An interesting thread from the main IMDB board . . .

[RouxB]

Latjoreme-If you're with me and I'm with youx (funny), then we must be one together! Ennis really didn't care much about Cassie-she pursued him and it was convenient. When he left Jack he was completely f'ed up, lonely and scared and no longer had the emotional energy to deal with her and her expectations. I don't think he was possessive of her or jealous of Carl the nice guy.

Also, I've never understood people thinking Ennis, and Jack, was unaware of his feelings. It's pretty clear to me, at least, that they both knew how they felt about the other and they both knew those feelings were mutual. I have never interpreted the shirt scene as Ennis "realizing" how much Jack loved him-though he might not have put the name to it, he knew what it was. I think it was more realizing the magnitude of his love-and loss.

 

[Brown Eyes]

What he realizes by the time Alma visits (before she arrives, I think, but he is reminded of it by their conversation) is not that he loved Jack, but that he should have honored that love and made it his top priority rather than trying to deny and underplay it.

Heya Latjoreme,

I forgot to mention before that I think this is an awesome observation.

And, yes, I think this fits nicely with your comment too RouxB.  I think the lovely thing about this romance is that their attraction/ love is mutual.  The issue of them falling/ being in love is not the real conflict in the movie.   The conflict is how they deal with their lives and all the drama that surrounds them because of that love (whether they name it or not).

cheers!

[serious crayons]

RouxB, youx and Ix ARE onex! I agree completely with everything you said. And Amanda -- thanks for joining the discussion! -- I agree with everything YOU said, too. (Including the part about the romance-killing line from the story; I'm so glad the movie doesn't play it that way.)

I SO wish the filmmakers had showed what happened between the argument hug and the truck driving away, but like Amanda I think this is another example of their exquisite torture. The "damn you Ennis" I don't mind so much, because I see it as just another way of Jack saying, "I wish I could quit you" -- he's frustrated, Ennis is driving hiim crazy, damn him, but he can't let Ennis go.

What bothers me more is Jack's "I did, ONCE" -- that past tense makes ME feel awful, so I'm sure it couldn't have been pleasant for Ennis to hear. I think, as both of you suggest, that the argument probably leaves Ennis feeling worried and scared. As for Cassie, he just doesn't care enough about her to keep up the charade when he's already distraught and depressed. He has been pretty confident of Jack's love all along, now he realizes it's at risk, is terrified of losing it, but is still paralyzed by his homophobic fears.

Not until the shirt scene does he realize that their love was so great it should have been allowed to outweigh all other concerns. (And Amanda, I also like how mutual their feelings are for each other! Though it seems to defy cinematic convention, which usually calls for uncertainty, in this case their being sure of their own and each other's love somehow makes their relationship more romantic.)

As for the flashback, the circumstances surrounding it are so unbearably sad that, sweet as it is, it is far from my favorite of their love scenes. The contrast between the hopeful promise of their relationship early on and the grim impasse they have reached is just too depressing.

[RouxB]

I put the "I wish I could quit you" in the same category as the "damn you Ennis"-frustration. Up until now I have been all about Ennis and the tragedy of him life but I feel that penulum swinging towards Jack. To be so close to what you want most in the world and yet so far. To have the love of the person you want most in the world and yet not be allowed to realize it by that person, oh!

[Brown Eyes]

I put the "I wish I could quit you" in the same category as the "damn you Ennis"-frustration. Up until now I have been all about Ennis and the tragedy of him life but I feel that penulum swinging towards Jack. To be so close to what you want most in the world and yet so far. To have the love of the person you want most in the world and yet not be allowed to realize it by that person, oh!

Oh absolutely.  This relationship is filled with unbearable catch-22's and what you mention is definitely one of them.  This follows along the lines of the prayer of thanks conversation that sends Jack two different signals and puts the relationship into a nearly impossible dilemma.  Ennis says wants the relationship to last as long as possible ("for as long as we can ride it") but insists on keeping Jack away at the same time.  Other people have mentioned the idea of the "covert contract" between Ennis and Jack, which in unspoken terms demands complete fidelity (thus the anger over Mexico) but the long distances/ lapses in time make this a difficult expectation.  I think their tragedies are about equal, though in different ways.  The rules Ennis imposes on the relationship are, in a very messed-up way,  just as hard on him I think.  As he says in the motel "I'm stuck with what I've got here."  His dilemma involves feeling trapped by his own sense of duty, convention, fear and even protection (I do think that he believes he's protecting both himself and Jack by insisting that they conduct their relationship in extreme secrecy).
 


Now that I have good old imdb threads on my mind, the "I did once..." issue reminds me of that great thread over there with that title.  I remember it was largely about the significance of the use of the past tense here.  Smart.  I hope it's been archived.

[mlewisusc]

What bothers me more is Jack's "I did, ONCE" -- that past tense makes ME feel awful, so I'm sure it couldn't have been pleasant for Ennis to hear. I think, as both of you suggest, that the argument probably leaves Ennis feeling worried and scared. As for Cassie, he just doesn't care enough about her to keep up the charade when he's already distraught and depressed. He has been pretty confident of Jack's love all along, now he realizes it's at risk, is terrified of losing it, but is still paralyzed by his homophobic fears.

Not until the shirt scene does he realize that their love was so great it should have been allowed to outweigh all other concerns. (And Amanda, I also like how mutual their feelings are for each other! Though it seems to defy cinematic convention, which usually calls for uncertainty, in this case their being sure of their own and each other's love somehow makes their relationship more romantic.)

As for the flashback, the circumstances surrounding it are so unbearably sad that, sweet as it is, it is far from my favorite of their love scenes. The contrast between the hopeful promise of their relationship early on and the grim impasse they have reached is just too depressing.

"Not until the shirt scene does he realize that their love was so great it should have been allowed to outweigh all other concerns."  Hrm.  Back on IMDB in the old days, I argued to myself (via threads) pretty convincingly that, without the interposition of Jack's death, Ennis NEVER would have agreed to Jack's "sweet life."  Really.  As Ms. Proulx says, Jack HAD to die - both for the sake of the Story, and in order for Ennis to know what he should have done.  Absent Jack's loss to him, he just would not have done it IMHO.  That's why, when you say "hopeful promise" above, I also don't think I agree.  There was little promise, Ennis being who he was.  Up on Brokeback, they had a "one-shot thing" going on.  From my perspective, better to say the contrast between the joy they experienced on Brokeback and the grim impasse they reach. 

I also agree about the lack of uncertainty in their feelings for one another (although I preferred the amount of verbal affection Story Ennis gives Jack in the Motel) however, I want to point out that it was jealousy on Ennis's part that sparked the threatening reaction to Jack's declaration of having been to Mexico.  Or was it?  As has been argued before, it might be Film Ennis being forced to face deeper into his own sexuality.

Lively discussion, Gang.  Keep it up!

[serious crayons]

That's why, when you say "hopeful promise" above, I also don't think I agree. ... From my perspective, better to say the contrast between the joy they experienced on Brokeback and the grim impasse they reach. 

I also agree about the lack of uncertainty in their feelings for one another (although I preferred the amount of verbal affection Story Ennis gives Jack in the Motel) however, I want to point out that it was jealousy on Ennis's part that sparked the threatening reaction to Jack's declaration of having been to Mexico.  Or was it?  As has been argued before, it might be Film Ennis being forced to face deeper into his own sexuality.

Lively discussion, Gang.  Keep it up!

I can agree with this, mlewisusc. By "hopeful promise" I guess I meant an upbeat, optimistic mood of the sort people have when they're falling in love. (Though as for actual hope, I bet Jack had it at that point.). But you're right, joy says it as well if not better.

Jealousy vs. homophobia regarding the Mexico revelation? I've been embroiled in an argument about that for two days over on the "why don't they switch jobs" thread.

[Brown Eyes]

Jealousy vs. homophobia regarding the Mexico revelation? I've been embroiled in an argument about that for two days over on the "why don't they switch jobs" thread.

Heya,
I've been reading that thread but haven't been able to bring myself to contribute there yet.  I think it's a very upsetting (but good!) topic.

I think Ennis's anger at the Mexico idea relates to both jealousy and his "internalized homophobia"  in this case I don't think it's an either/ or situation.

It seems particularly interesting to consider his comment about knowing "what they have in Mexico for boys like you..."  I think this was meant to be a little hurtful, but shows both the jealousy and the homophobia.  This comment implies that Ennis wants to think of himself as different from Jack.  Or that Jack is "really" gay while he himself is not. It's a sad thing that gay people occasionally do to one another.  I know a lesbian couple that's been together for 15 years and have adopted a child together (they own a house, etc., etc.) and one of them still refuses to use the word lesbian to refer to herself.  She calls lesbians her partner's "people".  I always think of that situation when Ennis speaks to Jack that way.  It also seems to be a similar type of thing when he says "it's because of you that I'm like this."  But, I think this comment has a silver lining in that it reveals how much Jack is the "love of his life."  The only one for Ennis.  I think Ennis really is worried about Jack being capable of "being" with other men.

[serious crayons]

Over time, I've moved a bit toward the homophobia interpretation of Ennis' threat, but I still view it as primarily a reaction of jealousy and anger. Also, "boys like you" suggests to me that Ennis has recognized on some level what kind of "boy" Jack is and, by extension, himself. Then again, as you point out, Amanda, "you" distinguishes them. I can't imagine Ennis ever saying "for boys like us."

Nor do I read "it's because of you I'm like this" as strictly "it's because of you I'm gay." It also means, "it's because of you I'm so confused and trapped and messed up." It is, in Ennis' backhanded way, a statement of love. i love you so much I'm stuck in this untenable position. (To me, the staging and camera work and music at this moment support this more romantic interpretation.)

Anyhow, that's how I see it. Obviously, not everybody does.

I've commented on this issue so often I feel like a broken record. After all this time debating, this seems to be one of those ambiguities about which people will always have starkly different opinions. I should probably just give up and stop posting about it. But I think we keep going over and over it because, as you say Amanda, it's very upsetting. I have a hard time even watching this scene. Yet I have this semi-conscious and totally irrational feeling that if we keep talking and talking, maybe we can somehow work out the problem and get Ennis and Jack back together.

[Front-Ranger]

You all are so articulate and persuasive that every time I read a post, I agree with that POV, and they can't all be right! Or maybe they can. I'm so mixed up now I don't know what's right or wrong. I feel like Jack, don't know if I am looking down at the earth or up in the sky, and I feel like I could drown in it! Now, um, to address the matter at hand...well I'll just try to focus on the "Damn you Ennis" comment and hope the world stops spinning around me (honest to God, I haven't had so much as a cup of coffee or a drop of whiskey this a.m., I think I am suffering from chat overload!) Cursing at each other was just code for "I love you" don't give it no thought...but I think the real reason Jack said that was because he had just made his mind up to move on, and then Ennis collapsed and they were back in each others' arms and he knew he could never leave him. I have more to say on this with your inspiration but this is all I can put words together about right now.