An interesting thread from the main IMDB board . . .

[RouxB]

David and FrontRanger-I actually think you are saying basically the same thing-Cassie is not the answer-never was. Ennis, as Ennis does, falls into "tradition" relationships-he does not seek them out. And I agree that Ennis had reached his breaking point-the old "if you can't fix it, you've got to stand it" and he said he couldn't stand it anymore. So, maybe it was time to fix it.

 

[Front-Ranger]

Yes you're right, Red. Thanks for finding the common thought. Agree, David w Roux's POV?

[starboardlight]

David and FrontRanger-I actually think you are saying basically the same thing-Cassie is not the answer-never was. Ennis, as Ennis does, falls into "tradition" relationships-he does not seek them out. And I agree that Ennis had reached his breaking point-the old "if you can't fix it, you've got to stand it" and he said he couldn't stand it anymore. So, maybe it was time to fix it.

 

I wonder too if Ennis makes the connection of Cassie with Jack's "short leash". I remember some time back, we talked about the camp fire conversation. "I'm put the block to a waitress in Riverton". I remember some were saying that Jack might have felt like hurt by that, and that's why he started to tell about Randall as his getting back at Ennis, but changing it to the rancher's wife to instead. Cassie may not have been any real threat to Jack, but it certainly still would hurt to think about Ennis being with someone else. So while Ennis himself doesn't see having a relationship with a man and relationship with a woman as being the same, I wonder if he realize that it was still being unfaithful and unfair to Jack.

[RouxB]

Yeah, Starbabie, I think that Jack was sensitive to any relationship Ennis would be in.  That whole conversation about Ennis not finding anyone to marry yet was indicative of Jack's resentment. Jack flies to Ennis when he finds out about the divorce thinking that all the obstacles to them being together were out of the way only to leave empty handed and heart broken. So, with Ennis never getting married again, or having any kind of real relationship, Jack just feels like WTF-there was no reason for us not to be together. I think Jack had a hard time really understanding why Ennis would not be with him.

[serious crayons]

Yeah, Starbabie, I think that Jack was sensitive to any relationship Ennis would be in.  That whole conversation about Ennis not finding anyone to marry yet was indicative of Jack's resentment. Jack flies to Ennis when he finds out about the divorce thinking that all the obstacles to them being together were out of the way only to leave empty handed and heart broken. So, with Ennis never getting married again, or having any kind of real relationship, Jack just feels like WTF-there was no reason for us not to be together. I think Jack had a hard time really understanding why Ennis would not be with him.

I'm with youx, Roux. That's a good point about Jack probably resenting Ennis' involvement with Cassie. Ennis didn't pick up on it because a) he himself doesn't take his relationship with Cassie very seriously and b) he clearly could care less if Jack is having a fling with a woman. But the earlier scenes showing Jack doing things later echoed by Alma, like beating the clothes, suggest (and I think there's a thread about this somewhere) that there's some tension between Jack/Ennis and Alma/Ennis. And maybe Jack thought that Ennis' feelings toward these women were a real obstacle to the two men getting together (when, in fact, it was just Ennis' reluctance). So I suppose it wouldn't be surprising if Jack felt some resentment toward Cassie. Little did he know how passive and blase Ennis was toward her himself!

Both Ennis and Jack fell into relationships with women only because the women involved -- Cassie and Lureen -- were so willing to make the first move. And the second, and the third. We don't know about Alma, but maybe it was the same way with her. It's hard to imagine Ennis going after her very aggressively, even in the pre-Jack days.

As for Ennis breaking up with Cassie, it's interesting that when they first get together he's drinking alone in a bar, and when they break up he's eating pie alone in a coffee shop. Like he realizes that is just going to be his fate -- being by himself between meetings with Jack. I too would like to think he has decided to fix things, though.

[bbm_stitchbuffyfan]

I remember a post on IMDB where someone mentioned "See you in the morning" have a possible symbolic meaning and I think that's very touching, elegant, and beautiful.

I am unsure what I believe happened between Ennis and Jack between their wrenching sobs and the time Ennis drove away. I imagined they cried into each others arms for quite a long time.

I like to think that Ennis ditching Cassie was a stepping stone towards starting a life with Jack, as a result of what Jack had said to him. But, by then, it was too late because Jack is dead. I think Jack would've gone on the November trip with Ennis and never really been able to leave him behind.

[twistedude]

I just wrote 3 paragraphs on this subject, and it blew away...

I think we have to remember that before the ugly confrontation that morning, Jack said "I did ONCE,"--he no longer has the hope of a life together with Ennis, only the longing and dissatisfaction.

I think Ennis ditched Cssie because he felt the relationshikp was unfasir to her and to himself, not because of anything he may have felt for Jack.

I think that it is only at the end, after Jack has died or been murdered, and his daughter has told him that she is about to get married, that Ennis realizes that he loves Jack--just as his daughter loves, and not in some sick, twisted way that he can't even put a name to. And if that flashback "see you in the morning," is to resonate with us, it is only then, not earlier.

It is Jack's death that brings about the reconciiation, not the death that interrupts it. That is the tragedy.

[mlewisusc]

I went back and looked for the thread but couldn't find it. Did you copy the entire thing of just the OP? I'd love to read the whole thing.

 

No, RouxB, unfortunately, only copied this post.  Foolish, now, in hindsight.

Just had some whiskey, folks (had a large Poker tournament at my house tonight) and I find myself wanting to respond to many of the posts above. 

I think I basically agree with Julie (and others) above - Ennis cut Cassie off because he knew he couldn't "be" for her - but he wasn't about to take up with Jack. 

And we're back to my basic fascination with the subtle and not-so-subtle differences between the Film and the Story in this way - the look on Jack's face as Ennis drives away (so beautifully and painfully contrasted with the look on his face in the flashback as Ennis rides away) seems so different to me than the "let be, let be" that Jack (apparently) thinks to himself after stirring the memory of the HUG and after "torquing things back."  I see this difference as fundamental until I contemplate the fact that Jack had said something to his folks about the "ranch neighbor" after he and Ennis parted that spring. . . so maybe the look on Jack's face is not so out of place (vis a vis the Story) after all? 

As to the notion that "see you in the morning" refers to the afterlife or some such, I believe the poster from IMDB (whom Ellemeno tells me is here!) implied as much in her post OR explicitly said such on another post on that IMDB thread from which I drew this post, if y'all can follow me here.  This leads me to another set of contemplations that just came up, so don't take this as "mark doctrine" but I don't find much in the Story in terms of fatefully weighted words, e.g., words a speaker says which carry far more import in light of the author/reader's knowledge of the speaking character's fate than would otherwise apply to the spoken words themselves.  There must be a literary term for what I'm describing here and I just can't come up with it (or perhaps never learned to recognize it by that name).  Basically, although there is a LOT of emotional import in the story placed on simple things the characters say (e.g., "sure seem in one piece to me," "Jack, I swear," etc.) I don't see much where the characters themselves are "oracles" of their future, except in the strictly emotional sense - as another example, Ennis saying "if you can't fix it, you got a stand it" and then "standing" it for 16 years.  By the motel scene in the Story, we know the relationship is doomed, but does anything either of them say really tell us HOW the doom will work out?  If we got strong hints, I would call that (I suppose) oracular statements - which in the context of the story mean more than they say.  I don't get that from many or really any other conversations in the Story.  Thus, as much as I LOVE the idea that the flashback dialog pointed out something about their being together in the "afterlife" or similar, I just don't think it fits the Story.

Is anyone down with this ramble?  As soon as possible I will watch the DVD again (or read the screenplay) and see if I catch any of the characters speaking "oracularly."

All this is not to say, BTW, that Ang Lee did not put a TREMENDOUS amount of foreshadowing and (clearly) symbolic events into the film. 

 

[serious crayons]

Mark, the poster you quote in your first post is Amanda. I'm the one who invited her here from imdb, so I will try to get word to her that her presence would be helpful in this thread!

Coincidentally, I ran into her last night on another thread where people were discussing the sense of rivalry between Jack and Alma that I alluded to in a post above. I can't remember if she's the one who discussed the significance of "see you in the morning," though.

On some of these issues we seem to be reaching some "did not, did so" impasses. For example, much as I love Ennis, I can't believe he breaks up with Cassie out of some chivalrous desire to spare Cassie from the relationship. Wouldn't he have done it in a nicer way, then? I think he just gets sick of pretending. Whether it signals a change in his intentions toward Jack, I am less sure.

Nor do I believe that Ennis doesn't realize he loves Jack until after Jack's dead and Alma Jr. is over for a visit. He might not put that name to it, but I think he realizes from the get-go that his feelings for Jack are very strong. And he recognizes the mixture -- admiration, respect, longing, physical attraction, etc. -- that, whatever he might call it, we know adds up to love. Yes, he's very conflicted about the relationship and in some ways ashamed of it, but the way his face lights up whenever he sees Jack, even in the post-divorce scene, does not read "he is feeling sick and twisted right now" to me. What he realizes by the time Alma visits (before she arrives, I think, but he is reminded of it by their conversation) is not that he loved Jack, but that he should have honored that love and made it his top priority rather than trying to deny and underplay it.

[Brown Eyes]

Oh my,
OK, so here I am!  (I'm amandazehnder back on imdb)  Sorry, I've had a busy weekend and haven't been on the boards much. I wasn't aware of this conversation until very recently.  What a fun thread.  I'm so flattered that people have found this topic so interesting. 

I had almost forgotten about the thread back on the old board.  It's simply called Timing of the Flashback   http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0388795/board/flat/39899175?d=40776639#40776639
and as of five minutes ago it hasn't been deleted by trolls, etc.

I think the idea that Ennis is breaking up with Cassie/ jilting and ignoring her is interesting to think about after the argument scene.  As people above have mentioned, maybe he really is worried about the possibility of Jack leaving him.  That "I did once" comment and pessimism (so unlike Jack) probably really scared him.  I'm guessing that as an orphan he's terrified of abandonment (even if he truly is a loner-type, it seems likely that he also has a somewhat contradictory fear of abandonment).  And, I certainly don't think Jack and Ennis broke up.  I think Jack is too self-aware to even really think of that.  That's how I interpret the "I wish I knew how to quit you" line.  He really knows this isn't possible.  The fact that it's Ennis who sends the postcard (the returned card) hoping that November will still work is sweetly indicative to me of how much he wants to make sure that things have been smoothed out with Jack. 

The subtle shift in the placement of the flashback scene in the film vs. book makes it seem so much more complicated in the film.  To create that timing gap and to leave us wondering how Jack and Ennis left things is just *brilliant* torture for the audience.  The famous ambiguity of the film shines here.  The filmmakers seem to heighten the romance of the flashback by Ennis's open affection and the clear visual sense that he's trying hard to look at Jack's face (at least in profile).  The detail about Ennis not wanting to look in Jack's face at this point breaks a lot of the moment's romance in the book's scenario (at least for me).

It disturbs me that the last line we hear Jack saying to Ennis as they have that intense hug is "damn you Ennis."  That just seems sadly negative (even though the hug is a reconciliation and a nice change of tone from the argument).  The scene would be too devastating without the hug.  The flashback just erases all the tension in it's wistful feeling, it's quiet tone and peaceful romance.  The "see you in the morning" really sounds like "see you on the other side" or "see you in the next life" once you know what's coming next in the film.  I can hardly stand to watch these two sequences lately.  As beautiful as the flashback is... I just can't get through it without crying.