Least Favorite Character in BBM

[Lumière]

I am kinda curious about what you all think 

[j.U.d.E.]

Voted for John Twist, but I'd add Cassie... Annoying!

~ j U d E

[moremojo]

I voted for John Twist myself.

K.E. seems to be getting a bum rap here--no doubt a traumatized child like Ennis, and only a bit older than he. Furthermore, as Ennis says, he did the best he could. It's a moot point now, anyway, as no one has yet voted for him.

Scott

[Lumière]

On the subject of K.E., hmm... I agree that he probably was as traumatised as Ennis, all goes back to their dad I guess.   
I also threw in Cassie for good measure ...    She will probably make a few top 3 least favorite character lists, who knows?  We'll find out..

[ednbarby]

Can you add in Jimbo?  He pisses me off.  He and his buddies at the pool table.  I know the hate crime perpetrators would be the obvious choice here so it's fine not to include them.  But if Jimbo were there, he'd be my number one least favorite.  I don't like that way he looks at Jack.  John Twist is a mean old man who never properly appreciated or loved his son, but we have no evidence that he's particularly homophobic.  In fact he might have even been willing to have Jack and Ennis live together up there if it meant getting his sorry-ass ranch licked into shape.  Given the choices now, though, I went with John.

And I've got no problem with Cassie - she certainly had impeccable taste, and she was just trying to do the best she could.

[Lumière]

Can you add in Jimbo?  He pisses me off.  He and his buddies at the pool table.  I know the hate crime perpetrators would be the obvious choice here so it's fine not to include them.  But if Jimbo were there, he'd be my number one least favorite.  I don't like that way he looks at Jack.  John Twist is a mean old man who never properly appreciated or loved his son, but we have no evidence that he's particularly homophobic.  In fact he might have even been willing to have Jack and Ennis live together up there if it meant getting his sorry-ass ranch licked into shape.  Given the choices now, though, I went with John.

And I've got no problem with Cassie - she certainly had impeccable taste, and she was just trying to do the best she could.

One Jimbo coming right up Barb! 
I left out the "grease monkeys" or murderers for very obvious reasons.
Cassie is not in my top 3 either, but I know a few who think she was annoying

[j.U.d.E.]

And I've got no problem with Cassie - she certainly had impeccable taste, and she was just trying to do the best she could.

Maybe, but would I know someone like her, clingy, forcing me to do things I do not like (dancing or other), too pushy, upsetting my personal bubble - I'd run! 

~ j U d E

[Toast]

All of the characters in your list represent some aspect of life.
but the character that made the whole story so tragic is Ennis' father.

He represents the severe hate that is the crux of this story.
Joe Aguirre  - fearful of his reputation if he hires them guys
John Twist - weird and defeated, Mrs Twist conquered him and raised a gorgeous son.
L.D. Newsome - money MAN - football + money = manliness
Ennis' Dad  - EVIL
K.E. del Mar - I am sure K.E. is hurt just as much as Ennis by the irrigation ditch, how could we fault him??
Cassie Cartwright - wants to have a good man - more power to her.
Jimbo, the Rodeo Clown  - represents that fear that a man has, even if he is straight. he is cute, in spite of it all.

Mr Del Mar in Sage, Wyoming gets my bad guy vote in this movie.
second on my list would be Jimbo, evn if he is physically cute.


Morey

[Lumière]

toast -
Cheers for dropping in your vote. 

[YaadPyar]

And I've got no problem with Cassie - she certainly had impeccable taste, and she was just trying to do the best she could.

She put her tired, smelly feet in Ennis's lap and asked him to rub them.  That is never ok - not under any circumstance.  YUCKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK!  Really - she didn't wash them, powder them, or ask him.  Such bad manners.

[moremojo]

And I've got no problem with Cassie - she certainly had impeccable taste, and she was just trying to do the best she could.

Agreed. She's a bit forward and bold, but she's got a good heart, and gave Ennis some of the attention and affection that he deserved and, I suspect, needed. Cassie is easy on the eyes in her own right, and she and Ennis would make a nice couple in terms of how they look together. And how I would like to be Cassie nestled against Ennis on that barroom dance floor!

Scott

[moremojo]

She put her tired, smelly feet in Ennis's lap and asked him to rub them.  That is never ok - not under any circumstance.

Pretty bold, to be sure, and it's not the kind of thing most folks, I assume, would do. But Ennis actually seems pleased (or pretends that he is pleased); note the wry little smile on his face as he complies with Cassie's request.

And a little confession on my part: Ennis could place his tired, smelly feet in my lap anytime!

 
Scott

[Lumière]

. And how I would like to be Cassie nestled against Ennis on that barroom dance floor!

Scott M.

Umm..get in line Scott! You'll have to wait your turn like all the others! 
I find Ennis incredibly smokin' in that scene - maybe it is the way he hunches over a little and fidgets with that damn cigarette; nice butt there too! 

[ednbarby]

OK, OK.  Cassie *is* annoying.  And way more forward than I would ever be.  Hell, Lureen is way more forward than I'd ever be.  But least favorite?  No way.  And come to think of it, I'd like to change my vote - not to Jimbo, but to Ennis' father.  Of course he is the worst of the worst.  John Twist is more pathetic than anything.  And he certainly has very little power ultimately - his wife and son were able to overcome his negative ways and far surpass him, as has been said.

Can you please set up your poll so I can change my vote?  (And could I be any more annoying?  Crap - I'm vying with Cassie, aren't I?)

[Lumière]

Can you please set up your poll so I can change my vote?  (And could I be any more annoying?  Crap - I'm vying with Cassie, aren't I?)

Hi Barb,  When I set up the poll, I made it so that people could change their votes..or so I thought! 
Now, when I go to edit the poll, I don't even see the option to make votes changeable.
Do you have any idea about this?    Anyone?

[Sashca1007]

Without reading the other posts or even the list of choices--  my first thought was...BOBBY TWIST.  Then, of course I realized you were referring to the actual characters, not the actors who portrayed them!  With that in mind, I'll have to go along with the senior Mr. Del Mar, for planting those hideous homophobic ideas in the minds of sweet little Ennis and K.E.

Dishonorable mention goes to:

- 4th of July biker creeps
- rude old men in Lureen's office (making disparaging remarks about Jack!)
- Cassie sticking her stinky feet on Ennis and calling him 'dummy' just grates on my nerves.  I guess it bothered me more than it did him.   

- Oh, what the heck, dang it---BOBBY F-ing TWIST!  'Next two weeks'?!?  That's right, little 'Weird Child from Anywhere but Texas'....  Why, I oughta......        

[Lumière]

- Oh, what the heck, dang it---BOBBY F-ing TWIST!  'Next two weeks'?!?  That's right, little 'Weird Child from Anywhere but Texas'....  Why, I oughta......        

 
Aww..poor Bobby! lol...

[David]

OMG!   It has to be Ennis's Father!   The Bastard!

It is all his fault that Ennis couldn't bring himself to openly LOVE Jack.    

[Toast]

I am not revoting or changing my vote,
just a note in defense of Cassie

Ennis has just been castrating calves this morning
a foot or two are not a problem for him

Cassie is in the story to show that Ennis has no interest in playing heterosexual games with another woman's life, just for show.

He looks so noble, sad and hurt with his apple pie at the restaurant on his last meeting with Cassie.
That character and performance by Heath is so universal but specific.

I love Ennis because he is so real.

oops this is about who we dislike - sorry...
GRRR old man Del Mar - rest in pieces by the highway.

[Lynne]

I'm waffling between Mr. Del Mar and Mr. Twist.  I know that Ennis' father is to be reviled for instilling his own homophobia in Ennis, leading to Ennis' life-long denial of his love for Jack.  And there is a case to be made that he was directly involved in Earl's murder.  As bad as he was, though, it was the early 1950's and I think he was a product of his own upbringing.  In a very convoluted way, he could have been trying to protect his sons from a similar fate.

That said, I'm going with Mr. Twist.  I cannot get past him facing Ennis, obviously aware of how much Ennis is hurting, and choosing to knowingly inflict additional pain.  Jack's mother's unconditional love and acceptance makes her husband's rejection and hatred that much more severe.  And just because Annie Proulx's scene from Jack's childhood didn't make the movie doesn't mean it didn't happen.  He was an abuser from the beginning.

They're both very very bad...flip a coin, I guess.

[Lumière]

The 2 dads (Twist & del Mar) are my top two.  Ennis' life was forever shaped by his abusive father.  His whole struggle with his sexuality and his love for Jack all go back to what happened in his childhood.  Then we come to John Twist, he was a bastard too, but luckily, Momma Twist had so much love and compassion that her son was not permanently scarred by his father's mean ways.

I think Ol' man del Mar is top of my list, followed by John friggin' Twist!

 

[Ellemeno]

Of course Ennis's father is criminal, but I would vote for:

My least favorite character in the movie is Fayette Newsome.  I have empathy for most of those others, in one way or another.  But a grandmother who can only talk about how many cans of baby formula she brought, when she first beholds her only grandchild, feh.  Could you add her to the list?

And those Texas "pissant"-talkers.  How crappy to talk about Jack like that in front of his wife.

[ednbarby]

That's a good point, Clarissa.  However, Fayette redeemed herself in my eyes a tad when she smiled at Jack when he stood up for her daughter at Thanksgiving.  The first time he shuts off the TV, before he and L.D. have at it, she flashes a subtle little grin his way as if saying "Thank you."

But if we're talking about people who piss us off for being insensitive, I gotta go back to Jimbo.  And really he's more sinister than his little scene allows, because he and his pool-playing buddies are the foreshadowers of what's to come 20 years later.  I really wanna smack his smug little face for looking at Jack like that in that bar.  Hard.

[Ellemeno]

That's a good point, Clarissa.  However, Fayette redeemed herself in my eyes a tad when she smiled at Jack when he stood up for her daughter at Thanksgiving.  The first time he shuts off the TV, before he and L.D. have at it, she flashes a subtle little grin his way as if saying "Thank you."

But if we're talking about people who piss us off for being insensitive, I gotta go back to Jimbo.  And really he's more sinister than his little scene allows, because he and his pool-playing buddies are the foreshadowers of what's to come 20 years later.  I really wanna smack his smug little face for looking at Jack like that in that bar.  Hard.

I've never noticed that smile, Barb.  I'll watch for it next time.  That would be redeeming. 

As for Jimbo, my take on him has always been that Jack was right about him - that he is gay.  But Jack was foolish enough to do his flirting right in front of the bartender, and Jimbo himself felt at risk of being outed and harmed.  It always seems like he plays all his lines for the bartender's benefit, to make clear that he ain't queer. 

And it looks to me that Ang Lee deliberately made Jimbo's conversation with his pool buddies deliberately ambiguous.  You could look at it and see him telling them what Jack had just said, and then you can watch it again, and they are all just talking about any old something innocuous.  Very effective.  And just the sort of head-messing confusion that gets Ennis so paranoid later on (maybe rightly and maybe needlessly, we never find out).

[ednbarby]

I've never noticed that smile, Barb.  I'll watch for it next time.  That would be redeeming. 

As for Jimbo, my take on him has always been that Jack was right about him - that he is gay.  But Jack was foolish enough to do his flirting right in front of the bartender, and Jimbo himself felt at risk of being outed and harmed.  It always seems like he plays all his lines for the bartender's benefit, to make clear that he ain't queer. 

And it looks to me that Ang Lee deliberately made Jimbo's conversation with his pool buddies deliberately ambiguous.  You could look at it and see him telling them what Jack had just said, and then you can watch it again, and they are all just talking about any old something innocuous.  Very effective.  And just the sort of head-messing confusion that gets Ennis so paranoid later on (maybe rightly and maybe needlessly, we never find out).

Excellent point about Jimbo, Clarissa.  Of course - he is playing all those lines for the bartender (who actually seems quite sympathetic to Jack when he first asks to buy him a beer, I've noticed), isn't he?  So many layers.  Just like real life, huh?  God, I love these people.

And speaking of that, I didn't even notice Fayette's little smile until roundabout my sixth viewing (and first DVD viewing at home).  All those times on the big screen, and I never saw it.  Maybe because I was so busy watching the color rise up Jack's/Jake's neck to his face and then to his temples as he gets madder and madder at L.D.  An understandable distraction.  Yes, do watch for it next time - she does it the very first time he shuts it off when he's saying, "Finish your dinner.  And *then* you can watch the game."  I think it's when he's coming back to the table from doing that, actually, that she looks in his direction and gives him just the tiniest look of approval.

Have I mentioned how much I love all these people?

[TJ]

While I think the Ang Lee Brokeback Mountain Movie is a very good movie in the "stand-alone" sense, I actually prefer Annie Proulx's original story (I refer to that as "the book").

I chose "L. D. Newsome" as one of my options here because while Lureen's father-in-law is talked about in the short story, he has no name in it. Lureen doesn't even have a last name in the book." Annie Proulx NEVER had Jack Twist work for his father-in-law's farm and equipment company. Jack worked for the company and had a vague managerial title and was a buyer after Lureen inherited it. Jack would not have enjoyed working for a man who hated his guts and according to Jack in 1967, he and Lureen were getting no financial help from her father at all.

K. E. Del Mar more than likely had a problem with his own sexuality and might have suffered from his father's hatred of queers, too, just like Ennis did. When Ennis and Jack were up on Brokeback Mountain, Ennis said that his brother lived in Signal and his married sister lived in Casper. Notice that the book did not say K. E. was married.

Cassie Cartwright - She was created for the movie because when the last time that Jack and Ennis were together, Ennis said "he'd been putting the blocks to a woman who worked part-time at the Wolf Ears bar in Signal where he was working now for Stoutamire's cow and calf outfit, but it wasn't going anywhere and she had some problems he didn't want." Signal and the Stoutamire ranch were not even in the same county as Riverton, Wyoming and the book says so. One "putts the blocks to" a vehicle to see its underside or the main-frame which is a "chassis" (pronounced "chassie". The screenplay writers used a play on words in that situation. I personally think that Ennis made the woman up to tell Jack, "I am a man; I'm still not no queer."

Jimbo, the Rodeo Clown, doesn't exist in the original story either. The guy who is the bull fighter clown in the movie when Jack is supposed to be riding a bull is not even built the same as the actor. The Alberta Rockies Gay Rodeo Association (ARGRA) assisted in the production of the movie's rodeo scenes.

Speaking of Rodeos and bull riders, Ty Murray, the president of the Professional Bull Riders Association (aka PBR), stated on a morning talk show on a major TV network that he like the movie. Bernie Taupin, the writer of the lyrics  of "A Love That Will Never Grow Old," is one of the stock providers for PBR rodeos in the west. Taupin is one of Elton John's song writers.

[Lumière]

Cheers for adding your 10 cents TJ! 

I just decided to remove K.E. del Mar from the list, he was just as messed up by their abusive father as Ennis was ...  I sometimes wonder about Mrs. del Mar, what was she like?  How did she treat her sons?  Was she basically living in the abusive shadow of her husband as well?  For all we know, she coulda been a battered wife, forced into subserviency.

[Arad-3]

God! ]what a horrible man. showing his two young boys Earls dead body. And then after that he couldnt even make the only curve in a 43 mile road. He was probley too busy scouting for gays

[Lumière]

He was probley too busy scouting for gays

LOL    ... Thats funny!

Poor Mrs del Mar though ... 

[TJ]

Cheers for adding your 10 cents TJ! 

I just decided to remove K.E. del Mar from the list, he was just as messed up by their abusive father as Ennis was ...  I sometimes wonder about Mrs. del Mar, what was she like?  How did she treat her sons?  Was she basically living in the abusive shadow of her husband as well?  For all we know, she coulda been a battered wife, forced into subserviency.

I wouldn't have been surprised if K.E. and Ennis's mother, Mrs. Del Mar, were to have been described by Annie Proulx (AP) being a mother somewhat like Jack's mother. Ennis's mother's denomination is not mentioned in the AP story; but, in the dozy embrace flashback scene, Ennis does something with Jack like his own mother did with him and said to Jack what his own mother said to him. In the movie, Ennis did say his folks were Methodist.

I have met a few Methodist mothers who were very spiritual and loving of their own children, too. I have been shown great hospitality by Methodists and I have a memory of good time in Methodist family's home the first Sunday I was living in the small town where I first taught school. I did not go there regularly though, I felt more at home in the American Baptist Church.

[serious crayons]

Cassie is probably my fifth favorite character. Maybe even fourth (shocking, I know -- who does this exclude?).

Ennis' dad is the most evil. John Twist is a jerk, all right. But it sounds like he would have tolerated, however reluctantly, Jack setting up ranching with a man. Ennis' dad would have tortured one or both of them to death. Can't get much worse than that.

[TJ]

Jesus said, "Do not fear those who can kill the body but not the soul; but, fear the person who can destroy one's body and soul in hell." "Hell" here is not an actual place but a spiritual condition. The Greek word for "soul" in that saying is "psyche."

One time my Pentecostal mother and I were discussing what Jesus said and she brought into the discussion the subject of child abuse that did not exactly have to be physical but spiritual abuse, too.

Ennis's internalized homophobia came from the psychologial abuse that he received from his father when the boys' dad took them to see the mutilated, beaten with a tire iron, body of Earl in the irrigation ditch. Mr. Del Mar, a Methodist according to the movie, might have been following what he believed to be Biblically correct from the Old Testament in the execution of guys who committed the abomination of "men lying with a male as one lies with a woman."

Children of "Christian" parents have been punished by what seems to be literally written in the Old Testament. Corporal punishment for discipline purposed is approved of in the OT books (the "spare the rod, spoil the child" thing and "beating a rebellious child won't kill him" thing). Even an adult son who refused to obey his parents could be stoned to death if the parents took the matter before the town council and they believed the parents. The son was not allowed to present his own defense; it was the parent's word over the son's.

But, the Greek word for "discipline" in the New Testament is literally the "education of boys." Believing fathers are warned in one of the Epistles to be careful in how they correct their children, and, in words to this effect, don't make them turn against what the father believed spiritually.

[Lumière]

Ennis' dad is the most evil. John Twist is a jerk, all right. But it sounds like he would have tolerated, however reluctantly, Jack setting up ranching with a man. Ennis' dad would have tortured one or both of them to death. Can't get much worse than that.

Agreed! 
Pa del Mar takes the cake for being the meanest dad of them all!
I think the main issue is that Ennis believed that his dad was capable of killing Earl himself, infact he believes that his father did!
Not only did he take the boys over to see Earl's mutilated body, but might have committed the act himself!
Imagine how that thought alone might have freaked the living daylights out of the boys...
By the time Ennis grew up to be a man, he had put his defenses up so high that he himself could not fathom
what he was feeling sometimes, he was so repressed.  That is major psychological/emotional damage right there - not to mention their day to day lives with such a father. 

[moremojo]

I have met a few Methodist mothers who were very spiritual and loving of their own children, too. I have been shown great hospitality by Methodists and I have a memory of good time in Methodist family's home the first Sunday I was living in the small town where I first taught school. I did not go there regularly though, I felt more at home in the American Baptist Church.

My great-grandfather (my maternal grandmother's father) was a Methodist minister, and his wife, my great-grandmother, was a gentle soul who was much loved and respected by the family and the larger community. My mother remembers her being an ideal minister's wife. I was but five when she died, but I have a memory of being walked up to her by my mother, while she was seated in her rocking chair, and of her taking my hand and kissing it.

Her daughter, my maternal grandmother, inherited her graciousness and good will, and has remained a devout Methodist throughout her life. My sister, just some years ago, was formally received into a Methodist congregation, and even though I myself am not a Christian, I have a warm regard for the denomination based on my family's long-standing ties to it.

Cheers,
Scott

[Front-Ranger]

my vote goes to John Twist, hands-down. Anybody who would pee on their child is not fit to be a parent, much less a human being. And he seemed bent on destroying anyone who came within his sight, including his wife and his son's best friend too. The way McRobbie plays that role is so vile, he really deserved an award, as well as Roberta Maxwell. He was so bad, he was good!!

[TJ]

my vote goes to Jack Twist, hands-down. Anybody who would pee on their child is not fit to be a parent, much less a human being. And he seemed bent on destroying anyone who came within his sight, including his wife and his son's best friend too. The way McRobbie plays that role is so vile, he really deserved an award, as well as Roberta Maxwell. He was so bad, he was good!!

Don't you mean Mr. John C. Twist, Sr., Jack's father?

He was definitely self-centered when he said, "I can't get no help out here. Jack used a say, 'Ennis del Mar,' he used a say, 'I'm goin a bring him up here one a these days and we'll lick this damn ranch into shape.' He had some half-baked idea the two a you was goin a move up here, build a log cabin and help me run this ranch and bring it up. . . " Emphasis mine.

Was he indirectly asking Ennis to work for him when Ennis finally showed up? The way that Annie Proulx presented the character when Ennis met him and the way that Peter McRobbie played him in the movie was just great.

I got the impression that the movie Ol' Man Twist was starting to become senile because he had to be around 60 years old or even older. He must have spent too much time out in the sun without a hat.

[DecaturTxCowboy]

The sheep herding dogs...didn't see them pull their weight.

[TJ]

The sheep herding dogs...didn't see them pull their weight.

But, Aguirre said them thar dogs babysat the sheep while the boys stemmed the rose!

But, the movie did not show us that! It only showed the dogs at work when Jack and Ennis were working with the sheep.

[Lumière]

The sheep herding dogs...didn't see them pull their weight.

LOL.
I think they did pull their weight ...afterall, someone had to have been looking after them sheep while Jack & Ennis *ahem* 'stemmed the rose'  . 
My guess - without the sheep dogs, there might've been some very overfed coyotes up on Brokeback! 

[Sheriff Roland]

oops this is about who we dislike - sorry...
GRRR old man Del Mar - rest in pieces by the highway.

To rephrase Toast,

May he rest in peace under the busiest highway!

[bbm_stitchbuffyfan]

I don't think I *can* vote for this. I hate John Twist, I hate Jimbo, Aguirre is an inconsiderate prick, I hate Ennis' father because he ruined his poor son's life and for all we know he's a killer, and Cassie is head-and-shoulders above all of these assholes I've listed here but she is still kind of annoying.

Cassie is probably my fifth favorite character. Maybe even fourth (shocking, I know -- who does this exclude?).

Hmm... Alma?

[opinionista]

I don't think I *can* vote for this. I hate John Twist, I hate Jimbo, Aguirre is an inconsiderate prick, I hate Ennis' father because he ruined his poor son's life and for all we know he's a killer, and Cassie is head-and-shoulders above all of these assholes I've listed here but she is still kind of annoying.

Hmm... Alma?

Well, I don't hate Alma. I consider her a victim of her own ignorance and upbringing. As for Jack's dad, I don't think he was as bad as Ennis father was. You can see it in the person Jack becomes. He was hard on him, but he must have done something right, along with Mrs. Twist of course, because Jack turned out to be a valiant man who, unlike Ennis, would rather have 5 minutes of wonderful than a whole life of misery and nothing special. Jack was also kind and loving. His flaw, however, was stubborness. He waited way too long for Ennis to come around, then died without really enjoying the life he wanted. Ennis' dad made him a coward, a person with a lack of personal awareness and too afraid to embrace the opportunities life gave him.

[Brown Eyes]

Oh, I totally voted for Ennis's Dad. Hands down.  For a son to believe his father capable of murdering/ torturing a man to death due to bigotry... wow, that has to be one horrible human being.  Even if he didn't actually murder Earl, forcing Ennis and K.E. to view that body was a horrible form of child abuse I think.  And, maybe worst of all... even long after the father's death, Ennis's trauma due to his Dad's actions caused him to be too afraid of the world at large to even try living with Jack (i.e. to try pursuing a happy life for himself).  In every way you look at it, he was a horrible parent.

ps. why do we think K.E. and the story behind why Ennis punched Jack was omitted from the movie?

[serious crayons]

ps. why do we think K.E. and the story behind why Ennis punched Jack was omitted from the movie?

My opinion: Too complicated and distracting, and not necessary for the plot. His punch makes just as much sense, if not more, without that info.

By the way, your post, Amanda, made me think of something: how chilling it is that Ennis phrases it, "for all I know, he done the job." Not, "for all I know, he done that horrible crime," or even simply "for all I know, he done it." I realize this can partly be chalked up to Ennis' manner of speaking. But to call it "the job" is, at some level, to equate it with an expected or necessary task. Now, I'm not saying Ennis thinks of it that way. But how much did he recognize how horrible his father's attitude was? Clearly he was seriously disturbed by it, thought the experience traumatic, but the extent to which he condemns his father for it is ambiguous.

And I agree, having children view a lynched body is unequivocally child abuse. What is wrong with people?

[Brown Eyes]

By the way, your post, Amanda, made me think of something: how chilling it is that Ennis phrases it, "for all I know, he done the job." Not, "for all I know, he done that horrible crime," or even simply "for all I know, he done it." I realize this can partly be chalked up to Ennis' manner of speaking. But to call it "the job" is, at some level, to equate it with an expected or necessary task. Now, I'm not saying Ennis thinks of it that way. But how much did he recognize how horrible his father's attitude was? Clearly he was seriously disturbed by it, thought the experience traumatic, but the extent to which he condemns his father for it is ambiguous.

Yes, it's certainly chilling, but I do think he condemns his father for it.  I think it's made his own self-image and self-understanding incredibly difficult.  And, it clearly has complicated Ennis's own attitude towards homosexuality and his own sexuality... but I truly don't see Ennis as a character who could excuse that kind of violence.

[serious crayons]

Yes, it's certainly chilling, but I do think he condemns his father for it.  I think it's made his own self-image and self-understanding incredibly difficult.  And, it clearly has complicated Ennis's own attitude towards homosexuality and his own sexuality... but I truly don't see Ennis as a character who could excuse that kind of violence.

Me neither, but I do think he's conflicted about how to think about his father.

By the way, after posting here I was inspired to raise the same issue on the "Double Meanings" thread in the Open Forum. In response, Mikaela wrote an amazingly insightful analysis of the relationship between Ennis and his dad, and the effect on Ennis of the Earl experience. I highly recommend it to anyone interersted in the subject!

[bbm_stitchbuffyfan]

Well, I don't hate Alma. I consider her a victim of her own ignorance and upbringing.

Oh, I don't hate her either. Sure, she becomes deeply unpleasant but it's not totally her fault. My little "Alma?" was just one of my random, sad attempts at humor.

As for Jack's dad, I don't think he was as bad as Ennis father was. You can see it in the person Jack becomes. He was hard on him, but he must have done something right, along with Mrs. Twist of course, because Jack turned out to be a valiant man who, unlike Ennis, would rather have 5 minutes of wonderful than a whole life of misery and nothing special. Jack was also kind and loving. His flaw, however, was stubborness. He waited way too long for Ennis to come around, then died without really enjoying the life he wanted. Ennis' dad made him a coward, a person with a lack of personal awareness and too afraid to embrace the opportunities life gave him.

I think Jack's wonderful personality came from Mrs. Twist. I think his father was a cold, insatiable prick of a father who had no substantial love for Jack. (I mean, there's a possibility he did but who knows...) Instead, I interpret that Jack overcame his distant and harsh father to become a caring, spirited, sweet, and, like you said, valiant person. (With help from his sweetheart mother.)

But how is waiting for Ennis to come around stubborn?

I agree with your points on Ennis' Dad. What an awful man he must have been.

[opinionista]

think Jack's wonderful personality came from Mrs. Twist. I think his father was a cold, insatiable prick of a father who had no substantial love for Jack. (I mean, there's a possibility he did but who knows...) Instead, I interpret that Jack overcame his distant and harsh father to become a caring, spirited, sweet, and, like you said, valiant person. (With help from his sweetheart mother.)

But how is waiting for Ennis to come around stubborn?

In real life we always develop personality traits that come from both of our parents, and the education they give us.  We learn from the two of them, for better or for worse,  if both are always around us, of course. That's why I think Mr. Twist might have also played an important role in Jack's personality.

As for waiting for Ennis, I think 20 years is too much time to wait for anyone to come around. I mean no matter how great your love for that other person is, it's always important that you love yourself more. That's one of the lessons I learned from the movie. And Jack learned it too, remember what his father tells Ennis about his plans to move to Ligtning Flat with another fellow. But maybe he learned it too late, though there was no way he could tell he was going to die.

Jack loved Ennis more than he loved himself. And while that can sound romantic, because in Hollywood they have made it sound romantic, in my opinion it was a mistake. In real life it's a situation that causes a lot of pain and can lead anyone into a depression. Jack at the beginning of the movie was an outgoing happy man, with a quick laugh and a good sense of humor. In the end he loses all that and becomes a bitter, depressed man. And that's not fair, nobody should do that to themselves. That's why I think his stubborness, in this case, was a flaw. He should've loved himself more no matter how much he loved Ennis.

[serious crayons]

As for waiting for Ennis, I think 20 years is too much time to wait for anyone to come around. I mean no matter how great your love for that other person is, it's always important that you love yourself more. That's one of the lessons I learned from the movie.

Well, but (and I realize this is OT and there are probably a million other places I could dispute this, but I happen to be here just now) it's not like Ennis spurned Jack completely. If he had, if Ennis had not returned Jack's love at all or gotten together with him when he could, then two years might be too much. It's not that he completely didn't "come around," he just didn't come out. But a love that doesn't include living together is not the same as no love at all.

OK, just to get back on topic, how can two voters dislike Cassie -- however annoying you might find her, which personally I don't, despite the stinky feet -- more than Ennis' dad, a man who may have tortured someone to death?

[Ellemeno]

how chilling it is that Ennis phrases it, "for all I know, he done the job." Not, "for all I know, he done that horrible crime," or even simply "for all I know, he done it." I realize this can partly be chalked up to Ennis' manner of speaking. But to call it "the job" is, at some level, to equate it with an expected or necessary task.

I said this in another thread once - When Ennis says, "all those things...should I come to know them...could get you killed..."   Among other things he may be expressing with this (jealousy, for example), I think he is defaulting to his old upbringing: you find out someone is queer, and you kill them, or threaten to.  He seems to be able to tweak in his mind that what he and Jack do is not queer, but if Jack does it with other men...then, by the code he learned from his father, then Ennis needs to kill him.  And I think that when Ennis says, "I can't stand this anymore, Jack," he's referring to this horrible split inside of himself, more than anything: must kill Jack/must NOT kill Jack/must kill Jack/must NOT kill Jack.   

how can two voters dislike Cassie -- however annoying you might find her, which personally I don't, despite the stinky feet -- more than Ennis' dad, a man who may have tortured someone to death?

Misogyny?

[opinionista]

Well, but (and I realize this is OT and there are probably a million other places I could dispute this, but I happen to be here just now) it's not like Ennis spurned Jack completely. If he had, if Ennis had not returned Jack's love at all or gotten together with him when he could, then two years might be too much. It's not that he completely didn't "come around," he just didn't come out. But a love that doesn't include living together is not the same as no love at all.

You're right, Ennis did not spunned Jack completey, but I think it would've been better for him to call it quits after Ennis' divorce when he drives all the way to Wyoming only to be rejected. That's when Jack dies (emotionally, I mean). I understand that Ennis had his daughters and Jack went there at a bad moment, but Ennis could've handled the situation differently. Jack was humulliated (and Jake conveyed that so well!). Besides, Jack himself complaints, during the argument at the lakeside, that Ennis was not coming to see him that much anymore, when he says you used to come easy, now is like seeing the Pope . I think the whole situation was killing Jack emotionally because he wasn't happy at all, he was totally miserable. (Maybe we should open a whole new thread, instead of talking here OT, what do you think?).

UPDATE

The thread
http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php?topic=2426.0

[Lumière]

OK, just to get back on topic, how can two voters dislike Cassie -- however annoying you might find her, which personally I don't, despite the stinky feet -- more than Ennis' dad, a man who may have tortured someone to death?

Well, I believe I set up the poll allowing for 3 choices.  So there is plenty of room in there for Pa del Mar and Pa Twist! 
Cassie might've been a little pushy or irritating, but I don't dislike her, she was looking for love and fell for Ennis. 
...Now Silly Jimbo that's another matter..

[bbm_stitchbuffyfan]

(Maybe we should open a whole new thread, instead of talking here OT, what do you think?).

I'm game. This topic is interesting me...

[Catglith]

Randall's my least favourite character!

[serious crayons]

Hey Catglith, welcome to BetterMost! I always enjoyed your posts on imdb.

[ednbarby]

Randall's my least favourite character!

I can dig this.  Who the hell's he think he is, anyway???

[Lumière]

I can dig this.  Who the hell's he think he is, anyway???

Another poor, trapped human being whose goose was well-cooked with a chatterbox of a wife?! 
I don't mind Randall ... he was just lookin' for a bit of action on the side, is all..lol!

[David In Indy]

I was going to pick Joe Aguirre. But when I saw Ennis' father, I just had to choose him. How could ANYONE do what that man did to Ennis as a child?

[JT]

Actually I hate all the people you listed except Cassie.  She's a bit rude and pushy but does not register 'hate' to me.

[David In Indy]

Actually I hate all the people you listed except Cassie.  She's a bit rude and pushy but does not register 'hate' to me.

Yes, Cassie can be a byotch.

She has great hair though! 

[Amber]

I would have voted for LaShawn had she been on the list - listening to that woman go on and on gives me a headache!

I also selected John Twist and Jimbo.  Down with both of them!  John Twist is central to the story ... but Jimbo can walk right out of the movie if you ask me.

[moremojo]

I also selected John Twist and Jimbo.  Down with both of them!  John Twist is central to the story ... but Jimbo can walk right out of the movie if you ask me.

Now, I have the challenging task of playing Jimbo in the ongoing performance thread, and am seeking ways to lend some sympathy to that none-too-friendly but perhaps conflicted rodeo clown. I think his scene with Jack is important to the narrative to underline Jack's loneliness and continued hunger for male intimacy, even seeking it out from as unprepossessing a source as our Jimbo. It also pithily illustrates Jack's naivete and unwitting vulnerability, further anticipating his possible murder later in the story.

[Amber]

Now, I have the challenging task of playing Jimbo in the ongoing performance thread, and am seeking ways to lend some sympathy to that none-too-friendly but perhaps conflicted rodeo clown. I think his scene with Jack is important to the narrative to underline Jack's loneliness and continued hunger for male intimacy, even seeking it out from as unprepossessing a source as our Jimbo. It also pithily illustrates Jack's naivete and unwitting vulnerability, further anticipating his possible murder later in the story.

Ok, you got me there.  I guess Jimbo does/did serve a purpose.  I stand corrected 

[Lumière]

Now, I have the challenging task of playing Jimbo in the ongoing performance thread, and am seeking ways to lend some sympathy to that none-too-friendly but perhaps conflicted rodeo clown. I think his scene with Jack is important to the narrative to underline Jack's loneliness and continued hunger for male intimacy, even seeking it out from as unprepossessing a source as our Jimbo. It also pithily illustrates Jack's naivete and unwitting vulnerability, further anticipating his possible murder later in the story.

I agree with you Scott.

Jimbo was a dumbass mule if you ask me..lol!  How can anyone say NO to Jack Twist?  
Ok..ok..so he might've been straight, but so what? 

[JT]

I agree with you Scott.

Jimbo was a dumbass mule if you ask me..lol!  How can anyone say NO to Jack Twist?  
Ok..ok..so he might've been straight, but so what? 

I agree!  Only a dumbass mule could say NO to Jack.  Jimbe was so annoying when he gave that look before he left.  So hostile.  He could have been more humane even if he has no interest in our Jack.

[loneleeb3]

I voted Twist, Newsome and Agugurrie.
OMT was a hateful bastard! Ld Newsome was just an asshole so was Agurrie.
But OMT was evil and hateful. He did his best to shit on everyone around him.
I really hate that man. 

[Shakesthecoffecan]

I really hate the guy who walks down the street as Ennis is pulling in to the laundry parking lot just before he gets Jack's post card. Ennis has had a hard day and he could hold up a second and let Ennis coast to a stop, no he has to have one more interference. 

[Meryl]

Anyone with me on Bobby Twist, that seeming spawn of Billy Crystal and Joan Rivers? 

[serious crayons]

I hate the Basque. What's the big deal about a few soup boxes? Talk about lazy!

[loneleeb3]

I hate the Basque. What's the big deal about a few soup boxes? Talk about lazy!

 
Oh that made me chuckle!
Thanks! I needed that!

[southendmd]

Well, I hate the Jolly Minister.  "...and if you don't, I will" makes me want to slap him every time.  Get your jollies somewhere else, bud.

[loneleeb3]

Well, I hate the Jolly Minister.  "...and if you don't, I will" makes me want to slap him every time.  Get your jollies somewhere else, bud.

LOL! Me too!
I always thought that was wierd.
I thought that would have been a great place for the line (you wanna loose half you F'in teeth!) LOL

[serious crayons]

 

[Shakesthecoffecan]

I hate the Basque. What's the big deal about a few soup boxes? Talk about lazy!

I almost said the Basque, almost, but he was on to Ennis, I know he was.

[Katie77]

Have just read through this post and find it very humorous.

Well, I hate the Jolly Minister.  "...and if you don't, I will" makes me want to slap him every time.  Get your jollies somewhere else, bud.

I agree about that minister.....hate that scene and what he says....as if a young girl would want him to kiss her....as you say, he was getting his jollies.

And Cassie, when she puts her tired smelly feet up on Ennis's lap.....ugh!!....what a tramp.

[optom3]

Really dislike Randal his head seem enormous, or was his hat just too small. also, hate to be shallow, but he was way out of Jack's league.I mean what was he thinking, he was about a 6, Jack  9.5 and of course for me Ennis is a 10.
Not too keen on the slime ball minister either.
But the no.1 slot has to go to Ennis's father, for being the driving force behind the whole tragedy.

[JudgeHolden]

From a writers POV I liked all the characters in that they were all there for a purpose to the story and nothing was wasted, not a cardboard cutout among them.  I dont got nothing against the Preacher, think you all just dont like him cause hes performing the marriage ceremony that is the keystone of the wall that will separate Jack and Ennis for good. Hes a  nice enough fella, give him a break, hes injecting a little levity into a solemn moment and yeah, has a corny sense of humor, hes not gonna be cracking jokes like, "a nked blonde walks into a bar with a [blank] under her arm.."

Or Cassie. Most straight guys would think Christmas came early if that gal came along and asked them for a footrub. A buddy of mine said he knew Ennis was gay for sure because of how he reacted to  Sassy Cassie.  She was just barking up the wtong tree, and she really did love the guy.

Dont understand the hating towards Aguirre either. He hired those boys to do a job and they blew it off to blow each other. So he dont hire them back, I wouldnt either in his shoes, watching thme frolic in the campground while the coyotes are up in the pasture snacking on my sheep. And note, he does not wade in there and bust it up (too late in the season to hire anyone) or call them queers, or is there any evidence he ratted them out in town. He just declines to hire them back, and not even in an especially homophobic manner. No, hes no picture of enlightenment, likely despises queers, but he dont go out of his way to make their lives difficult.

I dont even hate the fathers of the boys, as much damage as they did, they were hard, embittered men, defeated by grinding poverty that (in John Twists case) slopped over on his son, to where you know Jack didnt let anything pass his lips that his Daddy didnt put down or dismiss outright. You have to feel sorry for them, really, they were stuck with few options, maybe not likeable, but not evil.

My choice is them 2 bikers. Guys like that (and they were not stereotypes unfortunately) need there asses kicked as much as possible, intimidating women and kids, just because your a redneck is no excuse to be trash.

Though the character I would least like to be seated next to at a family reunion/long flight is LaShawn Malone. Bless her heart, Im sure shes a fine woman (her real-life equivalents) but Randalls expression even before he starts making eyes at Jack says it all. Think Id be eyeballing that guy Ennis is partnered with on the roadcrew from sheer desperation if I had to sit across the dinner table from her evry night. You know Randall is big ol drunk and if BBM took place in 1998 in stead of 1978, Randall would be online every spare minute on manfactory.com making new freiends.

[Kerry]

My least favourite character isn't listed.

The character I like least is Randall Malone. 

Why? Because he presents the most viable, real risk of being the one who's ultimately responsible for breaking-up Jack and Ennis. And he's just too smarmy and clever for words. He's a snake. I don't like him. He should keep his grubby hands to himself and stay away from Jack (and that goes for you too, Jack!). 

[Marge_Innavera]

Have just read through this post and find it very humorous.

I agree about that minister.....hate that scene and what he says....as if a young girl would want him to kiss her....as you say, he was getting his jollies.

One thing that troubles me about that scene is that the minister is an older man, 50- or 60-something; so unless he entered the ministry late in life, he's performed a lot of marriages over the years.  And has seen his share of marrying couples where one or both of them were clearly unhappy. For anyone who performs marriages regularly, that must be something that chills the blood.

On some viewings, my reaction has been 'how dense!' and in others, 'whether anyone else in the church noticed anything amiss or not, he's trying to convince himself that this isn't one of those sad weddings by lightening things up a bit.'

[Marge_Innavera]

My least favourite character isn't listed.

The character I like least is Randall Malone. 

Why? Because he presents the most viable, real risk of being the one who's ultimately responsible for breaking-up Jack and Ennis. And he's just too smarmy and clever for words. He's a snake. I don't like him. He should keep his grubby hands to himself and stay away from Jack (and that goes for you too, Jack!). 

Though the character I would least like to be seated next to at a family reunion/long flight is LaShawn Malone. Bless her heart, Im sure shes a fine woman (her real-life equivalents) but Randalls expression even before he starts making eyes at Jack says it all. Think Id be eyeballing that guy Ennis is partnered with on the roadcrew from sheer desperation if I had to sit across the dinner table from her evry night. You know Randall is big ol drunk and if BBM took place in 1998 in stead of 1978, Randall would be online every spare minute on manfactory.com making new freiends.

I didn't dislike Randall; as far as Ennis and Jack are concerned he's arguably an innocent bystander as he can't have any way of knowing in his one scene of Ennis' existence.  And later.... well, from his perspective this is a relationship that obviously isn't doing Jack any good so I doubt his intentions are bad.

And Randall appears to be stuck in a marriage at least as bleak as Jack's, with a wife who clearly thinks she's married beneath her.  While his wife's chatter sounds silly and innocuous on the surface, there are snide little put-downs scattered throughout, such as "like it or not, here I am!" (when someone says "like it or not" about their own situation; it's a bet that not is what they're thinking of).  She makes a point of Randall not knowing what to do when the car breaks down and when she tells Lureen about how much money she spent on clothes while working for Neiman-Marcus, she mentions that she spent "more than Randall ever will make." 

And as someone who attended college in the Deep South not far from the time that LaShawn and Lureen did, I can tell you that the Tri-Delt sorority (Delta-Delta-Delta) was the sorority for rich and semi-rich Daddy's girls at that particular time and place.  IMO, her remark about Texas not being what they expected and her indirect reference to her income isn't unrelated to that.  Jack might have been the best thing Randall's eyes had seen for years!

[serious crayons]

One thing that troubles me about that scene is that the minister is an older man, 50- or 60-something; so unless he entered the ministry late in life, he's performed a lot of marriages over the years.  And has seen his share of marrying couples where one or both of them were clearly unhappy. For anyone who performs marriages regularly, that must be something that chills the blood.

Interesting point, Marge! I hadn't thought about that before. His stupid-sounding line may be him trying to leaven what seemed an awkward or uncomfortable situation.

And Randall appears to be stuck in a marriage at least as bleak as Jack's, with a wife who clearly thinks she's married beneath her.  While his wife's chatter sounds silly and innocuous on the surface, there are snide little put-downs scattered throughout, such as "like it or not, here I am!" (when someone says "like it or not" about their own situation; it's a bet that not is what they're thinking of).  She makes a point of Randall not knowing what to do when the car breaks down and when she tells Lureen about how much money she spent on clothes while working for Neiman-Marcus, she mentions that she spent "more than Randall ever will make."

I agree. LaShawn puts down Randall numerous times, and they're all vaguely veiled attacks on his masculinity. He can't fix a truck, he's not a good breadwinner and he doesn't "have a smidgen of rhythm," in a context where rhythm/dancing has already been established as a euphemism for sex.

You know, I like LaShawn and I never thought about this before, but it might have been interesting to see a different kind of character in that part. What if Randall reacted that same way to Jack -- even though he had a wife who was attractive and appealing?

[mariez]

On some viewings, my reaction has been 'how dense!' and in others, 'whether anyone else in the church noticed anything amiss or not, he's trying to convince himself that this isn't one of those sad weddings by lightening things up a bit.'

Yep, lightening things up is exactly how I've always viewed this - thanks for articulating that so well.  And it seems to work doesn't it?  We get that little almost-laugh out of Ennis, which always squeezes my heart.

Marie

[Brown Eyes]

Marge and K, the observations about LaShawn are definitely really interesting.  There are certainly interesting social hierarchies at play in the dinner-dance conversation.  I think you're right that LaShawn's discussion is peppered with little put-downs toward Randall.  She may think she's being light-hearted and witty... but those little put downs probably sting for Randall... especially because she probably talks that way frequently to many folks.

As far as Jack is concerned... I always find it fascinating that he's the only one of the four who didn't attend college.  I'm sure all the discussions of sororities and college majors, etc. are an irritant to him too.

[Monika]

I voted for John Twist. Ennis´s dad is probably worse, but we never get to see him so somehow he still doesn´t provoke the same feeling of anger as JT does.

If the guys that killed Jack had been on the list I would have voted differently...every time I see that scene I want to do something....violently...

Another scene I can hardly watch is the scene with Randall. I know that logically I shouldn´t...but I do. Maybe because of the same reason some people find Cassie annoying. But everytime I see that scene I feel like throwing up - it is something about Randall that feels just so...tacky and everything else that Jack/Ennis is not I guess.

I guess sometimes one´s feelings can´t be explained with logic

[loneleeb3]

I guess sometimes one´s feelings can´t be explained with logic

Ain't that the truth! 

[JudgeHolden]

I didn't dislike Randall; as far as Ennis and Jack are concerned he's arguably an innocent bystander as he can't have any way of knowing in his one scene of Ennis' existence.  And later.... well, from his perspective this is a relationship that obviously isn't doing Jack any good so I doubt his intentions are bad.

And Randall appears to be stuck in a marriage at least as bleak as Jack's, with a wife who clearly thinks she's married beneath her.  While his wife's chatter sounds silly and innocuous on the surface, there are snide little put-downs scattered throughout, such as "like it or not, here I am!" (when someone says "like it or not" about their own situation; it's a bet that not is what they're thinking of).  She makes a point of Randall not knowing what to do when the car breaks down and when she tells Lureen about how much money she spent on clothes while working for Neiman-Marcus, she mentions that she spent "more than Randall ever will make." 

And as someone who attended college in the Deep South not far from the time that LaShawn and Lureen did, I can tell you that the Tri-Delt sorority (Delta-Delta-Delta) was the sorority for rich and semi-rich Daddy's girls at that particular time and place.  IMO, her remark about Texas not being what they expected and her indirect reference to her income isn't unrelated to that.  Jack might have been the best thing Randall's eyes had seen for years!

Dont forget Lureens dig at Jack, "Husbands...dont never seem to want to dance with their wives. Whyd you think  is, Jack." and his brush-off, "Never gave it any thought." Both women are putting on a show but there is clearly anger underneath at there men who are not being husbands to them, the fatigue of being married to a closeted man and wondering why if youre holding up youre end, the men aint behaving like the marital-advice books say they will. They are both good-looking women, havent let themselves go, dont keep a funky house, so what gives, they wonder. Theire men no doubt do there share of drinking, how couples in their position coped in those days.

Randall is maybe a year or two older than Jack, maybe they been married a little longer (you dont find out if theres a Randall Jr. but I assume theres kids), long enough hes learned to do that male eye-dance you can back away from if your radar turns out to be off.

I got a hard time watching it too, but because I lived it, and I know too well what comes later, when the couples part ways and drive home in silence to their resentment and obligation-filled homes. That kind of silence between man and wife can lie so thick on the dark bedroom it seems only a gunshot can break it.

[Front-Ranger]

You know, I like LaShawn and I never thought about this before, but it might have been interesting to see a different kind of character in that part. What if Randall reacted that same way to Jack -- even though he had a wife who was attractive and appealing?

But LaShawn WAS attractive and appealing, wasn't she? And her motor mouth was funny at least for the first few minutes. The last time I saw the movie, at Signal Mountain Lodge, I was struck with how LaShawn and Cassie had such assymetrical hairdos. I wonder if that's a clue to how we should look at these late-appearing characters.

[serious crayons]

Dont forget Lureens dig at Jack, "Husbands...dont never seem to want to dance with their wives. Whyd you think  is, Jack." and his brush-off, "Never gave it any thought."

Literally!   

Both women are putting on a show but there is clearly anger underneath at there men who are not being husbands to them, the fatigue of being married to a closeted man and wondering why if youre holding up youre end, the men aint behaving like the marital-advice books say they will. They are both good-looking women, havent let themselves go, dont keep a funky house, so what gives, they wonder. Theire men no doubt do there share of drinking, how couples in their position coped in those days.

Yup, I totally agree. And while her man is drinking, Lureen throws herself into her work to cope.

[Marge_Innavera]

I voted for John Twist. Ennis´s dad is probably worse, but we never get to see him so somehow he still doesn´t provoke the same feeling of anger as JT does.

I voted for Ennis' father.  Have heard a rather nauseating array of arguments spinning or softening what he did (most of the "it's just their culture" variety) but I don't know....

There's just something about beating a man to a pulp, dragging him around by the genitals until they get ripped off and then taking your two young sons to show off the body to that seems.... well, you know.... sort of rude.   

[Marge_Innavera]

Both women are putting on a show but there is clearly anger underneath at there men who are not being husbands to them, the fatigue of being married to a closeted man and wondering why if youre holding up youre end, the men aint behaving like the marital-advice books say they will. They are both good-looking women, havent let themselves go, dont keep a funky house, so what gives, they wonder. Theire men no doubt do there share of drinking, how couples in their position coped in those days.

Except that LeShawn is a bit more direct about feeling that she married beneath her.  And that could have surfaced pretty early in the marriage.

[serious crayons]

Have heard a rather nauseating array of arguments spinning or softening what he did (most of the "it's just their culture" variety)

 

Wow. From whom?

(And just to clarify, the quote in your post above this one was actually JudgeHolden's. I screwed up in my previous post and didn't put his quote in quotes when I quoted it.)

[Shakesthecoffecan]

Well my most favoite extra in the movie was Alexandra Hager, a resident of Rockyford, Alberta, who knocked Jake Gyllenhaal down by accident and then fled the scene in terror.

(You owe me, Jake!  )

[Brown Eyes]

Well my most favoite extra in the movie was Alexandra Hager, a resident of Rockyford, Alberta, who knocked Jake Gyllenhaal down by accident and then fled the scene in terror.

(You owe me, Jake!  )

Now this really raises my curiosity.  Do elaborate!  How did she knock Jake down??  What scene was the extra in?

Except that LeShawn is a bit more direct about feeling that she married beneath her.  And that could have surfaced pretty early in the marriage.

I'd guess that Jack was probably very used to Lureen's parents - an particularly L.D.-  making it pretty clear that she married "beneath" her.  I get the sense that in many cases (especially where Lureen's parents are concerned) that Jack and Lureen are allies.  So, at least in the family context I don't think that Lureen would have pushed the idea that Jack was "beneath" her.  But, again, I do think that all the people at the dinner dance are probably making Jack feel very out of place as the only one at the table with a limited education.  He can't even really participate in a conversation that's about college football, sororities and majors.  Around the time that they were all in college, he was on the mountain with Ennis. 

And, I do agree that LaShawn was putting Randall down a bit in the conversation at dinner.  But, I think a lot of couples do this thinking that they're being funny or joshing each other... or giving each other a hard time in a humorous way with a wink and a nudge.  And, sometimes I think it definitely can become annoying or grating to one or the other of the individuals in the couple after a while.  I don't know that we really know enough about the full context of the relationship between LaShawn and Randall to understand all the dynamics between them.  I do think Lureen and LaShawn understand each other... or at least have a gut feeling that they can understand one another about their marital situations.

[Ellemeno]

Now this really raises my curiosity.  Do elaborate!  How did she knock Jake down??  What scene was the extra in?

Oh yeah, we talked to her mom in "JT's Bar" in "Riverton," after the Rockyford Rodeo.  I forget the details, but I remember her mom telling the story.

But, again, I do think that all the people at the dinner dance are probably making Jack feel very out of place as the only one at the table with a limited education.  He can't even really participate in a conversation that's about college football, sororities and marriages.  Around the time that they were all in college, he was on the mountain with Ennis. 

Oh, good point, A, I never thought of it that way!  In terms of "marrying beneath" and "high society" and other social terms that reference up and down, at that time, Jack was on the top of a mountain with Ennis, looking down on it all, and nothing seemed wrong.  He was luckier than even the fanciest college-goer, that way.

[Monika]

I voted for Ennis' father.  Have heard a rather nauseating array of arguments spinning or softening what he did (most of the "it's just their culture" variety) but I don't know....

There's just something about beating a man to a pulp, dragging him around by the genitals until they get ripped off and then taking your two young sons to show off the body to that seems.... well, you know.... sort of rude.   

I don´t know if trying to explain his behavior is the same thing as "softening" it

Rude? thats one way of putting it

But again, the reason I feel more annoyed with JT is, I think, due to the fact that we get to see his hatred face to face so to say, though Ennis´s dad remains somewhat of a mystery.

Btw. JT and Ennis´s dad might have been good friends, dont you think?

[serious crayons]

Btw. JT and Ennis´s dad might have been good friends, dont you think?

They would have had a lot in common, sure enough. But Ennis' dad was without question a homophobe, and possibly even a homophobic murderer. Whereas JT shows no evidence of being particularly homophobic.

[Shakesthecoffecan]

Now this really raises my curiosity.  Do elaborate!  How did she knock Jake down??  What scene was the extra in?

She was one of hundreds of people in the stands at the rodeo where Jack meets Lureen. Her mother, Bonny, who is a cook at the hotel in Rockyford, says she can picker her out in the crowd.

The story Bonny told was that her daughter turned quickly and ran straight in to Jake, knocking him on the ground. She was so mortified she then ran away.

[Brown Eyes]

Oh, good point, A, I never thought of it that way!  In terms of "marrying beneath" and "high society" and other social terms that reference up and down, at that time, Jack was on the top of a mountain with Ennis, looking down on it all, and nothing seemed wrong.  He was luckier than even the fanciest college-goer, that way.

Thanks Bud.  Yep, I've always thought the dinner dance was particularly relevant to the idea of Jack being a "black sheep" or an outsider.

And, LOL, in re-reading my post I realize I made a typo/content error... I meant to write
"He can't even really participate in a conversation that's about college football, sororities and majors." (not marriages)

[loneleeb3]

I've always thought the dinner dance was particularly relevant to the idea of Jack being a "black sheep" or an outsider.

Boy, he did look mighty fine all in black with that leather sports coat though! 

[Artiste]

Did Jack wanted to be a black sheep ?

[Brown Eyes]

She was one of hundreds of people in the stands at the rodeo where Jack meets Lureen. Her mother, Bonny, who is a cook at the hotel in Rockyford, says she can picker her out in the crowd.

The story Bonny told was that her daughter turned quickly and ran straight in to Jake, knocking him on the ground. She was so mortified she then ran away.

 
Now that really would be embarassing!!  I don't think I've ever bumped into anyone hard enough to actually knock them over... and needless to say, especially not a celebrity.  The fact that it was one of the stars of the movie just makes the whole situation even wackier.

Boy, he did look mighty fine all in black with that leather sports coat though! 

Yes!  Absolutely,  when you look at him in contrast to almost everyone else in the crowd at the event, Jack really sticks out in his especially dark clothing.

I think there's a bit of foreshadowing here about Jack's death too... the ominous color and the discussion about the broken down pick up that occurs with LaShawn while they dance.

[loneleeb3]

Yes!  Absolutely,  when you look at him in contrast to almost everyone else in the crowd at the event, Jack really sticks out in his especially dark clothing.

I think there's a bit of foreshadowing here about Jack's death too... the ominous color and the discussion about the broken down pick up that occurs with LaShawn while they dance.

Never thought about the foreshadowing there but now that you point it out it's almost obvious!
Great observation!

[Marge_Innavera]

Wow. From whom?

It was on another forum, and my taking issue with it was my first, and hopefully only, experience with getting hate mail.  That wasn't a reference to anyone here.

That Ennis' father was the one who killed Earl -- or, more likely, part of a group of men who did -- is my interpretation, of course.  It's based on references in both the ss and movie.  In the ss Ennis says during the Motel scene:

If he was alive and was to put his head in that door right now you bet he’d go get his tire iron.

Ennis doesn't say that his father would have beaten the crap out of him or disowned him, he specifically refers to a lethal physical attack.  IMO, that's a reflection of a gut feeling he'd always had about his father. 

In the movie, Ennis says that his father might have done it "for all I know," which isn't as definite a statement. However, the flashback clearly shows Earl's body just as it was left and it evidently hadn't been found yet.  But Ennis' father knows exactly where it is, and makes sure that he takes his sons to see it before it's discovered.

There's no telling what he'd done to his daughter too, by the time he did the world a favor and drove off the road.

[loneleeb3]

It was on another forum, and my taking issue with it was my first, and hopefully only, experience with getting hate mail.  That wasn't a reference to anyone here.

That Ennis' father was the one who killed Earl -- or, more likely, part of a group of men who did -- is my interpretation, of course.  It's based on references in both the ss and movie.  In the ss Ennis says during the Motel scene:

If he was alive and was to put his head in that door right now you bet he’d go get his tire iron.

Ennis doesn't say that his father would have beaten the crap out of him or disowned him, he specifically refers to a letal physical attack.  IMO, that's a reflection of a gut feeling he'd always had about his father. 

In the movie, Ennis says that his father might have done it "for all I know," which isn't as definite a statement. However, the flashback clearly shows Earl's body just as it was left and it evidently hadn't been found yet.  But Ennis' father knows exactly where it is, and makes sure that he takes his sons to see it before it's discovered.

There's no telling what he'd done to his daughter too, by the time he did the world a favor and drove off the road.

I thought it was a pretty clear impression that Mr DelMar either did it or was involved. You give the examples to support that conclusion.

[brokeplex]

Mr Newsome really got on my nerves! He was my one and only vote, I wish I could make it count as 3 votes.

[loneleeb3]

I got a hard time watching it too, but because I lived it, and I know too well what comes later, when the couples part ways and drive home in silence to their resentment and obligation-filled homes. That kind of silence between man and wife can lie so thick on the dark bedroom it seems only a gunshot can break it.
 
 

Me too.
Itis so true.

[serious crayons]

Now that really would be embarassing!!  I don't think I've ever bumped into anyone hard enough to actually knock them over... and needless to say, especially not a celebrity.  The fact that it was one of the stars of the movie just makes the whole situation even wackier.

Though if she'd have stuck around and reached down to give him a hand up, who knows where it might have led! I had a friend in junior high who had a crush on Paul McCartney. Her plan to meet him was to park outside his house and then ram into his car when he came out.

 

However, the flashback clearly shows Earl's body just as it was left and it evidently hadn't been found yet.  But Ennis' father knows exactly where it is, and makes sure that he takes his sons to see it before it's discovered.

Good point. Even the best-case scenario -- that he somehow heard of it before the sheriff did but wasn't directly involved -- is still pretty bad.

I did once know someone to make a tongue-in-cheek argument that Mr. Del Mar took his sons to see Earl out of concern for their welfare and safety ("Be careful, boys, this is a homophobic society, so if you happen to be gay, be sure to be discrete!"). But unless you buy that, there's really no way around it -- Ennis' dad was evil. Ennis must have grown up in a state of contant terror.

Mr Newsome really got on my nerves! He was my one and only vote, I wish I could make it count as 3 votes.

Nice to see you around these parts, brokeplex! 

[Brown Eyes]

Though if she'd have stuck around and reached down to give him a hand up, who knows where it might have led! I had a friend in junior high who had a crush on Paul McCartney. Her plan to meet him was to park outside his house and then ram into his car when he came out.

 

   I'm still trying to envision how the situation with Jake took place.  I mean, Jake seems like a pretty sturdy boy... to actually bump into him hard enough for him to topple over... it must have been one seriously forceful bump.  And the fact that she just high-tailed it out of there is also sort of funny.  I keep having Charlie Chaplin-like scenarios run through my head with this story.

Good point. Even the best-case scenario -- that he somehow heard of it before the sheriff did but wasn't directly involved -- is still pretty bad.

I did once know someone to make a tongue-in-cheek argument that Mr. Del Mar took his sons to see Earl out of concern for their welfare and safety ("Be careful, boys, this is a homophobic society, so if you happen to be gay, be sure to be discrete!"). But unless you buy that, there's really no way around it -- Ennis' dad was evil. Ennis must have grown up in a state of contant terror.

Yes, I agee that Ennis's Dad's knowledge of the incident, possible direct involvement and interest in showing off the body... especially to young children who would have been terrified (regardless of their own future sexuality) make him a particularly dreadful character.  If nothing else, dragging children to see a murdered body seems to amount to pretty intense child abuse on a psychological level.


Thinking about Ennis's Dad is interesting compared to other characters on the list... because our only knowledge about him in either the film or the story comes through the filter of Ennis's memory/ description.  We don't encounter him as a living, active character in the same way that we do other characters on this list.  At least we meet OMT "ourselves' in the Lightning Flat scene and can make some judgments independent of another character's perspective.  In the film, I think they show Ennis's Dad as headless, faceless and voiceless... because he's only a semi-character.  For Ennis as an adult his Father is something of a conduit or symbol that helps carry Ennis's fears along I think.

[Marge_Innavera]

I did once know someone to make a tongue-in-cheek argument that Mr. Del Mar took his sons to see Earl out of concern for their welfare and safety ("Be careful, boys, this is a homophobic society, so if you happen to be gay, be sure to be discrete!"). But unless you buy that, there's really no way around it -- Ennis' dad was evil. Ennis must have grown up in a state of contant terror.

Part of the rationalization I read was that this was the equivalent of shooting a dangerous animal in the neighborhood -- i.e., the Ennis' good ole dad had the best of motives in trying to protect his family from a man whom he thought was a threat to them, especially to his sons.

Horse puckey.

I live in an agricultural area -- beef cattle farming, to be exact -- and farmers around here have no compunction whatsoever about shooting a dog, a coyote, anything that's threatening their livestock. And I'm sure some of my neighbors have shot rabid dogs and other animals as well; and if an animal that can give you rabies isn't a deadly threat, I don't know what is.

However, the MO in these cases is you shoot the animal, kill it as quickly and cleanly as possible, get it over with.  Anyone who went to great lengths to torture and terrorize and degrade the animal, show the mutilated body to their children and then laugh about it would be regarded by their neighbors, and quite rightly, as a dangerous sicko.

Lureen's father, I've heard suggestions that he might have had something to do with Jack's death. Don't see much basis for that, but I'm sure he would have felt, and expressed, some satisfaction in a circumstance where he didn't think he would be challenged.

[Marge_Innavera]

Yes, I agee that Ennis's Dad's knowledge of the incident, possible direct involvement and interest in showing off the body... especially to young children who would have been terrified (regardless of their own future sexuality) make him a particularly dreadful character.  If nothing else, dragging children to see a murdered body seems to amount to pretty intense child abuse on a psychological level.  Thinking about Ennis's Dad is interesting compared to other characters on the list... because our only knowledge about him in either the film or the story comes through the filter of Ennis's memory/ description.  We don't encounter him as a living, active character in the same way that we do other characters on this list. 

Yes, we do see Ennis' father only second-hand and it's interesting that he's faceless in the movie, which is just as well -- everything a reader/viewer really needs to know about him is in Ennis' narration (ss) or the flashback (film). But the way the plot unfolds, the biblical phrase the sins of the fathers are visited on the children is pretty apt.

I'm in a strange mood today though, and what came to mind, when I started thinking about this again, was a quote from one of my favorite popular novelists, Dean Koontz:

...

There are no explanations for evil.  Only excuses. (Again, not a reference to any comments posted here.)

[Lynne]

It's nice to see this thread revitalized. 

I PM'd Milli and got her permission to edit the poll so people can change their votes.  I have long been aggravated that I voted for Old Man Twist only, instead of both him and Mr. Del Mar.  I waffle on which one was the worst according to my mood.

I see Old Man Twist as clearly abusive and homophobic.  Every time I hear the line, 'I know where Brokeback Mountain is...' I hear implied his hatred of all things Jack.  I'm sure my opinion is colored also by the bathroom scene in the short story, but I could be wrong.

[serious crayons]

In the film, I think they show Ennis's Dad as headless, faceless and voiceless...

I believe it was Mikaela who once wrote a fascinating post about how Mr. Del Mar's lack of specific identification (headless, voiceless) makes him a stand-in for society as a whole, with the incident representing figuratively what boys in that society learn growing up.

Another way to look at it is that, this incident being filtered through Ennis' memory, everything that's less important in the scene fades out. When he recalls it, maybe he's less likely to think about his dad's face than the feel of his dad's hand on the back of his neck and his own sense of horror. When Marge mentioned the lack of law enforcement, it even occurred to me that it's possible that in reality there were other people around but what remains in Ennis' memory is that stark image of the abandoned mutilated body.

Part of the rationalization I read was that this was the equivalent of shooting a dangerous animal in the neighborhood -- i.e., the Ennis' good ole dad had the best of motives in trying to protect his family from a man whom he thought was a threat to them, especially to his sons.

Well, that rationalization is quite a stretch, not only for the reason you mentioned (neat killing vs. torture) but also because poor old Earl, living quietly with Rich and bothering no one, is hardly any threat to the community.

[Brown Eyes]

I believe it was Mikaela who once wrote a fascinating post about how Mr. Del Mar's lack of specific identification (headless, voiceless) makes him a stand-in for society as a whole, with the incident representing figuratively what boys in that society learn growing up.

Another way to look at it is that, this incident being filtered through Ennis' memory, everything that's less important in the scene fades out. When he recalls it, maybe he's less likely to think about his dad's face than the feel of his dad's hand on the back of his neck and his own sense of horror. When Marge mentioned the lack of law enforcement, it even occurred to me that it's possible that in reality there were other people around but what remains in Ennis' memory is that stark image of the abandoned mutilated body.

It's interesting... in terms of the visuals in the film... that the Earl scene and the vision of Jack's death are the two bits of visual information that we get exclusively through access to Ennis's thought process (memory and imagination).

I do wonder a bit about how amplified Ennis's memory of the Earl scene might have become over the years... since it was such a monumental and horrific moment in his past.  The setting of the Earl scene as we see it seems very extreme in terms of the ultimate in desolate and isolated terrain.

[Artiste]

Merci atz !

You say:     It's interesting... in terms of the visuals in the film... that the Earl scene and the vision of Jack's death are the two bits of visual information that we get exclusively through access to Ennis's thought process (memory and imagination).

I do wonder a bit about how amplified Ennis's memory of the Earl scene might have become over the years... since it was such a monumental and horrific moment in his past.  The setting of the Earl scene as we see it seems very extreme in terms of the ultimate in desolate and isolated terrain.

 
 
 
         
.........

Atz and to others, why do most persons do NOT care about those scenes ??

That puzzles me...

au revoir,
hugs!

[Marge_Innavera]

I don't think that most people don't care about them; they're obviously very important.  But understandably, it's not likely they're anyone's favorite scenes, to be watched on home video over and over again.

As far as the setting is concerned, it isn't uncommon for murder victims to be found in remote locations far from the actual site of the murder. Earl could have been ambushed in his own barn.

Good point about Ennis' father being faceless in that scene.

[serious crayons]

Atz and to others, why do most persons do NOT care about those scenes ??

I don't think that most people don't care about them; they're obviously very important.

There's one guy on imdb who's always ranting at people who express any sympathy toward Alma or Lureen. What about POOR EARL?? How come nobody ever feels sorry for POOR EARL?? Alma's life turned out all right, but POOR EARL was tortured and killed. The implication being that the Alma-sympathizer (usually straight) is so homophobic as to not care at all about horrific hate crimes.

He's kind of the flip side of the "that's just their society" rationalizer Marge mentioned.

I don't shed any tears for Alma, myself. But the real reason people express more sympathy toward her, of course, is that we get to know her as a character. Whereas Earl we see only as a corpse. His death is obviously much more horrifying than anything that happens to Alma or Lureen or Cassie or even Ennis. But that's the primary emotion it elicits -- horror, more than sadness.

[Shakesthecoffecan]

I don't shed any tears for Alma, myself. But the real reason people express more sympathy toward her, of course, is that we get to know her as a character. Whereas Earl we see only as a corpse. His death is obviously much more horrifying than anything that happens to Alma or Lureen or Cassie or even Ennis. But that's the primary emotion it elicits -- horror, more than sadness.

I am going to sneakily put in a plug for my all time favorite fan fic relating to the Brokeback story, it is on Live Journal, called "Roots" by 271 Horses. It is the story of Earl and Rich, their backgrounds, how they met, their life together, and also about the town of Sage, the families that made it up, including the Del Mar's. It is a fine piece of writing and stands on its own.

[Artiste]

Merci seriouscrayons !

You say about Earl:     But that's the primary emotion it elicits -- horror, more than sadness.

        
.........

Seriouscrayons and to others: it does seems that too many persons do NOT care anymore about horror, such murders as Earl's!

A gay guy was murdered in a bar that used to be a big chain grocery store, and when one of the two murderers the jury found him not guilty, there was no outcry; does that show that many or all on that jury does not care about that gay man' sl ife ?? That seems so to me! The two murderers were working at that bar and had stolen money from it, and they thought that the gay man who was the janitor, knew somehow like that it was them, so they knived him all over the many tables ! The one the jury believed and let go free, he could have ran to the police station was only less than 500 feet away to save that gay guy, but he did not! And the police detectives did not even care neither, because the blood trail which was even many blocks on the sidewalk was not followed, and they could not careless neither to check with the taxis since the murderers had taken one! Plus, the public went there as customers in loads now, because of the murder !! Shame ! Many people do not care if a gay man was murdered, unfortunately ! This is  true case, that I know about !

Did they, cops or others, ever found more about Earl's murder, I doubt it since even Ennis' father does not seem to care ? Too many people now love horror and are pleased with it; shamefull !

What do you and others think about gay murders ?

Au revoir,
hugs!

[serious crayons]

What do you and others think about gay murders ?

Artiste, I can't imagine that anybody on this website would not be concerned about and horrified by gay murders.

Not too long ago, a group of teenagers tortured one of their group, set her on fire and threw her into a ravine...it wastn' high enough to kill her outright so they went down and got her and threw her off repeatedly then left her. She wasnt' dead....just badly injured...she tried to crawl out and over the course of several days various teenagers drove out to look at her. Eventually someone cut her throat. No one callled the police. 

Wow, Jess. What a horrible story. I didn't hear anything about it. Was this near where you live? How long ago?

[Artiste]

Merci seriouscrayons !

You say:      Artiste, I can't imagine that anybody on this website would not be concerned about and horrified by gay murders.

      
..........

Seriouscrayons: may I say that I can, since at Heath death, I was blamed for no excuse, and by many on Betterrmost !! And Heath was straight, known as that! So, at a gay man's death, some members on here would NOT care at all - I think and hope and pray that I am wrong !!

Many did not even want me to use the word murderers nor gay  !!

Does that tell you something ?  I present hard facts, difficult subjects as you have noted, and I know that many do not care about them !!  Maybe I and others have made progress, some, on many dire subjects such as gay murders and bashing of  gays on here ??

At least, you are now talking about it, which was a subject no one responded to me about it before when I tried !! ?? Right ? I was told to shut up!

Au revoir,
hugs!

[Shakesthecoffecan]

Artiste, Seriouscrayons is right, no member of this forum is unconcerned about the murders of gay people and others, but I am sorry we do not respond to your repeated and as near as I can tell, largely undocumented instances. You say "so and so was killed leaving a gay bar", okay, how about a link to a media report about it?

Many here are involved with PFLAG, The Human Rights Campaign, The Matthew Shepard Foundation, all ways we can work to make this a better and safer world for gay people. That and watching our own backs to keep from becomeing vistims ourselves, what else would you like us to do, Mr. Artiste? We have been the target of hate for thousands of years, it is not going change over night or ever completely leave us.

[injest]

Ok, I know I started this by posting off topic but this thread is devoted to the movie....please confine your comments to the movie so others can contribute their opinions

thanks!

[Artiste]

And where is my reply to shakestheground ?

It was a decent reply !

[injest]

And where is my reply to shakestheground ?

It was a decent reply !

it is in your blog! In its own subject. did you vote in this poll? Which character in Brokeback Mountain did you NOT like? I didn't like Bobby, or the preacher...yuck..

[Artiste]

Injest, what do you mean in my blog ?

It HAS to be in this thread?

I replied to Skakestheground here in this thread ! Since Shakestheground misread my words !

Where is it in this thread ?

[injest]

although reviewing the options....JIMBO wasn't high on my list of FAVORITES...

but that may be because throughout the whole scene I was thinking "He don't hold a candle to Ennis!!"

oh and that reminded me of the Mexican whore....That was an awful character...

[serious crayons]

One thing I like about BBM is that few of the characters -- with the exceptions of maybe Mr. Del Mar and Mrs. Twist -- are completely bad or completely good.

John Twist is a jerk, but apparently did not object to Jack's bringing a man up to live on the ranch.

LaShawn is a blabbermouth and disdainful of her husband, but is cute and able to shrug off Lureen's insult.

Aguirre is gruff, but doesn't fire Jack and Ennis or even mention having seen them stemmin the rose until much later.

L. D. Newsome is obnoxious, but enables Jack go from poor to affluent.

Cassie plunks her stinky feet in Ennis' lap, but is well meaning and loves Ennis even though he's not fun.

Jimbo brusquely rejects Jack and possibly gossips behind his back, but saves Jack from being gored by a bull.



 

[Brown Eyes]

One thing I like about BBM is that few of the characters -- with the exceptions of maybe Mr. Del Mar and Mrs. Twist -- are completely bad or completely good.

John Twist is a jerk, but apparently did not object to Jack's bringing a man up to live on the ranch.

LaShawn is a blabbermouth and disdainful of her husband, but is cute and able to shrug off Lureen's insult.

Aguirre is gruff, but doesn't fire Jack and Ennis or even mention having seen them stemmin the rose until much later.

L. D. Newsome is obnoxious, but enables Jack go from poor to affluent.

Cassie plunks her stinky feet in Ennis' lap, but is well meaning and loves Ennis even though he's not fun.

Jimbo brusquely rejects Jack and possibly gossips behind his back, but saves Jack from being gored by a bull.

Yes, I agree that one of the reasons BBM is so interesting and stands up over so much time and so many viewings is the complexity written into all the characters including the ones we only see briefly (like LaShawn, etc.).  There are positive and negative things about all the characters including Jack and Ennis, which makes the characters feel like real people. 

[Artiste]

Why was my answer taken away, and NOT the ones from other members here ?

That is wrong !!

[Ellemeno]

One thing I like about BBM is that few of the characters -- with the exceptions of maybe Mr. Del Mar and Mrs. Twist -- are completely bad or completely good.

John Twist is a jerk, but apparently did not object to Jack's bringing a man up to live on the ranch.

LaShawn is a blabbermouth and disdainful of her husband, but is cute and able to shrug off Lureen's insult.

Aguirre is gruff, but doesn't fire Jack and Ennis or even mention having seen them stemmin the rose until much later.

L. D. Newsome is obnoxious, but enables Jack go from poor to affluent.

Cassie plunks her stinky feet in Ennis' lap, but is well meaning and loves Ennis even though he's not fun.

Jimbo brusquely rejects Jack and possibly gossips behind his back, but saves Jack from being gored by a bull.



 

I love this synopsis so much!