Why was the Dozy Embrace so sad?

[Cameron]

The Dozy Embrace is my favorite scene lately.  I watched it again last night and nearly cried.  So I have been thinking about this and I am trying to figure it out.  Why exactly was the DE so sad?  Was it mostly sad because it appeared in the end of the movie, when we knew so much?  Especially the heartbreaking contrast between the beautiful young men that Ennis and Jack were to the sad, broken (esp. Ennis, in MHO) men that they became. Was it sad mainly because of its context?

Or was the DE just inherently sad by itself, devoid of context?  Obviously if it appeared where it should be time wise, near the end of the time up on the mountain, it wouldn't have been so devastating, but I still think would be very poignant and bittersweet on it's own or if it was earlier.  The only thing is I am trying to figure out exactly why?

I guess it was so sad  because of the expression on Ennis/Heath's face, and to hear him talk about his mother and to hear him hum like he did.  But I am not sure really why else the scene so sad on it's own.

I am sure that this has been discussed before, but I do think the film DE and the book DE are entirely different though. I do not believe that the film DE happened because film Ennis was afraid to hug Jack face to face, obviously he wasn't.

Anyway, I am trying to figure out why the DE is so sad, just on it's own.

[Scott6373]

That's actually quite an easy question to answer.  It represents everything that was, and everything that could have been.  Not just for Jack and Ennis, but for all the characters.  It was a reminder of innocence lost, and opportunity passed by.  Regrets, it was about regrets.

[Cameron]

Hi Scott,

Yeah that is true completely but that is because we know the about all the regrets.  But when it actually happened there were no regrets yet.  So by itself is it so sad?  Just looking at the scene without thinking about everything else, I think it still is.

I hope that I am being clear and making sense.  Sometimes I don't.

[Front-Ranger]

Your questions really made me think, Cameron. At first, I decided that the DE scene would be a happy one if it occurred out of context. But then I thought again. There IS something inherently sad about the scene. There are little clues. The soft grey muted colors. The half-extinguished fire, the smoke, the empty containers, the downcast eyes, heads, and hats, the muffled sounds of the horse. The "trembling" of Ennis's spurs. But, most of all, it's Ennis's rocking and humming of a lullabye. It's knowing that the words unsaid in this scene will remain unsayable and unspoken for their whole lives.

In Asian cultures, it is believed that part of the appeal of beautiful things is that they are fleeting and doomed. Beauty is ephemeral and elusive. Isn't that true? I thought that today as I caught sight of the full moon, shining in all its glory just a minute before it dipped below the horizon.

Ang Lee was in Europe one time attending a film festival and he was standing at a phone booth after the screening of his film near a line of women waiting to get into the restroom. They all had tears streaming down their faces. He said, "Just once I would like to make a movie that doesn't make women cry." His next film, Ride With the Devil, was a tearjerker just like Brokeback Mountain is!

[Scott6373]

Hi Scott,

Yeah that is true completely but that is because we know the about all the regrets.  But when it actually happened there were no regrets yet.  So by itself is it so sad?  Just looking at the scene without thinking about everything else, I think it still is.

I hope that I am being clear and making sense.  Sometimes I don't.

No you're making sense. but the scene never existed in our minds before that moment.  It is really just an artistic device, they used...a manipulative one.  We also cannot be sure that the scene even really happened the way it was either written or filmed.  It's Jack's memory, and you know how memories are so long after the fact.  He was a dreamer and an idealist, so it likely never really happened that way.

[RossInIllinois]

I worked on the Movie. Did you know the Dozy Embrace was really a whole scene that Ang Lee cut out? It was. Ennis sings Jack a whole song in that position one his Mother used to sing to him. It was a BEAUTIFUL scene, Why they cut it from the film I have no idea. What you see was supposed to be a flashback of that original scene. Its a shame they left the whole thing out. It was exquisite.

[Scott6373]

I worked on the Movie. Did you know the Dozy Embrace was really a whole scene that Ang Lee cut out? It was. Ennis sings Jack a whole song in that position one his Mother used to sing to him. It was a BEAUTIFUL scene, Why they cut it from the film I have no idea. What you see was supposed to be a flashback of that original scene. Its a shame they left the whole thing out. It was exquisite.

I'm not sure I would have liked that.  The FB was so unexpected to a viewer who did not read the story.  It was unsettling and comforting at the same time.

[Cameron]

Wow!!! That would be something I would give anything to see.  Well almost anything!!  How incredible that you actually worked on the movie.

Lee, thank you for your wonderful answer.  You did lay out all those things that do make it so melancholy.

Another thing was actually thinking about.  In the book it is clearly Jacks flashback, but I was also wondering if in the movie it could have been Ennis's somehow.

I do wish there was some way to actually see the whole scene, I never ever knew that there was to be more.

[Cameron]

Ross, I just read your post again.  You mean it was to be a whole scene when it actually happened, up on the mountain?

If so when exactly was that?  That's something else that I was always wondering about.

[Front-Ranger]

Another excellent discussion of the Dozy Embrace can be found here:

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,3489.0.html

[southendmd]

Ang seems always to tend to make things spare.

I have to recall my very first viewing (before reading the story).  The lake scene argument was so intense, so much anger and disappointment, ending with Ennis's collapsing.  

Then, such contrast with the dozy embrace, seeing them young and in love, and so tender (in a way we hadn't seen since TS2) was overwhelming to me.  What particularly struck me, besides Ennis's humming, was the look of utter love on Jack's face as he watches Ennis on horseback depart.

That face is then replaced by older Jack's resigned, hardened face watching Ennis's truck depart.  I think then one realizes the DE is Jack's memory; that makes it all the sadder.

I personally think it more effective without an earlier DE.  

Of course, later, reading the story, I found it the most beautiful passage.  The story DE is certainly sadder than the film, because of Ennis's denial.  

Here's what Annie wrote about the DE:  The most difficult scene was the paragraph where, on the mountain, Ennis holds Jack and rocks back and forth, humming, the moment mixed with childhood loss and his refusal to admit he was holding a man. This paragraph took forever to get right, and I played Charlie Haden's and Pat Metheny's Spiritual, from their album Beyond the Missouri Sky (short stories) uncountable times, trying to get the words. I was trying to write the inchoate feelings of Jack and Ennis, the sad impossibility of their liaison, which for me was expressed in that music. To this day, I cannot hear that track without Jack and Ennis appearing before me.

(BTW, here's the gorgeous youtube flashback in slow motion with the music she mentions:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yi6i8bfwV-w)

[RossInIllinois]

Ross, I just read your post again.  You mean it was to be a whole scene when it actually happened, up on the mountain?

If so when exactly was that?  That's something else that I was always wondering about.

I'm under the impression that it was to be shortly after the first love making scene right before the "first snow" scene to show how the relationship was going from awkward to loving and tender. We also spent almost a week on a scene with them rescuing a bunch of Hippies that got there flower power van stuck in a creek bed on one of there rendezvous. It was totally cut but was an afterthought written by one of the Producers and Ang hated the scene but shot it anyway and obviously never included it in his final cut.

To add, The reason this scene is so sad is because its the only scene in the movie where you see Ennis loving and tender with Jack Twist. He is only at that time and place exactly what Jack always wanted him to be.

[Jeff Wrangler]

I'm under the impression that it was to be shortly after the first love making scene right before the "first snow" scene to show how the relationship was going from awkward to loving and tender. We also spent almost a week on a scene with them rescuing a bunch of Hippies that got there flower power van stuck in a creek bed on one of there rendezvous. It was totally cut but was an afterthought written by one of the Producers and Ang hated the scene but shot it anyway and obviously never included it in his final cut.

That makes chronological sense. Would it have been between "the first time" and the second tent scene? That would have accorded with the part in the story's description of Jack's memory that at the time it took place, Ennis couldn't bring himself to acknowledge that it was a man he was embracing.

On the other hand, placed where it is, as a flashback that we didn't see when it actually took place in 1963, it's very true to Annie Proulx's narrative.

Still, I wish it could have gone on just a bit longer. ... 

[Cameron]

So do I.......

[Brokeback_Dev]

The Dozy embrace scene makes me cry every time i see it.  I have a tear in my eye just reading this thread.  Espesically the look on Jacks face as Ennis hops up and rides off.  Jack turns to watch him ride away.  We see that longing loving face of Jack....one of earlier times

then we're brought back to the reality that Jack is older and broken i think, as he sees Ennis drive away with the horse trailer.  Thats the scene is the last we see them together.

[Cameron]

That makes chronological sense. Would it have been between "the first time" and the second tent scene? That would have accorded with the part in the story's description of Jack's memory that at the time it took place, Ennis couldn't bring himself to acknowledge that it was a man he was embracing.

On the other hand, placed where it is, as a flashback that we didn't see when it actually took place in 1963, it's very true to Annie Proulx's narrative.

It is confusing to try to figure out when it took place.  I always thought it happened at the very end of the summer.  Actually I always thought it was the evening before the morning that Ennis wakes up in the snow.  But it does make sense that it could have happened between TS1 and TS2 in the movie, because after TS 2 movie Ennis clearly has no problem being with Jack face to face.

But then again, didn't TS 2 most likely happen the evening after TS 1, so when could it have happened?  That would have made sense if there was actually more sex before TS 2, like I think there was supposed to be in the earlier scripts. But as the film is I don't know where there was time for it, so I always thought it wasn't about Ennis not being able to face Jack.  I have thought that it was just a pure expression of love that just happened that way.

But of course there never was a TS 2 in the book.  So maybe there is no way to really figure it out.

But I still wish it was longer.....

[RossInIllinois]

That makes chronological sense. Would it have been between "the first time" and the second tent scene? That would have accorded with the part in the story's description of Jack's memory that at the time it took place, Ennis couldn't bring himself to acknowledge that it was a man he was embracing.

On the other hand, placed where it is, as a flashback that we didn't see when it actually took place in 1963, it's very true to Annie Proulx's narrative.

Still, I wish it could have gone on just a bit longer. ... 

It was intended to be in both spots the longer full version before the flash back version. Thats why when you see the flash back version its confusing as to where or when. With the intended long version in place as well the latter version its then easily known as a recollection of something established in the past. They should have added the scene to the collector DVD but they didn't. As I recall Heath Ledger did not like the fact that the scene was written in a way that made him look like the sheep were more important than Jack. He didn't like the fact that he just turns away and rides off to the sheep camp, but thats the way it was written and they wanted to play it.

[Front-Ranger]

As far as I'm concerned, it was some time after they switched places and after they became lovers, but before they left the mountain. What more slicing and dicing is needed? And, thinking more about what makes the scene sad, I think it is the music that makes it so, more than any other thing. The music adds so much. When you listen to the soundtrack, it is almost like viewing the movie, just like the whole experience. But when you look at the movie without sound, there is so much missing.

As I listen to the soundtrack, there is a theme that is introduced and then is repeated again, and only in the third repetition (the dozy embrace) is it complete with strings and all the instruments. This is the climax of the film orchestrally.

[Jeff Wrangler]

It is confusing to try to figure out when it took place.  I always thought it happened at the very end of the summer.  Actually I always thought it was the evening before the morning that Ennis wakes up in the snow.  But it does make sense that it could have happened between TS1 and TS2 in the movie, because after TS 2 movie Ennis clearly has no problem being with Jack face to face.

But then again, didn't TS 2 most likely happen the evening after TS 1, so when could it have happened?  That would have made sense if there was actually more sex before TS 2, like I think there was supposed to be in the earlier scripts. But as the film is I don't know where there was time for it, so I always thought it wasn't about Ennis not being able to face Jack.  I have thought that it was just a pure expression of love that just happened that way.

But of course there never was a TS 2 in the book.  So maybe there is no way to really figure it out.

But I still wish it was longer.....

It's funny. I deliberately re-read the story before I saw the film the weekend it opened here in Philadelphia, and even I was confused for about half a minute, maybe a little less, when the flashback came on screen. Then I realized what was happening and was stunned--not for the first time--at how faithful the film was to Annie Proulx's story.

We've had intense debates over the length of time between TS1 and TS2. Maybe it would have made more sense for the full version of the dozy embrace to come after TS2 but before the snow storm?

It was intended to be in both spots the longer full version before the flash back version. Thats why when you see the flash back version its confusing as to where or when. With the intended long version in place as well the latter version its then easily known as a recollection of something established in the past. They should have added the scene to the collector DVD but they didn't. As I recall Heath Ledger did not like the fact that the scene was written in a way that made him look like the sheep were more important than Jack. He didn't like the fact that he just turns away and rides off to the sheep camp, but thats the way it was written and they wanted to play it.

Interesting that Heath should feel that way about the scene. Again, Ennis riding back to the sheep is true to the story and seems to fit with the way we see his attitude toward the job in the film.

[Cameron]

As far as I'm concerned, it was some time after they switched places and after they became lovers, but before they left the mountain. What more slicing and dicing is needed? And, thinking more about what makes the scene sad, I think it is the music that makes it so, more than any other thing. The music adds so much. When you listen to the soundtrack, it is almost like viewing the movie, just like the whole experience. But when you look at the movie without sound, there is so much missing.

As I listen to the soundtrack, there is a theme that is introduced and then is repeated again, and only in the third repetition (the dozy embrace) is it complete with strings and all the instruments. This is the climax of the film orchestrally.

I do totally agree with you about the music.  I finally got the soundtrack a couple of weeks ago and I listened to it last night, and you are so right, just listening to that part brought back all  the feelings of actually seeing it.  In fact I don't think that I really appreciated the DE until I began really paying attention to the music.

So maybe the music is one of the most important factors in making the DE so sad by itself.

And Jeff, I didn't read the book before I saw it  and it took me a few times till I got what was happening. I certainly would love to see that full scene.

[Jeff Wrangler]

And Jeff, I didn't read the book before I saw it  and it took me a few times till I got what was happening. I certainly would love to see that full scene.

Not to question Ang Lee's judgment, or anything,  but I've often wondered about the potential of the flashback to confuse people who were not familiar with the story, since it momentarily confused me, and I've known the story since it was first published in The New Yorker in 1997. It's seemed to me that the cut to the younger Jack was a little abrupt.

[Scott6373]

Not to question Ang Lee's judgment, or anything,  but I've often wondered about the potential of the flashback to confuse people who were not familiar with the story, since it momentarily confused me, and I've known the story since it was first published in The New Yorker in 1997. It's seemed to me that the cut to the younger Jack was a little abrupt.

I had just read the story a week before seeing the film, and I must confess, that I only read it once, so all the nuance wasn't in my soul at that point, but I didn't find it that jarring.  I mean, there was a moments confusion, but I soon realized what I was seeing.  I think Lee may have intended that sense of incongruity, to heighten the emotional moment.

[HerrKaiser]

I thought the cut away to the flashback was superbly executed; perhaps Lee could have used a fade to show time movement backward, but I think that would have been too literal. The thrill of realizing the flashback quickly, and the "I got it" rush was wonderful...and very, very foreshadowing. Had the flashback been less subtle, the clouds of ominous things to come would have been too obvious, imo.

Also, the dozy embrace itself, was, to me, sensationally uplifiting, joyous, moving, emotional, and truly male. The manner in which low-key Ennis dominates the embrace and hums to Jack is one of the most endearing 'love scenes' on film. I rate it up there with the end kiss between Audrey Hepburn and George Peppard in Breakfast at Tiffany's. The richness of their singular being is clear. pure wonder.

[HorseLove]

I would love to have heard Ennis sing.  I think it would have been even more poignant to hear a song coming from Ennis' mouth to Jack's ear.  From a man who hardly says a word, to sing.  From a man who hardly shows affection to embrace another man.  Then when Jack turns to see him leave, Jacks longing glare would've made more sense.  I wonder if it was cut due to movie length?

I would give anything to see the whole scene.
HW

[Scott6373]

I would love to have heard Ennis sing.  I think it would have been even more poignant to hear a song coming from Ennis' mouth to Jack's ear.  From a man who hardly says a word, to sing.  From a man who hardly shows affection to embrace another man.  Then when Jack turns to see him leave, Jacks longing glare would've made more sense.  I wonder if it was cut due to movie length?

I would give anything to see the whole scene.
HW

Well HW...it's not likely, but ya never know...good to see you posting

[Cameron]

You know what else is different about the DE?  It is the only scene in which Jack is totally quiet and Ennis is speaking, sort of.  I guess that somehow also makes it different and special.

I said it before, but I will say it again.  Oh, I would looooooooove to see the whole scene.

(I wish there was a "sigh" smiley here.)

[HorseLove]

said it before, but I will say it again.  Oh, I would looooooooove to see the whole scene.

Or at least the name of the song Ennis sang to Jack.  Do you know, RossinIllinois?

HW

[RossInIllinois]

Or at least the name of the song Ennis sang to Jack.  Do you know, RossinIllinois?

HW

No I sure don't. I was standing a bit off to the side when that was filmed and the dialogue was very soft spoken. I do remember in one take they even rocked a bit as he sang the words to the song.  It was a very sweet scene. It seems in a lot of places Ang didn't like "sweet" once it was cut.

[Front-Ranger]

I think Lee may have intended that sense of incongruity, to heighten the emotional moment.

Yes, I planned it that way!   No, seriously, I think Ang put in the long tracking shot starting at the campfire and up Jack's jeans to help us make the transition. Altho some people probly got stuck at the Jack's jeans part! Also, he showed Jack in a 3/4 profile to make sure we saw the lack of sideburns and mustache. From the little bit of footage that made it into the film plus the rather loud background music it is iimpossible to tell what Ennis is humming. But I have privately thought it might have well been "heddy down" a lullabye that Woodie Guthrie sang to his son Arlo when he was young. I have a recording of this somewheres...

But it was probably really "Waltzing Matilda!" Ross, do you know??

[RossInIllinois]

Yes, I planned it that way!   No, seriously, I think Ang put in the long tracking shot starting at the campfire and up Jack's jeans to help us make the transition. Although some people probly got stuck at the Jack's jeans part! Also, he showed Jack in a 3/4 profile to make sure we saw the lack of sideburns and mustache. From the little bit of footage that made it into the film plus the rather loud background music it is iimpossible to tell what Ennis is humming. But I have privately thought it might have well been "heddy down" a lullabye that Woodie Guthrie sang to his son Arlo when he was young. I have a recording of this somewheres...

But it was probably really "Waltzing Matilda!" Ross, do you know??

Hi read up one for the answer to the last question.  That flash back was a whole big scene. what you see in the final cut are pasted together little snippets of the whole. It was beautiful .

[serious crayons]

I've often wondered about the potential of the flashback to confuse people who were not familiar with the story, since it momentarily confused me, and I've known the story since it was first published in The New Yorker in 1997.

There are lots of people, maybe more on imdb than here, who thought at first it was a blooper that Jack suddenly appeared without a moustache! 

As I recall Heath Ledger did not like the fact that the scene was written in a way that made him look like the sheep were more important than Jack. He didn't like the fact that he just turns away and rides off to the sheep camp,

How sweet that he thought that! Happy birthday again, Heath! 

However, I think Ennis' behavior in the flashback is totally in character -- there's always that conflict between wanting to be with Jack and at the same time feeling it's his "responsibility" to ride away.

I believe this scene happened, chronologically, the night before the snowstorm that ended their time on the mountain, for reasons of symmetry and symbolism. When Ennis says "See you in the morning," then turns around and leaves, he assumes he WILL see Jack in the morning. And technically, he does -- but in a figurative way, he doesn't. In the morning there is snow, and when he next sees Jack he's tearing down the tent and their summer is effectively over and things are no longer the same between them (until the reunion).

The dozy embrace is mirrored in the lake scene, when Ennis is again driving away (apparently without looking back), and Jack is again gazing after him. Again, there is snow: snow on the mountains, snow in Jack's prediction the night before and implicitly in his complaints about the cold. Again, Ennis fully expects to see Jack "in the morning" -- that is, in November, the next time they're scheduled to get together. But this time he doesn't. After that, things will never be the same again.

To me, that elevates the phrase "see you in the morning" to a higher level of meaning. See you in the next life? See you someday in a world where homophobia won't keep us apart? I'm not saying it's meant to be literal. But it resonates so much more to think of if as the last words they exchange before not seeing each other again.

[Phillip Dampier]

I'm under the impression that it was to be shortly after the first love making scene right before the "first snow" scene to show how the relationship was going from awkward to loving and tender. We also spent almost a week on a scene with them rescuing a bunch of Hippies that got there flower power van stuck in a creek bed on one of there rendezvous. It was totally cut but was an afterthought written by one of the Producers and Ang hated the scene but shot it anyway and obviously never included it in his final cut.

Oh God... the Mystery Machine & Scooby Doo on Brokeback Mountain.    Jinkies....

Of course, all of this stuff never showed up on the "collector's edition" DVD which was essentially pointless.  Considering the amount of time people here spend on reviewing every single frame of this film, having a deleted scenes reel to contemplate would have been an amazing gift to the community.  One thing that I noticed is that outside of Aguirre that first year, nobody ever intruded on their mountain time together.

As an aside, the very first time I saw the film, I didn't realize it -was- a flashback to that first year, but I was numb by that point in the film anyway.

[Phillip Dampier]

Pulled temporarily because the wrong revision got posted... it'll be back shortly.

[southendmd]

Thanks, Phillip.  I have a question:  I can make out Ennis humming "Cowboy's Lament/Street of Laredo" just before he comes on the bear.  I assumed that was what was being credited.  Did you hear Ennis humming the same in the dozy embrace?  I could never make it out, especially with the swelling soundtrack.

BTW, I learned "Streets of Laredo" in Catholic school in Massachusetts!  They didn't change it to the "Streets of Lowell". LOL

Paul

[Front-Ranger]

What? You grew up in Lowell?? That is Jack Kerouac's hometown!! Wow!!

[Phillip Dampier]

Thanks, Phillip.  I have a question:  I can make out Ennis humming "Cowboy's Lament/Street of Laredo" just before he comes on the bear.  I assumed that was what was being credited.  Did you hear Ennis humming the same in the dozy embrace?  I could never make it out, especially with the swelling soundtrack.

BTW, I learned "Streets of Laredo" in Catholic school in Massachusetts!  They didn't change it to the "Streets of Lowell". LOL

Paul

Yes, that is what he's humming before the bear scene.  My apologies that I wasn't more clear about that - the wrong revision got posted - I was working on this in a different editor.  I have to fix an issue with the final revision and then it will be back in more clarity!

[moremojo]

I need some clarification on the song element. It was my understanding that the tune Ennis is humming early on in the film, when he's bringing back the victuals picked up from the Basque at the bridge, and right before he encounters the bear, is "The Cowboy's Lament", which is indeed cited in the film's closing credits. So I gather that the tune/lullaby that Ennis briefly hums to Jack in the dozy embrace is also "The Cowboy's Lament" (aka "The Streets of Laredo", aka "My Home's in Montana")?

By the way, I never could really hear the humming in the earlier sequence in my theatrical viewings, and couldn't really discern any distinctive tune in the dozy embrace, either. It was only with my exposure to the DVD that I finally picked up on the earlier humming, though I still can't really pick out the tune, either here or in the dozy embrace.

[southendmd]

What? You grew up in Lowell?? That is Jack Kerouac's hometown!! Wow!!

No, Lee, just riffing on the Laredo/Larkin change.  

But, I believe Louise did!

[Phillip Dampier]

This is not my day.  After putting up the wrong revision of my message, the database decided to corrupt the whole thing and poof --- away it went.  So my apologies to folks, because unless someone happens to have saved a copy of it, I am going to have to rewrite it from scratch.  Argh!!!!   One of the annoying things about this software is that once you modify a message, what you wrote before is gone.  I would have been safer deleting it, because that would have stuck around until the forum software did its compression routine.

I'm like the angry bear in the creek right now.  Grrrrr.....

[Cameron]

The dozy embrace is mirrored in the lake scene, when Ennis is again driving away (apparently without looking back), and Jack is again gazing after him. Again, there is snow: snow on the mountains, snow in Jack's prediction the night before and implicitly in his complaints about the cold. Again, Ennis fully expects to see Jack "in the morning" -- that is, in November, the next time they're scheduled to get together. But this time he doesn't. After that, things will never be the same again.

To me, that elevates the phrase "see you in the morning" to a higher level of meaning. See you in the next life? See you someday in a world where homophobia won't keep us apart? I'm not saying it's meant to be literal. But it resonates so much more to think of if as the last words they exchange before not seeing each other again.

I was thinking about this, and I watched it again several times, and I now totally agree.  I believe that "I gotta go" and "see you in the morning" can totally be taken as not just literal statements, but also I guess as representations of their whole lives.

The DE is one of the very few moments when Ennis is at peace.  I think that "I gotta go" means not just that he has to leave Jack to go to the sheep, but that he has to leave this world with Jack where he is at peace, because of all the pressures that he has put on himself and that society has put on him.  I think Ennis's/Heaths expression is remarkable, it's not happiness really, it seems to be almost a recognition that being with Jack like that was the only time since being with his Momma that he is complete and whole in a way.  But he had to leave because he didn't have the strength to live in that world of peace and comfort with Jack and go against his internal demons and societies pressures.

I also agree that "see you in the morning'' could have been a prophecy, that he will see Jack in the next life, or whenever the time came when Ennis would be able to live the life that he needed to with Jack, and all the pressures that have stopped him previously don't exist anymore.

I hope this makes sense at all.

[brokebackjack]

The dozy embrace is a scene of consummate beauty with elements and symbolism running the entire spectrum of emotions. It has everything: ones dearest wish fulfilled, a young love both pure and simple, an honesty which only the dim and dense cannot see and feel with every breath and whisper on the screen.

Ennis behind jack...why? because he would be standing in the fire if he embraced him from the front.

Standing within the fire....

The spit on that fire so like the tire iron which ended Jack's life.

The flames of the fire itself illuminating and warming both, inevitably to die down.

 The iconic imagery of the  macho and tough Cowboy  turned tender and hesitant, tender and sweet, while giving up nothing to life and circumstances.

The image of the cowboy wannabe having his most cherished wish fulfilled. Beauty made to glow in the eyes of JT.

But we know the ending.

And you ask why it so sad yet  iconically beautiful??

[Lynne]

I think there are some excellent posts here.  The dozy embrace is certainly one of the most poignant moments in the movie - to see Jack after his confrontation with Ennis at the lake flash back to a time when they were unencumbered by the complications of their lives after that blissful summer, only to be shoved back into the here and now - Ennis driving away, leaving Jack bitterly unhappy.

It seems Ennis was always leaving Jack because responsibilities were calling.

I don't want us to forget Annie Proulx's version of the dozy embrace, though.  I think the movie somehow softens and romanticizes it in a way that the short story did not:

"Later, that dozy embrace solidified in his memory as the single moment of artless, charmed happiness in their separate and difficult lives.  Nothing marred it, even the knowledge that Ennis would not then embrace him face to face because he did not want to see nor feel that it was Jack he held.  And maybe, he thought, they'd never got much farther than that.  Let be, let be."

Do others think that the film minimizes this aspect of their relationship, focusing more on the affection and happiness of that idyllic time on the mountain and less on Ennis' inability to accept himself and his love for Jack?

[brokebackjack]

No, I think it is faithful to the spirit of the SS and-- in particular--the DE is portrayed exactly the way it was written as regarding  both emotional content and imagery. It has every characteristic  bestowed upon it by AP. The abrupt switch from Happy Young Jack to the dissillusioned 39 year old who had been brought to very dark places by his love for EDM IMO leaves the emotioan content of the DE as written intact. As a matter of fact I think it enhances it.

One way or the other, one PLACE or the other, every bit of Annie's dialogue is in that film. We spent weeks going over it word by word on DC, and found it in the oddest places.

I said odd, but every place you found it the emotional meaning it had in the SS was intact.

I can hunt down the links for you Lynne, if you want, yet there are  more then enough interested people  right here on THIS forum to work it through again...who knows, perhaps with different insights.

[chelseagirl]

Hi,

my 2 cents:


I agree brokebackjack:  the film did stay true ss in this one very important scene.  This is Jack, all Jack.   The young beautiful face fill with love and contentment, and the older, worn, and weary Jack tire from fighting a battle that he seems could never win.  The dozy embrace is of promise, and the final confrontation was bitter reality.

Was it resignation of the way things are or a face that was ready to release the pain? 

[Phillip Dampier]

I agree brokebackjack:  the film did stay true ss in this one very important scene.  This is Jack, all Jack.   The young beautiful face fill with love and contentment, and the older, worn, and weary Jack tire from fighting a battle that he seems could never win.  The dozy embrace is of promise, and the final confrontation was bitter reality.

Was it resignation of the way things are or a face that was ready to release the pain? 

First, welcome Chelsea!  I'm very glad to see you join the community!

Second, what is amazing to me is that no matter how much Ennis drives Jack crazy, Jack is still there for him -- he ran to Ennis when he fell apart.  I don't imagine that he would give up on Ennis no matter what.  It looked like the face of exasperation, abandonment (again), and wondering what would ever get through to Ennis.  Unfortunately for everyone, it turned out to be Jack's death.  And the message that pounds away from all of this in my mind is ... don't let this happen to you in your own life.

[Front-Ranger]

I agree with all you've said. Here it is, in all its sad glory, the most magnificent film shot of the 21st century, so far (IMHO):

[loneleeb3]

FR, that picture brings me to tears every time.
You are so right, "the most magnificent film shot of the 21st century)
These lyrics to a song I love remind me of this scene And the winds that blow remind me, of what has been, and what can never be.

The scene is so damn heart wrenching. There we see the tenderness Ennis shows for is only love and as he is riding away the look of pur love, contentment and satisfaction on Jacks face. Then we switch and see reality.
What a hard transition. It's like being awakend from the most beautiful dream all warm and cozy by having Ice water trown in your face.
When Ennis wraps his arms around Jack and starts humming I melt every time.

PS I could look at that picture all day.....

[brokebackjack]

That's the problem with the DE: it was too overwhelmingly gorgeous. Which is why it's anathema to so many tasteless fundy Christians and republicans , they dislike the 'real'
<g>

[loneleeb3]

it was too overwhelmingly gorgeous
Truer words were never spoken. The fact that these two could capture that feeling of bliss of total tenderness is just amazing. It is one of the most beautiful things I have ever seen on film or n the real world. I could watch that scene for ever. I hate that  it ends like it does though.
The picture FR has posted of jack says it all. The coutnance on his face in that one picture can bring me to tears each time. It's just beautiful!

[chelseagirl]

First, welcome Chelsea!  I'm very glad to see you join the community!

Second, what is amazing to me is that no matter how much Ennis drives Jack crazy, Jack is still there for him -- he ran to Ennis when he fell apart.  I don't imagine that he would give up on Ennis no matter what.  It looked like the face of exasperation, abandonment (again), and wondering what would ever get through to Ennis.  Unfortunately for everyone, it turned out to be Jack's death.  And the message that pounds away from all of this in my mind is ... don't let this happen to you in your own life.

Thank you for your warm welcome Phillip:

What you said is so true, if this story is not a cautionary tale, then I don't know what is.  When you have love like this keep it, you may not have a chance like it again, and wind up living with the loss and the what ifs. 

[loneleeb3]

what is amazing to me is that no matter how much Ennis drives Jack crazy, Jack is still there for him -- he ran to Ennis when he fell apart.  I don't imagine that he would give up on Ennis no matter what.  It looked like the face of exasperation, abandonment (again), and wondering what would ever get through to Ennis.  Unfortunately for everyone, it turned out to be Jack's death.  And the message that pounds away from all of this in my mind is ... don't let this happen to you in your own life.

So true phillip. I am trying to learn from that message but it is so hard.
Lives get complicated and they are so hard to unravel.

[HerrKaiser]

tasteless fundy Christians and republicans ,

c'mon now. this perioidic stereotyping and bigotry is offensive to everyone. Please restrain from such forms of negativity and putting people down for what they feel and believe. thank you.

[brokebackjack]

no
sorry

I have a right to have a low opinion of both

[HerrKaiser]

i guess you do have the right to stereotype people and label them with demeaning and intimidating slurs.

But, then, you don't have the right to take issue with others who may make similarly disparaging remarks about groups you hold in esteem or favor.

Ever hear of the 'golden rule'? A little less hate and a bit more love might work better.

[brokebackjack]

I beg your pardon, but referring to what I wrote as hate is not acceptable.

If you wish to be indignant about demeaning and intimidating slurs perhaps you should be indignant at the continual demeaning and  intimidating slurs emanating from both groups.

Perhaps you should take umbrage at the disgust expressed by both groups towards the very Dozy Embrace this thread is dedicated to, as a sick perversion of The Natural Order and the Law of God [fundy christians] and Plain Sick[the current regime.]

For your delectation, check this out--a truly crazy right wing view of BBM...and brokies. Yeah. US.

Which God>> Sure ain't MINE, and they have no right to dump  the low rent deranged & classless version of God  promoted in that clip on me or anyone else. Even you. THAT, my friend is hate. I hope you watch it. You may better define your terms.

I find it quite curious that you should take umbrage when Bushites and radical fundamentalists are described as 'tasteless', but say nothing about their shrill  denunciations of gay and bi HUMANS. We are indeed HUMANS and what both preach does INDEED deny our humanity.

I repeat: these  hypocrites deny us our HUMANITY. I assume they're disgusted at you as well, [presuming you're gay or bi of course]  but apparently you accept it.
 
There is NO RULE which says one has to sit meekly while bullies mock, which we get from both groups on a daily basis.

Since you brought it up, NO, I do not care for intimidating slurs emanating from the groups on the other side, either. I won't take that crap from either side.


Thank you for your time.

[loneleeb3]

Ok!@ We're gonna have to call the Sherriff!
Can't we all just get along? I think both points are valid but next time lets have it out in a PM.
This was a beautiful thread (IMHO) and know it's a slug fest.
Sorry, just my two cents.

I just had to add this. I watched the you tube link you had.
Fred Phelps and his inbred followers are not even Christians. This is not how the mainstream Christians or even your more fundementalist Christians operate or believe.
This guy is a nut job and most of the parishoners in his so called Church are his own family members. Jesus said you will know my flock by their fruit (paraphrasing) meaning that you will know a true follower of Christ by how they act and what they do.If they behave as Jesus did and follow what he said then you know. I'm sure Jesus weeps over people like this even speaking his name.
Saying all Christians are like this is like saying all Gay men are like, I don't know, Ru Paul or some other drag queen. It's like saying all Muslims are terrorists, all black people are criminals etc etc.
The reason I didn't pm this is because I wanted people who do watch this to know what a whacko this guy is.
I am a Christian and this guy is most definitly not.
No hard feelins jack? I agree with a lot of what you said but this guy is no way a spokesman for Christianity.

[HerrKaiser]

If you wish to be indignant about demeaning and intimidating slurs perhaps you should be indignant at the continual demeaning and  intimidating slurs emanating from both groups.

Look, to me it is very simple...

Painting over half the nation of "republicans" and over 90% of the nation of "Christians" with the same, negative brush that you have done, jack, is by definition a bad use of stereotyping. It is a bigotry and it is 'hate' speach, as defined by those who actively assess the PC language we should use.

I'm sorry, just because a person is a member of a so-called minority group or claims some sort of victim status does NOT give that person the right to use vernacular or actions that he/she is fighting to eliminate from being used by others. If this concept is not clear and unquestionably agreed to, there is no hope. And, those who cannot live by such a basic undertanding will only help perpetuate the disunity of our culture and distrust of people who are different. Thanks for listening.

[brokebackjack]

This belongs in PM's

And exactly WHERE did i malign all Christians??

Exactly WHERE did I malign all Republicans?

This is in nothing so much as your own head; I dumped on fringe groups

[loneleeb3]

I dumped on fringe groups

Most of them deserve to be dumped on!

[Cameron]

It certainly is not my place to tell anyone what they should write and say. I do believe that this place is for everyone to express their thoughts and feelings.

But I have to be honest, I started this thread to write and talk about the incredible beauty and heartbreaking sadness of the Dozy Embrace.  There have been a lot of wonderful thoughts expressed here about that breathtaking scene.

But I did just have to say that it does make me rather sad to read what has been happening here.

I do believe that everyone has the right to express what they feel, so I decided to do so too.

[HerrKaiser]

I thought the cut away to the flashback was superbly executed; perhaps Lee could have used a fade to show time movement backward, but I think that would have been too literal. The thrill of realizing the flashback quickly, and the "I got it" rush was wonderful...and very, very foreshadowing. Had the flashback been less subtle, the clouds of ominous things to come would have been too obvious, imo.

Also, the dozy embrace itself, was, to me, sensationally uplifiting, joyous, moving, emotional, and truly male. The manner in which low-key Ennis dominates the embrace and hums to Jack is one of the most endearing 'love scenes' on film. I rate it up there with the end kiss between Audrey Hepburn and George Peppard in Breakfast at Tiffany's. The richness of their singular being is clear. pure wonder.

getting back to subject....does anyone else see the DE as wonderful joy as opposed to sad?

[brokebackjack]

'lets all love one another' yeah ok whatever

[Brokeback_Dev]

getting back to subject....does anyone else see the DE as wonderful joy as opposed to sad?

Yes, I see the DE as true love which is wonderful joy... its beautiful, but sad at the same time.   What brings tears to my eyes is Jack watches Ennis ride/drive away for the last time.  The DE is not only love between Ennis and Jack.  i know its the last time Jack and Ennis will ever be together.

[Front-Ranger]

'lets all love one another' yeah ok whatever

You can take the boy out of NY, but you can't take the NY out of the boy LOL!

[loneleeb3]

Yes, I see the DE as true love which is wonderful joy... its beautiful, but sad at the same time.   What brings tears to my eyes is Jack watches Ennis ride/drive away for the last time.  The DE is not only love between Ennis and Jack.  i know its the last time Jack and Ennis will ever be together.

Too bad they didn't know. I can't imagine what guilt Ennis must be going through.
It hurts to think about it.

[brokebackjack]

A long time ago I saw a DE video where nthey had synched it to--I'm serious--Blaudonau. Very Viennese, but very good as well.

[brokebackjack]

I never thought it sad. It is profoundly beautiful. What came afterwards, what we learned afterwards, THAT is sad.

But the DE is beautiful

[loneleeb3]

I never thought it sad. It is profoundly beautiful. What came afterwards, what we learned afterwards, THAT is sad.

But the DE is beautiful

Thats so true. I guess tha sadness is that that one brief shining moment of happiness. That one glimpse into what could be (or could have been when we see it) Didn't last.
Like I said before, in it's beauty it was warm and comforting, peaceful and serene then we see Enis driving away in his truck. It's like having ice cold water thrown on you when you are laying in your bed warm and safe having the best dream ever.
The embrace itself was was happy but the context we see it is painful!

[brokebackjack]

Well...The Great Goddess [ Annie Proulx ] did the unthinkable: she used the principles of classic Athenian tragedy and successfully, brilliantly translated them into an English language short story format.

In such a case, like Jack Twist, we take our moments of untrammeled happiness where we find them...and treasure them.

[loneleeb3]

In such a case, like Jack Twist, we take our moments of untrammeled happiness where we find them...and treasure them.

I think that is the quote of the day!

[loneleeb3]

I just heard "The Streets of Laredo" on BBM radio 1.
WOW! I have goose bumbs. Just imagining Ennis singing that to sleepy Jack.
It's hard to hold the tears back after that!