Author Topic: Friend's parents (mother) hated movie because there wasn't romance.  (Read 19520 times)

Offline Br. Patrick

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What was I to say to my friend who is comfortably hetero?  In Annie's book,  there is a great little scene where they cuddle and Jack slides his hand between Ennis' legs to warm them.  As far as the kissing went, the movie went WAY over the top compared to Annie's story.   But I, who have seen the film 5 times, had to agree with them.   I would have liked to see more romanctic scenes.  Ennis COULD do it even if it wasn't in his dominant nature.  Forces of Nature can be tender too.  I really think this is a stage of filmmaking history where more and more gay characters will be allowed to be themselves.   That is, themselves as written, tee hee.

peace
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Offline Lynne

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Re: Friend's parents (mother) hated movie because there wasn't romance.
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2006, 05:01:25 pm »
I thought there was plenty of romance, much of it initiated by Ennis, but it's subtle so you have to look for it.  Some examples
1) Ennis comes to Jack in the second tent scene with his hat in hand - very courtly, romantic.
2) After they've 'untangled the Chilean sheep', Ennis smiles at Jack with so much affection as he teases him about the harmonica~'you'll run the sheep off again'
3) the reunion, the nuzzle
4) the motel scene, holding each other, Jack whispering to Ennis
5) the final night after 'Sometimes I miss you so bad...', Ennis holding Jack in the tent.
I'll be putting this on my shelf next to Casablanca  ;)


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Offline Phillip Dampier

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Re: Friend's parents (mother) hated movie because there wasn't romance.
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2006, 07:56:05 pm »
I thought there was plenty of romance, much of it initiated by Ennis, but it's subtle so you have to look for it.

If there was more romance, I'm sure we'd be hearing even more nonsense about how this is a propaganda movie to promote the gay agenda, whatever that is.  Heck, the sex scenes weren't even that explicit.  I see worse on pay cable every night.

My hope is that BBM opens the door to more gay-themed movies, hopefully as deep and well thought out.
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Offline Br. Patrick

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Re: Friend's parents (mother) hated movie because there wasn't romance.
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2006, 04:07:22 am »
I thought there was plenty of romance, much of it initiated by Ennis, but it's subtle so you have to look for it.  Some examples
1) Ennis comes to Jack in the second tent scene with his hat in hand - very courtly, romantic.

I sure agree with you there.  It makes me cry - really hard.  I only wish there was more light.   On the Internet, frames from this scene are out there and they have been digitally lightened.   There is also a GIF loop of this scene out there.  I have collected over 220 pictures.  I forgot where I got them.

Thanks for your thoughts!

« Last Edit: March 04, 2006, 02:41:19 pm by Phillip »
Lean on me, let our hearts beat in time,
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Gustavo Santaolalla & Bernie Taupin

Offline Aussie Chris

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Re: Friend's parents (mother) hated movie because there wasn't romance.
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2006, 07:45:10 am »
I thought there was plenty of romance, much of it initiated by Ennis, but it's subtle so you have to look for it...

Thanks for posting this lynne, there have been many posts from people (I mean in imdb) who to one extent or the other want to say that Jack = loving/romantic, and Ennis = rejecting/cold; and then there's also the book versus film comparisons.  Once again I wonder if these people were watching the same film as I was.  I guess I was guilty of this too, at first.  When I first saw BBM I couldn't see past Ennis' denial, but to my great and pleasant surprise, subsequent viewings revealed the depth of Ennis' affection for Jack and how often he demonstrates it.  One such (not so subtle demonstration) that you didn't mention was when Ennis was waiting for Jack, prior the reunion scene.  He sits at the window, nervously waiting and fiddling with his lighter.  The book even says that he was waring his best shirt for this occasion.  And when Jack arrives, he bounds down the stairs, two and three at a time, and it was he (Ennis) that initiates the passionate reunion kiss.

But when it comes to the film and book comparison, these are also completely lost on me since I see them as one and the same.  All the little extra bits in the short story (and there's not that much) seep through into my mind when I watch the film, and of course, vice versa when I read the book.  Actually, the majority of the things that were left out or changed from the book I am grateful for, since there were a couple of references to the physical reality of the sex that I think would have been distracting if they were filmed.  For this I am so glad we had Ang Lee at the helm rather than, say, Gus Van Sant.  Could you imagine BBM filmed in the style of My Own Private Idaho???  Hmmm, yes I can too and it's a scary thought.

Ok, so back to the topic of romance.  Now I'm going to be a little bit sexist here, but not with the intention of putting anyone down or to be discriminatory.  I think that males and females may see BBM differently because they come from different perspectives.  I mean I love a good "chick-flick" as well, but there are some (that many women love) like Beaches and Divine Secrets of the Ya-Ya Sisterhood that I just can't get into, and I put this down to my perspective and the fact that I can't relate to them.  IMO the romance in those films is lost on me because they relate more to women than they do to men.  So I wonder how the detractors define "romance"?  When I look at BBM I see mountains (sorry for the pun) of romance, just buried under layers and layers of repression.  But really, it is this repression that is the central point of the film, the root cause of all the characters' misery, and ultimately the final tragedy.  People who want to change elements of the film, the way it ends, or even the depictions of sex and emotion, I feel they're wasting their time, and it's about as pointless as complaining that Romeo & Juliet would be a better if it wasn't so, well, Shakespearean!

The silly sods, I don't think they can see the forest for the trees.
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Offline BBMGrandma

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Re: Friend's parents (mother) hated movie because there wasn't romance.
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2006, 08:55:47 am »
wow....little old hetero granny here...and I think this movie was seeped with romance.  When Jack cups Ennis' face in his hands....after tossing his hat aside...<in the tent before they kiss> Jack has a look on his face like NONE I've ever seen before.  I literally SWOOON when I see his face...his eyes...his lips. 

When they FIRST meet at the trailer....and Jack leans back against his truck....shifting his hips....hand looped in his belt....well....WHEW!!!  Seduction to the nth degree!!!

When Ennis drags Jack up to his house to meet Alma....he has the look of a kid in a candy shop.  His LOVE is there...besides him.  SUCH romance....!!!

I LOVE the tight lipped 'look' that Ennis gives to Jack....as they HUG after their four year wait. Ennis pulls back just a bit...and GRINS as big as he's able!!   PURE romance....that grin!!   

And YES YES....Lynne....when Ennis enters that tent....hat covering himself....it's pure romance...submission to his LOVE.    Jack tosses the hat away.....then cups Ennis' cheek....OMG OMG 

The visible excitement Ennis shows...when he gets the postcard from Jack....saying he's coming to town.  He gets flustered....excited...!! 

If people miss the beautifully subtle nuances of romance in the film....they will NEVER 'get it'
 You either do.....or you don't.  I don't think there's any in-between. 
Nancy 

I agree Chris....'silly sods'   ;)
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Offline Lynne

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Re: Friend's parents (mother) hated movie because there wasn't romance.
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2006, 12:43:35 pm »
Yes, I just listed the 5 romantic moments that came to mind first...no need to post the entire 250 with this group here :-)  I think it's true that people 'get it' or they don't, and it's equally true that of those that do 'get it' have deeper impressions with subsequent viewings.

I initially thought that the first tent scene was abrupt, violent event after my first viewing - it disturbed me on a visceral level even though the second tent scene went a long way to mitigate that.  It wasn't until viewings 2 and 3 that I was able to fully appreciate all the subtle moments leading to tent scene 1.

Here is some trivia about mainstream ladies' romance that might interest some (BBMGrandma? and Phillip?).  Suzanne Brockmann (www.suzannebrockmann.com) is writing contemporary women's fiction today and is extremely popular in that segment.  She started out with the Harlequin shorter novels and is now publishing longer, complex hardbacks.  Her son Jason is gay and she has done a terrific job creating some gay characters in her current works...the book Hot Target was dedicated to Jason and her Jules Cassidy character (gay badass FBI agent) has a major subplot.  What I find extremely encouraging is the clamour from her dedicated readers for Jules to have a happily-ever-after of his own.  This demographic has to be primarily comprised of middle America.  From her message boards I know that she did lose some readers by taking up this cause (her reaction was pretty much 'good riddance'); however, the positive feedback far outweighs the negative.

-Lynne
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Offline Phillip Dampier

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Re: Friend's parents (mother) hated movie because there wasn't romance.
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2006, 02:50:51 pm »
I thought there was plenty of romance, much of it initiated by Ennis, but it's subtle so you have to look for it...

But when it comes to the film and book comparison, these are also completely lost on me since I see them as one and the same.  All the little extra bits in the short story (and there's not that much) seep through into my mind when I watch the film, and of course, vice versa when I read the book.  Actually, the majority of the things that were left out or changed from the book I am grateful for, since there were a couple of references to the physical reality of the sex that I think would have been distracting if they were filmed.  For this I am so glad we had Ang Lee at the helm rather than, say, Gus Van Sant.  Could you imagine BBM filmed in the style of My Own Private Idaho???  Hmmm, yes I can too and it's a scary thought.

They have been running Idaho on the pay cable networks again.  We saw it in the theater and, once again, another movie that depicted guys getting by through male prostitution.  This after Less Than Zero, parts of which turned out to be prophetic for Morton Downey, Jr.

In watching Idaho again, I was reminded how long it took to get the "My little Dutch Boy" scenes out of my head the first time around.

As I said before, what was so unique about BBM is that the characters isolated their sexuality exclusively to themselves (excepting a few of Jack's flings.)  Most of the time, these films end up with the interloper/best friend character who pushes the character development along and acts as the on-screen cheerleader, perhaps at the audience's behest.  I loved the Will & Grace reference someone made earlier in the forums.  Could you imagine the best friends butt in scenes for Jack and Ennis?  Jack has a straight woman best friend and Ennis has Junior dragging them around.  Egads.

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Offline Phillip Dampier

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Re: Friend's parents (mother) hated movie because there wasn't romance.
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2006, 02:59:18 pm »
What I find extremely encouraging is the clamour from her dedicated readers for Jules to have a happily-ever-after of his own.  This demographic has to be primarily comprised of middle America.  From her message boards I know that she did lose some readers by taking up this cause (her reaction was pretty much 'good riddance'); however, the positive feedback far outweighs the negative.

I wonder how much of this has to do with the lack of daring on the TV shows that depict gay characters.  It's always the same thing - Friends done with gay people and straight women.  No relationship ever seems to come out of these shows, and for a long time, Will & Grace was simply a gay man consoling his straight female roomate.  No significant romance, no lovemaking, just wisecracks.

I don't object to Will & Grace because it is a funny show, but it's not really groundbreaking, anymore than pay cable's efforts, starting with Showtime back in the 1980s with a de-sexed gay male lead.

At the other extreme has been Queer as Folk which I also can't relate to at all.  It's a drama volcano, and I can't relate to the drugging, clubbing, sexual fast lane, that these character live.  In fact, my life more closely resembles the lesbian couple on there.  It's definitely far less dramatic and focused on going out.  My life is probably not dramatic enough for a TV show.  It would have to have Bob Newhart in it making ironic side comments. :) 
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Offline Rayn

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To me, Brokeback Mountain was one of the most romantic movies I have ever seen!  You can disagree, but it won't change what I see in the movie and want to see, again and again.  I love the film just as it is.

Rayn

PS: There is a often big difference in how Gay and Non Gay people see and respond to the movie.  There is also sometimes a difference in how men and women see it too, but not always.

Offline starboardlight

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Re: Friend's parents (mother) hated movie because there wasn't romance.
« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2006, 01:39:03 pm »
for me, the courtship was very subtle. it had to be to make sense. gay men who haven't come to term or are still closeted don't wear their feelings on their sleeves. they come out in subtle ways for self preservation. For me the there was even more romance because despite the societal constraint, they still found little ways to show tenderness and love to one another.
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Offline ednbarby

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Re: Friend's parents (mother) hated movie because there wasn't romance.
« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2006, 03:39:05 pm »
Exactly, Nipith.  And just how *are* two poor, male ranch hands in early-60s Wyoming - one of whom hasn't even begun to except his own homosexuality - supposed to flirt, by the way?

Dumbass mules.

I agree with Rayn and Lynne and Nancy - I think this is about the most romantic movie I've ever seen, because not only does it capture how these particular people *really* would relate to and fall in love with one another, it captures how pretty much all the rest of us fall in love, too.  I guess it's just too realistic for people with Instant Gratification Mentality Disorder to comprehend.

You said it, Nancy - either people get it or they don't.  And as I said to Diane last night, I actually have two classifications of people in my psyche now, kind of like that Woody Allen character Judy Davis played once thought of people as being either hedgehogs or foxes - Brokies and non-Brokies.  Tell ya what - turns out I can like a non-Brokie - to a point, anyway.  It turns out both my own parents fall into that classification, after all.  But I can't dislike a Brokie.
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Friend's parents (mother) hated movie because there wasn't romance.
« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2006, 06:46:07 pm »
I'd go so far as to say that it's the subtlety that MAKES it romantic. Over-the-top romance quickly gets sentimental, turning the emotions cheap and unbelievable. This movie is never sentimental, so the emotions seem authentic. And because of all the attempted repression, by both Ennis and Jack (in different ways), when you DO see any hint of emotion you know it must be very powerful.

Offline DecaturTxCowboy

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Re: Friend's parents (mother) hated movie because there wasn't romance.
« Reply #13 on: May 12, 2006, 07:57:26 pm »
I'm just lamenting the missed opportunities for a wildfire, a few bar room brawls, and car, err..pickup chase.

Ya ever see a 2 ton dually with a roll bar flip over...they bounces!

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Take it like a man - steady and strong, not a lot of fuss and carring on.  True to a promise, I can ride in any storm.  So bend over and take it like a man...Too much of a good thing is a good thing.

Offline starboardlight

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Re: Friend's parents (mother) hated movie because there wasn't romance.
« Reply #14 on: May 12, 2006, 10:22:19 pm »
truth is, I never thought of this movie as being "romantic". I guess I'm just jaded with the word, as I associate it with walking on the beach during sunsets and candle lit dinners.
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Re: Friend's parents (mother) hated movie because there wasn't romance.
« Reply #15 on: May 12, 2006, 10:42:59 pm »
To me, Brokeback Mountain was one of the most romantic movies I have ever seen!  You can disagree, but it won't change what I see in the movie and want to see, again and again.  I love the film just as it is.

Rayn

PS: There is a often big difference in how Gay and Non Gay people see and respond to the movie.  There is also sometimes a difference in how men and women see it too, but not always.

Oh, I have noticed a whole lot of differences in the way that gay men from the middle state rural areas of the USA see it than those in the larger cities on the coasts, too.

I also have noticed that many gay men seem to see the movie even differently than gay women do.


Offline serious crayons

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Re: Friend's parents (mother) hated movie because there wasn't romance.
« Reply #16 on: May 12, 2006, 11:46:52 pm »
truth is, I never thought of this movie as being "romantic". I guess I'm just jaded with the word, as I associate it with walking on the beach during sunsets and candle lit dinners.

I know what you mean, starboardlight. So maybe we need a new word for a movie in which the viewer gets so invested in the couple that it's wrenching at the end, not just because one dies, but because they never fulfilled their potential as a couple. I can't remember any other recent movies in which I really cared that much one way or another.

Offline silkncense

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Re: Friend's parents (mother) hated movie because there wasn't romance.
« Reply #17 on: May 13, 2006, 12:44:07 pm »
Quote
  I guess it's just too realistic for people with Instant Gratification Mentality Disorder to comprehend.

You said it, Nancy - either people get it or they don't.

Couldn't agree more.  Unfortunately, it seems that the majority of people fall into the latter category.  I still do not understand why, however.



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Offline Rayn

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Re: Friend's parents (mother) hated movie because there wasn't romance.
« Reply #18 on: May 15, 2006, 10:23:54 am »
truth is, I never thought of this movie as being "romantic". I guess I'm just jaded with the word, as I associate it with walking on the beach during sunsets and candle lit dinners.


Ok, well romantic is many things to many folks. 

See, ridin' a horse in the mountians, pitchin' a tent, choppin' wood, fishin' a bit, sittin' telling fireside stories and drinkin' a bit and hopefully, layin' in a lover's arms or him layin' in mine is about as romantic as it gets for me! 

Walkin' a beach at sunset is damn fine too, but I'm a mountain man from way back and a camper... and there's nothin' better than camping with a loved one.

Brokeback Mountain is romantic because it's REAL!    Reality, the beauty of the earth, knowing one's place in nature and sharing that with another...  That's real romance, to me.   

Romance and Reality don't always run against one another.

Rayn
« Last Edit: May 15, 2006, 10:26:50 am by Rayn »

Offline ednbarby

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Re: Friend's parents (mother) hated movie because there wasn't romance.
« Reply #19 on: May 15, 2006, 10:55:36 am »

Ok, well romantic is many things to many folks. 

See, ridin' a horse in the mountians, pitchin' a tent, choppin' wood, fishin' a bit, sittin' telling fireside stories and drinkin' a bit and hopefully, layin' in a lover's arms or him layin' in mine is about as romantic as it gets for me! 

Walkin' a beach at sunset is damn fine too, but I'm a mountain man from way back and a camper... and there's nothin' better than camping with a loved one.

Brokeback Mountain is romantic because it's REAL!    Reality, the beauty of the earth, knowing one's place in nature and sharing that with another...  That's real romance, to me.   

Romance and Reality don't always run against one another.

Rayn

I agree, Rayn.  It depends on your definition of romance, I guess.  To me, someone is doing something romantic when he's going above and beyond to appeal to/be with his beloved.  Both Jack and Ennis took risks in order to be together even on the unfulfilling level they were ultimately together.  Jack was I guess more romantic than Ennis - he proposed to him, basically, for godssake.  He laid it all out there, only to be disappointed again and again.  And to have kept those shirts like he did all those years!  Hell.  Ain't nothin' more romantic than that.
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Offline Rayn

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Re: Friend's parents (mother) hated movie because there wasn't romance.
« Reply #20 on: May 15, 2006, 11:40:20 am »
...someone is doing something romantic when he's going above and beyond to appeal to/be with his beloved. 

 Jack was I guess more romantic than Ennis - he proposed to him, basically, for godssake.  He laid it all out there, only to be disappointed again and again.  And to have kept those shirts like he did all those years!  Hell.  Ain't nothin' more romantic than that.


Yes, what a wonderful way to put it too, ednbarby,"going above and beyond to appeal to/be with his beloved."   So true.

Jack was the more romantic.   But I'll tell you what... Jack's heart and mind tell us a whole lot about Annie P.   Now there's a mightly romantic woman... am I right?   Romantic but in touch with reality.  I bet she is and I love her for being that way.

Rayn

Offline starboardlight

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Re: Friend's parents (mother) hated movie because there wasn't romance.
« Reply #21 on: May 15, 2006, 02:13:17 pm »
... And to have kept those shirts like he did all those years!  Hell.  Ain't nothin' more romantic than that.

that's true. that certainly restored my faith in Love.
"To do is to be." Socrates. - "To be is to do." Plato. - "Do be do be do" Sinatra.

Offline ednbarby

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Re: Friend's parents (mother) hated movie because there wasn't romance.
« Reply #22 on: May 15, 2006, 02:21:29 pm »
My heart skips a beat with every viewing when Ennis says, "I can't believe I left my damn shirt up there," and Jack says, "...Yeah."
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Offline Rayn

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Re: Friend's parents (mother) hated movie because there wasn't romance.
« Reply #23 on: May 16, 2006, 02:43:44 am »
My heart skips a beat with every viewing when Ennis says, "I can't believe I left my damn shirt up there," and Jack says, "...Yeah."


I know, mine does too, ednbarby!  I love Jack, what a sweet guy.


Rayn

Offline wolf

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Re: Friend's parents (mother) hated movie because there wasn't romance.
« Reply #24 on: May 17, 2006, 12:33:29 am »
Howdy Brokies  :)

Just found this forum and have enjoyed an hour or so of reading your thought provoking posts!

I'm been a member of Dave Cullen's forum for a few months now, and saw a reference to bettermost there.  Had to check it out  :D.

Tell you what, truth is, it's the most romantic story (in whichever medium) in the known universe.  I keep coming across friends of friends who found it unromantic and frankly, the mind boggles.  I do this  :o, every time I hear the complaint.  Were they anaesthetised before going in?  Synapse problems?  WTF!

It's searingly, acheingly, jawdroppingly romantic.  Something about the way men 'do' romance is deeply compelling.  It's the very contrariness of it, I think, tho that theory needs a little work.  Rather than romantic vulnerability hinting at emasculation, these two seem to be at the height of their masculinity.  Experiencing it fully, as it were.  We're so unaccustomed to seeing, or in fact ALLOWING, men to be fully male, that some (the dumbass mules) don't even recognise the unique beauty of the male expression of love when they see it.

Back to yer beans  ;)


Offline ednbarby

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Re: Friend's parents (mother) hated movie because there wasn't romance.
« Reply #25 on: May 17, 2006, 09:06:32 am »
Howdy Brokies  :)

Just found this forum and have enjoyed an hour or so of reading your thought provoking posts!

I'm been a member of Dave Cullen's forum for a few months now, and saw a reference to bettermost there.  Had to check it out  :D.

Tell you what, truth is, it's the most romantic story (in whichever medium) in the known universe.  I keep coming across friends of friends who found it unromantic and frankly, the mind boggles.  I do this  :o, every time I hear the complaint.  Were they anaesthetised before going in?  Synapse problems?  WTF!

It's searingly, acheingly, jawdroppingly romantic.  Something about the way men 'do' romance is deeply compelling.  It's the very contrariness of it, I think, tho that theory needs a little work.  Rather than romantic vulnerability hinting at emasculation, these two seem to be at the height of their masculinity.  Experiencing it fully, as it were.  We're so unaccustomed to seeing, or in fact ALLOWING, men to be fully male, that some (the dumbass mules) don't even recognise the unique beauty of the male expression of love when they see it.

Back to yer beans  ;)



I get the feeling that this is the beginning of a beautiful friendship.  I hope you'll take off your hat and stay a while, Wolf.  I like the way you think.  Great minds and all that.  :)
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Offline Aussie Chris

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Re: Friend's parents (mother) hated movie because there wasn't romance.
« Reply #26 on: May 17, 2006, 10:17:19 am »
It's searingly, acheingly, jawdroppingly romantic.  Something about the way men 'do' romance is deeply compelling.  It's the very contrariness of it, I think, tho that theory needs a little work.  Rather than romantic vulnerability hinting at emasculation, these two seem to be at the height of their masculinity.  Experiencing it fully, as it were.  We're so unaccustomed to seeing, or in fact ALLOWING, men to be fully male, that some (the dumbass mules) don't even recognise the unique beauty of the male expression of love when they see it.

Definitely Wolf, agree 100% with Barb, I like the cut of your jib, you are so very welcome here! :D
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Offline wolf

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Re: Friend's parents (mother) hated movie because there wasn't romance.
« Reply #27 on: May 17, 2006, 09:03:25 pm »
Aussie Chris,

First up, aww shucks  :).  Wonder if our mutual jib cut appreciation (yeah, I've read a few of your posts  ;)) has geographical roots?, she says from her perch in eastcoast Australia.

Back to blokes - I'm deeply enamoured of the way men love (as a straight chick, that'd make sense  :P), and have long felt a distinct lack of artistic renderings of same.  Film, when love is a central theme, is invariably FEMALE, on every level.  Brokeback gave us, I think for the first time, a look into the emotional life of men.  How Ms Proulx accessed that particular animal, I'll never know, but thank god she did!

W

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Friend's parents (mother) hated movie because there wasn't romance.
« Reply #28 on: May 17, 2006, 09:28:28 pm »
Back to blokes - I'm deeply enamoured of the way men love (as a straight chick, that'd make sense  :P), and have long felt a distinct lack of artistic renderings of same.  Film, when love is a central theme, is invariably FEMALE, on every level.  Brokeback gave us, I think for the first time, a look into the emotional life of men.  How Ms Proulx accessed that particular animal, I'll never know, but thank god she did!

Hey Wolf, you put this very well, and also in your previous post. I fotally agree, and it's one of my favorite subjects. If you get a chance, I hope you take a look at the "why is this movie so romantic?" thread. I would love to see that thread revitalized (um, and not just because I started it!  ::)), and it sounds like you could contribute some really interesting ideas!

Here it is:
http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php?topic=1101.0

Offline Aussie Chris

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Re: Friend's parents (mother) hated movie because there wasn't romance.
« Reply #29 on: May 17, 2006, 09:37:34 pm »
Wonder if our mutual jib cut appreciation (yeah, I've read a few of your posts  ;)) has geographical roots?, she says from her perch in eastcoast Australia.

Well compared to Wyoming, we're practically neighbours - being perched south-easterly myself (Melbourne)! ;)
« Last Edit: May 18, 2006, 02:40:44 am by Aussie Chris »
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Offline Aussie Chris

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Re: Friend's parents (mother) hated movie because there wasn't romance.
« Reply #30 on: May 17, 2006, 10:56:50 pm »
Biblically speaking, "ahavah," the Hebrew noun for "love," is definitely feminine in gender. Even "rakham," the Hebrew word for "compassion," is feminine. "Rakham" is also the Hebrew word for "womb" or "uterus."

And this has to do with?...
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Re: Friend's parents (mother) hated movie because there wasn't romance.
« Reply #31 on: May 17, 2006, 11:36:42 pm »
AC (Aussie Chris), aha!  Something about the way you write says "Melbourne", dunno how I missed that  :laugh:.  Despite my alarming proximity to Sydney, I never fail to marvel over the difference betwixt the two cities.  Sydney folk are so ....... gormless.

latjoreme, thanks, will check out the thread you linked.  love a good chat ;).

Joe Allen Doty, thanks for the hebrew lesson.  my uterus has alot to answer for. 

w

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Re: Friend's parents (mother) hated movie because there wasn't romance.
« Reply #32 on: May 18, 2006, 02:46:32 am »
Joe Allen Doty, thanks for the hebrew lesson.  my uterus has alot to answer for. 

 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
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Re: Friend's parents (mother) hated movie because there wasn't romance.
« Reply #34 on: May 18, 2006, 10:47:22 pm »
JAD (Joe Allen Doty),

agreed.  real life romance isn't owned by one gender (tho my husband would beg to differ), but mainstream cinematic and/or literary romance is almost exclusively uterine.  just adds to my 'work in progress' notion that the contemporary male is in an emasculation crisis. 

for me, that's part of the magic of Brokeback.  Jack and Ennis were 'primary' males when they fell in love.  they could be authentic men because they were far from the stultifying (women), castrating (women), strictures (women) of the modern human world. 

on that note, I'm off to clean the toilet  :)

w


Offline Aussie Chris

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Re: Friend's parents (mother) hated movie because there wasn't romance.
« Reply #35 on: May 19, 2006, 12:18:12 am »
agreed.  real life romance isn't owned by one gender (tho my husband would beg to differ), but mainstream cinematic and/or literary romance is almost exclusively uterine.  just adds to my 'work in progress' notion that the contemporary male is in an emasculation crisis. 

Wow wolf, I enjoy listening to you, hitting those nails on the head the way you do.  That's one thing that I'm grateful about being gay: "phew, at least I don't have to pretend to be "masculine" any more, that's really hard".  I've actually got a couple of straight friends that are more advanced in their self-perception so they don't feel they have to act "extra-straight" around me, nevertheless I see them struggle with it from time to time and I pity them.

In the regard of romance being the monopoly of women, well I think we've actually been shifting away from this for some time, and now cracks are forming in this way of thinking - thank God!
« Last Edit: May 19, 2006, 09:41:55 am by Aussie Chris »
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Re: Friend's parents (mother) hated movie because there wasn't romance.
« Reply #36 on: May 21, 2006, 09:41:22 pm »
Aussie Chris,

Thanks for yr noice words, mate.  I do so enjoy a bit of monday morning flattery!

Believe me when I tell you for every nail I might or might not hit on the head, my thumb cops double.  All part of the journey.

Gee willikers, fancy feeling the need to uber-straight just because yr in company with a gay man  :o.  that's a good example of the 'crisis' I'm referring to.  All that muddled, jumbled, damned if you do, damned if you don't stuff the average male is plagued with.  And I don't think it's exclusively the preserve of straight men, tho given their heavier reliance on women, it may be 'worse' for them.   

On romance, I think yr right in that the tide may be slowly turning.  Has a LONG way to go, but the rumblings are there.   About time blokes got a look in.

I'm off to reconfigure the living room in readiness for my 70 year old, born-again Christian father's visit and Brokeback viewing.   To move sofa closer to tv, thus enhancing nuance and sensualities, or move it further away, giving him a 'comfort zone' for the awkward moments.  The pressing question du jour!

W

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Re: Friend's parents (mother) hated movie because there wasn't romance.
« Reply #37 on: May 22, 2006, 07:13:25 am »
I'm off to reconfigure the living room in readiness for my 70 year old, born-again Christian father's visit and Brokeback viewing.   To move sofa closer to tv, thus enhancing nuance and sensualities, or move it further away, giving him a 'comfort zone' for the awkward moments.  The pressing question du jour!

OMG, you having a lend?  Does he at least know what he's in for?  You HAVE to tell us how it goes! ;)
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Offline silkncense

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Re: Friend's parents (mother) hated movie because there wasn't romance.
« Reply #38 on: May 22, 2006, 11:01:56 am »
I definitely vote for
Quote
enhancing nuance and sensualities
.
"……when I think of him, I just can't keep from crying…because he was a friend of mine…"

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Re: Friend's parents (mother) hated movie because there wasn't romance.
« Reply #39 on: May 22, 2006, 09:45:20 pm »
No lend at all.  He's specifically, and pointedly, requested a viewing  :o.  And he's aware of the glistening manlove factor, which makes me go  :o even harder. 

Seriously, despite dad's ostensibly firm stance on matters gay (as proscribed by his version of christianity), he can't hide his raving lefty, liberal pettycoats.  He spent far more years doing life alternatively than he's done it pentacostally (now there's a BBM coinkidink).  Will indeed, report in full  ;).

silkncense, thanks for yr vote!  will be dragging sofa north for close up enjoyment  :P.

W


Offline serious crayons

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Re: Friend's parents (mother) hated movie because there wasn't romance.
« Reply #40 on: May 23, 2006, 12:01:47 am »
What's a lend? It's fun getting the chance to learn all these Aussieisms.

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Re: Friend's parents (mother) hated movie because there wasn't romance.
« Reply #41 on: May 23, 2006, 01:04:23 pm »
After reading al this pleasantness, I don't think my English is up to this thread, but I'll have a go anyway ;)
As far as the romance thing goes, I do regret that there wasn't more intimacy during the final years of their affair. There's a scene in the book where Jack brakes the seal on a bottle of whiskey, takes a long, hot swallow and says 'That's one a the two things I need right now'. I would have loved to hear him say that.
However, it was Ang Lee's intention to let the viewer be as frustrated as Jack and Ennis were themselves, and, boy did that work! I was frustrated, angry, upset and very very sad.
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Friend's parents (mother) hated movie because there wasn't romance.
« Reply #42 on: May 23, 2006, 01:40:18 pm »
After reading al this pleasantness, I don't think my English is up to this thread, but I'll have a go anyway ;)
As far as the romance thing goes, I do regret that there wasn't more intimacy during the final years of their affair. There's a scene in the book where Jack brakes the seal on a bottle of whiskey, takes a long, hot swallow and says 'That's one a the two things I need right now'. I would have loved to hear him say that.
However, it was Ang Lee's intention to let the viewer be as frustrated as Jack and Ennis were themselves, and, boy did that work! I was frustrated, angry, upset and very very sad.


Somehow I suspect that wasn't the problem for the friend's mother -- the one in the title of the thread -- who complained about lack of romance. But I totally agree with you, belbbmfan. That's one thing I'm sorry they changed in going from story to screen -- in the story, Annie makes it clear their sex life is great all the way up to the end. Which may well be the case in the movie, too, but where's our share?

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Re: Friend's parents (mother) hated movie because there wasn't romance.
« Reply #43 on: May 23, 2006, 08:33:47 pm »
latjoreme,

"having a lend" is an old Australian and English expression meaning "are you taking the piss?", or "are you joking?", or alternatively, you can use it in the same way as "just kidding", by saying "just having a lend of you".  interesting to note that it's not in common use today, at least by younger folk.  it's very much a 'granddad' type of expression, and what would have been considered 'working class' vernacular, tho it's oddly popular with a subset of the 35-60 demographic.  we use it at my house all the time, tho we have friends who look at us like this  ::) when we say it.

belbbmfan,

I remember the line from the book you mention.  I recall it had a deliciously sexy 'tone' to it.  indeed it would have been lovely to see it said on screen, but no matter how much the base me would have loved more 'action', I'm forever grateful that Ang exercised the restraint he did.  the longing was as much ours as theirs, and for me at least, served to amplify the 'romance' dramatically.  and BTW, your English is spot on  :).

hmmm ..... I have a 'day off' today.  think I might throw the boys into the machine and sit still for 134 minutes.

w

Offline Aussie Chris

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Re: Friend's parents (mother) hated movie because there wasn't romance.
« Reply #44 on: May 24, 2006, 05:20:47 am »
"having a lend" is an old Australian and English expression meaning "are you taking the piss?", or "are you joking?", or alternatively, you can use it in the same way as "just kidding", by saying "just having a lend of you".  interesting to note that it's not in common use today, at least by younger folk.  it's very much a 'granddad' type of expression, and what would have been considered 'working class' vernacular, tho it's oddly popular with a subset of the 35-60 demographic.  we use it at my house all the time, tho we have friends who look at us like this  ::) when we say it.

Ok, so let's see if I got this straight.  I am either being compared to, or flat out being called: old, a 'granddad', and 'working class'.  Well all I can say to that is Strewth, Crikey, and Blimey Charlie!

As far as the romance thing goes, I do regret that there wasn't more intimacy during the final years of their affair. There's a scene in the book where Jack brakes the seal on a bottle of whiskey, takes a long, hot swallow and says 'That's one a the two things I need right now'. I would have loved to hear him say that.

Hmmmm, this is such a great line belbbmfan, I so agree with this.  I think it's my favourite line that didn't make it into the film.  I don't mind that the others were removed/changed, it's understandable given the direction, but this one makes me feel... ooh I don't know... naughty!  Makes me think about that second thing! ;)
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Friend's parents (mother) hated movie because there wasn't romance.
« Reply #45 on: May 24, 2006, 12:54:56 pm »
"having a lend" is an old Australian and English expression meaning "are you taking the piss?", or "are you joking?"

Thanks for the explanation, Wolf. But it brings up a whole new question. Do you guys say "are you taking the piss?" to mean "are you joking?" That's a new one for me, too.

Well all I can say to that is Strewth

And Chris, LOL, you said "strewth" once before and I wondered if it was a misprint or a real word or what. I was  going to ask you about it at the time and then thought better of it, recalling my cluelessness about "check your chubby" or whatever it was, a phrase I guess I should have known.

Anyway, as far as Australian idioms go, sorry to be so ignorant, you guys, but it's fun learnin em.

Now back to topic. I sure wish Ang had given us some more evidence of how "the brilliant charge of their infrequent couplings" never changed through the years. I know, I know, he's trying to make us feel their pain. But the way it comes out it almost suggests just the opposite. From the reunion on, we only see them even so much as touching each other in that one final two-second tent scene, and then they're clothed and sleeping.

                               :-\                        >:(                         :'(                         :(

Offline belbbmfan

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Re: Friend's parents (mother) hated movie because there wasn't romance.
« Reply #46 on: May 24, 2006, 01:15:12 pm »
exactly latjoreme.
I'm thinking about one of their last fishing trips where they're riding the horses through the river. Jack just looked so sad, tired, as he did in the Final Lake Scene. Over on IMDB, there have been fierce discussions about the fact that at the end, Jack was ready to quit Ennis (hence his 'I did once'). I found that an unbearable thought! As Annie said 'You can't have Jack without Ennis'. Damn!
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Offline wolf

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Re: Friend's parents (mother) hated movie because there wasn't romance.
« Reply #47 on: May 24, 2006, 10:58:02 pm »
latjoreme, sorry, yes, 'are you taking the piss' is the same as 'are you joking'.  I'll let Chris have a lend of you regarding 'strewth'  ;).  I take it you're available for exhanges of idiom, in the meantime.  I have some questions brewing!

Chris, mate, if you're a granddad then I'm a grandma.  working class indeed ...... snicker snicker snort snort.  and by the way, you forgot 'by jingoes'.

looks like we're all agreed that The Second Thing line is a corker.  might give it a test drive and see if it has the same naughty when said by a 42 yr old housefrau, to her tired hubby, right in the middle of The Soccer - exchanging the whiskey-straight-from-the-bottle for sleepytime-tea-in-a-flora-mug.  Saucy!.

W

Offline Aussie Chris

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Re: Friend's parents (mother) hated movie because there wasn't romance.
« Reply #48 on: May 25, 2006, 09:27:02 am »
I'm thinking about one of their last fishing trips where they're riding the horses through the river. Jack just looked so sad, tired, as he did in the Final Lake Scene. Over on IMDB, there have been fierce discussions about the fact that at the end, Jack was ready to quit Ennis (hence his 'I did once'). I found that an unbearable thought! As Annie said 'You can't have Jack without Ennis'. Damn!

I agree belbbmfan, and I go so far to say that in spit of the Randall thing, Jack would never have quit Ennis.  The argument was the turning point but we never get to see how their relationship might have panned out if Jack hadn't died.  One thing we do know from the short story is that they torqued back the way they were after Ennis breaks down ("nothing resolved" and all that).  I don't think "I did once" confirms anything.  You're certainly right about how sad Jack looks when riding horses, Ennis doesn't look much happier, but then again he never really does!
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Friend's parents (mother) hated movie because there wasn't romance.
« Reply #49 on: May 25, 2006, 09:46:34 am »
Ennis doesn't look much happier, but then again he never really does!

I'm sorry to keep disputing you, Chris, but yes he does! He almost always looks happy around Jack (and vise versa), which is why this sequence is so disturbing. Otherwise, much of the time on Brokeback, at the reunion, in the scene where he's getting out of the truck at their campsite and Jack's already there. Even in the post-divorce scene, his eyes light up when Jack appears, though of course he looks a lot less happy by the end of the scene.

Offline Aussie Chris

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Re: Friend's parents (mother) hated movie because there wasn't romance.
« Reply #50 on: May 25, 2006, 09:56:21 am »
I'm sorry to keep disputing you...

Stop telling fibs, you love it admit it! ;D

Yeah you're right of course.  Strangely my mind went into the scene with Jack on the horses onwards and all I remember is the sadness.  I think you can tell how watching BBM last night has made me feel today?  I just realised how melancholy I feel.  Anyway *shakes it off* yes Ennis only really looks happy when he is with Jack, especially the reunion and sending up a prayer of thanks. :)
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Offline belbbmfan

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Re: Friend's parents (mother) hated movie because there wasn't romance.
« Reply #51 on: May 25, 2006, 11:54:44 am »
A question about the 'sending up a prayer' scene. After Ennis says 'we can get together once in a while', Jack asks 'For how long?' I thought this was a kind of odd question to ask to someone as you've basically just agreed to start/continue a secret love affair.
Off course Ennis' answer was the only one that could be given, 'as long as we can ride it'

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Offline YaadPyar

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Re: Friend's parents (mother) hated movie because there wasn't romance.
« Reply #52 on: May 25, 2006, 12:08:16 pm »

I mean I love a good "chick-flick" as well, but there are some (that many women love) like Beaches and Divine Secrets of the Ya-Ya Sisterhood that I just can't get into, and I put this down to my perspective and the fact that I can't relate to them.  IMO the romance in those films is lost on me because they relate more to women than they do to men.  So I wonder how the detractors define "romance"?  When I look at BBM I see mountains (sorry for the pun) of romance, just buried under layers and layers of repression.  But really, it is this repression that is the central point of the film, the root cause of all the characters' misery, and ultimately the final tragedy. 


Wow, Chris - you live on the edge!  OK, ok, ok - chic flicks.  I get what you're saying, but Beaches and Ya-Ya as cultural touchstones for how women define romance?!?   I can't even begin to go there...  It's like saying that women are comfortable with maudlin sentimentality masquarading as romance, intimacy and connection.  That women like a movie with mediocre writing or acting as long as there's plenty of emoting.  I won't slam these movies as there may be some here who relate to them, but one thing we all have in common here is how deeply BBM touched us. 

We (none of us) didn't need obvious romance triggers as exhibited by standard chic-flick fare to tell us how to feel about Jack and Ennis, or we wouldn't be here at BetterMost having this conversation.  I would guess everyone here felt the incredible power and connection betweent Jack and Ennis, and we felt it in the story and in the movie, and didn't need 'chic-flik' tears and exposition and emotionality to see it.  I get that men and women think/feel differently, but gender doesn't discriminate in recognizing emotional truth presented so honestly and powerfully. 

I think chic-flicks and chic-lit (and now lad-lit, etc.), do such a disservice by convincing everyone that gender stereotypes reflect some universal emotional reality.  Maybe they reflect a reality of what happens when one is defined by materialism and the media, but dig a little deeper, and a lot of that silliness falls away.
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Offline YaadPyar

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Re: Friend's parents (mother) hated movie because there wasn't romance.
« Reply #53 on: May 25, 2006, 12:10:57 pm »
A question about the 'sending up a prayer' scene. After Ennis says 'we can get together once in a while', Jack asks 'For how long?' I thought this was a kind of odd question to ask to someone as you've basically just agreed to start/continue a secret love affair.
Off course Ennis' answer was the only one that could be given, 'as long as we can ride it'



I see Jack's question in the context of him having waited 4 long years to have Ennis confirm that their love, their relationship, was as real and important as he had felt all along, and he couldn't bear to walk away again like he did after the first summer.  He didn't want to lose any more time with the love of his life.
"Vice, Virtue. It's best not to be too moral. You cheat yourself out of too much life. Aim above morality. If you apply that to life, then you're bound to live life fully." (Harold & Maude - 1971)

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Friend's parents (mother) hated movie because there wasn't romance.
« Reply #54 on: May 25, 2006, 12:46:45 pm »
Wow, Chris - you live on the edge!  OK, ok, ok - chic flicks.  I get what you're saying, but Beaches and Ya-Ya as cultural touchstones for how women define romance?!?   I can't even begin to go there...  It's like saying that women are comfortable with maudlin sentimentality masquarading as romance, intimacy and connection.  That women like a movie with mediocre writing or acting as long as there's plenty of emoting.  I won't slam these movies as there may be some here who relate to them, but one thing we all have in common here is how deeply BBM touched us.

I know Chris can defend himself, but since it must be the middle of the night in Australia I feel compelled to step in. Actually, Celeste, I was about to jump all over Chris for this one, too. But then it occurred to me that someone likes Beaches and Ya-Yas, and it's certainly not men. (I had some 20-something male painters working at my house last summer and one day I overheard one of them tell the other, incredulously, "Yeah, so when I got home last night she was actually watching Beaches!!") I'm hoping that what Chris meant is not that all women like Beaches but that all Beaches fans are women.

Sadly, I do think there are plenty of "women who are comfortable with maudlin sentimentality masquerading as romance," just as there are plenty of  men who define seeing buildings and people get blown up (dick flicks) as some high quality entertainment. But clearly members of the BetterMost community (and plenty of others) don't fit into either of those categories.

I myself will confess to frequently liking movies that many would classify as "chick flicks" -- ie, light romantic comedies. I couldn't drag my husband there in a million years (he's not a blow-em-up guy, either; he likes very few movies, in fact, but when he does they're usually about politics or history of labor unions or something.) I try to read reviews closely enough to distinguish between good chick flicks and bad (maudlin) chick flicks and avoid the latter.

Actually I don't like the term "chick flicks" at all because, like chick LIT, it tends to ghettoize movies/books for and about women, many of which should appeal to audiences of both genders. (Like, is Friends With Money a chick flick? A lot of people would say yes, simply because the main characters are chicks and the director's a chick -- even though it's not very romantic, more like a Woody Allen film with women.)

Offline YaadPyar

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Re: Friend's parents (mother) hated movie because there wasn't romance.
« Reply #55 on: May 25, 2006, 01:14:35 pm »
I can't wait to hear what Chris has to say when he gets back here...

 ;)
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Offline SFEnnisSF

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Re: Friend's parents (mother) hated movie because there wasn't romance.
« Reply #56 on: May 25, 2006, 06:49:41 pm »
There's a great thread on TOB about this:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0388795/board/flat/44193921