Author Topic: Female Sexuality in BBM  (Read 22991 times)

Offline Brown Eyes

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Female Sexuality in BBM
« on: March 15, 2007, 12:25:25 am »
I'm going to open up a *really* broad topic here.  But, the scene with Jack and Lureen in the back of the car has been on my mind a lot and it seems to come up for me in a number of different threads lately.  I think it's a particularly intriguing scene because it seems to be mostly about her desire and sexuality while Jack is sort of swept along by it.  She initiates a lot of the contact, she undresses herself, she's on top, etc.  This seems to be an extraordinary moment in the context of BBM because the movie is so much about the men's sexuality. 

So, I just wonder how people feel the movie treats the subject of female sexuality (again I know this is a big topic) when it comes to the main female characters in the film.  Lureen, Alma, Cassie, and Alma Jr. in the last scene.

I'll start with some "starter" questions/ obervations (beginning with my Lureen observation above).

Alma:
I think one of the more disturbing aspects of the story and film with regard to this topic is Ennis's persistence in having sex with Alma in "positions" that she does not like.  As much as I love Ennis, this is a really upsetting thing for me to deal with/ think about.  As much as I sympathize with his dilemma and his own pain, I think the way he treats Alma in bed is one of the worst aspects of his character.  And I don't recall this topic being hashed out in great depth too often.  So, I'd be interested in hearing what people have to say about this.

Cassie:
Maybe somewhat similar to the situation with Lureen, we get a sense that Cassie is sexually confident and bold.  She's not afraid to make first moves or ask guys to dance (as we see Lureen will do too).  But, it seems that the movie treats Lureen and Cassie differently when it comes to this topic, but it's hard for me to pinpoint how.  And, maybe both Cassie and Lureen are meant to illustrate different reactions to frustration.

Alma Jr.:
I always feel so sad at the end of the movie that Alma Jr. is getting married so young to a "roughneck".  I know I'm supposed to feel happy that she's in love, etc.  But, honestly, I feel sorry for her. I feel like she's shown to be trapped in a bit of a cycle of little opportunity and a narrow social sphere.  It's also interesting that Ennis doesn't ask Alma Jr. if she's in love... only whether Kurt loves her.  What's up with that?



And, this is a sort of selfish question about this topic for me... in a movie that's so much about exploring the nuances of the love between two men and gay male sexuality and the societal pressures put on those relationships (not just Jack and Ennis's but also Earl and Rich and even Randall in his situation), why is there seemingly no hint about gay female sexuality?
« Last Edit: March 15, 2007, 12:50:43 am by atz75 »
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Re: Female Sexuality in BBM
« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2007, 12:32:54 am »
Good topic, Amanda! I actually think there is a subcontext in the scene of the fundraising dance, in the interaction between LaShawn and Lureen. But maybe I'm reading things into it. Most of the credit for fleshing out the female characters in the movie needs to go to Larry McMurtry, to whom I doff my somewhat flattened straw cowboy hat. Who can forget the strong and slightly bent female characters he has created, starting with The Last Picture Show, moving on to Terms of Endearment, and now to Brokeback Mountain?!

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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Female Sexuality in BBM
« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2007, 12:37:08 am »
Good topic, Amanda! I actually think there is a subcontext in the scene of the fundraising dance, in the interaction between LaShawn and Lureen.

Hey Bud!

Wow you're fast.  I think you were posting this response as I was still editing my original post!  Yup, I used to try to read something into the interaction between LaShawn and Lureen too... but alas, now I think it was sort of wishful thinking on my part.  I feel sorry for LaShawn too.  Everyone picks on her, but she seems kind of sweet (maybe a little dense and of course talkative, but still sort of sweet).
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Offline Penthesilea

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Re: Female Sexuality in BBM
« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2007, 08:52:18 am »
I'm going to open up a *really* broad topic here.  But, the scene with Jack and Lureen in the back of the car has been on my mind a lot and it seems to come up for me in a number of different threads lately.  I think it's a particularly intriguing scene because it seems to be mostly about her desire and sexuality while Jack is sort of swept along by it.  She initiates a lot of the contact, she undresses herself, she's on top, etc.  This seems to be an extraordinary moment in the context of BBM because the movie is so much about the men's sexuality. 

So, I just wonder how people feel the movie treats the subject of female sexuality (again I know this is a big topic) when it comes to the main female characters in the film.  Lureen, Alma, Cassie, and Alma Jr. in the last scene.

I'll start with some "starter" questions/ obervations (beginning with my Lureen observation above).

Alma:
I think one of the more disturbing aspects of the story and film with regard to this topic is Ennis's persistence in having sex with Alma in "positions" that she does not like.  As much as I love Ennis, this is a really upsetting thing for me to deal with/ think about.  As much as I sympathize with his dilemma and his own pain, I think the way he treats Alma in bed is one of the worst aspects of his character.  And I don't recall this topic being hashed out in great depth too often.  So, I'd be interested in hearing what people have to say about this.

Cassie:
Maybe somewhat similar to the situation with Lureen, we get a sense that Cassie is sexually confident and bold.  She's not afraid to make first moves or ask guys to dance (as we see Lureen will do too).  But, it seems that the movie treats Lureen and Cassie differently when it comes to this topic, but it's hard for me to pinpoint how.  And, maybe both Cassie and Lureen are meant to illustrate different reactions to frustration.

Alma Jr.:
I always feel so sad at the end of the movie that Alma Jr. is getting married so young to a "roughneck".  I know I'm supposed to feel happy that she's in love, etc.  But, honestly, I feel sorry for her. I feel like she's shown to be trapped in a bit of a cycle of little opportunity and a narrow social sphere.  It's also interesting that Ennis doesn't ask Alma Jr. if she's in love... only whether Kurt loves her.  What's up with that?


Lureen:
" I think it's a particularly intriguing scene because it seems to be mostly about her desire and sexuality while Jack is sort of swept along by it." Well, I think Jack is not only swept along with it, but even kind of taken aback. "You really are in a hurry" (quoted from memory). He almost seems frightened/startled.
Lureen is clearly the pushing and aggressive one of the two. Which had sometimes led to the question if she had already been pregnant by the time of their first encounter. I don't buy this theory, but can imagine Bobby was the product of this first night.

Cassie and Lureen:
At first both Lureen and Cassie seem to be pretty self confident about their sexuality (and about themselves as persons). They know what they want and they take it. But both pick the wrong guy - and yet are willing to stick to him although their sexual life was not the most fulfilling, to say the least. For Lureen, we know that in the end it was non-existing. Cassie? Her and Ennis' sex life can't have been rich and enjoyable in the long haul, simply because he was gay. But I can't picture Cassie to let Ennis do to her what he did to Alma. Unless she wanted to. There are F/M couples who have anal sex. As long as both want it, why not?

Alma:
Oh my, poor Alma. She was so much a product of her time and place. A victim to that specific society as much as Ennis and Jack (more than Cassie and Lureen).
Very long ago we discussed her background, her (assumed) upbringing and the fact that she was downright "trained" to be the woman and wife she was. I believe she simply had not much awareness and therefore no high expectations in regard to her own sexuality and their sex life. Women were trained to obey their husbands, in daily life as well as in the bedroom. And so she let him do what she hated.

I also agree with you about Ennis. As much as I love him - this is too much. It's truly the only thing I hold against him. The fact that he was gay is an explantaion, but in no way an excuse. The only thing that can be said to his credit is (again) their time and upbringings. He was also raised in the believe that men had every right to do what they wanted with their wifes. Even if this was never explicit stated to him (in regard to sex), it was just how the world was, it was 'natural' and a matter of fact.

Quote
And, this is a sort of selfish question about this topic for me... in a movie that's so much about exploring the nuances of the love between two men and gay male sexuality and the societal pressures put on those relationships (not just Jack and Ennis's but also Earl and Rich and even Randall in his situation), why is there seemingly no hint about gay female sexuality?

That's a good question. My first thought was that it would have been "too much". But on the other side, Ang Lee is a master of subtle hints. He sure would have been able to work it into the movie just as a little, unobstrusive sidenote. Maybe he really did with the interaction between Lureen and LaShawn? I'm not decided about this.
 

Offline Penthesilea

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Re: Female Sexuality in BBM
« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2007, 11:12:57 am »
I apologize if this is repeating what was said in another thread...

Not that I know of. And even if so, there's no need to apologize. In 158 251 posts there are probably many things said more than once  ;D.

Quote
I'd be surprised if Ennis, in the early years of their marriage, knew she hated anal sex. We see her contorted face, he doesn't. And I'd guess there'd have been no more conversation about sex between the two of them at that point in the marriage than there was between story Ennis and Jack their first summer.

I think you're right about conversations about sex being non-existent. But in the movie, she says a pleading "Ennis, please...". I'm not sure which moment exactly she says it, but I think it's directly before he turns her over.
And the short story says: "...and he rolled her over, did quickly what she hated." Why would he do it quickly, if he didn't know that she hated it?
I believe they didn't talk about the sex and I think you are also right that she didn't tell him that she hated it. But he knew it nonetheless. He was good in 'not knowing' (=ignoring and denying) what he didn't want to know. But deep down he knew it.


Quote
I think it's telling that in the second sexual encounter between them that we see, Ennis doesn't even try to flip Alma over. She's apparently made her feelings clear by then. Which is consistent with the increasing attempts at directness and assertiveness she shows in other scenes.

Great observation. I think you're right that it is telling that Ang Lee chooses to show us the second sexual encounter the way he did, with Ennis not even trying to flip her over.
But for the story, I think it is a bit different. We know they did it both ways (anal and vaginal) from early on in their marriage. We know this from the mentioned scene, which is from their early years and from the fact that Alma got two babies so quickly and short after another.
And Proulx gives us the impression that it stayed this way during their whole marriage. This is from the end of their marriage (the slow corrosion and opening water):
Alma asked Ennis to use rubbers because she dreaded another pregnancy. (=vaginal sex) ...And under that, [Alma] thought, anyway, what you like to do don't make too many babies.(=anal sex)



Offline serious crayons

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Re: Female Sexuality in BBM
« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2007, 03:35:07 pm »
Cassie: Maybe somewhat similar to the situation with Lureen, we get a sense that Cassie is sexually confident and bold.  She's not afraid to make first moves or ask guys to dance (as we see Lureen will do too).  But, it seems that the movie treats Lureen and Cassie differently when it comes to this topic, but it's hard for me to pinpoint how.  And, maybe both Cassie and Lureen are meant to illustrate different reactions to frustration.

I'm sort of surprised that Cassie put up with Ennis for so long (if it really was five years, as the movie seems to indicate). She's beautiful, confident, bold ... and yet she puts up with a boyfriend who is so uninterested in their relationship that he doesn't mention it to his best friend, when he finally does discuss her sounds pretty indifferent, doesn't talk (unlike Carl!) and presumably isn't the greatest in bed. And not only does she put up with him, she fallls in love with him, chases after him when he starts to fade and is heartbroken when he dumps her!

Offline Penthesilea

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Re: Female Sexuality in BBM
« Reply #6 on: March 15, 2007, 05:06:50 pm »
(if it really was five years, as the movie seems to indicate).

Still unsolved, this one. Like you, I just don't believe it. For all the reasons you gave.
Additionally, I don't think Cassie would not have let him get away with dumping her just by playing dead. Not after five years. It contradicts sanity and reason. God-knows-what could have happened to Ennis (even if she knew he was alive from Steve). When you've been together for five f'in years, you would believe something bad must have happened to your loved one. So I think she would have sat on the steps of his trailer one evening he got home to finally know what's the matter.

Nope, I think it's not been five years. Or if Ossana/McMurtry/Lee deliberately made it five years (for whatever reason), they may have been wrong. One interpretation comes to my mind, that could be possible: they made it five years indeed deliberately to show poor communication between Ennis and Jack and how much unfathomed ground there was between them.

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Re: Female Sexuality in BBM
« Reply #7 on: March 15, 2007, 05:12:50 pm »
I'm sort of surprised that Cassie put up with Ennis for so long (if it really was five years, as the movie seems to indicate). She's beautiful, confident, bold ... and yet she puts up with a boyfriend who is so uninterested in their relationship that he doesn't mention it to his best friend, when he finally does discuss her sounds pretty indifferent, doesn't talk (unlike Carl!) and presumably isn't the greatest in bed. And not only does she put up with him, she fallls in love with him, chases after him when he starts to fade and is heartbroken when he dumps her!
Yes, but girls don't fall in love with fun, Katherine. (What's the matter with us??!)

If you'd been to that part of Wyoming, (as I recall you've been to Idaho, which is similar) you'd know why Cassie puts up with Ennis for five effen years. Marriageable guys are few and far between; in fact PEOPLE are few and far between (altho there's gettin to be a lot of roughnecks around there, but they're sequestered away on mancamps, LOL!)
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Female Sexuality in BBM
« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2007, 06:43:53 pm »
If you'd been to that part of Wyoming, (as I recall you've been to Idaho, which is similar) you'd know why Cassie puts up with Ennis for five effen years. Marriageable guys are few and far between; in fact PEOPLE are few and far between (altho there's gettin to be a lot of roughnecks around there, but they're sequestered away on mancamps, LOL!)

Well, when I lived in Idaho I was in the Ketchum/Sun Valley area, where there were lots of marriagable guys -- that is, if you don't mind transplanted California millionaires.  8)  (They actually looked quite a bit like that smiley!)

But I get your point.

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Re: Female Sexuality in BBM
« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2007, 06:49:19 pm »
Well, when I was in Sun Valley/Ketchum last, I remember there bein a lot of cokeheads!!

 :-\

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