Author Topic: Ennis and Jake are homosexuals, bi-sexuals or??  (Read 28547 times)

Offline HerrKaiser

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Re: Ennis and Jake are homosexuals, bi-sexuals or??
« Reply #50 on: March 31, 2007, 12:42:22 pm »
Not even the psychological, medical, or other scientific communities can agree on or define the fine lines that blurr the catagorizations of peoples' orientations. The easy ones are the committed polarized groups of 'only straight' or 'only gay', and those get firmed up real quick in the bedroom when things work or someone is repulsed . But, everything in between is up for grabs, and every individual tends to self-define him or herself in a way that works for their life and their unique circumstances, emotional, physical, financial, or whatever.

Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: Ennis and Jake are homosexuals, bi-sexuals or??
« Reply #51 on: March 31, 2007, 01:37:35 pm »
Great to see you back, Herr, with your enlightening way of posting!!
"chewing gum and duct tape"

Offline Artiste

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Re: Ennis and Jake are homosexuals, bi-sexuals or??
« Reply #52 on: March 31, 2007, 01:47:14 pm »
Thanks brokenbackjack!!

I agree with what you say as this I know that too as you talk this concerning 3 categories and mention this about them:
not really...I know plenty of guys who are self described NOW as exclusively gay who had great sex with a woman, liked the woman, even loved her 'in a way' who were never able to love the woman as much as a man.
...

I say that there are indeed more than 3 categories, some unknown yet?

Do you consider Ennis as a homosexual, bi-sexual, straight,  or??

Do you consider Jack as a homosexual, bi-sexual, straight, or ??

May I ask you brokenbackjack??

Hugs!!

Offline Artiste

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Re: Ennis and Jake are homosexuals, bi-sexuals or??
« Reply #53 on: March 31, 2007, 02:03:21 pm »
Thanks HerrKaiser!!


It is very revealing what you say about different categories and times, etc. as you are saying this:
Not even the psychological, medical, or other scientific communities can agree on or define the fine lines that blurr the catagorizations of peoples' orientations. The easy ones are the committed polarized groups of 'only straight' or 'only gay', and those get firmed up real quick in the bedroom when things work or someone is repulsed . But, everything in between is up for grabs, and every individual tends to self-define him or herself in a way that works for their life and their unique circumstances, emotional, physical, financial, or whatever.
 ...

However, am sure you know that some medical, religious, etc., experts (and others) are trying to say about sexual orientation, even in certain ways to categories in order to have gays kill, others killed too, etc., because they are negative against certain persons. We know of those sent and/or taken from many different countries during WWII so they be killed in camps, burned to death by the thousands just because they were gays!! And, even to-day there are hundreths (maybe hundrenths of thousands) murdered or killed by their governments to-day, just because these are gay persons, such events as in Iran, and elsewhere in islamic countries and others even in South America, etc.; plus many murdered in the USA, Canada, England, France, etc. because they were  murdered are gay men!! This is not a subject that many want to talk about, not many even in the gay communities, unfortunately. Fortunately, we still have some liberty to at least talk about it, and try to do something against that those needless murders/killings??

................. How can we try to prevent such murders/killings??

Do you think that Annie writing about Ennis and Jack helps??

Hugs!!



Offline RossInIllinois

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Re: Ennis and Jake are homosexuals, bi-sexuals or??
« Reply #54 on: March 31, 2007, 07:29:15 pm »
Under the hypothetical circumstances you describe here, I would definitely still describe Ennis as gay.  If his true desires were for men and he repressed himself so much that he lived the rest of his life with Alma, it still wouldn't mean that his true sexual orientation is towards Alma.  People can go through the motions physically and still not actually feel the component of true desire that, at least to me, seems to be the core of honest sexual orientation.  I think this is actually demonstrated in Ennis's character both in his behavior towards Alma and towards Cassie.

I think a lot of closeted gay people (both historically and currently) live this way. Unfortunately.

I disagree somewhat on your statement. A bisexual can fall in love with either gender. In the case of the story line in BBM, Ennis was not in a loveless relationship with Alma in the beginning. What happens in many marrages is the couple grows apart because of a lack of incompatibility usually on both sides. In the case of BBM Alma turned into a  controlling Woman trying to "mold" Ennis into something she wanted often putting conditions (and him) down in the relationship and this can wreck a marrage in a hurry if its one sided. You can say a similar breakdown happened between Jack and Laureen as well. What Ennis had with Jack Twist was unconditional love, Jack loved Ennis no matter what he did or who he choose to be. This is why he choose to have the homosexual relationship not because he "discovered he was Gay" I would have to assume that Ennis knew he was Bi for awhile however.  Love is a wonderful thing especially when someone loves you for just being who you are.  Indeed "unconditional" Love is a force of nature and should never be ignored it may only happen once in your life. All this Banter is mostly useless anyway because none of it is really true and just implied through Annie Proulx's imagination   ;)
« Last Edit: April 01, 2007, 09:39:37 am by RossInIllinois »

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Ennis and Jake are homosexuals, bi-sexuals or??
« Reply #55 on: March 31, 2007, 10:18:16 pm »
Do you really think that Ennis ever loved Alma?  I mean really, truly deeply loved Alma?  I certainly don't.  I think he saw her as an opportunity.  And, I think he felt a friendship and a sense of partnership with her at the beginning, but certainly not love.  I think it's totally unfair to call either Alma or Lureen a controlling woman.  The main reason that both marriages failed was that neither Ennis nor Jack were in the marriage because they first and foremost wanted to be with their wives.  Both Ennis and Jack forced themselves into that circumstance.  Yes, Alma wanted to move to town, but beyond that we don't know what kind of "conditions" she put on Ennis.  She even put up with some tremendously distasteful situations in bed (distasteful to her) in order to accomodate the marriage for a while.  I'm no fan of Alma, but I really don't at all feel it's fair to blame her for the ultimate downfall of the marriage.  It was doomed even before they were married.  It was doomed as soon as Ennis met Jack.  I really tend to like Lureen.  I find her to be a much more complex character than Alma.  And, again, I don't think she was a "controlling" figure to Jack.  L.D. certainly was.  But, Lureen seems to have pretty much let Jack do what he liked (didn't really question his interest in the fishing trips, etc.).  And I think her gesture to Ennis on the phone is really nice (both telling him to go to Jack's parents' house and also telling Ennis that Brokeback was Jack's favortie place).  Lureen's behavior during that phone call is light-years better than Alma's "Jack-Nasty" rant.  But, again, I don't blame either wife for the failure of the marriages.  How could those marriages ever possiblly have worked?  Both of the men were already in love with someone else before the weddings ever happened.

And, I agree with you that a bisexual person can fall in love with a person of eithe gender.  And even a gay person (for the record, I myself am gay) can love (in a platonic sense) a friend of the opposite gender.  But, my basic point is that I think Ennis and Jack are both purely gay.  I think Ennis is only going through the motions (for the sake of propriety) when it comes to going through with his marriage, etc.
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Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: Ennis and Jake are homosexuals, bi-sexuals or??
« Reply #56 on: March 31, 2007, 10:32:07 pm »
I agree with everything you say here, Amanda. The way Ennis talks about Alma ("me and Alma are gettin married as soon as I come down from this mountain," etc.) is so passive and devoid of enthusiasm that it's very clear to me where he stands and that his heart isn't in it, and that's even before he and Jack have an intimate relationship. Which reinforces the feeling that he is gay, IMO. I also think that it was a marriage arranged by Ennis's siblings in agreement with Alma and/or her relatives.

"chewing gum and duct tape"

Offline Artiste

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Re: Ennis and Jake are homosexuals, bi-sexuals or??
« Reply #57 on: April 01, 2007, 11:13:59 am »
Thanks Two Jacks!

Wow, wow, you really think Ennis's mariage was arranged in such way??

It could very well be... and such by his brother? Or someone else?

Like an obligation?

Hugs!

Offline RossInIllinois

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Re: Ennis and Jake are homosexuals, bi-sexuals or??
« Reply #58 on: April 01, 2007, 11:53:26 am »
Thanks Two Jacks!

Wow, wow, you really think Ennis's mariage was arranged in such way??

It could very well be... and such by his brother? Or someone else?

Like an obligation?

Hugs!

Hello People??  this is a fictional story!

Offline Artiste

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Re: Ennis and Jake are homosexuals, bi-sexuals or??
« Reply #59 on: April 01, 2007, 12:23:04 pm »
Thanks RossInIllinois!

You say this:
Hello People??  this is a fictional story!
...

For many reasons, I think that this is yes a fictional story, and, also a non-fictional story!

Just for instance (just as one example), there have been many true stories on TV news and documentary films this year and last year, about some persons who are obligated to marry the one that their parents do want, especially if they are of a certain religion, cast, etc.; so this subject is in a way to-day's! And, we are finding in Canada and in the USA such obligated marriages and those who refused are killed, yes murdered. If we let, as free citizens, such murderers run our countries, are we civilized? How many gay men were burned to death in the WWII only because they were gay, countless,  and other persons were murdered because murderers room. If Ennis is a straight man or a gay man and/or something else, that needs to be talked about, I think, as we can NOT be blind because many gay men are being murdered to-day in our countries and elsewhere for NOTHING!

Pray you inderstand why I am searching in many ways how to stop the needless killing of gay men and of others??

Your ideas are invited!! Please!! True, it could be that Annie did a fiction story; however, she did surely know about the needless killing of the Sheperd gay man, yes? And she still thinks about that, as she fears ( I feel) for gay men as she thinks daily about Ennis and Jack even to-day after she wrote her story!!

I would appreciate your ideas, etc., here, RossInIllinois,

like always your comments I do,

hugs!!