Female Sexuality in BBM

[Front-Ranger]

I remember that scene because I still for the life of me can't figure it out!!

[nic]

Fascinating topic indeed.  I know we find it reprehensible that Alma submitted to anal sex but part of it was due to the era & culture of the location - even in otherwise loving relationships there was still the view that women yielded to men in the bedroom, whether that particular act or any sex act.  I would even go so far as to say that Alma was lucky to have Ennis attend to her needs first at all.  I'm not sure where he would have learnt about that - presumably from Alma herself in the early days of their relationship.  This is surprising to me, as was Lureen's confident sexuality given my preconceptions of the era & culture. 

[Front-Ranger]

This was during the early days of the birth control pill. Women were enjoying new freedom and assertiveness, and momentum was building for the feminist movement. I believe that the movie Peyton Place came out at this time. The character of Lureen was definitely accurate for this time period. In later years, there was a backlash against the feminists and a wave of puritanism has swept through the U.S. Things have definitely changed a lot and it's difficult for a young woman of today to imagine that era.

[nic]

I didn't think the pill had really reached the more traditional American states at that time even though it was out, especially smalltown places in Wyoming.  It is implied Alma & Ennis used condoms/anal sex for birth control & with Lureen it seems she got pregnant such that Jack had to marry her.  Hence I still expected both of them to have the more traditional hidden/repressed female sexuality - or are you saying that Alma & Lureen would have more open sexuality because they would be aware of what was happening in that arena even though they wouldn't have easy access to the pill themselves?

[LauraGigs]

Lureen might have been an only child, too...

Well Goadra, I think that's pertinent because it helps account for her confidence (and relative audacity some would say ).

There's a still from the "Blue Parka" scene that is striking to me. Although it's not framed the same in the film, she sits beneath a portrait of her father and they're very similarly dressed. http://www.bioscop.cz/_web/_filmy/b_zkrocena_hora/fotografie/nahledy_nejvetsi/115_zkrocena_hora.jpg
It is written that Elizabeth I did the same (positioning portraits of Henry VIII above her seat) to reinforce her lineage since the idea of her regency was so controversial.

Anyway, she + Jack are very similar in that they're high-spirited only children who aren't afraid to go after their dreams — no matter who may object.

[I've posted the following before; forgive me if you've seen this]

Some bemoan their "cold" marriage, but IMO they have it all wrong. She + Jack had symbiosis: he let her be who she wanted to be — and to an extent, vice versa. She didn't care about his lack of prospects, and gave him the means to earn a good living in his own right (thus he was able to tell LD, "this is my house". He wasn't interested, however, in taking over the business that was her birthright, as some men may have been.) Also, she doesn't expect him to live up to some masculine ideal and be anything that he's not. Many women of the time expected their husbands to "be a man" and might even have taken subtle swipes at his manhood if he weren't. (Madonna, asked about Sean Penn's jealous + controlling nature said, "at least he had the balls".) This isn't an issue to Lureen.

What is an issue of course, is Jack's baffling lack of attention. I agree that by the dance scene she may be in the process of putting pieces together, but is still basically in the dark (thus asking "Why . . . Jack?)

People tend to be hard on Lureen for some reason, as if not being primarily a homemaker means she had less of a heart. But she just wanted to be noticed and loved, like anybody else.

[serious crayons]

What is an issue of course, is Jack's baffling lack of attention. I agree that by the dance scene she may be in the process of putting pieces together, but is still basically in the dark (thus asking "Why . . . Jack?)

Though I always hear that line ("Why do you think that is, Jack?") as sort of a tease or taunt. That's why he feigns indifference and brushes it off like stray cigarette ashes.

People tend to be hard on Lureen for some reason, as if not being primarily a homemaker means she had less of a heart. But she just wanted to be noticed and loved, like anybody else.

Frankly, I always find it a little sexist when people accuse Lureen of not being a good wife and mother because she is so involved in the business. If the genders were reversed, I doubt anyone would say that. I think part of the reason Lureen throws herself into her work is because she's frustrated in her marriage. But I certainly don't blame -- as some people do -- any of their marital woes on her work habits. If Lureen were to quit her job, stay home to cook and clean and sew curtains, and greeted Jack every night wearing nothing but Saran wrap and holding a pitcher of martinis, they would still have marital problems.

[Brown Eyes]

Heya,

Wow, some great points have been raised recently.  It's really interesting to note that Jack and Lureen are both only children (or at least as far as we know regarding Lureen... and based on the family gathering at Thanksgiving).  It's also interesting that Bobby is an only child.  It sort of re-inforces that dynamic in the Twist-Newsome family I think.  (by the way, I'm an only child  ... for what it's worth).

Anyway, I really like Lureen and it's probably pretty clear from lots of my posts over time that I think that the marriage between Jack and Lureen was primarily based on a probably quite genuine friendship between them.  I like the term symbiosis, it seems pretty accurate.  Both Jack and Lureen were existing beyond the conventional gender norms for their times and their environment.  And, it is true that the marriage seemed to truly be one of "convenience" for both of them. 

It's interesting that other than Jack's suggestion in the motel with Ennis during the reunion, there's no real hint that Jack and Lureen contemplate divorce through the rest of the film.  I think that's quite a big clue to something.

Also, Lureen's relative kindness to Ennis on the phone (despite the traumatic circumstances and the major revelation she's having about the situation) is one of the things that makes me really love Lureen.

[nic]

I really like Lureen too.  However, as with Alma, I can't help a streak of negativity towards the wives relating to divorce.  If Alma had divorced Ennis earlier, could it have made a difference in his acceptance of Jack? And likewise with Lureen - even though her & Jack were good friends it was not really an ideal marriage so maybe if she'd suggested a divorce it could have spurred Jack to try harder with Ennis?  The endless "what ifs"!

...It's interesting that other than Jack's suggestion in the motel with Ennis during the reunion, there's no real hint that Jack and Lureen contemplate divorce through the rest of the film.  I think that's quite a big clue to something....

A clue to Lureen covering for Jack?  Do tell!

The only child thing (me too btw) - I think that was definitely because Lureen & Jack's physical relationship died away after the early years, & of course once a male heir was produced there would be less familial pressure to reproduce.   I do find it odd that Lureen didn't express more dis-satisfaction with the relationship, because she was clearly still young when the physical aspect to the relationship dropped off & very attractive, & she kept an interest in her looks implying she would still be interested in sex etc.  Maybe she had affairs & the continuing marriage helped her cover?

[LauraGigs]

If Alma had divorced Ennis earlier, could it have made a difference in his acceptance of Jack? And likewise with Lureen - even though her & Jack were good friends it was not really an ideal marriage so maybe if she'd suggested a divorce it could have spurred Jack to try harder with Ennis?

I don't think the responsibility would be on the wives to set the men free to chase a dream their wives had no clue about, would it?

The film makes it pretty clear that Ennis was so scarred from his upbringing that no extenuating circumstances in his adulthood would bring him around. After his divorce, he still preferred not to even be seen with Jack.

I do find it odd that Lureen didn't express more dis-satisfaction with the relationship

She does it plenty in the dance scene. Remember, this is Ang Lee: he's all about economy and subtlety.

Maybe she had affairs & the continuing marriage helped her cover?

She would appear much more blase' if that were the case. IMO the dance scene makes it clear that she's still interested in Jack and mystified in his disinterest.

[Brown Eyes]

A clue to Lureen covering for Jack?  Do tell!

Heya, well, I probably wouldn't go that far.  Or at least it doesn't seem like she probably understands the whole situation until the Ennis phone call.  So, she probably wasn't consciously covering for Jack.  I don't know what I mean to imply by noting that neither Jack nor Lureen seem to seriously contemplate divorce.  I think all I can say, is that on some level their marriage seems to work for both of them (even if it's simultaneously very frustrating on some other levels).