Author Topic: Ennis and Jake are homosexuals, bi-sexuals or??  (Read 28609 times)

Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: Ennis and Jake are homosexuals, bi-sexuals or??
« Reply #30 on: March 25, 2007, 03:49:28 pm »
To me, bisexual means attracted to both women and men, not able to function with both.
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Offline brokebackjack

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Re: Ennis and Jake are homosexuals, bi-sexuals or??
« Reply #31 on: March 25, 2007, 04:01:38 pm »
For me its much more black and white. If you sleep with men exclusively you are homosexual (Gay). If you sleep with Women you are Heterosexual. If you are sexually able to have sex with both genders you are bi sexual. (weather or not you choose to admit it). Its a very simple concept to me.

Ross, simplify it some more!

If you are really bi, and really honest with yourself, you have to KNOW that a genuinely bisexual man can fall in love with a PERSON regardless of their sex.
 
Absolutely regardless of their sex.

If Ennis was bi...what was the problem? He could have stuck with Alma, had non-anal sex, met with Jack up on Brokeback and possibly had the best of both worlds. If he was bi he would have fallen for Cassie: that woman was a female Jack yet he had no interest whatsoever.

If Jack was bi, he would have loved Lureen--or another woman--as deeply as Ennis. Even if not, he would have been able to hold a balance. He was not. He patently had no interest in M/F sex OR in having any woman aside from Lureen... who was a fond convenience. He had no interest in any women aside from his titular marriage. Jack liked FELLAS, and a fella named ENNIS over any other man alive..Ennis liked JACK. Just Jack. Wanted no one else male or female.

And that my friend is that.

{And this is where i may get in trouble with our mod, because I know of no way to explain this aside from personally--if this is waaay OT, feel free to remove it! It's been years since I've heard stuff like this...I HOPE it isn't too disjointed or rambling}

That, my friend, is the key: the ability to fall in love, a love which has  equal depth regardless of whether it's directed towards Jimmy or Juanita. If you can't do that, a man who sleeps with men and women can have or be:

A)   The morals and fastidiousness of a goat.
B)    Fall towards one side or the other, but not in the middle.If you can't fall in love with either, then someone is not bisexual,  someone is pushing the extremes of hetero or pushing the envelope of gay. You have to be able to fall in love regardless of the sex of the person you're sleeping with.
C)    A male with the depth of a puddle and a 13 year old boys obsession with orgasm

Sex is just that: sex. The sex act does not define the bisexual male's personality. In a certain way, the sex--no matter how aroused--is meaningless; if you can't fall in love AND MEAN IT a person is using the term bisexual because it's easier then saying he's  gay or a str8 boy checking it out..[ I am not in this particular paragraph speaking about harmless recreational sex, either.]

When you come down to it in a lot of ways it would have been so much easier to be a non-conflicted young straight lad. SOOOO much easier. It would have been so much easier to have been an avowedly homosexual young GAY lad. Harder, but still easier then to be a bi boy.

Why??

Easy.
 
There was Nobody to talk with.

If you're straight you can talk with thousands, if you're gay you can talk with hundreds. If you're born bi there is virtually NOBODY. As time went on I met other young bi kids. We all had the same problem: no place to fit, no place to go, no idea of what we were and very very confused by having the hots for girls with cute butts and boys with hot bulges.Who the devil does your average bi 16 year old discuss that with??? You fit NOwhere. It was the blind leading the blind. I made my own rules of behaviour, these blended well  the actual inborn sense of who and what i was, and the same can be said of the few friends who were the same. We met each other in the ODDEST ways, too---a beach, a study hall, having a physical fight which both stopped because each recognised...something which somehow  knew was inthe other.

 Every one was a  teenaged misfit. Cool...but different. Nerdy...but different. Quiet. Boisterous. Didn't matter, all were loners and supremely distrustful of others' motives with REASON. I. detested older gay men and supposed straight guys who were pigs. My kid I was closest too detested cool straight dudes, and he was cooler then they were.

As we got older we met men who claimed they were bi, and had the morals of pigs. They would marry and sleep with anything they wanted regardless of the consequences to a wife. They would have gay relationships with a committed partner and sleep with women. These guys had not an ounce of integrity. My friends and I had mad hormones, yet these guys were revolting and we were appalled because they were known as bi. WE thought they were simple opportunistic pigs with the morals of goats and ran in the other direction. They thought they were gods, without saying so. They merely ACTED that way. Rules of any sort within a relationship did not apply, nor did they ever really give a damned about anybody but themselves.

As time went on these screw-whatever-moved guys either died of disease or slid to one side or the other. Looking back, they actually WERE the opportunistic pigs with morals of goats that a bunch of 16-17-18 year old boys THOUGHT they were.

As I got just slightly older, I had a huge break. I developed  a problem of sorts and  older gay men got interested in helping this completely impossible stand-offish arrogant brat [aka, me ] deal with that problem lol.   Absolute altruism on their parts combined with enormous honesty. I'd have never settled down if it wasn't for those guys--hell, who else was willing to take the time. I got some of my friends to join 'us';one had the same problem and also got help for it while the others ended up spending Sunday afternoons with a group of old gay farts for years.

At heart we baffled these guys. All of these older men were gay gay gay, all of them had had sex with women and all of them said it was essentially meaningless. Most were partnered, or had been, for long years. There was no way they would describe themselves as bisexual, there was no way we would describe ourselves as gay.

They did not relate.

I remember well, one day long conversation where everybody baffled everybody else completely. How could they only like men? How could WE like women? How could we combine the two? The resulting decision was we had been born that way. We were not like most [MOST] of the other guys they knew who said they were bi. We differed in one giant aspect, namely that we could and did fall in love with women or men and were happy. I bracketed the word most. That's because they knew a very small number of men  who COULD fall in love like that and DID describe themselves as bi. Outside of relationships we had fun, in them we did not screw around. Two of us were naturally mono, the others, 2 I think did so because they thought it worked, and 1 did so because he was afraid of turning into one of THOSE. ALL of us, to this day, know a guy is bi not by what he does in bed but by with whom he has the ability to fall in love.

Who can you fall deeply in love with? Does it matter if they are a woman? Does it matter if it's a man? Are the bonds just as deep? I feel very sorry for any male who says he is bi and won't/can't answer those to himself. Why? means he has a lot of hell ahead of him.

I've been in love 2 x's, once with each, the sex did not matter, the person did. The actual sex was as satisfyingly passionate with the guy as it was on BBM, the sex with the woman is none of your business, I married her. But I wouldn't trade it for anything.

and this is way long.
"I couldn't stand it no more so i fixed it"

Offline brokebackjack

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Re: Ennis and Jake are homosexuals, bi-sexuals or??
« Reply #32 on: March 25, 2007, 04:27:18 pm »
You can't. hence the bisexual moniker.  ;D

ROSS!!!!!!


You DO have humor!!!!!


lolol
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Offline RossInIllinois

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Re: Ennis and Jake are homosexuals, bi-sexuals or??
« Reply #33 on: March 25, 2007, 05:33:34 pm »
Ross, simplify it some more!

If you are really bi, and really honest with yourself, you have to KNOW that a genuinely bisexual man can fall in love with a PERSON regardless of their sex.
 
Absolutely regardless of their sex.

If Ennis was bi...what was the problem? He could have stuck with Alma, had non-anal sex, met with Jack up on Brokeback and possibly had the best of both worlds. If he was bi he would have fallen for Cassie: that woman was a female Jack yet he had no interest whatsoever.

If Jack was bi, he would have loved Lureen--or another woman--as deeply as Ennis. Even if not, he would have been able to hold a balance. He was not. He patently had no interest in M/F sex OR in having any woman aside from Lureen... who was a fond convenience. He had no interest in any women aside from his titular marriage. Jack liked FELLAS, and a fella named ENNIS over any other man alive..Ennis liked JACK. Just Jack. Wanted no one else male or female.

And that my friend is that.

{And this is where i may get in trouble with our mod, because I know of no way to explain this aside from personally--if this is waaay OT, feel free to remove it! It's been years since I've heard stuff like this...I HOPE it isn't too disjointed or rambling}

That, my friend, is the key: the ability to fall in love, a love which has  equal depth regardless of whether it's directed towards Jimmy or Juanita. If you can't do that, a man who sleeps with men and women can have or be:

A)   The morals and fastidiousness of a goat.
B)    Fall towards one side or the other, but not in the middle.If you can't fall in love with either, then someone is not bisexual,  someone is pushing the extremes of hetero or pushing the envelope of gay. You have to be able to fall in love regardless of the sex of the person you're sleeping with.
C)    A male with the depth of a puddle and a 13 year old boys obsession with orgasm

Sex is just that: sex. The sex act does not define the bisexual male's personality. In a certain way, the sex--no matter how aroused--is meaningless; if you can't fall in love AND MEAN IT a person is using the term bisexual because it's easier then saying he's  gay or a str8 boy checking it out..[ I am not in this particular paragraph speaking about harmless recreational sex, either.]

When you come down to it in a lot of ways it would have been so much easier to be a non-conflicted young straight lad. SOOOO much easier. It would have been so much easier to have been an avowedly homosexual young GAY lad. Harder, but still easier then to be a bi boy.

Why??

Easy.
 
There was Nobody to talk with.

If you're straight you can talk with thousands, if you're gay you can talk with hundreds. If you're born bi there is virtually NOBODY. As time went on I met other young bi kids. We all had the same problem: no place to fit, no place to go, no idea of what we were and very very confused by having the hots for girls with cute butts and boys with hot bulges.Who the devil does your average bi 16 year old discuss that with??? You fit NOwhere. It was the blind leading the blind. I made my own rules of behaviour, these blended well  the actual inborn sense of who and what i was, and the same can be said of the few friends who were the same. We met each other in the ODDEST ways, too---a beach, a study hall, having a physical fight which both stopped because each recognised...something which somehow  knew was inthe other.

 Every one was a  teenaged misfit. Cool...but different. Nerdy...but different. Quiet. Boisterous. Didn't matter, all were loners and supremely distrustful of others' motives with REASON. I. detested older gay men and supposed straight guys who were pigs. My kid I was closest too detested cool straight dudes, and he was cooler then they were.

As we got older we met men who claimed they were bi, and had the morals of pigs. They would marry and sleep with anything they wanted regardless of the consequences to a wife. They would have gay relationships with a committed partner and sleep with women. These guys had not an ounce of integrity. My friends and I had mad hormones, yet these guys were revolting and we were appalled because they were known as bi. WE thought they were simple opportunistic pigs with the morals of goats and ran in the other direction. They thought they were gods, without saying so. They merely ACTED that way. Rules of any sort within a relationship did not apply, nor did they ever really give a damned about anybody but themselves.

As time went on these screw-whatever-moved guys either died of disease or slid to one side or the other. Looking back, they actually WERE the opportunistic pigs with morals of goats that a bunch of 16-17-18 year old boys THOUGHT they were.

As I got just slightly older, I had a huge break. I developed  a problem of sorts and  older gay men got interested in helping this completely impossible stand-offish arrogant brat [aka, me ] deal with that problem lol.   Absolute altruism on their parts combined with enormous honesty. I'd have never settled down if it wasn't for those guys--hell, who else was willing to take the time. I got some of my friends to join 'us';one had the same problem and also got help for it while the others ended up spending Sunday afternoons with a group of old gay farts for years.

At heart we baffled these guys. All of these older men were gay gay gay, all of them had had sex with women and all of them said it was essentially meaningless. Most were partnered, or had been, for long years. There was no way they would describe themselves as bisexual, there was no way we would describe ourselves as gay.

They did not relate.

I remember well, one day long conversation where everybody baffled everybody else completely. How could they only like men? How could WE like women? How could we combine the two? The resulting decision was we had been born that way. We were not like most [MOST] of the other guys they knew who said they were bi. We differed in one giant aspect, namely that we could and did fall in love with women or men and were happy. I bracketed the word most. That's because they knew a very small number of men  who COULD fall in love like that and DID describe themselves as bi. Outside of relationships we had fun, in them we did not screw around. Two of us were naturally mono, the others, 2 I think did so because they thought it worked, and 1 did so because he was afraid of turning into one of THOSE. ALL of us, to this day, know a guy is bi not by what he does in bed but by with whom he has the ability to fall in love.

Who can you fall deeply in love with? Does it matter if they are a woman? Does it matter if it's a man? Are the bonds just as deep? I feel very sorry for any male who says he is bi and won't/can't answer those to himself. Why? means he has a lot of hell ahead of him.

I've been in love 2 x's, once with each, the sex did not matter, the person did. The actual sex was as satisfyingly passionate with the guy as it was on BBM, the sex with the woman is none of your business, I married her. But I wouldn't trade it for anything.

and this is way long.

Well as I see it Jack and his wife vs Ennis is no different than a hetrosexual married guy lusting after another woman. This would be "normal" for a bisexual.

Offline ednbarby

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Re: Ennis and Jake are homosexuals, bi-sexuals or??
« Reply #34 on: March 25, 2007, 05:54:29 pm »
Once again, Ednbarby, I disagree.   You have NO indication of what Ennis's tendencies or attractions were prior to meeting Jack, other that he was leading a straight life.   We as the viewer have no idea why Ennis's dad showed him the dead body as a kid; you are making presumptions that were not at all in the book nor the movie.    Ennis did not seem attracted to Alma only AFTER he met Jack, which to me was not so much that he had given up on women entirely, but he had fallen for another person, who happenned to be a man.   How do you know that Ennis wasn't madly in lust with Alma before Brokeback, and had regular intercourse all the time?    Heck, they had two daughters pretty darn quick, which means that he was at least enjoying some intercourse!

So, back to my original question, if Ennis had never met Jack, how would you, or Ennis himself, know that Ennis was gay?     I am not defining being gay or straight by what someone does, remember, I disputed that.   But, if you have someone who is married, has kids, demonstrates no attraction whatsoever that he is attracted to men, never has that suspicion in himself (until he meets his "jack"), then how can you possibly label him as gay?

First of all, we all know Ennis never had sex - period - before Brokeback because he tells Jack so.  And he's not one to lie.  "You may be a sinner, but I ain't yet had the opportunity."  At this point, we can be fairly certain it isn't gay sex Ennis is talking about, but sex in general.

And to say that he was madly in love with Alma before Brokeback is what's really being presumptuous.  1. We know Ennis is a virgin.  2.  We know Ennis plans to marry Alma when he comes down off the mountain.  And yet it is with Jack that he shares his family and childhood history in a way we can be fairly certain he hasn't shared with Alma.  How can we be?  Because he says so.  "Hell...  That's the most I spoke in a year."  He's spoken more in that one conversation with Jack than he spoke in a whole year with Alma.  Does that not tell you something?  Anything?

And just because he is in denial about his own homosexuality does not make him any less homosexual.

Also, if we look at the short story, there is even more evidence.  What he says about Alma there is this:  "I love my girls.  And Alma?  This ain't her fault."  There is no "I love Alma" or "I thought I loved Alma once."  Just "I love my girls" and "This ain't [Alma's] fault."

You imply that I'm presuming things, and yet you're presuming an awful lot based on your interpretation of the movie, too.

Let's just agree to disagree on this.  You will no sooner convince me that Ennis is anything but predominantly homosexual any sooner than I'll convince you that he's anything but straight.

Truce?

No more beans!

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Ennis and Jake are homosexuals, bi-sexuals or??
« Reply #35 on: March 25, 2007, 06:09:37 pm »
You imply that I'm presuming things, and yet you're presuming an awful lot based on your interpretation of the movie, too.

It really does depend on your interpretation of the movie, and how you understand that parts that are hinted at but not spelled out. There aren't always right and wrong answers.

My interpretation is close to Barb's. I don't think Ennis had anything beyond mild nonsexual affection for Alma, and maybe not even that for Cassie. He sounds pvery uninterested in either when he talks to Jack about them. Similarly, I think any love Jack had for Lureen is of the good-friends type.

Maybe gay vs. bi is also a matter of interpretation and personal definition. But to me, it's less based on whether a person is sexually functional with someone of the opposite gender than whether they are sexually attracted to people of the opposite gender. I see no sign that Jack and Ennis are attracted to women.

Offline RossInIllinois

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Re: Ennis and Jake are homosexuals, bi-sexuals or??
« Reply #36 on: March 25, 2007, 07:51:13 pm »
First of all, we all know Ennis never had sex - period - before Brokeback because he tells Jack so.  And he's not one to lie.  "You may be a sinner, but I ain't yet had the opportunity."  At this point, we can be fairly certain it isn't gay sex Ennis is talking about, but sex in general.

And to say that he was madly in love with Alma before Brokeback is what's really being presumptuous.  1. We know Ennis is a virgin.  2.  We know Ennis plans to marry Alma when he comes down off the mountain.  And yet it is with Jack that he shares his family and childhood history in a way we can be fairly certain he hasn't shared with Alma.  How can we be?  Because he says so.  "Hell...  That's the most I spoke in a year."  He's spoken more in that one conversation with Jack than he spoke in a whole year with Alma.  Does that not tell you something?  Anything?

And just because he is in denial about his own homosexuality does not make him any less homosexual.

Also, if we look at the short story, there is even more evidence.  What he says about Alma there is this:  "I love my girls.  And Alma?  This ain't her fault."  There is no "I love Alma" or "I thought I loved Alma once."  Just "I love my girls" and "This ain't [Alma's] fault."

You imply that I'm presuming things, and yet you're presuming an awful lot based on your interpretation of the movie, too.

Let's just agree to disagree on this.  You will no sooner convince me that Ennis is anything but predominantly homosexual any sooner than I'll convince you that he's anything but straight.

Truce?


Do we know Ennis didn't have sex??? Im not so sure about that one. I wouldn't think a 19 YO kid would think of sex as sinning... I could be wrong. The short states "nothin heed done before" no instructions needed ( ;D hehehe my hero!)  Proulx isn't very clear on this statement as sex in general or anal sex with a guy. You could be right. We do learn Ennis has good aim with both guns however! Piece of cherry cake indeed!  :P
« Last Edit: March 26, 2007, 03:35:51 pm by RossInIllinois »

Offline ednbarby

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Re: Ennis and Jake are homosexuals, bi-sexuals or??
« Reply #37 on: March 25, 2007, 09:02:06 pm »
I think Ennis is talking about sex in general here because he is in *deep* denial about his own sexuality.  Do you really think he'd be telling Jack at this point that he'd never had sex with a man before?  In the early 60s (as it is now in some circles), pre-marital sex was considered a sin.  They still call kids born out of wedlock "bastards."

I mean, my God - Ennis couldn't even admit to himself that he had loved a man until he said, "Jack, I swear."  20 years later and who knows how long after Jack's death.  So you think he's referring to anal sex when he's 19?

No more beans!

Offline Artiste

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Re: Ennis and Jake are homosexuals, bi-sexuals or??
« Reply #38 on: March 25, 2007, 10:30:04 pm »
Wow, wow, wow, wow!!!!

Thanks very, very, very much all of you!!!!!!!!!!

This information is interesting!!

There are different types of gay sex and/or relationships, same for bi-men, for heterosexuals, and by others,
it seems more evident now.

It remains that at 19 Ennis said to Jack that he had not sex yet. At 19 then, one does think about sex or does not??

Still... a puzzle!! At what age and time sex was an allure for Ennis?? For Jack too??

Why the mention of religion, was that NOT then too?? During that same conversation?? And that made a difference if you were/are gay, bi-, hetero, and/or of other orientation??


Hugs!!

Offline brokebackjack

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Re: Ennis and Jake are homosexuals, bi-sexuals or??
« Reply #39 on: March 26, 2007, 12:07:17 am »
Le Truce!!!!!!
"I couldn't stand it no more so i fixed it"