Author Topic: Where is the hay fun in the Brokeback Mountain film?  (Read 8317 times)

Offline Artiste

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Where is the hay fun in the Brokeback Mountain film?
« on: March 30, 2007, 11:32:48 am »
I have just seen two men wrestling in the hay in a gay flick!

Where is all the hay in the Brokeback Mountain film?

Any by Annie?

After all Jack and Ennie were cowboys! So where is the hay fun?

Hugs!!



Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: Where is the hay fun in the Brokeback Mountain film?
« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2007, 02:30:13 pm »
Well, there was the time when Ennis rocked Jack as they were standing in front of the fire and Jack was sleepin on his feet like a horse, and Ennis said, "Time to hit the hay cowboy." That was more fun than a roll in the hay, any day!!
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Offline Artiste

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Re: Where is the hay fun in the Brokeback Mountain film?
« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2007, 08:31:25 pm »
Thanks Front-Ranger!!

You say this: Well, there was the time when Ennis rocked Jack as they were standing in front of the fire and Jack was sleepin on his feet like a horse, and Ennis said, "Time to hit the hay cowboy." That was more fun than a roll in the hay, any day!!
...

I must re-see that scene you mention.

If these two cowboys would have played in the hay, would it have been a full body massage??
I would have found that much more interesting!! But I guess that would have been for gay men and not for the general mostly straights audience Lee wanted??

Will you and others answer... on this potential hay scene(s)??

Hugs!!

Offline Ellemeno

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Re: Where is the hay fun in the Brokeback Mountain film?
« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2007, 07:53:37 pm »
There was the fun Ennis was having throwing hay out of the back of the truck to the cows.

Offline Artiste

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Re: Where is the hay fun in the Brokeback Mountain film?
« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2007, 08:32:30 pm »
Thanks Guinea-Effen-Pig!!

There were other scenes also with hay!

Maybe the two main actors did play in the hay??

Or others did??

Hugs!!

Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: Where is the hay fun in the Brokeback Mountain film?
« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2007, 06:36:35 pm »
Well, they rolled over and over in the grass and as they tumbled, their fun turned to anger and sadness, because they knew it was all coming to an end.
 :( Grass is a grain and so is hay.

I'm reminded of the Sting song (which is an ancient song) about walking thru fields of barley.

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Offline Artiste

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Re: Where is the hay fun in the Brokeback Mountain film?
« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2007, 09:25:53 pm »
Thanks Front-Ranger!

Yes, Ennis and Jack did play in the grass, as you say... like it is hay!!

I am wishing they played too, at least finished in some hay for fun as cowboys and others do!!

Wonder why the movie does not have them play in the hay?

Hugs!

Offline Ellemeno

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Re: Where is the hay fun in the Brokeback Mountain film?
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2007, 05:50:04 am »
Wonder why the movie does not have them play in the hay?

Hugs!

My guess is because the whole reason they took the sheep up on Brokeback was so that they could eat fresh grass (and all the other plants sheep eat), so that the ranchers wouldn't have to buy hay to feed them.  Jack and Ennis were what replaced hay. 

Offline Phillip Dampier

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Re: Where is the hay fun in the Brokeback Mountain film?
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2007, 09:45:04 am »
After all Jack and Ennie were cowboys! So where is the hay fun?

Here is my long-winded explanation on this point, with some extra stuff thrown in.

First, Annie would tell you they are not cowboys, but rather ranch hands.  Proulx doesn't want her story mixed up in the American popular culture myth of what represents a cowboy.

In this country, the concept of a "cowboy" is 75% cultural myth, 25% reality - more people dress like one and call themselves that than actually are, all the way up to our brush-clearing president.  And most of what defines a cowboy in this country, especially the travelling with the herd, was traditionally done by folks with a questionable record, the unemployable, or almost as common - the immigrant community and African-Americans that made up to 1/3rd of the cowboy community, hired for next to nothing by ranches, especially in the post slavery period of 1865-1900.

The cowboy reality that did exist in this country was more or less dead by the early 1900s after a disastrous winter in 1906 which wiped out huge swaths of cattle herds coupled with a growing amount of formerly open property for grazing being sold off and becoming unavailable to travelling herds of cattle, which resulted in more and more herds needing to be kept closer to home.  As the 20th century progressed, feed delivery and farming equipment made it possible to keep cattle on enclosed ranches, turning what used to be a cowboy into ranch employees and hands.

Proulx always emphasized Jack and Ennis served in a more authentic role of being "hands."  By trying to avoid (and it frankly didn't work) the "cowboy" label, Proulx was trying to stay real, and away from doing battle with the pop culture iconography of the cowboy.  The challenge of the image of the cowboy would be seen by all the usual "culture warrior" suspects as another attempt to usurp and destroy their cultural icons and images.

Proulx's efforts largely failed, and for several months in 2006 we had to endure the usual nonsense from the right wing attacking the film for its attempt to steal the notion of the cowboy (as they defined it in the terms of the cowboy myth) out from under "them."  Once something gets caught up in the silly culture wars, its deeper meaning gets lost as people debate only the surface issues.  I don't blame Proulx for this - the discussion was inevitable when you put two guys with western hats on horses herding anything.

Second, as far as the hay goes, sheep prefer to graze first on live broadleaf weeds, especially young and tender ones.  They'll then move on to eating live grasses, clover, and young shrubs.  They far prefer live plants to hay, which is fed to open grazing herds mostly in the winter when natural live foods aren't available.

A hay scene would have probably been seen as cliche (and it very much would be) and wouldn't make much sense, as there would be no reason for them to have hay up on Brokeback when there was an entire mountain pasture staring them in the face.

Ang Lee demanded authenticity on these points, which is why he went through a major nightmare of trying to get the province of Alberta to approve a domestic sheep herd grazing permit in an area shared by wild sheep in the area.  Unfortunately, domestic sheep often passed on viruses and other diseases to less resistant wild sheep, and provincial officials were extremely reluctant to grant permission.

Lee managed to convince them by literally putting down fake rubber mats covered with grass where the sheep congregated so that they could be removed with the sheep and limit potential exposure.  And many of the scenes in the film where sheep are seen off in the distance (and a few have them way, way off) are purely digital - the sheep were added later in the effects room.
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Offline RossInIllinois

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Re: Where is the hay fun in the Brokeback Mountain film?
« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2007, 10:08:56 am »
They were to busy Stemmin the Rose to bother with hay! ;)

Offline Artiste

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Re: Where is the hay fun in the Brokeback Mountain film?
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2007, 10:28:40 am »
Thanks Phillip Dampier!

Your details in your comment are very interesting!!

I never did write the words ranch hands, but always used the word cowboy(s), to describe
either Ennis and/or Jack, in the Brokeback Mountain film!! You are waking me up with the expression: ranch hands!! And did Annie ever used the word cowboy in the story?

Annie did set Jack in the rodeo, so so Jack is then a cowboy? Most rodeo men consider themselves ranch hands or cowboys??

Please explain this too:
Lee managed to convince them by literally putting down fake rubber mats covered with grass where the sheep congregated...
...
Those rubber mats covered with grass, they were for the wild sheep only??
Didn't Lee use both wild and domestic sheep?? But had to separate them,
as that was/is my impression I made somehow in order Lee did not to affect either kinds of sheep with potential deseases??


As far as digital sheep, yes that was made, and some images of that were added in some scenes (HOW MANY?? Even one lake was taken out and fake sheep by digital (computorized) drawings were added instead to that area as a grassy spot for sheep, did you know?? And that digital work, it was made in Canada, by a co.; you know which one?? If you want to see that which is highly interesting, you will get this internet clip, as I had found such before someone gave it to me on one of my threads. But I do not know if any other such or similar clips exists, do you?? Or other cos used too for digital additions?

Glad of your news Phillip Dampier,
and I await your comments,

hugs!!



Offline Artiste

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Re: Where is the hay fun in the Brokeback Mountain film?
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2007, 10:31:10 am »
Thanks RossInIllinois!!

You say this about (Jack and Ennis):
They were to busy Stemmin the Rose to bother with hay.
...

Don't you think that playing in the hay could have been a scene??

Hugs!!

Offline RossInIllinois

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Re: Where is the hay fun in the Brokeback Mountain film?
« Reply #12 on: April 03, 2007, 12:21:11 pm »
Thanks RossInIllinois!!

You say this about (Jack and Ennis):
They were to busy Stemmin the Rose to bother with hay.


...

Don't you think that playing in the hay could have been a scene??

Hugs!!



Oh sure!

Offline Artiste

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Re: Where is the hay fun in the Brokeback Mountain film?
« Reply #13 on: April 03, 2007, 12:51:34 pm »
Thanks RossInIllinois!

Do you think Ennis and Jack had hay in the tent in those two first sex/love scenes??

Hugs!

Offline LauraGigs

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Re: Where is the hay fun in the Brokeback Mountain film?
« Reply #14 on: April 03, 2007, 01:06:42 pm »
Artiste, have you ever handled hay?  Rolled around in it, played in it, et cetera? 

The fact is, hay can be kind of rough, splintery and pokey!  Also rather dusty and buggy.  (Note that when Ennis throws it to the animals, he's wearing gloves.)  Not the kind of thing you want to roll around in naked!

The whole idea of making love in hay is just a silly fantasy-stereotype that I imagine few people have actually done.  We as non-cowboys (or non-ranch hands, that is) may fantasize about it.  But guys like Jack + Ennis had few romantic illusions about hay since they worked with it all the time.

A nice soft bedroll would therefore be much more appealing!
« Last Edit: April 03, 2007, 01:15:13 pm by LauraGigs »

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Where is the hay fun in the Brokeback Mountain film?
« Reply #15 on: April 03, 2007, 01:43:04 pm »
Proulx doesn't want her story mixed up in the American popular culture myth of what represents a cowboy.
...  By trying to avoid (and it frankly didn't work) the "cowboy" label, Proulx was trying to stay real, and away from doing battle with the pop culture iconography of the cowboy.  The challenge of the image of the cowboy would be seen by all the usual "culture warrior" suspects as another attempt to usurp and destroy their cultural icons and images.

Very informative post, Phillip! I didn't know all that about the grass mats, etc.

But I'm surprised that Proulx's intention was NOT to have her story take on the cultural mythology surrounding cowboys. To me, part of the story's power derives from that very thing, that cowboys are seen as the ultimate "macho" icon and therefore widely presumed straight. I've always assumed that undermining those assumptions was Proulx's deliberate and brilliant intention.

I know technically Jack and Ennis are not cowboys, but close enough. If everything else were the same about the story and movie, except that the men were letter carriers or accountants or dentists or bus drivers, I think something would be lost.



Offline Artiste

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Re: Where is the hay fun in the Brokeback Mountain film?
« Reply #16 on: April 03, 2007, 03:11:19 pm »
Thanks ineedcrayons!

Yes, I did too find what Phillip Dampier about those grass mats a surprise!!

Ineedcrayons you say this:
I know technically Jack and Ennis are not cowboys, but close enough.
...

May I say the same as you here, as Ennis and Jack are like cowboys to me, as well as ranch hands!!
Ennis and Jack, they both did rodeos??

Hugs!!

Offline Phillip Dampier

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Re: Where is the hay fun in the Brokeback Mountain film?
« Reply #17 on: April 03, 2007, 07:04:54 pm »
Very informative post, Phillip! I didn't know all that about the grass mats, etc.

But I'm surprised that Proulx's intention was NOT to have her story take on the cultural mythology surrounding cowboys. To me, part of the story's power derives from that very thing, that cowboys are seen as the ultimate "macho" icon and therefore widely presumed straight. I've always assumed that undermining those assumptions was Proulx's deliberate and brilliant intention.

I know technically Jack and Ennis are not cowboys, but close enough. If everything else were the same about the story and movie, except that the men were letter carriers or accountants or dentists or bus drivers, I think something would be lost.

In this case, she wanted authenticity over folklore, which is why she went with ranch hands.  In one of the first specials we'll have on Radio 2, I'll be including a feature interview with Proulx where she gets seriously annoyed with the interviewer the moment he says "cowboys."  She has been very insistent on this point.  She got the idea of the story after sitting in a Wyoming bar/restaurant where an obviously gay couple came in to be served.  The moment they left, the owner/bartender started making a lot of loud, disparaging comments about the couple, which Proulx overheard.  The contemplation of what life must have been like for someone growing up in Wyoming and confronting their homosexuality sparked the idea for the story.  She wanted the two guys to be working class/poor and being otherwise considered "straight" in their interests and attitudes.

She never intended to make a sweeping societal statement or to bust stereotypes.  She wanted to tell a story based on what life must be like for those who, like Jack and Ennis, grew up in a culture and society that has few, in any, resources for gay people.  In the 1960s, in all but the largest cities, the issue was rarely, if ever discussed.  Even into the early 1970s, there was a moratorium on exploring the issue.  Remember shows like Ironside and Streets of San Francisco?  How many gay folks were portrayed in those shows set in a city hip deep in them?  :)

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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Where is the hay fun in the Brokeback Mountain film?
« Reply #18 on: April 03, 2007, 07:30:15 pm »
The contemplation of what life must have been like for someone growing up in Wyoming and confronting their homosexuality sparked the idea for the story.  She wanted the two guys to be working class/poor and being otherwise considered "straight" in their interests and attitudes.

She never intended to make a sweeping societal statement or to bust stereotypes.  She wanted to tell a story based on what life must be like for those who, like Jack and Ennis, grew up in a culture and society that has few, in any, resources for gay people.

Oh, OK. Well, that makes sense, too. And of course it's natural that Annie would set her story in a Western millieu, since that's what she writes about, and ranch hand is a typical working-class Western job. And having them take a summer job together in an isolated sheep-grazing area is a good way to get the plot going.

Still, I don't mind if the story undermines overmythologized icons at the same time. If John Wayne is turning in his grave (as a few Hollywood types commented around last year's academy awards), it doesn't bother me. Figuratively speaking, I mean; I don't necessarily have anything against John Wayne, specifically.  ;D

Offline Artiste

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Re: Where is the hay fun in the Brokeback Mountain film?
« Reply #19 on: April 03, 2007, 09:48:23 pm »
Thanks Phillip Dampier!

Very, very interesting is your comment here:
In this case, she wanted authenticity over folklore, which is why she went with ranch hands.  In one of the first specials we'll have on Radio 2, I'll be including a feature interview with Proulx where she gets seriously annoyed with the interviewer the moment he says "cowboys."  She has been very insistent on this point.  She got the idea of the story after sitting in a Wyoming bar/restaurant where an obviously gay couple came in to be served.  The moment they left, the owner/bartender started making a lot of loud, disparaging comments about the couple, which Proulx overheard.  The contemplation of what life must have been like for someone growing up in Wyoming and confronting their homosexuality sparked the idea for the story.  She wanted the two guys to be working class/poor and being otherwise considered "straight" in their interests and attitudes.

She never intended to make a sweeping societal statement or to bust stereotypes.  She wanted to tell a story based on what life must be like for those who, like Jack and Ennis, grew up in a culture and society that has few, in any, resources for gay people.
...

When did Annie say she was in that bar where she say two gay guys? May I ask?
And when was that interview done?

So great to get your news,

hugs!!

Offline Artiste

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Re: Where is the hay fun in the Brokeback Mountain film?
« Reply #20 on: April 09, 2007, 02:59:36 pm »
When??

Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: Where is the hay fun in the Brokeback Mountain film?
« Reply #21 on: September 18, 2007, 02:36:28 pm »
I saw something at the recent Castro showing that made me think about this. Anyone else notice that when Ennis picks up Alma Jr. to go to dinner at the bar, there's hay in the back of his truck??

Speaking of hay, here's the hay that the roadtrippers sat on to go up to Brokenback Mountain!

"chewing gum and duct tape"

Offline Artiste

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Re: Where is the hay fun in the Brokeback Mountain film?
« Reply #22 on: October 03, 2007, 09:31:20 pm »
Wow great hay!!

And wonder if all men there are gays in this pic??

Hugs!! Come now play till October 14th 2007 in Quebec City as I am exhibiting my paintings here now??

Will we play in the hay??  My framer told me today that he has a horse... wonder what he meant??

Hugs!!

Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: Where is the hay fun in the Brokeback Mountain film?
« Reply #23 on: October 12, 2007, 09:50:46 pm »
Thanks RossInIllinois!

Do you think Ennis and Jack had hay in the tent in those two first sex/love scenes??

Hugs!

No, but they had HAIL in the third tent scene! That's the one where Ennis gathers hail in his hat, and then the tent opening is abruptly closed!

"chewing gum and duct tape"

Offline Artiste

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Re: Where is the hay fun in the Brokeback Mountain film?
« Reply #24 on: October 12, 2007, 09:56:37 pm »
Thanks very much Front-Ranger! It is so good to hear from you again!
You made my day!

And great that you remind me about hay! Do you still wonder as I, that there is NO hay in that tent?

Hugs!

Offline Artiste

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Re: Where is the hay fun in the Brokeback Mountain film?
« Reply #25 on: May 11, 2008, 12:50:39 pm »
Insatead of having fun in the car, maybe it would have been better to have Jack and Lureen in the hay ?

Offline Artiste

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Re: Where is the hay fun in the Brokeback Mountain film?
« Reply #26 on: June 15, 2008, 07:57:25 pm »
Why not have had Lureen and Jack play in the hay ?