Author Topic: Least Favorite Character in BBM  (Read 47187 times)

Offline bbm_stitchbuffyfan

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Re: Least Favorite Character in BBM
« Reply #40 on: June 05, 2006, 12:16:12 pm »
I don't think I *can* vote for this. I hate John Twist, I hate Jimbo, Aguirre is an inconsiderate prick, I hate Ennis' father because he ruined his poor son's life and for all we know he's a killer, and Cassie is head-and-shoulders above all of these assholes I've listed here but she is still kind of annoying.

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Cassie is probably my fifth favorite character. Maybe even fourth (shocking, I know -- who does this exclude?).

Hmm... Alma?
If you'd just realize what I just realized then we'd be perfect for each other and we'd never have to wonder if we missed out on each other now
We missed out on each other now


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Offline opinionista

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Re: Least Favorite Character in BBM
« Reply #41 on: June 05, 2006, 12:37:35 pm »
I don't think I *can* vote for this. I hate John Twist, I hate Jimbo, Aguirre is an inconsiderate prick, I hate Ennis' father because he ruined his poor son's life and for all we know he's a killer, and Cassie is head-and-shoulders above all of these assholes I've listed here but she is still kind of annoying.

Hmm... Alma?


Well, I don't hate Alma. I consider her a victim of her own ignorance and upbringing. As for Jack's dad, I don't think he was as bad as Ennis father was. You can see it in the person Jack becomes. He was hard on him, but he must have done something right, along with Mrs. Twist of course, because Jack turned out to be a valiant man who, unlike Ennis, would rather have 5 minutes of wonderful than a whole life of misery and nothing special. Jack was also kind and loving. His flaw, however, was stubborness. He waited way too long for Ennis to come around, then died without really enjoying the life he wanted. Ennis' dad made him a coward, a person with a lack of personal awareness and too afraid to embrace the opportunities life gave him.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2006, 12:43:25 pm by opinionista »
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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Least Favorite Character in BBM
« Reply #42 on: June 05, 2006, 06:21:56 pm »
Oh, I totally voted for Ennis's Dad. Hands down.  For a son to believe his father capable of murdering/ torturing a man to death due to bigotry... wow, that has to be one horrible human being.  Even if he didn't actually murder Earl, forcing Ennis and K.E. to view that body was a horrible form of child abuse I think.  And, maybe worst of all... even long after the father's death, Ennis's trauma due to his Dad's actions caused him to be too afraid of the world at large to even try living with Jack (i.e. to try pursuing a happy life for himself).  In every way you look at it, he was a horrible parent.

ps. why do we think K.E. and the story behind why Ennis punched Jack was omitted from the movie?
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Least Favorite Character in BBM
« Reply #43 on: June 06, 2006, 02:22:41 am »
ps. why do we think K.E. and the story behind why Ennis punched Jack was omitted from the movie?

My opinion: Too complicated and distracting, and not necessary for the plot. His punch makes just as much sense, if not more, without that info.

By the way, your post, Amanda, made me think of something: how chilling it is that Ennis phrases it, "for all I know, he done the job." Not, "for all I know, he done that horrible crime," or even simply "for all I know, he done it." I realize this can partly be chalked up to Ennis' manner of speaking. But to call it "the job" is, at some level, to equate it with an expected or necessary task. Now, I'm not saying Ennis thinks of it that way. But how much did he recognize how horrible his father's attitude was? Clearly he was seriously disturbed by it, thought the experience traumatic, but the extent to which he condemns his father for it is ambiguous.

And I agree, having children view a lynched body is unequivocally child abuse. What is wrong with people?

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Least Favorite Character in BBM
« Reply #44 on: June 06, 2006, 08:57:37 am »
By the way, your post, Amanda, made me think of something: how chilling it is that Ennis phrases it, "for all I know, he done the job." Not, "for all I know, he done that horrible crime," or even simply "for all I know, he done it." I realize this can partly be chalked up to Ennis' manner of speaking. But to call it "the job" is, at some level, to equate it with an expected or necessary task. Now, I'm not saying Ennis thinks of it that way. But how much did he recognize how horrible his father's attitude was? Clearly he was seriously disturbed by it, thought the experience traumatic, but the extent to which he condemns his father for it is ambiguous.

Yes, it's certainly chilling, but I do think he condemns his father for it.  I think it's made his own self-image and self-understanding incredibly difficult.  And, it clearly has complicated Ennis's own attitude towards homosexuality and his own sexuality... but I truly don't see Ennis as a character who could excuse that kind of violence.
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Least Favorite Character in BBM
« Reply #45 on: June 06, 2006, 09:27:45 am »
Yes, it's certainly chilling, but I do think he condemns his father for it.  I think it's made his own self-image and self-understanding incredibly difficult.  And, it clearly has complicated Ennis's own attitude towards homosexuality and his own sexuality... but I truly don't see Ennis as a character who could excuse that kind of violence.

Me neither, but I do think he's conflicted about how to think about his father.

By the way, after posting here I was inspired to raise the same issue on the "Double Meanings" thread in the Open Forum. In response, Mikaela wrote an amazingly insightful analysis of the relationship between Ennis and his dad, and the effect on Ennis of the Earl experience. I highly recommend it to anyone interersted in the subject!

Offline bbm_stitchbuffyfan

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Re: Least Favorite Character in BBM
« Reply #46 on: June 06, 2006, 11:23:28 pm »
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Well, I don't hate Alma. I consider her a victim of her own ignorance and upbringing.

Oh, I don't hate her either. Sure, she becomes deeply unpleasant but it's not totally her fault. My little "Alma?" was just one of my random, sad attempts at humor.

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As for Jack's dad, I don't think he was as bad as Ennis father was. You can see it in the person Jack becomes. He was hard on him, but he must have done something right, along with Mrs. Twist of course, because Jack turned out to be a valiant man who, unlike Ennis, would rather have 5 minutes of wonderful than a whole life of misery and nothing special. Jack was also kind and loving. His flaw, however, was stubborness. He waited way too long for Ennis to come around, then died without really enjoying the life he wanted. Ennis' dad made him a coward, a person with a lack of personal awareness and too afraid to embrace the opportunities life gave him.

I think Jack's wonderful personality came from Mrs. Twist. I think his father was a cold, insatiable prick of a father who had no substantial love for Jack. (I mean, there's a possibility he did but who knows...) Instead, I interpret that Jack overcame his distant and harsh father to become a caring, spirited, sweet, and, like you said, valiant person. (With help from his sweetheart mother.)

But how is waiting for Ennis to come around stubborn?

I agree with your points on Ennis' Dad. What an awful man he must have been.
If you'd just realize what I just realized then we'd be perfect for each other and we'd never have to wonder if we missed out on each other now
We missed out on each other now


R.I.P. Heath Ledger

Offline opinionista

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Re: Least Favorite Character in BBM
« Reply #47 on: June 07, 2006, 06:42:28 am »
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think Jack's wonderful personality came from Mrs. Twist. I think his father was a cold, insatiable prick of a father who had no substantial love for Jack. (I mean, there's a possibility he did but who knows...) Instead, I interpret that Jack overcame his distant and harsh father to become a caring, spirited, sweet, and, like you said, valiant person. (With help from his sweetheart mother.)

But how is waiting for Ennis to come around stubborn?

In real life we always develop personality traits that come from both of our parents, and the education they give us.  We learn from the two of them, for better or for worse,  if both are always around us, of course. That's why I think Mr. Twist might have also played an important role in Jack's personality.

As for waiting for Ennis, I think 20 years is too much time to wait for anyone to come around. I mean no matter how great your love for that other person is, it's always important that you love yourself more. That's one of the lessons I learned from the movie. And Jack learned it too, remember what his father tells Ennis about his plans to move to Ligtning Flat with another fellow. But maybe he learned it too late, though there was no way he could tell he was going to die.

Jack loved Ennis more than he loved himself. And while that can sound romantic, because in Hollywood they have made it sound romantic, in my opinion it was a mistake. In real life it's a situation that causes a lot of pain and can lead anyone into a depression. Jack at the beginning of the movie was an outgoing happy man, with a quick laugh and a good sense of humor. In the end he loses all that and becomes a bitter, depressed man. And that's not fair, nobody should do that to themselves. That's why I think his stubborness, in this case, was a flaw. He should've loved himself more no matter how much he loved Ennis.
Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement. -Mark Twain.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Least Favorite Character in BBM
« Reply #48 on: June 07, 2006, 01:02:31 pm »
As for waiting for Ennis, I think 20 years is too much time to wait for anyone to come around. I mean no matter how great your love for that other person is, it's always important that you love yourself more. That's one of the lessons I learned from the movie.

Well, but (and I realize this is OT and there are probably a million other places I could dispute this, but I happen to be here just now) it's not like Ennis spurned Jack completely. If he had, if Ennis had not returned Jack's love at all or gotten together with him when he could, then two years might be too much. It's not that he completely didn't "come around," he just didn't come out. But a love that doesn't include living together is not the same as no love at all.

OK, just to get back on topic, how can two voters dislike Cassie -- however annoying you might find her, which personally I don't, despite the stinky feet -- more than Ennis' dad, a man who may have tortured someone to death?
« Last Edit: June 07, 2006, 05:01:56 pm by latjoreme »

Offline Ellemeno

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Re: Least Favorite Character in BBM
« Reply #49 on: June 07, 2006, 02:13:00 pm »
how chilling it is that Ennis phrases it, "for all I know, he done the job." Not, "for all I know, he done that horrible crime," or even simply "for all I know, he done it." I realize this can partly be chalked up to Ennis' manner of speaking. But to call it "the job" is, at some level, to equate it with an expected or necessary task.

I said this in another thread once - When Ennis says, "all those things...should I come to know them...could get you killed..."   Among other things he may be expressing with this (jealousy, for example), I think he is defaulting to his old upbringing: you find out someone is queer, and you kill them, or threaten to.  He seems to be able to tweak in his mind that what he and Jack do is not queer, but if Jack does it with other men...then, by the code he learned from his father, then Ennis needs to kill him.  And I think that when Ennis says, "I can't stand this anymore, Jack," he's referring to this horrible split inside of himself, more than anything: must kill Jack/must NOT kill Jack/must kill Jack/must NOT kill Jack.   

how can two voters dislike Cassie -- however annoying you might find her, which personally I don't, despite the stinky feet -- more than Ennis' dad, a man who may have tortured someone to death?

Misogyny? :(