Author Topic: One Man Men  (Read 44813 times)

Offline Br. Patrick

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One Man Men
« on: March 05, 2006, 11:22:51 am »
One of the most wierd aspects of Ennis (the whole character that I see in myself and also, of all people, in my late FATHER!) is that he seems to be only attracted to ONE man.  I can't quite believe that there could exist such a person.  If he was a 'top', wouldn't he have enjoyed checking out the tight rears of the Riverton locals?  (I hate to stereocast him as a 'top' now, but when I came out at 19 in 1973 the lines were pretty "straight" forward.)

But (or BUTT if you prefer), Annie writes, "You know, I was sittin up here all that time tryin to figure out if I was --?  I know I ain't. I mean here we both got wives and kids, right? I like doin it with women, yeah, but ..., ain't nothin like this.  I never had no thoughts a doin it with another guy except I sure wrang it out a hunderd times thinkin about you.

Are any of you like that?  Or am I way out there?  Thanks for reading this!
Lean on me, let our hearts beat in time,
Feel strength from the hands that have held you so long.
Who cares where we go on this rugged old road
In a world that may say that we're wrong.

...Cause I know - A love that will never grow old.

Gustavo Santaolalla & Bernie Taupin

Offline Impish

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2006, 12:23:53 pm »
I think Ennis is gay, and also that he is in love with Jack.  Both factors add up to his subjective experience that making love to Jack is better than any other sexual experience.  Because of his internalized homophobia, he just can't conceive of himself as being gay.

This is the crux of the differentce between the story and the film.  In the book, Ennis is much more open with himself about his physical and emotional love for Jack.    There's the quote you gave about his physical attraction, and there's another passage in which he tells Jack about getting sick by the side of the road, and realizing that he was sick because (paraphrasing) "I should never let you out of my sights."

In general, the Annie's story shows that Ennis is closed and reserved and shy around everyone but Jack.  When he's with Jack, he opens up, relaxes, and can even get quite chatty.

This is the question I'm dying to ask Lee, McMurtry, and Ossana:  why was this trait of Ennis not carried over to the movie's screenplay?
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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2006, 11:42:49 pm »
Speaking of the book, Ennis Del Mar was not walking when he and Jack Twist parted company after being up on Brokeback Mountain during the summer of 1963.

After they had been paid by Joe Aguirre in his Signal office in August '63, they went to the town of Dubois (pronounced dew-boys) to get something to eat.

Then, after the meal they drove off in their pickup trucks in opposite directions.

I don't know how far Ennis was going to be driving; but, he could have been driving back to Signal since he had told Jack that his brother lived in Signal and his sister was in Casper.

So, Ennis had to pull his truck over to the side of the road because he felt that someone was pulling his guts out and he thought he had to puke. Well, that was a super-empty feeling pulling on his gut because the man with whom he was in love drove off in the opposite directed and it took him a long time to figure that out.

It was not until Ennis switched with Jack and after he had spent the first night and day up with the sheep that Ennis actually started a conversation of on the mountain. His talking about shooting a coyote with big balls, started the "ball" rolling so to speak.

From the way that I read the story, Jack was the first person to make Ennis feel like he was really somebody. And, when Ennis went back up the mountain the next evening, Jack had become his best friend.

It was not until sometime later before they actually had sex. And, unlike the movie, they had deepened intimacy in Jack's bedroll before Jack took Ennis's LEFT hand and put it on his cock. [That scene in the movie with Jack lying on his left side and reaching with his RIGHT hand across Ennis to get Ennis's right hand was stupidly awkward. Understanding the nature of Ennis, he would not have allowed Jack to do that all of a sudden and probably would have slugged him.] And from the way that Annie Proulx wrote the story, Jack could have been naked in the bedroll. I know that one can stay warmer when camping out and having enough blankets to keep out the cold, it is better to sleep without clothes. Ennis does undo his belt and his jeans in the story and even pushes them down; but, Jack is already ready to accept Ennis immediately.

I have not been even lurking much in this forum since I am a moderator of another forum and owner of 3 Brokeback Mountain Yahoo Groups. And, I own 7 other Yahoo Groups, too.

I am also active in the annieproulx.com forum as well.

Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2006, 02:49:07 pm »
This clarifies several questions, most importantly why Jack drives off and leaves Ennis walking down the road. I would have offered anyone a ride, especially if they had just helped me get my truck started, and even if they did just give me a bruise on the cheekbone.
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Offline Phillip Dampier

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2006, 08:28:56 pm »
One of the most wierd aspects of Ennis (the whole character that I see in myself and also, of all people, in my late FATHER!) is that he seems to be only attracted to ONE man.  I can't quite believe that there could exist such a person.  If he was a 'top', wouldn't he have enjoyed checking out the tight rears of the Riverton locals?  (I hate to stereocast him as a 'top' now, but when I came out at 19 in 1973 the lines were pretty "straight" forward.)

I really suspect Ennis is more bisexual than Jack was, and it would not be surprising to see Ennis attracted to Jack in a more complex emotional<->physical way.  Without both components, it wouldn't have worked.  I think we can also assume that Ennis was satisfied with less than Jack was.  Also, in that Ennis is more repressed, unless someone came onto him, I am not sure if he would have ever sought anyone out.  In fact, it almost always seemed to be Jack's idea. 

In people I've encountered or gave advice to, there seems to definitely be a personality trait in some of them that requires the other guy to make the first move.  They "want it" but for whatever reason they will drop cookie crumbs and hints, but still make you be the one to suggest it.  I don't know why that is, but it has been something I've seen in several people.
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Offline Phillip Dampier

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2006, 08:32:36 pm »
I think Ennis is gay, and also that he is in love with Jack.  Both factors add up to his subjective experience that making love to Jack is better than any other sexual experience.  Because of his internalized homophobia, he just can't conceive of himself as being gay.

I lean more towards Ennis being bisexual and Jack being gay.  Jack definitely has more hormones than Ennis though.  But I am a big believer in the Kinsey scale on sexuality, so I don't usually believe in absolutes.  I'd put Jack maybe a 7-8 leaning towards gay and Ennis a 5-6. (1 being exclusively heterosexual in feelings/manner 10 being exclusively homosexual.) 

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In general, the Annie's story shows that Ennis is closed and reserved and shy around everyone but Jack.  When he's with Jack, he opens up, relaxes, and can even get quite chatty.

Well, chatty for Ennis.   :)  For a lot of us he'd still be Mr. Quiet.
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Offline Phillip Dampier

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2006, 08:36:18 pm »
[That scene in the movie with Jack lying on his left side and reaching with his RIGHT hand across Ennis to get Ennis's right hand was stupidly awkward. Understanding the nature of Ennis, he would not have allowed Jack to do that all of a sudden and probably would have slugged him.] And from the way that Annie Proulx wrote the story, Jack could have been naked in the bedroll. I know that one can stay warmer when camping out and having enough blankets to keep out the cold, it is better to sleep without clothes. Ennis does undo his belt and his jeans in the story and even pushes them down; but, Jack is already ready to accept Ennis immediately.

Yes, that first scene was not believable to me either.  I agree Ennis probably would have slugged him.  Has anyone ever had an experience similar to Jack & Ennis?  The second scene was far more realistic to me.
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Offline Impish

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #7 on: March 13, 2006, 10:19:41 am »

Yes, that first scene was not believable to me either.  I agree Ennis probably would have slugged him.  Has anyone ever had an experience similar to Jack & Ennis? 

Yes.

That scene was not only believable to me, but absolutely based in realism.

However, I never agreed with those on the imdb board when they claimed Lee was directing (or the screenplay transferred) the scene straight out of the book.  When viewing that scene, I see Jack half-asleep reaching over and pulling Ennis' arm around him to spoon.  I don't see Jack putting Ennis' hand on his "little Jack," as the book describes.

Then when Ennis explodes from under the blanket, Jack confronts him and is thinking "well, the cat's now out of the bag, so I'm gonna go for it."

He sensed that Ennis could deal better with the sex than he could with the intimcay of spooning.  The roughness of their first time came from Ennis, and it's the only way he could proceed.  The tenderness came the next time, after Ennis had 24 hours to assimilate what had happened.

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Offline Jack_ME

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2006, 12:39:36 am »
One of the most wierd aspects of Ennis (snip) is that he seems to be only attracted to ONE man. 

(snip) Annie writes, "You know, I was sittin up here all that time tryin to figure out if I was --?  I know I ain't. I mean here we both got wives and kids, right? I like doin it with women, yeah, but ..., ain't nothin like this.  I never had no thoughts a doin it with another guy except I sure wrang it out a hunderd times thinkin about you.


The subject of Ennis's (and Jack's too) sexual orientation is one I enjoy discussing and have on several threads on other boards.

First of all, I must state and remind, that to me, there are two separate works of art: The film which Ang Lee directed and the short story which Annie Proulx wrote. And due to that there are 4 main characters: Film Ennis and Film Jack, and Story Ennis and Story Jack.

The film is not a documentary of the story. So one can not analyze in depth and make interpretations and projections of character traits by mixing the two media. It's impossible and not honestly fair to either.

Film Ennis's innate sexual orientation is heterosexual to me. Film Ennis does have to deal with fear and homophobic indoctrination. But Film Ennis is NOT a repressed homosexual in denial about his orientation.

Film Jack's innate sexual orientation is also heterosexual, but I would classify him as BI-sexual. Film Jack's character is also NOT a repressed homosexual and not in denial.

The film is undoubtedly about a Homosexual Relationship and the difficulties and impossibilities of that being experessed in a natural unfettered way in that time and in that place.

But to me, there are many layers in this film which makes it so fascinating and which allows it to stand up to deep analysis and interpretation.

One of the main layers of the film is the quesiton of sexual orientation I feel. And I feel that question is brought up, because we are presented with two heterosexually oriented men, one with more openness to easily exploring other possiblilities. Because these two men met, and because of their respective past lives of loneliness, Ennis especially, but Jack too has suffered some due to that, these two bond while alone on the mountain that first Summer. And they grow in affection and eventually they grow in love. The physical aspect of their relationship, though initially possiblly a youth and hormone driven act, is reexpressed in the context of love and emotional bonding. And it is that intense bonding which carries through their lives.

I left the quote in above even though it is from the story, and I maintain the two must be analyzed independently to be truly valid, only because, some have used that to support their view that Ennis actually homosexual. But that statement he makes, is motivated by his own awe and confusion. Not confusion about his orientation, but confusion about how can it be possible for him, as a heterosexual man, to so love his friend Jack that he is sexually excited by him as well.

In the film we only ever see Ennis interested in Jack, homosexually. There are no other past, ongoing, or will there be future homosexual relationships in his life, NOT because he is repressed, but because he is not homosexually oriented. He loved the person of Jack, and that love wanted physical expression and they gave it physical expression. But it was always ABOUT the person of Jack for Ennis. We also do see Ennis happily married for a time, actively and passionately sexual with Alma at least 4 times (the two children and the two encounters we witness). Also we see and hear that he is in a sexual relationship with Cassie. But all this time he was in love with Jack the whole person, not jack the male body. While one can try to explain away Alma has a marraige during a time when Jack and Ennis were separated with no expectation of a resumption in their relationship, one can not easily explain away the presence of Cassie in his life. One can say that because he was so in love with Jack, he was not as interested in emotional involvement with Cassie and in the end she gave up on him.

For Jack, in the film there is also, Ennis for a homosexual encounter, and then we see Jack go to Mexico and pick up the hustler. While some have interpreted this scene to be INDICATIVE of Jack's behaviour, there is another equally valid interpretation. That is, Jack first goes there after being painfully rejected by Ennis, when Jack had thought Ennis had invited him after his divorce. Jack was hurting and he needed som conforting, and he went to a place, and chose a man whose build was like his Ennis, not for a physical sexual encounter, but for the physical intimacy he wanted from Ennis. The touching and holding and closeness. While no doubt actual sex was involved, I feel that the motive for Jack's trip was emotional hurt.

Later we see Randall seemingly making insinuating suggestions to Jack and seemingly Jack is picking up on that. Later still we learn from Jack's father that in fact there was some other man in Jack's life. Some assume it is this Randall. But earlier in that scene we see Jack expressing interest in LaShawn by asking her to dance. While some may dismiss that as incidental, to me it is indicative of Jack's interest in females. When Jack later tells Ennis he is having an affair with a rancher's wife, and is likely to get shot by Lureen or the rancher, I take him literrally. Others have said he was lying there about the gender of the person to protect/decieve Ennis, but they base that on a preconceived idea that Jack is gay, and on the subsequent remark of Jack's which starts with "Truth is...." but that seems quite a natural thought progression to me. First Jack asks Ennis about getting remarried, and Ennis tells of "putting the blocks to...", then Ennis asks Jack about Lureen. While Jack indicates that they don't have much emotional sharing, his initial reaction is one of "sure normal", not anything along the lines of "never touch her", then he speaks of his affair with the rancher's wife......they have a laugh. Then there is a reflective pause....and since they have been on the subject of relationships, it is natural that Jack's mind would turn toward the lack he feels at never having enough time with Ennis, and so he says that...starting out with "Truth is.....sometimes it gets....."

As to Jack's BI sexuality, we see him readily and enthusiastically engaging with Lureen in the back seat. And then later we see him dancing with LaShawn and then later we have his word that he is having an affair with a rancher's wife.  And we do see him go to Mexico, be with Ennis and we learn that there was another man in his life. So Jack has freely chosen involvements with both genders. Not once but a couple of times. To me that makes his orientation BI sexual.

As I said above, the topic is of interest to me, because I feel to lable these two as repressed homosexuals is to short change a whole layer of the film which is saying that Love IS a force of nature, and true intense love for another PERSON, can override even one's sexual orientation. I believe that can happen, and I have heard on the various boards from others who have had a similar experience to Ennis and Jack.

Certainly not all married homosexuals are really heterosexauls. Many are in denial, and many are repressed, but there are surely some males who are not homosexual but who have had a homosexual love, or at one time a relationship of some degree, never to be repeated. To automatically class this as repressed homosexuality is unfair and not true. It is possible for humans to have love for another regardless of gender or inherent sexual orientation. And it is possible for two people of the same gender to engage physically, without that necessarily implying that either one must be homosexual, or repressed.

We humans, here in the United States especially, want to force everyone under one label or another. While Philip has referenced the Kinsey scale, and it makes it easier to discuss the points of view I've tried to make in this post, it too is a means of labeling. It wants to force everyone to have some degree of orientation and maybe that is actually true, but maybe there are 1s or 10s who in every relationship in their lives act as 1s and 10s, but who may have once in their lives been involved with the opposite end of that scale. That doesn't require them to be reevaluated and reclassified. It simple means that to be human is to have sexuality and to be human is also NOT to have sexuality limited to physical impulse such as animals have for the purposes of procreation. Humans are sexual beings, and humans are emotional beings. Humans need bonding, and humans need love. There are those times when two humans bond and love and that leads to physical desire and sexual expression regardless of the genders of the two humans who  love each other.

As I said ,there are long threads on this topic on other boards, and I myself initiated one on ennisjack.com called Sexual Orientation. It can be found under the parent board called Mountain Cafe.

My user name is the same there as it is here and on most all other forums.

I welcome discussion and I enjoy debate. But please, do not try to argue the points I've made about the film characters, by quoting the story or the story characters. This film was not a Biography of actual people. The film was BASED on the story, and the film is Ang Lee's interpretation of Proulx's story. And as Annie Proulx herself says....a story is not finished until the reader finishes it by bringing his/her own interpretaions and life experiences to it. So surely Ang Lee is entitled to do that too. And he did.

Jack in Maine


Offline Aussie Chris

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2006, 09:33:54 am »
Hi Jack, goodness you REALLY like thinking about this don't you?  All power to you, as long as you're having fun. :)

You know, one of the best things about BBM is that everyone can view it and come away with their own interpretation, and they're all correct.  If you see two straight men, then that's what they are (please note that I'm agreeing with you from a certain point of view).  However, on reflection I see two gay men that have so convinced themselves that they are straight that they actually believe it.  I think you could just as easily take all of the points in your post, turn them on their head saying that they're really gay, and in denial, and all of the scenes still work!  So in my opinion, there is little point in trying to convince anyone of a particular point of view, because I don't think there's a single right answer.

Ok, past all the formalities now so I can talk about what I saw in these characters (again just for fun).  As I said I think both of them were gay, but because of their own prejudices they could not accept it and therefore tried to pursue a straight life, more or less successfully.  I also think an interesting question to consider is, would they have had any type of gay relationship if they hadn't met on BBM?  This is probably where your perspective has the most credibility, since if Jack and Ennis had never met they probably wouldn't have had a gay relationship at all with anyone else, and therefore they're straight.  This is especially true of Ennis who probably would never have gone down this path, who knows about Jack though.  But I have a lot of trouble accepting all this because meet they did, and more importantly they fell in love.  In my mind, it is the fact that they were in love and slept together far outweighs the fact that they were also married and had children.

The thing that most makes me see Ennis as gay is the fact that he becomes less and less capable of maintaining his straight life as the film progresses.  After they first leave the mountain we know that Ennis loves Jack, although we don't fully understand this until the flashback.  They part company and Ennis doesn't think that they'll see each other again.  He fulfils his conjugal duties, although we see that his desires are not entirely "missionary" in nature.  But after the reunion and the affair begins, Ennis' physical relationship with Alma deteriorates to the point that he would rather leave her alone if she didn't want more kids.  In my opinion, Ennis is gay and the film is about his journey to that realisation.

As for Jack, well some people say his bisexual, some say gay, Jake Gyllenhaal himself said that he thought Jack was straight but "in love" with Ennis.  Bisexual?  Do we think this because he has sex with both men and women?  Whoop-de-do I say!  How many times have we heard about married men finally coming to terms with their sexuality later in life, coming out and "becoming" fully gay.  The only time that I think bisexual is a relevant title is when an individual chooses to have both male and female lovers as a conscious and informed choice, interchanging the genders also by choice.  In Jack's case, it was far less about choice as necessity.  Now I know he didn't have to have sex with Lureen in the car, or get married, but then again neither did Ennis.  I just think that Jack needed to fulfil what he thought he was supposed to in the same way that Ennis did.  Again, this happened in the intervening 4 years before the reunion and the affair really begins.  I agree that Jack only went to Mexico as a result of the rejection from Ennis, but I disagree that this was just about having intimacy with someone that was like Ennis.  The more important point is that he would have moved in with Ennis in a flash if he had the chance.  To me, Jack was gay but was locked into his situation simply because of Ennis' reluctance to commit.

In my mind, two men who are in love means that they're gay.  It's like that saying: if it quacks has feathers and swims in a pond, it's probably a duck.
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