would like to get an answer on this before moving forward with a new quote from the book.

When he leaves the dozy embrace in the movie, does Ennis say "See you in the morning?"

Yes he does. Ennis says:
   
       "I gotta go. [small pause and very small nod from Jack] See you in the morning."

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #105 on: November 06, 2008, 03:01:22 pm »
Quote for the day:

Tell you what, we could a had a good life together, a fuckin real good life. You wouldn't do it, Ennis, so what we got now is Brokeback Mountain. Everthing built on that. It's all we got, boy, fuckin all, so I hope you know that if you don't never know the rest. Count the damn few times we been together in twenty years. Measure the fuckin short leash you keep me on, then ask me about Mexico and then tell me you'll kill me for needin it and not hardly never getting it. You got no fuckin idea how bad it gets. I'm not you. I can't make it on a couple a high-altitiude fucks once or twice a year. You're too much for me, Ennis, you son of a whoreson bitch. I wish I knew how to quit you.



The first thing that stands out to me is a difference to the movie.

Book: ... a fucking real good life.You wouldn't do it, Ennis, so what we got now...
Movie: We coulda had a good life together. Fuckin real good life. Had us a place of our own. But you ain't want it Ennis. So all we got now...

This difference stands out to me because in the movie I think Jack so so, so wrong about the wanting (respectively not wanting). It's not about "not wanting" on Ennis's side, it's about not daring. Not even daring to contemplate this possibility.

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #106 on: November 07, 2008, 02:51:49 pm »


The first thing that stands out to me is a difference to the movie.

Book: ... a fucking real good life.You wouldn't do it, Ennis, so what we got now...
Movie: We coulda had a good life together. Fuckin real good life. Had us a place of our own. But you ain't want it Ennis. So all we got now...

This difference stands out to me because in the movie I think Jack so so, so wrong about the wanting (respectively not wanting). It's not about "not wanting" on Ennis's side, it's about not daring. Not even daring to contemplate this possibility.


Hi Chrissi,

I completely agree with you that this difference in Jack's statement book vs. film is very significant.  In a way, the statement from the book "You wouldn't do it" seems slightly less depressing than his assertion in the film that Ennis "didn't want it."

And, I also agree with you that somewhere deep down, Ennis probably really did want it.  But, maybe from Jack's perspective (knowing less about Ennis's daily life, and certain aspects of Ennis's motivation, etc. than the viewer/reader), it seemed like Ennis didn't really want it.

Another possibility seems to be that in the statement from the film about "wanting it" might be an attempt at a guilt-trip aimed at Ennis.  It may be something like the stinging "I did once" phrase... meant to make Ennis worry.  The "you didn't want it" statement might also be seen in an equivalent light to Ennis's mean "boys like you" or "because of you I'm like this."  In a way though, the "you didn't want it" statement from Jack also reflects a little bit of Jack's growing hopelessness about the situation, so takes on a different ring than Ennis's accusatory statements.

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #107 on: November 07, 2008, 04:26:07 pm »
"You wouldn't do it, Ennis, so what we got now is Brokeback Mountain. Everthing built on that. It's all we got, boy, fuckin all, so I hope you know that if you don't never know the rest."

I find this one of the cruelest and saddest statements in the story. Because Jack is tearing down the illusion that they somehow have been sharing a life instead of living separate and very dissimilar lives.

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #108 on: November 08, 2008, 12:12:53 pm »
"You wouldn't do it, Ennis, so what we got now is Brokeback Mountain. Everthing built on that. It's all we got, boy, fuckin all, so I hope you know that if you don't never know the rest."

I find this one of the cruelest and saddest statements in the story. Because Jack is tearing down the illusion that they somehow have been sharing a life instead of living separate and very dissimilar lives.


Very very true.  In the story, in the dozy embrace passage, Annie refers to their "separate and difficult lives".

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #109 on: November 08, 2008, 12:20:45 pm »
As said:
      "You wouldn't do it, Ennis, so what we got now is Brokeback Mountain. Everthing built on that. It's all we got, boy, fuckin all, so I hope you know that if you don't never know the rest."

                 

..........

Plus, said too is:
        "separate and difficult lives".           
..............

And may I say that that is most of humanity finding itself in such separate and difficult lives ! Even most married couples, getting along or not, each think (some times or all the time) that they are in some ways in separate and difficult lives ! ??


At least, some common tie like Brokeback Mountain with Ennis and Jack brought such joys to each and to both !!

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #110 on: November 08, 2008, 02:11:15 pm »
As said:
      "You wouldn't do it, Ennis, so what we got now is Brokeback Mountain. Everthing built on that. It's all we got, boy, fuckin all, so I hope you know that if you don't never know the rest."

                 

..........

Plus, said too is:
        "separate and difficult lives".           
..............

And may I say that that is most of humanity finding itself in such separate and difficult lives ! Even most married couples, getting along or not, each think (some times or all the time) that they are in some ways in separate and difficult lives ! ??
Sadly, you are right, friend Artiste. Separate and difficult is the definitive phrase for many of us.
At least, some common tie like Brokeback Mountain with Ennis and Jack brought such joys to each and to both !!

Thanks for reminding us of that! You know, one of the first times I ever saw the movie, right after Jack said, "All we got now is Brokeback Mountain." I said to myself, well at least you had that!! There are people who never got the chance to have their Brokeback Mountain, not even for one day.
"chewing gum and duct tape"

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #111 on: November 08, 2008, 03:41:24 pm »
Merci, thanks very much Front-Ranger !

Your post is very warm and educative about humanity !

Somehow, it also remind me of a recent international exhibition of works of art I saw for many days since I helped organised it; one work of art was such as lack of communications with some communication as it sought that as a reason for its creation.

It is like a sculpture, and I do not now why that sculpture relates to me, like Brokeback Mountain does. You want to know about it ? (In some ways Ennis and Jack are like sculptures that Annie created ?)

Au revoir,
hugs!

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #112 on: November 09, 2008, 03:05:27 pm »
Here's something I'd like to share with my fellow Bettermostians. I'm not exactly sure where is really the appropriate place to post it. I'm posting here because what follows made me immediately think of the short story, though I suppose it might apply to the film as well.

Anyway, as I was doing my daily Bible reading today, I came across this comment in the devotional booklet that I follow:

"A story that is not cut and dried, not described with a tight boundary, can live and breathe and speak across geography and time. It is this space for interpretation that makes our scripture truly a 'living word.'"

Of course the writer was speaking about the Bible, but her words immediately reminded me of Annie Proulx's well-known comment about the reader "finishing" a story. I think it can truly be said that Brokeback Mountain is far from "cut and dried," and neither is it "described with a tight boundary." And it certainly speaks across "geography and time."

FWIW. ...  :)
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #113 on: November 09, 2008, 03:34:45 pm »
That's so beautiful and true, Jeff! I especially like the part about "speak across geography and time." I know of no other author whose work is so focused on its geography and weaves its characters, timeline, and plot into the geography as does Annie Proulx's. Other Western authors come close, too. There's no doubt that the West of the U.S. influences those who live here and write about it in the most intense ways. All without resorting to references to Devil's Tower, Yellowstone, or Jackson Hole. Amazing!!

And Annie Proulx evoked the times of the 1960s and beyond accurately as well, without even mentioning the Kennedy assasination, hippies, the Beatles, etc. Instead, she touched on the things that would mean something to her characters, such as the draft, rodeos, the sinking of the Threasher, etc.

"chewing gum and duct tape"

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #114 on: November 09, 2008, 04:34:38 pm »
It is like a sculpture, and I do not now why that sculpture relates to me, like Brokeback Mountain does. You want to know about it ? (In some ways Ennis and Jack are like sculptures that Annie created ?)

Definitely, I would like to know more about this sculpture, Artiste! There is a tall tree on my property that always reminds me of Jack and Ennis. Sometime in its youth it suffered damage or a lightning strike and its trunk split into two. When I gaze up at the sky and see the graceful twin trunks twining around each other, I always think of Jack and Ennis and "The Wings" plays in my mind.

Annie Proulx listened to much music and viewed art and photography while writing the story. She often brings up artists such as Remington, Russell, and Richard Prince when discussing her work. She particularly mentioned Charles Russell, who popularized the West and cowboys in the 1800s. She also wrote an introduction for the book Working the West by William Matthews, a watercolorist who I know who illustrated Close Range, her collection of stories that Brokeback Mountain appeared in. Very soon a book about the Red Desert by a photographer is coming out in which she wrote an essay.

There is more information about art and Brokeback Mountain in this topic: How has your understanding of art changed?

"chewing gum and duct tape"

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #115 on: November 09, 2008, 05:19:33 pm »
Merci Front-Ranger !

Concerning the sculpture that I have seen lately, I must note to you that it is graphic !
For the base, the artist who created this sculpture, told me that she researched a very long time ( I think over two years) ladies who had freed themselves and society. That base had therefore many, many photos of the free ladies, plus some clippings of some. But the top of the sculpture in 3D, accentuates the opposite: slavery; actual time as in islamic radicals who forced many ladies to wear something that show that such females are enslaved; can you guess what ?

Remember in the Brokeback Mountain movie how at least two scenes show graphically death; the gay man who had been tortured because he had been in an homosexual relation with another gay man; and, then the other scene shows how Jack was tortured too by a gang of anti-gays since they murdered him for being a gay man ??

Some Bettermost members and others will not accept that the Brokeback Mountain movie and Annie's story show homophobia in many ways !

Likewise, many think that islamic radicals love their wives even if they enslave them ! (To me, that is NOT love !)

Also to me, by extension, Annie tells us of harder times ahead (even in the USA) since such as islamic radical horrors as well as other terroisms or tortures or murders; and, I am happy that Jeff says that some stories like this one is not cut and dry, and cuts through boundaries.

And, as well as showing anti-gay times in the Brokeback Mountain movie, I see it too as anti-female to some extent... much of it !! And now before, during and after the current USA elections as more and more anti-female is spreading, and even most females do not realized that ? - that seems so to me !

Awaiting your news,
au revoir,
hugs!  Would you like me to provide possibly a pic of that sculpture ?

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #116 on: November 09, 2008, 09:36:40 pm »
I posted this elsewhere, but it seems an appropriate idea to post here. I was thinking about the short story and the meaning of the title "Brokeback Mountain".

I know the term "Brokeback Mountain" is what's also known as a "Swayback Mountain", two peaks joined by a ridge which reminds one of a "swayback" horse. A horse whose spine sags between withers and rump. You can see it depicted on the movie poster under Heaths chin. I had always thought it symbolized Jack and Ennis, two peaks joined, but always to be separate. It occurred to me that what the author might have meant by picking that term as the title is revealed in the last line of the short story: "There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, but nothing could be done about it, and if you can't fix it you've got to stand it". What Ennis knew, and what he tried to believe are the peaks, joined, but always to separated by that "open space".

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #117 on: November 10, 2008, 01:49:32 am »
I posted this elsewhere, but it seems an appropriate idea to post here. I was thinking about the short story and the meaning of the title "Brokeback Mountain".

I know the term "Brokeback Mountain" is what's also known as a "Swayback Mountain", two peaks joined by a ridge which reminds one of a "swayback" horse. A horse whose spine sags between withers and rump. You can see it depicted on the movie poster under Heaths chin. I had always thought it symbolized Jack and Ennis, two peaks joined, but always to be separate. It occurred to me that what the author might have meant by picking that term as the title is revealed in the last line of the short story: "There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, but nothing could be done about it, and if you can't fix it you've got to stand it". What Ennis knew, and what he tried to believe are the peaks, joined, but always to separated by that "open space".

Retriopian - I think that's a very nice observation.  Thank you for sharing it .
-Lynne
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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #118 on: November 10, 2008, 06:41:33 am »
Quote
Retriopian - I think that's a very nice observation.  Thank you for sharing it .
-Lynne

Thanks for the nice comment.

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #119 on: November 10, 2008, 07:20:57 am »
I posted this elsewhere, but it seems an appropriate idea to post here. I was thinking about the short story and the meaning of the title "Brokeback Mountain".

I know the term "Brokeback Mountain" is what's also known as a "Swayback Mountain", two peaks joined by a ridge which reminds one of a "swayback" horse. A horse whose spine sags between withers and rump. You can see it depicted on the movie poster under Heaths chin. I had always thought it symbolized Jack and Ennis, two peaks joined, but always to be separate. It occurred to me that what the author might have meant by picking that term as the title is revealed in the last line of the short story: "There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, but nothing could be done about it, and if you can't fix it you've got to stand it". What Ennis knew, and what he tried to believe are the peaks, joined, but always to separated by that "open space".

Thank you Retropian! Have just learnt something new about  my favourite movie/story. And also good food for thought.  :)
BbM, I swear

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #120 on: January 09, 2009, 02:11:34 pm »
This topic has been going on for nearly two years, friends, and yet we have barely passed the prologue and the meaning of the title!! Come explore with me the fascinating story Brokeback Mountain by Annie Proulx!!

"chewing gum and duct tape"

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #121 on: January 16, 2009, 07:23:53 pm »
Quote
I think it can truly be said that Brokeback Mountain is far from "cut and dried," and neither is it "described with a tight boundary." And it certainly speaks across "geography and time."

Friend, you can say that twice and mean it!
"The biggest obstacle to most of us achieving our dreams isn't reality, it's our own fear"

"Saint Paul had his Epiphany on the road to Damascus, Mine was on Brokeback Mountain"

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #122 on: April 25, 2009, 06:20:38 pm »
Rereading our favorite story on a gloomy spring day...I'm reminded of the scholarship friend Amanda did on the word "pitch," especially since I noticed another use of the word in the second column of the story! Joe Aguirre is giving our boys his sermon, er, instructions for their summer on the mountain and he tells Jack with a chop of his hand to "pitch a pup tent on the Q. T. with the sheep..." Yet ANOTHER use of the word!!


This is a great topic Sister Mod!   The instance of this word that comes to my mind immediately is as a verb... in the sentence: " He wanted to be a sophomore, felt the word carried a kind of distinction, but the truck broke down short of it, pitching him directly into ranch work."

Now, looking at my dictionary (a leatherbound Webster's Ninth Collegiate Dictonary) it not only shows multiple definitions for the main word "pitch" (as a noun and a verb), but there are is almost 3/4 of a page full of words that contain the word "pitch" within them.  Some of the words listed that include the term "pitch" are: pitch-black, pitch-blende, pitch-dark, pitched battle, pitcher, pitcher plant, pitchfork, pitch in, pitchman, pitchout, pitch pine, pitch pipe, pitchstone, pitchwoman, and pitchy.

I'm going to highlight some of the definitions here that seem particularly interesting:

Here are some of the main noun definitions for the basic word "pitch".  My dictionary divides the noun section into two very distinct parts (interrupted by the section of definitions on the verb form... this is the first set of noun definitions):
1) a black or dark viscous substance obtained as a residue in the distillation of organic materials and esp. tars. (this is the very first definition of all that appear)
2) any of various various bituminous substances
etc.  several definitions along these lines

Here are some of the main verb definitions for "pitch":
1) to cover, smear or treat with or as with pitch
2)to erect and fix firmly in place
3) a) to throw usu. with a particular objective or toward a particular point {~ hay onto a wagon} (b) to throw {a baseball} to a batter (c) to toss so as to fall at or near a mark {a coin} (d) to put aside or discard by throwing
4) a) to cause to be at a particular level or of a particular quality. (b) to cause to be set at a particular angle
5) to utter glibly and insincerely
6) to use as a starting pitcher, to play as pitcher
7) to hit a golf ball in a high arc with backspin so that it rolls very little after striking the green

Here is a second, separate section of verb forms:
1) a) to fall precipitately or headlong :o It's almost like Annie was reading a dictionary when she was writing one particular BBM passage that we all know and love)
1) b) to have the bow of a ship alternately plunge precipitately and rise abruptly
1) c) to buck  :o
2) to encamp
3) to hit upon or happen upon something
4) to incline downward
5) to throw a ball to a batter

Here is the second section of noun forms:
1) the action of manner of pitching; esp. an up-and-down movement
2) slope (there are many subdefinitions of this)
3) top, zenith (archaic use)
4) a) the relative level, intensity, or extent of some quality or state. (b) the property of a sound and esp. a musical tone that is determined by the frequency of the waves producing it. (there is a lot more to this part of the definition)
5) a steep place
6) a playing field
7) an all-fours game in which the first card led is a trump. (  ??? I have no idea what that means!)
8) an often high pressure sales talk

etc., etc.

So, it seems that this word applies to tons of different themes, topics and concepts peppered throughout BBM in very many different contexts.  And, of course the term "to pitch" or "pitcher" also has a sexual slang meaning.

Definitely lots of food for thought!
:)

 
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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #123 on: April 26, 2009, 12:34:27 pm »
Could Larry McMurtry have unwittingly inspired the characters of Jack Twist and Ennis Del Mar as well as some of the story of Brokeback Mountain?  In The Late Child, a novel of his published in 1995, there is a minor incident towards the end of the book in Chapter 14 that causes me to wonder.  Here are a few quotes, condensed from several pages:
 
(At the airport)  ".... noticed a young cowboy, sitting a few seats away.  The cowboy was short and skinny.  When she glanced at him she saw that he was bent over, with his face in his hands, crying.  His skinny shoulders were shaking, and his black cowboy hat had fallen off his head and was on the floor, by his boots.
 
.... All he had with him was a small duffel bag, with a pair of spurs dangling from the handle, and a rope.  His boots were dusty and his pants legs were a little too long--he had stepped on the cuffs and left them pretty frayed.  Since he had his face in his hands it was difficult to tell exactly how old he was, but he looked to be only in his late teens.
 
.... 'Can I help you, sir?' she asked, sitting down beside him.
 
The boy, his face wet with tears, looked up at her--his look was blank.
 
'Jody's dead,' the young man said simply, as if it should be obvious to any passerby why he was sitting in the Tulsa airport at midnight, crying.
 
'That old pickup of ours didn't have no seat belts on the driver's side,' he went on.  'Jody always drove like a bat out of hell even when there wasn't no hurry.  She missed a curve and flipped.  Got thrown clean out of the window and broke her neck.  Kilt instantly.  The kids weren't hurt, though.
 
... 'Jody was your wife?' (she) asked.
 
'Yep, only she ain't no more, she's dead, and I got two kids to raise and not a cent to my name.  I sure can't make enough calf roping to support two kids, so I guess that's the end of rodeoing
 

.... she said. 'I hope you don't mind if I sit with you for a while.'  'No, ma'am, I don't,' the boy said.  I'm Wesley Straw.  I come all the way up here from Lubbock and didn't win a cent.  I don't know how we'll even scrape up the money to bury Jody... my folks don't think I should have married Jody in the first place....
 
'Oh God, ma'am, I just can't believe she's dead,' Wesley said.  'All she was doing was driving home.  They estimate she was going better than ninety...
 
'Maybe you can get back to rodeoing a little later, Wesley," (she) said...
 
But Wesley Straw shook his head.  'I should have give it up already,' he said. 'It was just a dream I had, when I was growing up.  I wanted to be a world's champion cowboy so bad-- or at least to get to the national finals.  But I can't afford my own trailer, so when I enter a rodeo I have to borrow a horse to rope off of.  But that's no good.  I ain't familiar with the horse, and the horse ain't familiar with me  Sometimes I'll be riding a different roping horse every time I rope.  You don't get nowhere that way.  All the good ropers got their own trailers and their own horses.'
 
'It don't matter now,' he went on. 'Jody was getting tired of me going off and never bringing home no money.  I would have had to give up and go to work in the oil fields anyway, pretty soon.  God, I hate the thought of spending the rest of my life working in the stinking oilfields.'
 
'Wesley, I lost my daughter recently,' (she) said.
 
'Aw, ma'am, that's worse.' Wesley said, turning his anguished eyes to hers.  'Losing Jody is hell, but if I was to lose one of my girls I'd take a shotgun and blow my head off.'  On impulse he dug in his pocket and pulled out a sweat-stained walled and showed (her) small snapshots of his daughters, aged three and four.
 
Then he pulled out a picture of his wife.
 
'And this is Jody,' he said, offering (her) a picture of a thin-faced, pretty brunette.
 
... Just then Wesley Straw's flight was called.  He popped up and put his black hat back on his head--it looked much too large for his small head and thin neck.  He picked up his duffel bag, which made his spurs jingle a little.
 
... He gave (her) a little nod, and a grateful glance before getting in line to board the plane.  Then he dried his eyes on his shirtsleeve and straightened his black hat on his head.  There was something about his look that broke (her) heart.  He was only nineteen, he had said, and now he was flying off to try his best to be a brave cowboy and raise his little girls, letting go forever his dream of being a world's champion calf roper and getting to compete in the national finals rodeo; all because his wife was driving too fast and failed to make a curve.  Probably it had been hard for Wesley to keep up his hopes anyway, since he didn't even have enough money to own a trailer and didn't get to rope off his own horse.  But he had still been trying.... Now it was over.


This is pretty fascinating, Larry.

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #124 on: April 29, 2009, 03:16:12 pm »
I wish you Northwesterners could pick up the pace of your dialogue a little bit. I mean, two years between exchanges is a bit much, even for me with my Midwestern drawl. Maybe you could go back to your Eastern roots, Ms. Ellemeno!!

Meanwhile, I read the story again yesterday for the first time in ages, paying particular attention to the words used to describe Jack and Ennis, and used for their dialogue. It was beautiful, like poetry rather than story writing!!

Can't wait to see that opera performed!!
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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #125 on: March 18, 2011, 02:38:04 pm »
Word for the day: slopped. This is a very Prouxian word. You don't see it much in typical British or American literature. But in Brokeback Mountain, it's used at least three times. There's:

Ennis slopped the washrag around, trying to wash everything he could reach.

"Going up, the day was fine, but the trail deep-drifted and slopping wet at the margins."

Linda Higgins dumped the sopping wet coffee filter in the trash. (Okay, that's a slightly different word, but same meaning)

What was the slopping about? Why is this story so messy?
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #126 on: March 18, 2011, 02:43:15 pm »
What was the slopping about? Why is this story so messy?

Because life is messy?
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #127 on: March 20, 2011, 06:37:17 pm »
True, friend, but some people manage to live tidy lives. Or do they?
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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #128 on: April 22, 2011, 02:49:52 pm »
We never did adequately answer Rich's question about the meaning of pitching a pup tent on the QT.  :'( What does QT mean anyway? I always thought it meant quiet time, but that really doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Your thoughts?
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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #129 on: April 22, 2011, 03:13:33 pm »
We never did adequately answer Rich's question about the meaning of pitching a pup tent on the QT.  :'( What does QT mean anyway? I always thought it meant quiet time, but that really doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Your thoughts?

Seems "qt" is simply short for "quiet"


From Merriam Webster:

— on the quiet
: in a secretive manner : in secret



It's in my English/German dictionary, it's in Wiktionary and I found plenty hits to other dictionaries.
Also found this, with more background info:




On the QT
Meaning
On the quiet.

Origin
The slang term 'qt' is a shortened form of 'quiet'. There's no definitive source for the phrase 'on the q.t.', although it appears to be of 19th century British origin - not, as is often supposed, American. The longer phrase 'on the quiet' is also not especially old, but is first recorded somewhat before 'on the qt', in Otago: Goldfields & Resources, 1862:

"Unless men can work [the gold] on 'the quiet', they are not likely to make 'piles' so rapidly as Messrs. Hartley and Riley."

That first record is from new Zealand, but is soon followed by citations from the United Kingdom and the USA.

As to on the q.t., in The Facts on File Encyclopedia of Word and Phrase Origins, Robert Hendrickson states:

"A British broadside ballad (1870) contained the line 'Whatever I tell you is on the Q.T.'"

It would be good to know the name of the ballad in order to follow up this assertion. Unfortunately, the author doesn't give it, from which we can only suppose he didn't know it himself. Without some supporting evidence that claim has to be in doubt.

Hendrickson also goes on to say:

"On the Q.T.' gained more popularity when it appeared in an 1891 minstrel show number called 'Ta-ra-ra-boom-de-ay.' London 'went stark mad over the refrain,' which was written by Henry J. Sayers and sung by Lottie Collins. The first stanza follows:

A sweet Tuxedo girl you see,
Queen of swell society,
Fond of fun as fun can be
When it's on the strict Q.T.

I'm not too young, I'm not too old,
Not too timid, not too bold,
Just the kind of sport I'm told

Ta-ra-ra-boom-de-ay."

This assertion appears to be incorrect. The first stanza of that song is this:

A smart and stylish girl you see,
Belle of good society;
Not too strict, but rather free,
Yet as right as right can be!

never forward, never bold,
Not too hot and not too cold,
But the very thing I'm told,
That in your arms you'd like to hold!

Ta-ra-ra Boom-de-ay

The 'on the strict Q.T' line doesn't appear in the original 1891 version of the song. I'm not sure where Henrickson's version was obtained from and when it was written. The Lizzie Borden Society's web site (http://lizzieandrewborden.com) has this to say about it:

"Over the years, the easily sung and remembered tune has been claimed by many other composers and lyricists who have added their own version of the words."

All early citations of the phrase have it as 'on the strict q.t.'. The first recorded use of any version of the phrase in print that I can find documentary evidence for is by the Irish novelist George Moore, in A mummer's wife 1884:

" It will be possible to have one spree on the strict q.t."

The first use of 'on the q.t.' that isn't strict, so to speak, is from the Indiana newspaper The Sunday Gazette, January 1898, in an advert for a stage show by Fanny Rice.

The phrase has retained its place in the language and is still used, although these days it has the whiff of US pulp fiction gangster novels and films.

H. L. Mencken, in The American Language, 1921, comments on the American fondness for abbreviations. like OK, PDQ, COD, as well QT. He suggests they helped non-English speaking immigrants to communicate.

In the 1997 film L.A. Confidential (screenplay Brian Helgeland, based on a novel by James Ellroy), Sid Hudgens (played by Danny DeVito) signs off his newspaper columns with "off the record, on the QT and very hush-hush.". This was taken up as the film's tagline in advertising posters.



Source:
http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/on-the-qt.html

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #130 on: April 22, 2011, 03:13:44 pm »

We never did adequately answer Rich's question about the meaning of pitching a pup tent on the QT.  :'( What does QT mean anyway? I always thought it meant quiet time, but that really doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Your thoughts?


According to my online dictionary (tyda.se) 'on the QT' means 'secretly, in secret'.

I thought it was because I'm not a native speaker I didn't understand it.
Isn't it a standard phrase?

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #131 on: April 22, 2011, 03:28:46 pm »
Well, that does seem to definitively answer the question!!

No, it's not a standard phrase in the U.S. It's old fashioned and militaristic. But that's how Aguirre was so it seems perfect for him. Plus, like many of the phrases Annie used, it is slightly ambiguous and seems a wee bit racy. She might have used it because it could be translated as "Queer Time" instead.

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Offline Penthesilea

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #132 on: April 22, 2011, 03:31:20 pm »
Your thoughts?


When I first read it in the SS, I assumed it's one of those "Western phrases" (Western as in The West, not as in the movie genre).
I didn't find any evidence for that though. And in response to the phrases.org.ok article, I rather think it's not a Western phrase. Maybe quite the contrary, maybe it's one of those "strange/unusual/Prouxian phrases, like the above mentioned (by you) slopped.

My thoughts? As a foreign speaker, to me "qt" meaning simply "quiet" makes complete sense.

I had never heard or read "on the qt" before I read the short story for the first time, and it caught my eye and I looked the expression up.

Lee's reply came in while I was typing.

Offline Marina

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #133 on: April 22, 2011, 03:40:17 pm »
Yay, a Brokeback discussion!  I will never tire of the beauty of this film.

Yes, i have heard the phrase "on the QT" (somewhat) frequently, (or at least before!) meaning secretively, maybe in reference to breaking the rules of some kind.   Just more references to society and the unfortunate having to hide their relationship.  :(
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Offline Jeff Benson

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #134 on: April 30, 2011, 05:09:24 am »


When analyzing a story, I always consider the first impressions of the
reader: what he or she see perceives as the message of the author. Only
later when you pour over the text again and again do other symbols and
imagery reveal themselves. Some of these may have been intended by the
author. Some may have in fact worked on the subconscious mind of the
reader, when the story was first read. For some  these deep layers may
have been instantly recognized on first reading. That is not how I operate.
My operating principle is that the symbolism and imagery has to have a
plausible connection to the theme and messages that the author is trying
to convey. 8)
Hello everyone

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #135 on: May 06, 2011, 09:27:18 pm »
Good thoughts, Jeff. I'd like to hear more!
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Offline brokeback-fan

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #136 on: May 09, 2011, 08:57:35 pm »
Meaning

On the quiet.

Origin

The slang term 'qt' is a shortened form of 'quiet'. There's no definitive source for the phrase 'on the q.t.', although it appears to be of 19th century British origin - not, as is often supposed, American. The longer phrase 'on the quiet' is also not especially old, but is first recorded somewhat before 'on the qt', in Otago: Goldfields & Resources, 1862:

"Unless men can work [the gold] on 'the quiet', they are not likely to make 'piles' so rapidly as Messrs. Hartley and Riley."

That first record is from new Zealand, but is soon followed by citations from the United Kingdom and the USA.

As to on the q.t., in The Facts on File Encyclopedia of Word and Phrase Origins, Robert Hendrickson states:

"A British broadside ballad (1870) contained the line 'Whatever I tell you is on the Q.T.'"

It would be good to know the name of the ballad in order to follow up this assertion. Unfortunately, the author doesn't give it, from which we can only suppose he didn't know it himself. Without some supporting evidence that claim has to be in doubt.

Hendrickson also goes on to say:

"On the Q.T.' gained more popularity when it appeared in an 1891 minstrel show number called 'Ta-ra-ra-boom-de-ay.' London 'went stark mad over the refrain,' which was written by Henry J. Sayers and sung by Lottie Collins. The first stanza follows:

A sweet Tuxedo girl you see,
Queen of swell society,
Fond of fun as fun can be
When it's on the strict Q.T.

I'm not too young, I'm not too old,
Not too timid, not too bold,
Just the kind of sport I'm told

Ta-ra-ra-boom-de-ay."

This assertion appears to be incorrect. The first stanza of that song is this:

A smart and stylish girl you see,
Belle of good society;
Not too strict, but rather free,
Yet as right as right can be!

never forward, never bold,
Not too hot and not too cold,
But the very thing I'm told,
That in your arms you'd like to hold!

Ta-ra-ra Boom-de-ay

The 'on the strict Q.T' line doesn't appear in the original 1891 version of the song. I'm not sure where Henrickson's version was obtained from and when it was written. The Lizzie Borden Society's web site (http://lizzieandrewborden.com) has this to say about it:

"Over the years, the easily sung and remembered tune has been claimed by many other composers and lyricists who have added their own version of the words."

All early citations of the phrase have it as 'on the strict q.t.'. The first recorded use of any version of the phrase in print that I can find documentary evidence for is by the Irish novelist George Moore, in A mummer's wife 1884:

" It will be possible to have one spree on the strict q.t."

The first use of 'on the q.t.' that isn't strict, so to speak, is from the Indiana newspaper The Sunday Gazette, January 1898, in an advert for a stage show by Fanny Rice.

The phrase has retained its place in the language and is still used, although these days it has the whiff of US pulp fiction gangster novels and films.

H. L. Mencken, in The American Language, 1921, comments on the American fondness for abbreviations. like OK, PDQ, COD, as well QT. He suggests they helped non-English speaking immigrants to communicate.

In the 1997 film L.A. Confidential (screenplay Brian Helgeland, based on a novel by James Ellroy), Sid Hudgens (played by Danny DeVito) signs off his newspaper columns with "off the record, on the QT and very hush-hush.". This was taken up as the film's tagline in advertising posters.

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #137 on: May 09, 2011, 09:44:06 pm »
Thank you very much, fan. That appears to be the definitive word on the subject! I remember the song Ta-Ra-Ra-Boom-De-Ay appearing in the movie My Brilliant Career, a wonderful film set in Australia.
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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #138 on: July 03, 2011, 12:06:23 am »
For our next book discussion, here's a novel (he,he) idea. Let's discuss Brokeback Mountain! This was first published in October, 1997, in The New Yorker Magazine, as a story. The author is Annie Proulx.

It begins with a prologue which, for some reason, was left off of the story as published in The New Yorker. Annie Proulx said that it was left off by mistake. The first two sentences:

Ennis del Mar wakes before five, wind rocking the trailer, hissing in around the aluminum door and window frames. The shirts hanging on a nail shudder slightly in the draft.

Bumping for Amanda and any of you who, like me, are having a Brokie fever relapse these days!
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #139 on: July 03, 2011, 05:15:37 pm »
Maybe this is a place to share a question that popped into my head this weekend as I thought of my friends who next weekend will be seeing to the final disposition of all that remains of our dear Rodney:

What on earth were the Twists waiting for?

About the ashes, I mean.

I mean, it's more or less essential to the story that at the time of Ennis's visit, Jack's ashes have not yet been put to permanent rest. Yet presumably he's been dead for a while, and the Twists have had the ashes for a while, but they haven't yet put them in the family plot.

So what, I wonder, were they waiting for?  ???

Maybe it had something to do with John Twist's cussedness? Or maybe, considering the unexpectedness of Jack's death, they just weren't ready to "let go" and bury the ashes?

I dunno. Just spinning off thoughts here. ...  :-\
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #140 on: July 03, 2011, 11:28:53 pm »
Good question, friend. Just off the top of my head, I would say they were waiting for the proper season. Jack must have died in the fall...between August and November, and when Ennis went up to visit the Twists, Mrs. Twist was wearing a heavy sweater (in the movie though). I would guess they were waiting for the spring thaw, because you can't bury anything up in that neck of Wyoming until after it. The zigzag road to Lightning Flat was muddy, which we found out during the Roundup that it was muddy and impassable almost even in June.

'Nother thing is that Mrs. Twist moved carefully as if recovering from an injury, so maybe if she had been indisposed that might have kept them from doing the deed.

And perhaps they had been at loggerheads about it so there was an impasse.

And maybe Persephone and Demeter figure into the equation too.
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #141 on: July 05, 2011, 12:15:39 pm »
'Nother thing is that Mrs. Twist moved carefully as if recovering from an injury, so maybe if she had been indisposed that might have kept them from doing the deed.

I forgot about that, something about an operation, wasn't it? Maybe she had her gallbladder out, or something.  ;D

"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #142 on: August 17, 2012, 08:57:27 pm »
I'm thinking that the entire story is available on the web somewhere. I Googled "They were raised on small, poor ranches" (the first line) and here's one of the hits I got:

http://filmint.nu/?p=56
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Offline southendmd

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #143 on: August 18, 2012, 12:47:58 am »
Wow, Lee, that was some essay.  Thanks for finding it.  

I like this:

The story of Jack and Ennis, which reminds us of anguish and desire, of pleasure and grief, calls us to acknowledge human frailty and hope and urges us to try to be a little more knowing, a little more brave.

Offline Penthesilea

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #144 on: August 18, 2012, 05:58:03 pm »
What Paul said. :)

I've skimmed through it so far, and liked what I've read. I saved the whole thing (it's 20 pages long! :o) and converted it for my kindle. Looking forward to reading it thoroughly.
Thank you for finding and sharing.

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #145 on: October 13, 2012, 10:56:31 am »
What on earth were the Twists waiting for?

About the ashes, I mean.

I mean, it's more or less essential to the story that at the time of Ennis's visit, Jack's ashes have not yet been put to permanent rest. Yet presumably he's been dead for a while, and the Twists have had the ashes for a while, but they haven't yet put them in the family plot.

So what, I wonder, were they waiting for?  ???


Jeff, it is impossible to bury anything in the ground in that part of the world from the time of the first killing frost until the big thaw, which may not come until May!

But there are many other reasons. I read a couple of years ago that Matthew's ashes are still in a safe deposit box in Casper, Wyoming, and had not found their final resting place.
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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #146 on: August 29, 2013, 09:40:37 am »
In honor of Throwback Thursday, here is my sister moderator Brown Eyes' list of the meanings of the word pitch that was used in key places in the book. I heard  about a scientist who died recently who had a long-running experiment to prove that pitch, a solid, can drip like a liquid. The pitch had dripped eight times in the course of the experiment, which had started in the 1970s. Sadly, he never saw it actually drip.


1) a black or dark viscous substance obtained as a residue in the distillation of organic materials and esp. tars. (this is the very first definition of all that appear)
2) any of various various bituminous substances
etc.  several definitions along these lines

Here are some of the main verb definitions for "pitch":
1) to cover, smear or treat with or as with pitch
2)to erect and fix firmly in place
3) a) to throw usu. with a particular objective or toward a particular point {~ hay onto a wagon} (b) to throw {a baseball} to a batter (c) to toss so as to fall at or near a mark {a coin} (d) to put aside or discard by throwing
4) a) to cause to be at a particular level or of a particular quality. (b) to cause to be set at a particular angle
5) to utter glibly and insincerely
6) to use as a starting pitcher, to play as pitcher
7) to hit a golf ball in a high arc with backspin so that it rolls very little after striking the green

Here is a second, separate section of verb forms:
1) a) to fall precipitately or headlong :o It's almost like Annie was reading a dictionary when she was writing one particular BBM passage that we all know and love)
1) b) to have the bow of a ship alternately plunge precipitately and rise abruptly
1) c) to buck  :o
2) to encamp
3) to hit upon or happen upon something
4) to incline downward
5) to throw a ball to a batter

Here is the second section of noun forms:
1) the action of manner of pitching; esp. an up-and-down movement
2) slope (there are many subdefinitions of this)
3) top, zenith (archaic use)
4) a) the relative level, intensity, or extent of some quality or state. (b) the property of a sound and esp. a musical tone that is determined by the frequency of the waves producing it. (there is a lot more to this part of the definition)
5) a steep place
6) a playing field
7) an all-fours game in which the first card led is a trump. (  ??? I have no idea what that means!)
8) an often high pressure sales talk

etc., etc.

So, it seems that this word applies to tons of different themes, topics and concepts peppered throughout BBM in very many different contexts.  And, of course the term "to pitch" or "pitcher" also has a sexual slang meaning.
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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #147 on: January 10, 2015, 11:03:38 am »
Friend serious crayons, I noticed you were looking for a discussion of the tar-spreading scene a couple of years ago. I don't recollect such a discussion, but I did find Amazing Amanda's discussion of the many meanings of the word pitch. Here it is for you in case you are still looking after all this time!

This is a great topic Sister Mod!   The instance of this word that comes to my mind immediately is as a verb... in the sentence: " He wanted to be a sophomore, felt the word carried a kind of distinction, but the truck broke down short of it, pitching him directly into ranch work."

Now, looking at my dictionary (a leatherbound Webster's Ninth Collegiate Dictonary) it not only shows multiple definitions for the main word "pitch" (as a noun and a verb), but there are is almost 3/4 of a page full of words that contain the word "pitch" within them.  Some of the words listed that include the term "pitch" are: pitch-black, pitch-blende, pitch-dark, pitched battle, pitcher, pitcher plant, pitchfork, pitch in, pitchman, pitchout, pitch pine, pitch pipe, pitchstone, pitchwoman, and pitchy.

I'm going to highlight some of the definitions here that seem particularly interesting:

Here are some of the main noun definitions for the basic word "pitch".  My dictionary divides the noun section into two very distinct parts (interrupted by the section of definitions on the verb form... this is the first set of noun definitions):
1) a black or dark viscous substance obtained as a residue in the distillation of organic materials and esp. tars. (this is the very first definition of all that appear)
2) any of various various bituminous substances
etc.  several definitions along these lines

Here are some of the main verb definitions for "pitch":
1) to cover, smear or treat with or as with pitch
2)to erect and fix firmly in place
3) a) to throw usu. with a particular objective or toward a particular point {~ hay onto a wagon} (b) to throw {a baseball} to a batter (c) to toss so as to fall at or near a mark {a coin} (d) to put aside or discard by throwing
4) a) to cause to be at a particular level or of a particular quality. (b) to cause to be set at a particular angle
5) to utter glibly and insincerely
6) to use as a starting pitcher, to play as pitcher
7) to hit a golf ball in a high arc with backspin so that it rolls very little after striking the green

Here is a second, separate section of verb forms:
1) a) to fall precipitately or headlong :o It's almost like Annie was reading a dictionary when she was writing one particular BBM passage that we all know and love)
1) b) to have the bow of a ship alternately plunge precipitately and rise abruptly
1) c) to buck  :o
2) to encamp
3) to hit upon or happen upon something
4) to incline downward
5) to throw a ball to a batter

Here is the second section of noun forms:
1) the action of manner of pitching; esp. an up-and-down movement
2) slope (there are many subdefinitions of this)
3) top, zenith (archaic use)
4) a) the relative level, intensity, or extent of some quality or state. (b) the property of a sound and esp. a musical tone that is determined by the frequency of the waves producing it. (there is a lot more to this part of the definition)
5) a steep place
6) a playing field
7) an all-fours game in which the first card led is a trump. (  ??? I have no idea what that means!)
8) an often high pressure sales talk

etc., etc.

So, it seems that this word applies to tons of different themes, topics and concepts peppered throughout BBM in very many different contexts.  And, of course the term "to pitch" or "pitcher" also has a sexual slang meaning.

Definitely lots of food for thought!
:)

 
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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #148 on: February 19, 2015, 11:15:32 am »
A word with possibly an equal number of meanings as the word pitch is bean. How many explicit and inferred uses and meanings of the word bean have you found in Brokeback Mountain?

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