Author Topic: Friend's parents (mother) hated movie because there wasn't romance.  (Read 19526 times)

Offline Br. Patrick

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What was I to say to my friend who is comfortably hetero?  In Annie's book,  there is a great little scene where they cuddle and Jack slides his hand between Ennis' legs to warm them.  As far as the kissing went, the movie went WAY over the top compared to Annie's story.   But I, who have seen the film 5 times, had to agree with them.   I would have liked to see more romanctic scenes.  Ennis COULD do it even if it wasn't in his dominant nature.  Forces of Nature can be tender too.  I really think this is a stage of filmmaking history where more and more gay characters will be allowed to be themselves.   That is, themselves as written, tee hee.

peace
Lean on me, let our hearts beat in time,
Feel strength from the hands that have held you so long.
Who cares where we go on this rugged old road
In a world that may say that we're wrong.

...Cause I know - A love that will never grow old.

Gustavo Santaolalla & Bernie Taupin

Offline Lynne

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Re: Friend's parents (mother) hated movie because there wasn't romance.
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2006, 05:01:25 pm »
I thought there was plenty of romance, much of it initiated by Ennis, but it's subtle so you have to look for it.  Some examples
1) Ennis comes to Jack in the second tent scene with his hat in hand - very courtly, romantic.
2) After they've 'untangled the Chilean sheep', Ennis smiles at Jack with so much affection as he teases him about the harmonica~'you'll run the sheep off again'
3) the reunion, the nuzzle
4) the motel scene, holding each other, Jack whispering to Ennis
5) the final night after 'Sometimes I miss you so bad...', Ennis holding Jack in the tent.
I'll be putting this on my shelf next to Casablanca  ;)


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Offline Phillip Dampier

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Re: Friend's parents (mother) hated movie because there wasn't romance.
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2006, 07:56:05 pm »
I thought there was plenty of romance, much of it initiated by Ennis, but it's subtle so you have to look for it.

If there was more romance, I'm sure we'd be hearing even more nonsense about how this is a propaganda movie to promote the gay agenda, whatever that is.  Heck, the sex scenes weren't even that explicit.  I see worse on pay cable every night.

My hope is that BBM opens the door to more gay-themed movies, hopefully as deep and well thought out.
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Offline Br. Patrick

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Re: Friend's parents (mother) hated movie because there wasn't romance.
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2006, 04:07:22 am »
I thought there was plenty of romance, much of it initiated by Ennis, but it's subtle so you have to look for it.  Some examples
1) Ennis comes to Jack in the second tent scene with his hat in hand - very courtly, romantic.

I sure agree with you there.  It makes me cry - really hard.  I only wish there was more light.   On the Internet, frames from this scene are out there and they have been digitally lightened.   There is also a GIF loop of this scene out there.  I have collected over 220 pictures.  I forgot where I got them.

Thanks for your thoughts!

« Last Edit: March 04, 2006, 02:41:19 pm by Phillip »
Lean on me, let our hearts beat in time,
Feel strength from the hands that have held you so long.
Who cares where we go on this rugged old road
In a world that may say that we're wrong.

...Cause I know - A love that will never grow old.

Gustavo Santaolalla & Bernie Taupin

Offline Aussie Chris

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Re: Friend's parents (mother) hated movie because there wasn't romance.
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2006, 07:45:10 am »
I thought there was plenty of romance, much of it initiated by Ennis, but it's subtle so you have to look for it...

Thanks for posting this lynne, there have been many posts from people (I mean in imdb) who to one extent or the other want to say that Jack = loving/romantic, and Ennis = rejecting/cold; and then there's also the book versus film comparisons.  Once again I wonder if these people were watching the same film as I was.  I guess I was guilty of this too, at first.  When I first saw BBM I couldn't see past Ennis' denial, but to my great and pleasant surprise, subsequent viewings revealed the depth of Ennis' affection for Jack and how often he demonstrates it.  One such (not so subtle demonstration) that you didn't mention was when Ennis was waiting for Jack, prior the reunion scene.  He sits at the window, nervously waiting and fiddling with his lighter.  The book even says that he was waring his best shirt for this occasion.  And when Jack arrives, he bounds down the stairs, two and three at a time, and it was he (Ennis) that initiates the passionate reunion kiss.

But when it comes to the film and book comparison, these are also completely lost on me since I see them as one and the same.  All the little extra bits in the short story (and there's not that much) seep through into my mind when I watch the film, and of course, vice versa when I read the book.  Actually, the majority of the things that were left out or changed from the book I am grateful for, since there were a couple of references to the physical reality of the sex that I think would have been distracting if they were filmed.  For this I am so glad we had Ang Lee at the helm rather than, say, Gus Van Sant.  Could you imagine BBM filmed in the style of My Own Private Idaho???  Hmmm, yes I can too and it's a scary thought.

Ok, so back to the topic of romance.  Now I'm going to be a little bit sexist here, but not with the intention of putting anyone down or to be discriminatory.  I think that males and females may see BBM differently because they come from different perspectives.  I mean I love a good "chick-flick" as well, but there are some (that many women love) like Beaches and Divine Secrets of the Ya-Ya Sisterhood that I just can't get into, and I put this down to my perspective and the fact that I can't relate to them.  IMO the romance in those films is lost on me because they relate more to women than they do to men.  So I wonder how the detractors define "romance"?  When I look at BBM I see mountains (sorry for the pun) of romance, just buried under layers and layers of repression.  But really, it is this repression that is the central point of the film, the root cause of all the characters' misery, and ultimately the final tragedy.  People who want to change elements of the film, the way it ends, or even the depictions of sex and emotion, I feel they're wasting their time, and it's about as pointless as complaining that Romeo & Juliet would be a better if it wasn't so, well, Shakespearean!

The silly sods, I don't think they can see the forest for the trees.
Nothing is as common as the wish to be remarkable - William Shakespeare

Offline BBMGrandma

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Re: Friend's parents (mother) hated movie because there wasn't romance.
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2006, 08:55:47 am »
wow....little old hetero granny here...and I think this movie was seeped with romance.  When Jack cups Ennis' face in his hands....after tossing his hat aside...<in the tent before they kiss> Jack has a look on his face like NONE I've ever seen before.  I literally SWOOON when I see his face...his eyes...his lips. 

When they FIRST meet at the trailer....and Jack leans back against his truck....shifting his hips....hand looped in his belt....well....WHEW!!!  Seduction to the nth degree!!!

When Ennis drags Jack up to his house to meet Alma....he has the look of a kid in a candy shop.  His LOVE is there...besides him.  SUCH romance....!!!

I LOVE the tight lipped 'look' that Ennis gives to Jack....as they HUG after their four year wait. Ennis pulls back just a bit...and GRINS as big as he's able!!   PURE romance....that grin!!   

And YES YES....Lynne....when Ennis enters that tent....hat covering himself....it's pure romance...submission to his LOVE.    Jack tosses the hat away.....then cups Ennis' cheek....OMG OMG 

The visible excitement Ennis shows...when he gets the postcard from Jack....saying he's coming to town.  He gets flustered....excited...!! 

If people miss the beautifully subtle nuances of romance in the film....they will NEVER 'get it'
 You either do.....or you don't.  I don't think there's any in-between. 
Nancy 

I agree Chris....'silly sods'   ;)
"If we never dream....we'll never have a dream come true"   (me...myself...and I)

Offline Lynne

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Re: Friend's parents (mother) hated movie because there wasn't romance.
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2006, 12:43:35 pm »
Yes, I just listed the 5 romantic moments that came to mind first...no need to post the entire 250 with this group here :-)  I think it's true that people 'get it' or they don't, and it's equally true that of those that do 'get it' have deeper impressions with subsequent viewings.

I initially thought that the first tent scene was abrupt, violent event after my first viewing - it disturbed me on a visceral level even though the second tent scene went a long way to mitigate that.  It wasn't until viewings 2 and 3 that I was able to fully appreciate all the subtle moments leading to tent scene 1.

Here is some trivia about mainstream ladies' romance that might interest some (BBMGrandma? and Phillip?).  Suzanne Brockmann (www.suzannebrockmann.com) is writing contemporary women's fiction today and is extremely popular in that segment.  She started out with the Harlequin shorter novels and is now publishing longer, complex hardbacks.  Her son Jason is gay and she has done a terrific job creating some gay characters in her current works...the book Hot Target was dedicated to Jason and her Jules Cassidy character (gay badass FBI agent) has a major subplot.  What I find extremely encouraging is the clamour from her dedicated readers for Jules to have a happily-ever-after of his own.  This demographic has to be primarily comprised of middle America.  From her message boards I know that she did lose some readers by taking up this cause (her reaction was pretty much 'good riddance'); however, the positive feedback far outweighs the negative.

-Lynne
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Offline Phillip Dampier

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Re: Friend's parents (mother) hated movie because there wasn't romance.
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2006, 02:50:51 pm »
I thought there was plenty of romance, much of it initiated by Ennis, but it's subtle so you have to look for it...

But when it comes to the film and book comparison, these are also completely lost on me since I see them as one and the same.  All the little extra bits in the short story (and there's not that much) seep through into my mind when I watch the film, and of course, vice versa when I read the book.  Actually, the majority of the things that were left out or changed from the book I am grateful for, since there were a couple of references to the physical reality of the sex that I think would have been distracting if they were filmed.  For this I am so glad we had Ang Lee at the helm rather than, say, Gus Van Sant.  Could you imagine BBM filmed in the style of My Own Private Idaho???  Hmmm, yes I can too and it's a scary thought.

They have been running Idaho on the pay cable networks again.  We saw it in the theater and, once again, another movie that depicted guys getting by through male prostitution.  This after Less Than Zero, parts of which turned out to be prophetic for Morton Downey, Jr.

In watching Idaho again, I was reminded how long it took to get the "My little Dutch Boy" scenes out of my head the first time around.

As I said before, what was so unique about BBM is that the characters isolated their sexuality exclusively to themselves (excepting a few of Jack's flings.)  Most of the time, these films end up with the interloper/best friend character who pushes the character development along and acts as the on-screen cheerleader, perhaps at the audience's behest.  I loved the Will & Grace reference someone made earlier in the forums.  Could you imagine the best friends butt in scenes for Jack and Ennis?  Jack has a straight woman best friend and Ennis has Junior dragging them around.  Egads.

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Offline Phillip Dampier

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Re: Friend's parents (mother) hated movie because there wasn't romance.
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2006, 02:59:18 pm »
What I find extremely encouraging is the clamour from her dedicated readers for Jules to have a happily-ever-after of his own.  This demographic has to be primarily comprised of middle America.  From her message boards I know that she did lose some readers by taking up this cause (her reaction was pretty much 'good riddance'); however, the positive feedback far outweighs the negative.

I wonder how much of this has to do with the lack of daring on the TV shows that depict gay characters.  It's always the same thing - Friends done with gay people and straight women.  No relationship ever seems to come out of these shows, and for a long time, Will & Grace was simply a gay man consoling his straight female roomate.  No significant romance, no lovemaking, just wisecracks.

I don't object to Will & Grace because it is a funny show, but it's not really groundbreaking, anymore than pay cable's efforts, starting with Showtime back in the 1980s with a de-sexed gay male lead.

At the other extreme has been Queer as Folk which I also can't relate to at all.  It's a drama volcano, and I can't relate to the drugging, clubbing, sexual fast lane, that these character live.  In fact, my life more closely resembles the lesbian couple on there.  It's definitely far less dramatic and focused on going out.  My life is probably not dramatic enough for a TV show.  It would have to have Bob Newhart in it making ironic side comments. :) 
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Offline Rayn

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To me, Brokeback Mountain was one of the most romantic movies I have ever seen!  You can disagree, but it won't change what I see in the movie and want to see, again and again.  I love the film just as it is.

Rayn

PS: There is a often big difference in how Gay and Non Gay people see and respond to the movie.  There is also sometimes a difference in how men and women see it too, but not always.