Your age and your favourite cowboy

[Shuggy]

Jeff Wrangler wrote

Ya know, this poll is kind of giving me the courage to mention something I've been privately wondering, that kind of relates to this poll.

I've been wondering what role, if any, age, gender, and orientation play in who we find "more attractive," Ennis or Jack. (I suppose a straight male wouldn't find either "attractive.")

I'll only use myself as an example of what I'm wondering about. I'm a middle-aged gay male--and Jack is my ideal fantasy young cowboy lover, no doubt about it. But, I honestly ask myself, if were 20--okay 25--years younger, would I be more attracted to strong, silent "daddy" Ennis? Quite possibly, I might be.

So let's see if we can devise a poll that asks this.

[serious crayons]

Good idea, Shuggy and Jeff! I've wondered about this, too. Obviously people are constantly making their preferences known in their posts, but I've had a hard time discerning a pattern. I hope more people respond to this poll; it's a little too soon at this point for the results to be very scientific.

BTW, I'm a woman and an Ennisophile. But, as I am several years older than Ennis is even at the end of the movie, I hardly think of him as the "daddy" type. Far from it!

[Jeff Wrangler]

Thanks for devising this poll, Shuggy! 

And, latjoreme, I'm glad to know I haven't been the only one wondering about this!

Maybe there really isn't a pattern, but it would be interesting to know that, too.

[serious crayons]

Regardless of what we learn about demographic patterns, I definitely think there's a correlation between which cowboy one favors and how one interprets the movie.

To put it in broadest terms, Ennisophiles tend to view Ennis more sympathetically, to see him as much as a victim of tragedy as a perpetrator, and to see Ennis as the story's protagonist. Jackophiles are more likely to see Jack as the tragic victim of Ennis' shilly-shallying, and to see the POVs as evenly divided.

These basic differences encompass lots of smaller disagreements. Jeff, you and I have debated the whole "did Ennis realize he was in love only after Jack's death" issue. This might be another question that distinguishes Jackophiles and Ennisophiles.

If only we could put all that into a poll! But I'm sure that people of either orientation (Ennis or Jack, I mean) will feel free to voice their opinions of my theory.

[Jeff Wrangler]

Regardless of what we learn about demographic patterns, I definitely think there's a correlation between which cowboy one favors and how one interprets the movie.

To put it in broadest terms, Ennisophiles tend to view Ennis more sympathetically, to see him as much as a victim of tragedy as a perpetrator, and to see Ennis as the story's protagonist. Jackophiles are more likely to see Jack as the tragic victim of Ennis' shilly-shallying, and to see the POVs as evenly divided.

These basic differences encompass lots of smaller disagreements. Jeff, you and I have debated the whole "did Ennis realize he was in love only after Jack's death" issue. This might be another question that distinguishes Jackophiles and Ennisophiles.

If only we could put all that into a poll! But I'm sure that people of either orientation (Ennis or Jack, I mean) will feel free to voice their opinions of my theory.

You could be on to something very interesting here, too.

I can only speak for myself in this, of course, and I'm not sure I fit the paradigm of your hypothesis (how's them for fifty-cent words!). For my own demographic and other reasons, I might be "in love" with Jack, but for other, life-experience reasons, I actually identify with Ennis! I don't see Jack as a victim, nor can I condemn Ennis--because as much as I may regret his refusing to try to build a life with Jack, I think I understand where he's coming from. In a nutshell I really have both sympathy and empathy for both of them--but perhaps that, in itself, is related to my age--it's not for me to call it "maturity." 

[ednbarby]

I have no preference between Jack and Ennis.  I adore them both equally and want to comfort them both endlessly.  And I'm a 41 year old woman.

Now, if the question were whether I prefer Jake or Heath, that'd be a whole 'nother answer entirely.

As to Jeff's question, though - I understand.  And yes, when I was in my 20s, I preferred more Ennis-like men.  Father figures.  Hell, I married one.  Now that I'm in my 40s, it's the Jack-like men around me to whom I find myself attracted.  I like to hope it isn't just a mid-life crisis and that my tastes have evolved to encompass optimists with a zest for life.  But I'm not sure...

[Jeff Wrangler]

I like to hope it isn't just a mid-life crisis.

Ya know, I could ask that question of myself, too. If I had a young cowboy lover like young Jack, there would be a not particularly pleasant term for him: trophy boy.

[serious crayons]

Well, I'm not sure where either of you is coming from, distinguishing two men who are in fact THE SAME AGE, both as characters and real-life people. Ennis, a father figure? Au contraire! Incidentally, Jeff, if I had a cowboy lover of Ennis' age, I'm sure there would be some unpleasant term for it, too. (Bring it on, though! I can handle a nasty word or two!)

But I have another idea for an interesting way to analyze this data. Those of us who prefer one cowboy over the other may consider it a combination of physical attraction and sympathy for the character. People who like Jack adore both his sweet, hopeful spirit AND his big blue eyes and sexy physique. People who like Ennis are attracted to his complexity and vulnerability, as well as to his drop-dead gorgeousness.

So what if we imagine a parallel universe in which Heath and Jake switched roles? I don't think many of us would want it that way. But for the sake of argument, let's imagine that they are both just as good in the opposite roles, and that the movie is just as good. So the question is, which cowboy would you prefer then? If you stick with the same one, you're probably drawn more to character. If you'd switch, it may be more physical.

For me, it would be very, very, very close. But I think ultimately I would switch preferences -- going for Heath as Jack rather than Jake as Ennis. Does that make me shallow?

[Jeff Wrangler]

In my little (leather/levi) subcultural corner of the gay world, a "daddy" is not necessarily a "father figure."

Trust me on this one, Ennis is a "daddy," and Jack is a "boy." It has to do with personality, deportment, and sex role, a combination of elements. Chronological age doesn't necessarily play a role in it, though it can. In this case, the fact that Heath and Jake are almost the same age, and Ennis and Jack are the same age, is irrelevant.

[serious crayons]

OK. I'll take your word for it. Though that still doesn't explain quite ednbarby characterizing them the same way.

[moremojo]

Howdy, folks--

Scott, letting ya know that I just voted. I am a male, thirty-nine years of age, and, even though I love both Jack and Ennis, I do have to admit I am more drawn to Ennis. Maybe it's that silent, stoic 'Marlboro Man' thing he's got goin' there; I also sense I would feel very safe and protected in his presence (and in his arms [if only...sigh]).

Scott

[ednbarby]

OK. I'll take your word for it. Though that still doesn't explain quite ednbarby characterizing them the same way.

Sure it does.  I dated a boy, fell painfully in love with him, he wasn't ready to settle down, or at least not with me.  Then I met Ed.  Mature beyond his years, or at least seemingly.  Quiet.  Stoic.  Biting wit when he did say something, but wasn't one I'd characterize as a talker.  Steady.  Puts everything in perspective.  Doesn't much like surprises.  Isn't one for emotional outbursts except for the very rare angry one, and then it's just a string of expletives and a beating upon the most readily available inanimate object.  The boy was 25 years old when I fell for him.  The daddy was 29.  I was 23.  Not much chronological age difference.  But eons of difference in temperament.  Whenever I hear the song, "You Can't Always Get What You Want (but when you try sometimes, you just might find you get what you need)" by the Rolling Stones, I smile.  Because a boy is what I wanted, but a daddy is what I needed.  And got.

[Jeff Wrangler]

Sure it does.  I dated a boy, fell painfully in love with him, he wasn't ready to settle down, or at least not with me.  Then I met Ed.  Mature beyond his years, or at least seemingly.  Quiet.  Stoic.  Biting wit when he did say something, but wasn't one I'd characterize as a talker.  Steady.  Puts everything in perspective.  Doesn't much like surprises.  Isn't one for emotional outbursts except for the very rare angry one, and then it's just a string of expletives and a beating upon the most readily available inanimate object.  The boy was 25 years old when I fell for him.  The daddy was 29.  I was 23.  Not much chronological age difference.  But eons of difference in temperament.  Whenever I hear the song, "You Can't Always Get What You Want (but when you try sometimes, you just might find you get what you need)" by the Rolling Stones, I smile.  Because a boy is what I wanted, but a daddy is what I needed.  And got.

Gee, and I thought a "daddy" was just a gay thing. ...

Seriously, Barb, what a sweet and lovely testimonial! Reading it just improved my mood on an ugly, stormy Monday morning! Thank you for sharing that with the rest of us!

[serious crayons]

That was a nice story, Barb, and I won't try to argue that you and Jeff can't characterize these cowboys however you want to, for whatever reasons make sense to you!

But I see Jack as the mature parental figure: patient, nurturing, steady, protective. And when I look at Ennis, I see an adorable, sad, poignant, vulnerable, confused, needy 19-to-39-year-old. Yes, he's stoic and Marlboroish, but those qualities seem offhand and natural in him rather than developed through experience. In fact, it's the conflict between his vulnerability and his stoicism that makes Ennis so appealing.

In high school, we used to talk about how in any couple one person or the other is always "the baby of the couple" -- the one who gets catered to and protected and indulged and sheltered and fussed over. To me, Ennis is the baby of the couple.

And I would love to have him as my baby! On the other hand, if he wanted to be the protector and beat up some slop-bucket-mouthed bikers on my behalf, that would be OK, too.

[ednbarby]

That was a nice story, Barb, and I won't try to argue that you and Jeff can't characterize these cowboys however you want to, for whatever reasons make sense to you!

But I see Jack as the mature parental figure: patient, nurturing, steady, protective. And when I look at Ennis, I see an adorable, sad, poignant, vulnerable, confused, needy 19-to-39-year-old. Yes, he's stoic and Marlboroish, but those qualities seem offhand and natural in him rather than developed through experience. In fact, it's the conflict between his vulnerability and his stoicism that makes Ennis so appealing.

In high school, we used to talk about how in any couple one person or the other is always "the baby of the couple" -- the one who gets catered to and protected and indulged and sheltered and fussed over. To me, Ennis is the baby of the couple.

And I would love to have him as my baby! On the other hand, if he wanted to be the protector and beat up some slop-bucket-mouthed bikers on my behalf, that would be OK, too.

That's a good point, latjoreme.  Jack really is the nurturing one and the one who caters to the other.  But I guess I was thinking of the question in terms of what "type" I was attracted to in my 20s versus my 40s.  If I were in my 20s now, I'm guessing I would find Ennis immediately the more appealing (well, depending on where in my 20s I was, I guess).  He would strike me as the seemingly hard-as-nails man who was vulnerable, too.  That's what appealed to me about my husband the most when I met him - he seemed outwardly strong but inwardly tender.  Whereas Jack is outwardly tender and inwardly strong, if that makes any sense.  Now that I've been with someone for so long who can be hard as nails to read sometimes, it'd be a treat to be with someone like Jack who lays it out there on his sleeve for you to see.  But again, I reckon that isn't what I need - too much like me, I think.  My Ed is the yang to my yin.  We wouldn't have lasted so long as we have if there weren't things in each other we don't already have in ourselves.

[twistedude]

How can you separate the two? I am over the age of both of them put together when they first meet, but since they were written together, I cannot imagine one without the other. If Ennis gives Jack a hard time--where would he be without that hard time? If Jack makes Ennis feel like he's nothin', nowhere--where would he be without his nothin', his nowhere'?

Jack is the prettier of the two--but a "trophy"--come on!; Ennis is the more solid. Jack is the more open, Ennis the repressed one. I just read a 9-hour fanfiction about the two of them together, and I think the author is right: thery would make a woinderful team, and bring out the best in eachother.

As for me, there was a thread on the CT board "Heath and Jake both looked at me"--and my feeling is that if either Heath or jake, or Jack on Ennis, had ever looked a me, they would look the other way...so it's silly to speculate about that.

[Jeff Wrangler]

I won't argue your right, either, Katherine. I will also note that right from the get-go, when he dips his bandanna in the hot water to clean Ennis's cut, that I've always been aware of Jack's nurturing behavior toward Ennis--and loved him for it!

I suppose perhaps the reason I have trouble thinking of Jack as a "mature parental figure" is because he's also a guy for whom "fuck-all" turns out the way he wants it in his life. He's not particularly good at cowboy things (though he does lasso Ennis  ), he's not successful at this rodeo career, and folks around Childress consider him a "pissant."

Not that I'm trying to make Ennis out to be any more successful in the things of this world, because clearly he isn't, but he's the one who points out that they have an obligation to sort out the mess of the mingled sheep flocks, when Jack just wants to "fuck Aguirre." While his primary motivation might be fear of society's reaction, Ennis is still willing to stick with his wife and children while Jack is willing to take the money from his father-in-law, leave his wife and child, and run to be with Ennis. What really saddens me about Ennis is that when the situation is taken out of his hands--Alma divorces him--he still won't ranch up with Jack.

I guess in the end it's just the way I was raised--laying greater importance on one's obligation to others than to one's self--that makes me see Ennis as the "more mature" of the two.

But then I guess we all react to these guys based on our own world views, don't we?

[serious crayons]

But then I guess we all react to these guys based on our own world views, don't we?

Yes, our world views as well as our views about things much closer to home!

[TJ]

I am 63 years old and I chose Jack Twist as my "favorite" (American/USA Spelling) because in spite of the fact that he was heterosexually married, he was willing to work and live in a long term relationship with Ennis Del Mar. (Wyoming cowboys might have said "favert cowboy" when talking.)

Jack got married for the wrong reason(s); because I think that one of them was in hopes that Lureen's father, the owner of the Childress, Texas, farm and equipment company, would have his company sponsor him in rodeos. Jack did complain to Ennis how nothing worked the way that he planned. In the book, other than talking "nicely" about Lureen in front of Alma Beers Del Mar in June 1967, Jack has nothing good to say about her in the rest of the book.

I get the impression from Annie Proulx's short story that Lureen introduced herself to Jack AFTER he won that belt buckle riding bulls at a rodeo in Childress, Texas. I have personally known guys who were exclusively homosexual in their sexual orientation and were in the closet (and I was one of them) who dated women AFTER they spoke to the guys first. I have met quite a few guys who should never been heterosexually maried in the first place. They sometimes mistook the fact that they loved a gal as a friend, aka liked her very much, and thought that was the same as being in love with the gal. But, they had no actual below the belt (physiological) sexual attraction directed toward them.

[Sheriff Roland]

I've voted - Ennis from a 53 year old male. I think I'm more of a Jack type wishing he were more Ennis like. Can't explain the whys and the wherefores of my feelings on the matter.

Thanks y'all for letting me be a fly on the wall to the interesting exchange on this thread.

[Shuggy]

Just to note that at this moment, with 31 votes, the trend is clear: Older men and younger women prefer Jack, younger men and older women prefer Ennis. Of course this is far too few votes to be scientific, even if it weren't self-selected. If you haven't voted, please do so.

[Penthesilea]

older women prefer Ennis

I'm an older woman  Didn't know this till today. Maybe it's time for me to take my midlife-crisis 
Just kidding.

I fit into the trend. I'm over 35 and prefer Ennis. But I think I would have preferred Ennis in my twenties, too. I have always been into the quiet and solid men. I'm together with one since we both were 17, going on 18.

[serious crayons]

I would have preferred Ennis in MY 20s, too. Though he would have been in his 30s -- a little old for me back then.

Heath, on the other hand, would have been about 5, so that wouldn't quite work, either.

[Jeff Wrangler]

Just to note that at this moment, with 31 votes, the trend is clear: Older men and younger women prefer Jack, younger men and older women prefer Ennis. Of course this is far too few votes to be scientific, even if it weren't self-selected. If you haven't voted, please do so.

I haven't been back to this thread for a while and just thought to check in to see how things were going. Of course this isn't in any way scientific, but Shuggy's summary more or less bears out my "hyphothesis." No, I'm not trying to claim that anything has been proved, just finding it fascinating that the people who have voted in this poll are as of now voting the way I had a suspicion things would go: Older men and younger women preferring Jack, older women and younger men preferring Ennis.

[ednbarby]

I am over the age of both of them put together when they first meet...

GAH!  You *had* to remind me!

As for pretty vs. solid...  I don't see Ennis as solid so much as pessimistic (or some might say realistic).  I think Jack is capable of being in it for the long haul with the person he really loves, so a lack of solidity isn't his problem.  There's a great deal to be said for eternal optimists.  Some call such people fools, but I think the optimists are the ones who change the world.  Without them, we'd all be shuffling around like Ennis, old before our time.  I know I'm getting out of the scope of this conversation a bit, but Jack has come to represent the very essence of hope to me in my recent viewings.  And as a line in one of my other favorite movies goes, when hope dies, we die.  Jack was what kept Ennis alive - what made his otherwise misesrable existence worth having.  And then some.

Given the choice to change, for better or worse, or to live forever in my cold comfort, I'd take the former.

Get busy livin', or get busy dying'.  Damn right.  

[serious crayons]

Just to note that at this moment, with 31 votes, the trend is clear: Older men and younger women prefer Jack, younger men and older women prefer Ennis.

Anybody have any theories as to why this would be?

For the record, I don't prefer Ennis because I think of him as more "solid" or "responsible" or anything like that. As a matter of fact, I think of him as much more confused and screwed up and complicated than Jack, which is part of what appeals to me (for some reason, those are qualities I tend to go for, much to my frequent regret). The other part is, I just think he's cuter.

[Jeff Wrangler]

Anybody have any theories as to why this would be?

Haven't a clue as far as the women's response. As a middle-aged gay man, I have the uncomfortable suspicion that gay men in my age cohort prefer the more "boyish" Jack for the same reason middle-aged straight men go after young women.

Trust me, it gives me no pride or pleasure to admit what I think I'm seeing in myself.

Oh, here's a late-breaking thought. No offense intended, but is there something "maternal" in the response of more mature women to Ennis? As we see him in the film, is he more conflicted, more in pain, than Jack? Is there something about that condition that "speaks" to a mature woman?

[serious crayons]

Oh, here's a late-breaking thought. No offense intended, but is there something "maternal" in the response of more mature women to Ennis? As we see him in the film, is he more conflicted, more in pain, than Jack? Is there something about that condition that "speaks" to a mature woman?

Maybe. I don't consider myself particularly maternal, even though I am in fact a mother. I think I just find depressive pessimists more complicated and interesting than cheery optimists. But I guess that's not an age-specific preference.

Don't underestimate the importance of appearance, though (I say, having perused the "heath heath heath" thread throughout the day). Is there anybody here who prefers Ennis to Jack, but Jake to Heath -- or vise versa?

[Jeff Wrangler]

Maybe. I don't consider myself particularly maternal, even though I am in fact a mother. I think I just find depressive pessimists more complicated and interesting than cheery optimists. But I guess that's not an age-specific preference.

Don't underestimate the importance of appearance, though (I say, having perused the "heath heath heath" thread throughout the day). Is there anybody here who prefers Ennis to Jack, but Jake to Heath -- or vise versa?

Maybe what I should have said was, Is there something about Ennis that brings out a nurturing impulse (as we might say it does in Jack), but I think you got my drift.

As for the role of appearances, all I can really say for myself is that I still prefer Jack, but I sure as heck wouldn't say no to Heath Ledger!

[Brown Eyes]

How is it that I just found this thread?  I guess I just rarely venture into the "polling place" forum.  Anyway, very interesting.

I'm sure my friends here have noticed that I tend to be a Jack fan.  This is certainly not to say that I dislike Ennis in any way.  In fact, I have infinite sympathy for Ennis and my heart breaks for him every time I watch the movie. 

I seem to be the only gay woman (not bisexual) on this board (at least as far as I gather so far).  So my interest in the characters has less to do with finding them attractive in conventional terms (although I'm perfectly capable of seeing them as adorable and romantic) and has much more to do with identifying with their predicaments.  Essentially, I identify with Ennis while I like Jack.  I infinitely admire Jack's boldness in what I see as his courage and lack of inhibitions in pursuing what he wants/ deserves.   I guess what I'm saying is that I'd be attracted to a woman who exhibited the personality of Jack.  But, I find Ennis fascinating.  I understand his stress and anxieties (and I do tend to be more of a cynic and a pessimist... so I'm attracted to optimists, I guess).  While I certainly don't think I'm burdened with the level of "internalized homophobia" that plagues Ennis, I absolutely understand the stress of being circumspect.  I'm very out to lots of friends and colleagues even. But, I'm certainly cautious and quite closeted around lots of people.  I wish I could be as brave as Jack and I hope I learn Ennis's lessons about the dangers of a closeted, half-lived life.

ps. I just turned 31 on April 20.  I don't know if my age is a factor in any of this.

[serious crayons]

Happy belated birthday, Amanda! And thanks for describing your response. I've always been interested to hear thoughts on this subject from gay women and straight men who connect with the movie.

Maybe what I should have said was, Is there something about Ennis that brings out a nurturing impulse (as we might say it does in Jack), but I think you got my drift.

As for the role of appearances, all I can really say for myself is that I still prefer Jack, but I sure as heck wouldn't say no to Heath Ledger!

No, it's not exactly a nurturing impulse. It's more like, I'm a natural pessiimist myself and, unlike Amanda, I'm also attracted to pessimism; optimism seems a bit simplistic to me. I know I SHOULD be attracted to optimists, they are much healthier. But apparently I've never found mental health very interesting.

However, back to appearance, I prefer Heath but I wouldn't make Jake wait until my divorce papers went through, either!

[Jeff Wrangler]

Optimism seems a bit simplistic.

At this risk of wandering OT, that comment reminded me of something I read somewhere a long time ago that purported that people who were a bit pessimistic, and perhaps a bit depressed, had "a more realistic" view of the world than optimists.

I doubt that's true in every case, but my late boyfriend was a good example. Poor kid, he thought he would be able to save enough money to go to the Olympics in Australia by throwing his loose change into an empty pickle jar!

[serious crayons]

people who were a bit pessimistic, and perhaps a bit depressed, had "a more realistic" view of the world than optimists.

I think this is true, unfortunately. Though I have certainly known people who are unrealisically pessimistic, too. In fact, I live with one.

[Brown Eyes]

Thanks Katherine.    Well, I can understand finding pessimism attractive too.  That comes out in the kind of humor I tend to like... which is usually very dry, sarcastic, etc.  I do find optimism refreshing (and I find that my opinions re: BBM keep coming out sounding very optimistic...  this movie seems to bring out some hidden optimism in my personality I guess).  The thing I don't find attractive at all... something I find very irritating in fact, is naivete.  And sometimes it seems naivete goes hand in hand with optimism, but I'm increasingly convinced that they're not quite the same thing.

One more word on my reaction to the film as a gay woman... well, I just tend to like any good movie concerning gay characters, romance, etc.  I'm more than happy to watch movies about two men in the same way I like to watch lesbian movies.  It's much easier for me to relate to the romance between two men than it is for me to relate to the portrayal of straight romance (I can find girl-boy stories moving, interesting, poignant, etc...  but there's a missing element of identification).

OK back on topic a bit-
The thing that I like about both Jack and Ennis is that both characters are complex.  While Jack is the optimist and outgoing one, he's certainly not one-dimensional and seems to be very, very thoughtful and self-aware.  Jack is the emotionally available "sweetheart" but is also often the strong one who finds himself having to comfort an emotionally distraught Ennis. Jack is tough enough to handle things like Aguirre's comments, while they would probably completely freak Ennis out.  Ennis is the stoic tough guy, but he's also the one that cries a lot and seems to have quite a sentimental side and to be incredibly sensitive (Heath has discussed trying to portray Ennis as sensitive not only emotionally but physically sensitive to things like light, etc.).

[serious crayons]

Thanks Katherine.    Well, I can understand finding pessimism attractive too.  That comes out in the kind of humor I tend to like... which is usually very dry, sarcastic, etc.  I do find optimism refreshing (and I find that my opinions re: BBM keep coming out sounding very optimistic...  this movie seems to bring out some hidden optimism in my personality I guess).  The thing I don't find attractive at all... something I find very irritating in fact, is naivete.  And sometimes it seems naivete goes hand in hand with optimism, but I'm increasingly convinced that they're not quite the same thing.

One more word on my reaction to the film as a gay woman... well, I just tend to like any good movie concerning gay characters, romance, etc.  I'm more than happy to watch movies about two men in the same way I like to watch lesbian movies.  It's much easier for me to relate to the romance between two men than it is for me to relate to the portrayal of straight romance (I can find girl-boy stories moving, interesting, poignant, etc...  but there's a missing element of identification).

OK back on topic a bit-
The thing that I like about both Jack and Ennis is that both characters are complex.  While Jack is the optimist and outgoing one, he's certainly not one-dimensional and seems to be very, very thoughtful and self-aware.  Jack is the emotionally available "sweetheart" but is also often the strong one who finds himself having to comfort an emotionally distraught Ennis. Jack is tough enough to handle things like Aguirre's comments, while they would probably completely freak Ennis out.  Ennis is the stoic tough guy, but he's also the one that cries a lot and seems to have quite a sentimental side and to be incredibly sensitive (Heath has discussed trying to portray Ennis as sensitive not only emotionally but physically sensitive to things like light, etc.).

So many interesting points to respond to!

Re optimism vs. naivete: you are right. There is a difference. There is a quality that some people have that, much as I might like them, when I sense it I immediately know I will not have much in common with them. Is it naivete? Blind idealism? It has something to do with resolutely refusing even to notice or recognize the dark side, out of some sense that it's "wrong" or "unhealthy." If people acknowlege the dark side and yet choose optimism, that's different. Does that make any sense? This is a hard one to articulate. I've been trying to pin it down for a while, myself.

Re the complexity of the characters: it actually goes back to what I said above. Jack acknowledges the dark side -- hell, he experiences it himself, first hand, frequently -- but chooses optimism. So, yes, he's complex. Though not quite as complex as Ennis, who is struggling to reconcile two absolutely contradictory impulses. And that contrast of stoicism/toughness vs. sensitivity/crying a lot -- I've always found that a really appealing characteristic in men, for some reason.

Re Heath saying Ennis is physically sensitive to light, etc. -- interesting! I hadn't heard that.

Re your appreciating gay movies in general: I can understand that. I tried like crazy to get a lesbian friend to engage in an email discussion of Brokeback -- just like I try like crazy to get ANYONE I know to discuss it, without much luck -- and she kept ignoring me and turning the discussion to other movies, "Good Night & Good Luck" or whatever. I chalked it up to her reacting to the movie like almost everyone else I know in "real life" reacts: OK, but not life-changing. Which I suppose did surprise me a bit more in her case than others. Maybe it shouldn't have, though. We're a very select group here, for whatever reasons.

Re optimism regarding this movie: I'm that way, too, as I've noted to you before. In my case, I think it's a desperate survival tactic; if I allowed myself to be pessimistic about it I would be too overwhelmed by sadness. So I grab at any straw I can: at any juncture, if there is more than one way to interpret something, I ALWAYS choose the more cheerful, optimistic way. Just for my own sanity.
 

[Brown Eyes]

OK, so I found the reference to Ennis and light.  It's interesting... it turns out that what I was remembering was an interview with Jake!

Here's the quotation-
"We talked a lot. Heath would say stuff to me like, ‘I really think this character is very sensitive to light and I think he’s very sensitive to sound. He doesn’t really like being around any place that’s too noisy.’ We would talk a lot about that. And then when it came to doing love scenes and stuff like that, the best metaphor I can give is that it felt like we were both like, ‘Are you ready? Yeah. Let’s go,’ and we dove off the boat into the deep end. It’s like when you’re terrified of the water, you see a little kid thrown in the water and they’re trying to get back to the boat as fast as they can. That’s what it was like. But at the same time when we were there we really went for it." and the interview was titled "Jake Gyllenhaal Talks About "Brokeback Mountain"
by Mary Rebecca Murray.  I don't know exactly where it came from because it's something I saved to my hard-drive without preserving the web link.  I think I found it on something like "about.com" but I could be wrong.

Anyway, thanks for your thoughtful replies to my post Katherine.  It's interesting to hear about your lesbian friend's disinterest in BBM.  I'm not really that surprised.  My best lesbian friend still hasn't seen it (and she's a very smart movie buff, etc.). Her reason is that she read the story long ago and didn't like it much. lol.  And, interestingly, my best gay boy friend (and he's truly my best friend) really likes BBM, but no where near as much as I do.  Well, there's no accounting for taste.
 

I feel a new thread topic coming on... "how to deal with friends who don't like and/or get BBM."  A friend of mine is coming over on Wednesday to watch my copy of BBM with me.  She's never seen it yet. And, for what it's worth, as far as I know she's straight.  So, anyway, I'm actually nervous about this whole situation.  She has no idea of my level of obsession (of the amount of time I've spent discussing the movie, that I'm registered to such a thing as "BetterMost," etc.) and now I'm worried about how I'll deal with this if she doesn't like it.  I'll try not to drive her crazy by overwhelming her with observations about buckets and coffeepots and the like.  I'll have to restrain myself especially when it comes to that darn topic of the wind.
 
Of all the millions of times I've seen BBM, I've only watched it with another person once.  My 4th theatre viewing was with a girl I was casually dating and it was her first viewing.  The fun thing was that a week or so later I was talking to her and she reported the problem of "not being able to get the film out of her head."  The first symptoms of Brokeback fever.   I was rather pleased.

OK, sorry for the crazy personal tangent.
Trying to return to topic...
I don't think that Ennis is more complex than Jack... they're just complex in different ways.  I do think Ennis is significantly more tortured... by himself primarily.  Jack's complexity, I think manifests itself, at least in part by how smart he is in dealing with Ennis (in understanding and reacting to Ennis's complexities was no easy accomplishment).  He knows just what to say, what to hold back, how to find the level of intimacy that Ennis needs, etc.  My favorite early example of Jack being smart at the level of flirting is his famous reaction to Ennis's little playful taunt "my Daddy thought all rodeo cowboys were f*** ups".  Instead of actually getting mad, or taking this personally, Jack realizes that this is an opportunity to make Ennis smile and loosen up.  So, he swallows the little insult and decides to do his little rodeo imitation.  I feel like, as silly as that example may be on the surface, it shows a lot about Jack's personality, self-control and determination.

[serious crayons]

But at the same time when we were there we really went for it." ... "Jake Gyllenhaal Talks About "Brokeback Mountain"

That's for sure! And thank god for that!

I feel a new thread topic coming on... "how to deal with friends who don't like and/or get BBM."  A friend of mine is coming over on Wednesday to watch my copy of BBM with me.  She's never seen it yet. And, for what it's worth, as far as I know she's straight.  So, anyway, I'm actually nervous about this whole situation.  She has no idea of my level of obsession (of the amount of time I've spent discussing the movie, that I'm registered to such a thing as "BetterMost," etc.) and now I'm worried about how I'll deal with this if she doesn't like it.  I'll try not to drive her crazy by overwhelming her with observations about buckets and coffeepots and the the like.  I'll have to restrain myself especially when it comes to that darn topic of the wind.

Tricky situation! Maybe you should give her some idea before you hit play, for both of your sakes. The chances of her being equally obsessed are pretty small. There are what, about 300 of us here, out of the 10 million or however many who've seen the movie ... I've wondered, too, how to even begin to describe the metaphors and nuances to the uninitiated. My approach is to start with the most obvious ones: the gutted sheep -- even on my first viewing, I realized that was a metaphor for something -- and pointing out how Lureen's line about husbands never dancing with their wives could have another meaning. Then I hope they get interested enough to take it from there.

I've more or less given up on trying to get my husband to watch it. If I kept after him, I'm sure he probably would, but now I'm thinking that unless he asks I'll probably keep it to myself. Probably not a healthy situation, but we're too out of balance about it by now. I'd prefer he not see it at all than see it and not love it.

OK, sorry for the crazy personal tangent.

Don't be! That's what we're here for.

Trying to return to topic...
I don't think that Ennis is more complex than Jack... they're just complex in different ways.  I do think Ennis is significantly more tortured... by himself primarily.  Jack's complexity, I think manifests itself, at least in part by how smart he is in dealing with Ennis (in understanding and reacting to Ennis's complexities was no easy accomplishment).  He knows just what to say, what to hold back, how to find the level of intimacy that Ennis needs, etc.  My favorite early example of Jack being smart at the level of flirting is his famous reaction to Ennis's little playful taunt "my Daddy thought all rodeo cowboys were f*** ups".  Instead of actually getting mad, or taking this personally, Jack realizes that this is an opportunity to make Ennis smile and loosen up.  So, he swallows the little insult and decides to do his little rodeo imitation.  I feel like, as silly as that example may be on the surface, it shows a lot about Jack's personality, self-control and determination.

Agreed with all of the above. Not to get too pop-psych, but Jack has a lot of emotional intelligence -- far more than Ennis. I don't mean to imply Jack isn't wise or sensitive (and he has a great sense of humor about teasing!). By complex, I suppose I mean something closer to "conflicted."

[Front-Ranger]

This is really interesting...there is a thread about friends and loved ones that don't get it. It's called Secrets and Lies. Great interview with Jake! Thanks for finding it.

[chefjudy]

  interesting poll - those of us over 35 are split pretty evenly between Jack and Ennis............

[kudzudaddy]

Great thread!

So many interesting responses...  Amanda -- love your perspective...  and so well-said, too.

I'm definitely an Ennis man and the "nurture" angle is definitely part of it.  Want to hug him and tell him it's all right just like Jack did...  and in the bedroom in lightning flats... I want to rip through the screen to comfort him.  To watch that edifice crumble is almost unbearable...  to know that underneath that craggy stoic outside is a scared 9-year old boy wishing daddy would just take him home....

But some hurts never heal --  some wrongs are never righted...  and life, like nature  just keeps rolling along.


This from a certified old fart  of the gay persuasion.

[Brown Eyes]

Hi kudzudaddy, welcome to bettermost.  Thanks for your nice words. 

I like to think of Ennis the way you described too... That his stoic, silent, tough-guy cowboy external image is reallly a mask for his soft side.  Or that the stoic, stiff silence of his demeanor are both the signs of a tough cowboy AND of someone sort of paralyzed by anxieties/ sadness/ fear, etc.  And, yes I'm glad he found a Jack-type who wanted to nurture him.

This thread is fun... it has drifted away from the topic of age though.  I wonder if there are generational differences in how people see these characters and their situations.  That seems like a complex question.

[kudzudaddy]

Complex, indeed, Amanda...

Trying to imagine how I would have reacted 30-40 years ago (had BBM appeared then).  I think my reaction would have been the same but for different reasons.  I think I would have perceived Jack as "easy"  "available" and maybe a little "needy."  I'd have been attracted to Ennis for the opposite reason I am now, because of his stern, independent "masculine" demeanor...   I doubt I'd have been able to see beneath it.

But today... hell, anybody under 45 is a "boy" to me...  and anything under 30 is a "puppy" -- cute, yes... scratch 'em behind the ears and send 'em out to play.

Kudz

[Shuggy]

Well with 48 votes, the only thing now clear is that more people who voted prefer Jack.

[serious crayons]

Well with 48 votes, the only thing now clear is that more people who voted prefer Jack.

No big surprise there. I've always felt that both this site and imdb are somewhat Jack-skewed. But what we Ennisophiles lack in numbers, we make up for in enthusiasm!

[ednbarby]

What I wanna know is who voted that they're "ageless"?

 

[Penthesilea]

But what we Ennisophiles lack in numbers, we make up for in enthusiasm!

   

[Brown Eyes]

Well, it's hard to have an either/or answer in the case of this movie.  Just because one may prefer Ennis or Jack for some reason doesnt' mean that you don't like the other at all.  I voted for Jack, but I certainly like Ennis too.  Ennis is so conflicted and complex that my heart aches for him.  But, I just flat out like Jack (I think he's refreshing and seems to always inhabit the status of 'underdog'... and I always cheer for underdogs).

It's interesting that in this poll, Jack does seem to be coming out ahead, but in the "I love everything..." threads Ennis has a lot more posts.  What do you suppose that means?

Anyway, I don't like to foster competitiveness in the Jack vs. Ennis scheme of things.  There two sides of the same coin as far as I'm concerned.

[Rayn]

You know, I find them both attractive for different reasons.  Jack is more attractive emotionally and mentally, but I llke Ennis too, his rugged good looks, hard body, full throttle character, his active sexual role.... "Must ta been all them horses you ride"... you know.  I'm more like Jack in that respect, so I guess I'd want Jack's sweet nature and personality with Ennis' body and drive in bed!  LOL

Rayn

PS: I'm 54 goin' on 35.... 

[serious crayons]

It's interesting that in this poll, Jack does seem to be coming out ahead, but in the "I love everything..." threads Ennis has a lot more posts.  What do you suppose that means?

Interesting observation, Amanda. Maybe people feel love for Ennis requires more study and explanation. Jack has no big faults, makes no big mistakes, is optimistic and upbeat and unneurotic and supportive and nice. In many ways, Ennis is harder to love (I say, though I voted for Ennis).

[Sheyne]

What I wanna know is who voted that they're "ageless"?

 

Amen, Barb.  These boys are gonna live forever..

[Brown Eyes]

Jack has no big faults, makes no big mistakes

I think Jack makes mistakes... I think he pushes way too fast to live together.  I get angry at him during the "prayer of thanks" scene because his cow and calf operation proposal fills that nice moment with tons of pressure.  I think he's right about the idea of living together and here he's being his normal "sweet" self in making the suggestion, but I do think it's a miscalculation to suggest it so soon.  Generally, I think Jack is very smart when it comes to dealing with Ennis (from early moments of flirting to the hug after the argument at the end), but he should have realized that they had *just* gotten back together and probably should have just enjoyed the moment.  I also think it was a mistake to drive all the way to Wyoming to meet Ennis during the horrible post-divorce scene.  His excitement and enthusiasm got the better of him here.  You'd think he would know Ennis probably wouldn't be so happy about the surpise visit and certainly wouldn't be happy to know that Jack has asked 10 people in Riverton about Ennis.  It only took the white truck to snap Jack back into the reality of Ennis's worries.  Still, these are a few pretty big miscalculations, but they speak to Jack's overall optimism.

Ennis has "fatal flaws" or "tragic flaws", as in the mechanisms at work on characters in Greek tragedies.  His worries, fears and anxieties are on an epic level.  Jack's flaws may be a bit less dramatic, but he does have them.  He may be optimistic to a fault (but isn't that cute too?).

 

[Rayn]

Yes, I agree atz75 ...

Both characters have flaws and faults. They are so wonderfully human.  Jack, poor Jack does want too much too soon, but only because circumstances and Ennis' fears make it so.

I see him as "The Ideal" that balances "The Real" in Ennis.  That is what makes good drama though, tension between characters, conflict, crisis and resolution. 

I do feel sad for both of them, but at least they tried to make the best of it.  They worked with each other and the times to keep a relationship going for many years.  That's not easy for anyone, but much more difficult for gay men. 

The hardest thing for me, because I am very much like Jack, is to see Ennis calling most of the shots because so much of how Ennis thinks and feels is based on his fears.  Reality is very hard on Ideals.  The two working against and with each other give us human life; give us "Brokeback Mountain".

Rayn

[serious crayons]

I think Jack makes mistakes.

Both characters have flaws and faults.

Well, sure! I didn't mean to characterize Jack as absolutely perfect. He does make some mistakes -- and the one you mention, Amanda, in the "prayer of thanks" scene is a good example I hadn't even thought of before. What I meant, and maybe telescoped too much for brevity's sake, is that he didn't make any BIG mistakes or have any BIG flaws, at least none on par with Ennis' epic-scale ones. Unlike Ennis, he can't be blamed for the movie's central tragedy. The main point being that Ennis is harder to defend.

[Rayn]

I don't see how Ennis can "be blamed for the movie's central tragedy", I mean what if he had taken up with Jack and they'd lived together?  Look at what happened to Earle and Rich!  And in their case, we know for sure what happened to Earle!   Had Ennis and Jack lived together, tragedy still could have happened to either of them. 

That's life, don't ya think?

Rayn

[serious crayons]

I don't see how Ennis can "be blamed for the movie's central tragedy", I mean what if he had taken up with Jack and they'd lived together?  Look at what happened to Earle and Rich!  And in their case, we know for sure what happened to Earle!   Had Ennis and Jack lived together, tragedy still could have happened to either of them. 

Rayn, are you saying you think Ennis made the right choice in rejecting Jack's idea?

Others may see it differently, but I consider the movie's central tragedy to be Ennis' decision to play by society's rules rather than spend his life with Jack, and his reaching a full appreciation of their relationship only after it was too late. Sure, living together could have been dangerous. But Jack ended up dead, anyway -- regardless of which way he died, Ennis' decision didn't keep Jack from harm.

So yeah, there were situations Jack could have handled better. In addition to the one Amanda mentioned, I would add his nonchallant demeanor when they were leaving the mountain. But those miscalculations are pretty small potatoes compared to Ennis making a choice that ultimately ruined both their lives (and wasn't great for their wives, either).

This is so ironic -- there are SO many posts criticizing Ennis for this or that and they ALWAYS make me feel bad for him and want to defend him. Ennis did what he believed was the right thing, gave Jack the most of himself that he felt he could, took what by his standards were big risks, struggled with homophobia but never let it keep him from showing love and affection toward Jack. I am a huge Ennis apologist. Yet here I am criticizing him and defending Jack, only because I do believe that ultimately Ennis' mistakes and faults were greater and more damaging.

Maybe the next poll should be, Who is more at fault for the movie's central tragedy, Ennis or Jack? Of course, the correct answer is C, "society."

[Brown Eyes]

Maybe the next poll should be, Who is more at fault for the movie's central tragedy, Ennis or Jack? Of course, the correct answer is C, "society."

Good one Katherine. 

In terms of whether they should have taken the risk to live together... absolutely.  Carpe diem as they say.  Living their lives to appease homophobes (or even imagined homophobes) is one of the key tragedies in the film.  So, as Katherine says, "society" was the main contributing factor in this part of their tragedy.  Even living apart did not save them anyway (if we say for the moment, for the sake of argument that Jack did die at the hands of murderous homophobes). The plan to live apart did not spare them (either Jack from his death, Ennis from his grief or both from their loneliness).  No one can control what might happen down the road (a person's lover could be killed in an accident, murdered, die from some sort of natural cause, etc.) this does not mean that the opportunity to be together while you can should be squandered.   Moreover, it is clear that all sorts of homophobic pressures would be on their situation if they did live together.  But, just because Earl was killed in a different place, in a different time, under differenct circumstances, does not mean that the same fate would necessarily have come for Ennis or Jack.  I think Ennis's encounter with Jack's Mom was meant to be a window into another aspect of wider society.  Not everyone is a hateful homophobe... Jack's Mom is welcoming and respectful of Ennis and what we believe she knows of their relationship.  It would certainly have been a difficult way to live and it would have required a lot of courage in many ways.  But, it seems like it probably would have been a lot more satisfying since they would have at least been together.  It also may have spared some of the surrounding characters some of their heartbreak.  I think Jack hates having to live the fake life with Lureen... He would have much prefered to get an honest divorce that would have allowed Lureen to find a more satisfying life for herself too.

[serious crayons]

Yup, I agree. In fact, living apart did not save them whether Jack was murdered OR died in an accident. Either way, Ennis probably realizes in the end that he can't control the weather or save Uncle Harold. He should have gone for it.

One of the many things I find interesting about the movie is that, of all the people who presumably knew about Ennis' and Jack's relationship, none did them any real harm. (Unless you count the hypothetical mechanics, and even then it wasn't their relationship at issue.) Alma never mentioned it throughout her marriage to Ennis, and was reasonably discrete when she finally did confront him. Aguirre was kind of mean, but didn't fire them. Jack's dad was obnoxious, but apparently would have been willing to let them run the ranch. The only harm came from Ennis' own reluctance.

The movie doesn't disregard the very real dangers -- there's the specter of Earl, and possibly of Jack's murderers, plus what we viewers know about in real life. But the suggestion is that the biggest threat to their happiness came from Ennis' own fears.

[Brown Eyes]

Yup Ennis probably realizes in the end that he can't control the weather or save Uncle Harold. He should have gone for it.

I quite like the way you put this Katherine. 

One of the many things I find interesting about the movie is that, of all the people who presumably knew about Ennis' and Jack's relationship, none did them any real harm. (Unless you count the hypothetical mechanics, and even then it wasn't their relationship at issue.) Alma never mentioned it throughout her marriage to Ennis, and was reasonably discrete when she finally did confront him. Aguirre was kind of mean, but didn't fire them. Jack's dad was obnoxious, but apparently would have been willing to let them run the ranch. The only harm came from Ennis' own reluctance.

I know!  I love this about the movie too... the things Ennis worried about came true.  Jack died (one way or another) and a really large number of people in their lives knew about them being gay.  Alma, Aguirre, Jack's Mom and Dad, Lureen, and probably Alma Jr. all knew by the end of the movie not only that Ennis was gay but they could all identify who his boyfriend was (even though he lived states away).  The one main character who didn't know was Cassie.  It's hard to know about Monroe or Jenny (it seems at least possible that they knew through family confidences either from Alma or Alma Jr, if she did have Daddy figured out).  And you're right, the worst thing that came of any of that was Aguirre did not re-hire Jack when he came back looking for work.  I still keep thinking that Ennis lost out on the opportunity to have a great mother-figure in his life by not living with Jack in Lightning Flat.  Not only would having Mrs. Twist know not be dangerous, it could have been a wonderful thing for Ennis the orphan.

By the way, the idea of Mr. Twist and Ennis trying to co-exist on one ranch really makes me laugh.  I can't even imagine.  It's a funny and fun idea though. 

[serious crayons]

By the way, the idea of Mr. Twist and Ennis trying to co-exist on one ranch really makes me laugh.  I can't even imagine.  It's a funny and fun idea though. 

It would be a whole different movie, but I would love to see it! BBM II? Please?!? OK, I guess not.

[Rayn]

Rayn, are you saying you think Ennis made the right choice in rejecting Jack's idea?

Others may see it differently, but I consider the movie's central tragedy to be Ennis' decision to play by society's rules rather than spend his life with Jack, and his reaching a full appreciation of their relationship only after it was too late.

     No, I'm not saying Ennis made the "right choice" in rejecting Jack's ideas.  I don't allow right or wrong (morality) or correct or incorrect or even skilled or unskilled to enter the picture where Ennis or Jack's choices are concerned.  I allow them to make their own choices and then live with them. 

     As I see it, it's not a question of right or wrong for either. Ennis made the choices he was able to make being the man he was and to do otherwise would have been to be someone else.  I find no fault in that.  That's just the way Ennis was and I accept him that way and so did Jack, mostly. 

     Also, Ennis did not reject Jack's ideas entirely, nor did Jack reject ideas Ennis had.  They compromised with each other so they could be together as often & as much as each of their situations would allow.  I don't think it was a black and white situation for either of them.  There is much room for nuance in the story and for the subtle shades of grey that often make human existence livable. 

     I look at Ennis's love for his daughters and for Alma too.  He didn't hate her.  He defended her even to Jack.  I think Ennis can be faulted for maybe trying to take on too much and please everyone, but that's not as large a weakness in his character as some of the others he struggled with.

     I also don't consider the central tragedy of the story to be Ennis' decision not to live with Jack.  I see it as Jack's death because it was possible, given more life and time together, that Ennis might have finally given into Jack.  But with Jack's death, all hope of that is snuffed out.  That to me is the tragedy.   Jack was only 39 years old... so was Ennis, or about that age.   There was so much room for development of their relationship in coming years, you see?   I can't imagine them ending their friendship, so I see a chance for development and improvement.

     So, yes, you're very right, latjoreme, I see the story in a very different way.  We can speculate about "how it might have been if" which is fun for discussion, but I try to see and accept the characters and story for what they were in reality and reality always lends itself to mystery, possibility and change.

Peace,
Rayn

PS: I love this forum and having people to exchange ideas with about BBM, thank you all for being here!

[serious crayons]

OK, Rayn! You're right, everyone sees it in his or her own way. To clarify, I don't mean to suggest that Ennis' decision was "wrong" in some larger moral sense of right and wrong -- only in the sense that it was wrong for him and Jack, however well-intentioned, because it led to unhappiness. To me, it's not a matter of "allowing them to make their own choices." I really don't have any say in it either way. But if I were able to scream at the screen and have them hear me and respond, I would have suggested taking a different course.

And yes, in my view also Jack's death and the subsequent snuffing out of hope is certainly a big element in that "central tragedy" concept. But I can't say that I was as optimistic as you sound in the time leading up to that terrible news -- seemed like things were going downhill for a while. Though I would also like to think they would have improved without the death.

And I totally agree with this:

I don't think it was a black and white situation for either of them.  There is much room for nuance in the story and for the subtle shades of grey that often make human existence livable.

[Rayn]

...if I were able to scream at the screen and have them hear me and respond, I would have suggested taking a different course.

I understand about the "wrong/right" now.  I wondered, but I agree now and I agree because if I were one of the two men, I'd be Jack, all the way.   He tried so hard and suffered, really, for his love, while Ennis called most of the shots on where to meet and how etc, because of his fears.

If I were a movie watcher and could scream at the screen and have them hear me, I'd be standing and screaming with you latjoreme!  We'd be screaming so loud for Ennis to live with Jack.   It just crushed me that he couldn't do it, you know?  But there it is;we can't fix it, huh?   

Poor Ennis, poor Jack.

Rayn

[serious crayons]

But there it is... we can't fix it... huh?   

Yeah, so I guess we gotta stand it. But I can't! That's probably why I'm here -- trying somehow to fix it.

[Brown Eyes]

About the issue of the "central tragedy" in the film...  Well, clearly everyone will see this differently, but to me it comes down to lost time. 

By not living together they lost vast amounts of time together and, clearly, once Jack was dead the time is lost permanently.  So, now Ennis's motto, "If you can't fix it, you have to stand it" becomes his "life sentence" so to speak.  The tragedy for me is that they didn't fix it while they could. And in the end  Ennis has to "stand" living without Jack for the rest of his life now that the chance of fixing it has passed him by. 

And, as I posted above, the idea that they went to such efforts to live apart to appease a homophobic society (or even the homophobic society in Ennis's head) is a big component of that central tragedy.  In an ideal world, honoring their love for one another should have taken priority over living fake lives to conform to societal pressures.  Conforming to those pressures compounded the tragedy because it then impacted the women in their lives.

[serious crayons]

The tragedy for me is that they didn't fix it while they could. And in the end  Ennis has to "stand" living without Jack for the rest of his life now that the chance of fixing it has passed him by. 

Well put  .

I think all of the things everybody has said here -- lost time, Jack's death, appeasing homophobes, missing chances, standing rather than fixing -- all are components of the movie's central tragedy. In using the term, I didn't mean to limit it or restrict it at all. The movie is tragic in a lot of different dimensions.

[Rayn]

I can't help but imagine Ennis goin' a while on his own then meeting someone similar to Jack and goin' for it the next time, especially since his daughters will be married soon, but it's just my optimistic, wishful imagination and love of the character that makes me want that.   I just can't bare the thought of Ennis being without someone.  He's really a great guy.

Rayn

[moremojo]

 I just can't bare the thought of Ennis being without someone.  He's really a great guy.

Rayn

I feel so similarly to you here. I love Ennis, and want to imagine him finding some measure of happiness in the remainder of his life. I am sure that Jack would wish the same for his beloved cowboy.

But though you, I, and Jack realize that Ennis is a great guy, I'm not sure that Ennis would see himself this way. I feel he probably is filled with self-reproach over his lost opportunity with Jack, and this, compounded for his undying love and loyalty to Jack, might impede his ability to reach out to someone else in a truly intimate way. One can always hope, though...

[Jeff Wrangler]

I feel so similarly to you here. I love Ennis, and want to imagine him finding some measure of happiness in the remainder of his life. I am sure that Jack would wish the same for his beloved cowboy.

But though you, I, and Jack realize that Ennis is a great guy, I'm not sure that Ennis would see himself this way. I feel he probably is filled with self-reproach over his lost opportunity with Jack, and this, compounded for his undying love and loyalty to Jack, might impede his ability to reach out to someone else in a truly intimate way. One can always hope, though...

Or not. Oh, not that we don't want him to have a fulfilling life. Of course, we do. But it's not that difficult or tragic to live with your memories. I've been doing it for going on seven years. As time passes, the bad memories fade and the happy memories come to predominate, and surely Ennis and Jack had some happy times together in nearly 20 years (Annie Proulx tells us that he doesn't always wake up with the pillow wet; sometimes it's the sheets  ). As the film ends we see Ennis beginning to open up more to his daughter, so presumably he will grow closer to Alma, Jr., if not to both daughters. Perhaps in time there will be grandchildren--maybe he will get a grandson in place of the son he never had. But it's perfectly possible to have a good life without someone to console yourself for the loss of the love of your life.

[serious crayons]

I bet Ennis does have a lot of wonderful memories -- too bad the film doesn't show us more of their good times, so we can share them -- and I would hope they would be some consolation.

But I'd say it would be harder for him to recover from losing the love of his life than it would be for most people. For one thing, he's no doubt full of guilt and what-ifs and self-blame. For another, he has no one with whom he can grieve, or even to whom he can mention his loss. He already felt like nothin and nowhere when Jack was still alive. He doesn't seem to have any other friends, or the ability to get close to anyone else, outside of his daughter(s?). He doesn't appear attracted to any other men or, if he is, he doesn't act on it, so dating's probably out. And he lives in a trailer out in the middle of nowhere.

 

[Brown Eyes]

moremojo, it seems very likely to me that Ennis's sense of loyalty to Jack would keep him from dating other guys.  I would hope he'd find a way to make a life for himself though.  I agree, that I don't think Jack would want to see Ennis living alone for the rest of his life (probably a long life since he's only 40-ish at the end of the movie).  It worries me tremendously to see Ennis close his closet door at the end of the movie.  He's learned sooo much and seems to have come to a totally new emotional plain (so to speak) by the end.  It seems a waste to keep it all bottled up and hidden still.  Again, I don't think Jack would want that for him.  Ennis's upbeat little comment "they can find themselves a new cowboy" gives me a glimmer of hope... maybe someday he'll translate that into "I can find myself a new cowboy."  I bet it would take some other guy making the first move again though.  He doesn't seem too resistent once a first move is made... even in the Cassie situation.  I'm sure he'd never find another love of his life, but that doesn't mean he couldn't move on with someone I hope.

[Jeff Wrangler]

It's so difficult to know what might have become of a real-life Ennis. He could be alive and well today aged only 63. Or, with a rough life, poor diet, probably little or no health care, and the smoking and the drinking, he could be with Jack long already. Poor guy. . . .

[Penthesilea]

He could be alive and well today aged only 63. Or, with a rough life, poor diet, probably little or no health care, and the smoking and the drinking, he could be with Jack long already

I've seen a man losing the one and only love of his life in his fourties - and never being able to bond to any other person again. Not to find friends, let alone love. Living a sad and lonley life, finding comfort only in the visits of his daughter and alcohol.
Poor diet, no health care (because he refused to it, he would have had the oppotunity), smoking and drinking slowly but surely killed him. He died of alcohol abuse at age 64. Alone in his little appartment. His body was found two days later.

Maybe it's because of this experience that I can't see Ennis finding anyone else. As much as I want to, I can't.

[Jeff Wrangler]

I've seen a man losing the one and only love of his life in his fourties - and never being able to bond to any other person again. Not to find friends, let alone love. Living a sad and lonley life, finding comfort only in the visits of his daughter and alcohol.
Poor diet, no health care (because he refused to it, he would have had the oppotunity), smoking and drinking slowly but surely killed him. He died of alcohol abuse at age 64. Alone in his little appartment. His body was found two days later.

Maybe it's because of this experience that I can't see Ennis finding anyone else. As much as I want to, I can't.

That's very sad, Penthesilea. Reminds me of a late close friend. In his case, the love of his life, the mainspring of his existence, wasn't a person but his job. He lost that when his employer was bought out. He received a nice buy-out package, and he was comfortable anyway from family inheritance, but nevertheless after he lost that job, he essentially stayed in his apartment and smoked and drank himself to death last year at age 52. Nothing any of us, his friends, tried to do to help him did any good because he didn't want to be helped.

I don't see Ennis finding anyone else, either, though I hope the small glimmer of change we see in him agreeing to attend Alma, Jr.,'s wedding indicates that he won't close himself off from the world entirely. At least, that's what I tried to imagine when I wrote my fanfiction, "Some Sweet Life."

[Penthesilea]

I don't see Ennis finding anyone else, either, though I hope the small glimmer of change we see in him agreeing to attend Alma, Jr.,'s wedding indicates that he won't close himself off from the world entirely. At least, that's what I tried to imagine when I wrote my fanfiction, "Some Sweet Life."

I read your story and I liked it very much. Yes, this is the way I see Ennis's life going on. And, to be honest, I cried through almost your whole story.
The best Ennis can hope for is seeing Jack again somewhere, somehow...
And this is also true for all of us in real life: somewhere, somehow, sometime......... maybe

[Jeff Wrangler]

I read your story and I liked it very much. Yes, this is the way I see Ennis's life going on. And, to be honest, I cried through almost your whole story.
The best Ennis can hope for is seeing Jack again somewhere, somehow...
And this is also true for all of us in real life: somewhere, somehow, sometime......... maybe

Oh, dear, I'm sorry my story made you cry--but thank you for letting me know you liked it.

Jeff

[ednbarby]

That one made me cry, too, Jeff.  But I've told you that already.

Pen, I've seen a woman live out her life in loneliness after losing the love of her life (to divorce in this case) like your friend.  She was my Mom.  And she died alone and an alcoholic in her little apartment when she was 60.

As horrifyingly sad as her demise was, the rest of her life after my Dad was gone from it was not always unbearable.  She sobered up for 12 years between when I was 13 and 25, and she and I had some truly wonderful times in those years.  She was the best friend I ever had.  We talked about so much and laughed so hard sometimes that I think we both felt like we could paw the white out of the moon, we'd had such a good time.  But she never so much as dated another man again, let alone fell in love with one.  She said no one could hold a candle to my father - that that was the way it always was and the way it always would be.

I like to think of Ennis finding a good measure of happiness with Alma, Jr., and then with her children, in that way.  My Mom *adored* my oldest brother's two little girls.  They were the lights of her life, and she babysat them all day when they were babies so my brother and his wife at the time could work.  She loved it - it gave her no end of joy.  But when he and his wife decided that she was going to quit working and stay home with them, and she told my Mom she didn't want her help anymore (they didn't get along - I think because she was jealous of how close she and and my brother and all of us were), she took to drinking again.  She died two years after that.

I like the way you see it, Jeff - not of Ennis dying in utter despair like she did, but having come to, if not being fully healed from his loss, accepting it and being able to glean some happiness from what's left of his life.  That was where my Mom was at when she was still caring for my nieces every day.  I'd have much rather known she died in the midst of that bit of happiness than two years later and that much more miserable.

[Jeff Wrangler]

Barb,

I'm so sorry to hear the circumstances of your mother's death, but I'm sure you must really treasure the memories of the fun times you had with her during the good years. I'm glad you have those times to remember.

Jeff

[ednbarby]

Barb,

I'm so sorry to hear the circumstances of your mother's death, but I'm sure you must really treasure the memories of the fun times you had with her during the good years. I'm glad you have those times to remember.

Thanks, sweetheart.  Didn't mean for it to be a downer post - really more a testament that someone who's faced a loss similar (granted, not nearly as tragic) to Ennis' can still get some measure of happiness from life without another love partner, as long as they have some form of love in their lives.

[Jeff Wrangler]

Thanks, sweetheart.  Didn't mean for it to be a downer post - really more a testament that someone who's faced a loss similar (granted, not nearly as tragic) to Ennis' can still get some measure of happiness from life without another love partner, as long as they have some form of love in their lives.

I, for one, certainly understood what you meant. That's been my own experience, more or less, in my own life since the death of my boyfriend, and--I'm not quite sure how to say this--but it was kind of gratifying--maybe comforting would be better--to hear that my own experience isn't unique, and therefore my fictional imaginings of what Ennis's life might have been like after Jack's death were within the realm of the possible--because this sort of experience does really happen to people.

I mean, I hope this doesn't sound weird, but, for example, reading about your mother and your brother's children made me think of what I had imagined about Ennis and Alma, Jr.,'s children--your mother in reality and Ennis in my fanfiction both took great joy in their grandchildren. So when I wrote that about Ennis, I wasn't just "making something up," I was tapping into something that really happens to people.

[ednbarby]

So when I wrote that about Ennis, I wasn't just "making something up," I was tapping into something that really happens to people.

Yes, it's clear in all your writings that you're doing just that. 

(Check your PMs, by the way.)

[Penthesilea]

Pen, I've seen a woman live out her life in loneliness after losing the love of her life (to divorce in this case) like your friend.  She was my Mom.  And she died alone and an alcoholic in her little apartment when she was 60.

Barb, the man I wrote about was my dad. Nearly the same strory. Except my dad never made it to be sober for more than a few weeks. And he lost his wife to divorce, too. She left him for his best friend. So he lost his love and his friend at one time. And yes, he adored my children, his grandchildren, too.
Wheh I read your post I felt like you were writing *my* story.

So when I wrote that about Ennis, I wasn't just "making something up," I was tapping into something that really happens to people.

Jeff, like Barb already said: it really happens.

[ednbarby]

I'm so sorry to hear that, Pen.  And especially sorry you didn't get to see him while he was sober for a while.  You know, I can remember the exact moment when my mother first lost control with her drinking.  I was five.  Before that night, she had always waited until I was asleep in bed before she started.  But that night - I know it was a Sunday because we were watching "Wild Kingdom," she broke out the Galiano at around 7:00 p.m. and was three sheets to the wind by the time I put myself to bed at 8:30.  My Dad put her in rehab once when I was about seven, but back then it was only a psychiatric ward of a local hospital.  And all they could do was get her sober - they couldn't provide her with the tools she needed to stay that way.  I remember her first full day back from the hospital like it was yesterday.  How shaky she was, and that terrified look in her eyes.  I knew without really thinking about it consciously that it was only a matter of time before she started up again.  When she went into rehab when I was 13, it was for six months at a Betty Ford-like place.  And whatever they did there, which she never would talk to me in any amount of detail about, kept her clean and sober for 12 years.

I like to think of Ennis never starting to drink - not like Jack did, anyway.  If he has to die of an illness, I see it as lung cancer like Jeff sees it.  Not at all pleasant, but fitting.  And I love the thought of him dying in his sleep up on Brokeback, having found some measure of happiness in his life without Jack but never really being free until he can be with him again.  Hell, I'm tearing up again just thinking about it.

[Penthesilea]

'm so sorry to hear that, Pen. 

Same goes to you, Barb.

And especially sorry you didn't get to see him while he was sober for a while.

No need to feel sorry for that, because I was much older than you when my parents split and the drinking became a problem. And as long as I lived together with him (I stayed with him, not with my mother, after the breakup), at least he tried to pull himself together.

You know, I can remember the exact moment when my mother first lost control with her drinking.  I was five.

This is really bad. Five is way too young to be exposed to such experiences.

  I remember her first full day back from the hospital like it was yesterday. How shaky she was, and that terrified look in her eyes.  I knew without really thinking about it consciously that it was only a matter of time before she started up again.

Yes, I remember this, too. The shakyness, the incoherence and the confusion (amentia?) of the later years.

I like to think of Ennis never starting to drink - not like Jack did, anyway.  If he has to die of an illness, I see it as lung cancer like Jeff sees it.  Not at all pleasant, but fitting.  And I love the thought of him dying in his sleep up on Brokeback, having found some measure of happiness in his life without Jack but never really being free until he can be with him again.  Hell, I'm tearing up again just thinking about it.

Yes, I'd prefer lung cancer for Ennis, too (does this sound weird? I'm afraid so. But you know how I mean it).
But Ennis wasn't reluctant to alcohol, too. Remember the bottles in the bar when he met Cassie? Or even early in the story, when he waited for Jack at the reunion? Guess both possibilities seem possible. In the end I think both, drinking and smoking, would take it's toll on Ennis's health.

[Ellemeno]

As for me, there was a thread on the CT board "Heath and Jake both looked at me"--and my feeling is that if either Heath or jake, or Jack on Ennis, had ever looked a me, they would look the other way...so it's silly to speculate about that.

Ah, Julie, that was me who said that, about the Aero pilgrimage.  And believe me, I'm pretty sure they didn't see me as hot.  But it did seem like they each saw me as human.  That part's nice.

[DecaturTxCowboy]

I think Jack would be a hell of drinking buddy.  Translation: He'll prolly take off yer boots before throwing ya into bed.

Ennis...he's gonna turn a tad moldy if he don't git outta the closet.




Here about the gay Keebler Elf?   He came out of the cabinet.

[Shuggy]

Just going back on-topic briefly, at 63 votes, all ages and sexes are more likely to prefer Jack, but older people are less unlikely to prefer Ennis.

[serious crayons]

It's interesting that there's so much more correlation between genders than there is between ages.

[David In Indy]

I'm over 35 (43 actually) and I love Ennis! Who couldn't love that baby face? Those big shiny eyes, and that cute mouth of his; the "cupid's bow" shaped upper lip and the slightly thicker lower lip. And the cute nose he has. And everytime I see  Ennis, I just feel like taking care of him. He needs someone to take care of him.

[JennyC]

I have been reading this thread for sometime, but don't think I actually voted.

I am under 35 and Ennis is my guy.

p.s.  I highly recommend read through the posts here, in additional to cast your own vote.

[serious crayons]

the only thing now clear is that more people who voted prefer Jack.

That's because Ennisophiles are taciturn, like him, and therefore less likely to vote.

[Brown Eyes]

I want to know who voted "ageless"?
 

[Midnight24]

Under 35 and prefer Jack!!! 

[OldeSoul]

Under 35 and prefer Jack!!! 

Ditto.
I would probably say, however, than I relate to Jack more.

[David In Indy]

Ditto.
I would probably say, however, than I relate to Jack more.

Well, I'm over 40 and prefer Ennis.

I'm not trying to be contrary... it's just true!

Who couldn't  love those sparkly eyes and that cute mouth? And that boyish innocence?

[Rayn]

Like David, I'm over 40 and prefer Ennis too, but I sure as hell wouldn't turn down a date with Jack either and to be between them both in or out of bed, well, I can't put in to words what that would do to me.  LOL   

[JT]

I'm a male under 35, and I love Jack most.  I like Ennis too, but mostly feel compassionate for him.  Jack would make me happier.

[nakymaton]

Bump.

I think people new to the movie might find this thread interesting and/or helpful...