Author Topic: One Man Men  (Read 44944 times)

Offline Br. Patrick

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One Man Men
« on: March 05, 2006, 11:22:51 am »
One of the most wierd aspects of Ennis (the whole character that I see in myself and also, of all people, in my late FATHER!) is that he seems to be only attracted to ONE man.  I can't quite believe that there could exist such a person.  If he was a 'top', wouldn't he have enjoyed checking out the tight rears of the Riverton locals?  (I hate to stereocast him as a 'top' now, but when I came out at 19 in 1973 the lines were pretty "straight" forward.)

But (or BUTT if you prefer), Annie writes, "You know, I was sittin up here all that time tryin to figure out if I was --?  I know I ain't. I mean here we both got wives and kids, right? I like doin it with women, yeah, but ..., ain't nothin like this.  I never had no thoughts a doin it with another guy except I sure wrang it out a hunderd times thinkin about you.

Are any of you like that?  Or am I way out there?  Thanks for reading this!
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Feel strength from the hands that have held you so long.
Who cares where we go on this rugged old road
In a world that may say that we're wrong.

...Cause I know - A love that will never grow old.

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Offline Impish

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2006, 12:23:53 pm »
I think Ennis is gay, and also that he is in love with Jack.  Both factors add up to his subjective experience that making love to Jack is better than any other sexual experience.  Because of his internalized homophobia, he just can't conceive of himself as being gay.

This is the crux of the differentce between the story and the film.  In the book, Ennis is much more open with himself about his physical and emotional love for Jack.    There's the quote you gave about his physical attraction, and there's another passage in which he tells Jack about getting sick by the side of the road, and realizing that he was sick because (paraphrasing) "I should never let you out of my sights."

In general, the Annie's story shows that Ennis is closed and reserved and shy around everyone but Jack.  When he's with Jack, he opens up, relaxes, and can even get quite chatty.

This is the question I'm dying to ask Lee, McMurtry, and Ossana:  why was this trait of Ennis not carried over to the movie's screenplay?
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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2006, 11:42:49 pm »
Speaking of the book, Ennis Del Mar was not walking when he and Jack Twist parted company after being up on Brokeback Mountain during the summer of 1963.

After they had been paid by Joe Aguirre in his Signal office in August '63, they went to the town of Dubois (pronounced dew-boys) to get something to eat.

Then, after the meal they drove off in their pickup trucks in opposite directions.

I don't know how far Ennis was going to be driving; but, he could have been driving back to Signal since he had told Jack that his brother lived in Signal and his sister was in Casper.

So, Ennis had to pull his truck over to the side of the road because he felt that someone was pulling his guts out and he thought he had to puke. Well, that was a super-empty feeling pulling on his gut because the man with whom he was in love drove off in the opposite directed and it took him a long time to figure that out.

It was not until Ennis switched with Jack and after he had spent the first night and day up with the sheep that Ennis actually started a conversation of on the mountain. His talking about shooting a coyote with big balls, started the "ball" rolling so to speak.

From the way that I read the story, Jack was the first person to make Ennis feel like he was really somebody. And, when Ennis went back up the mountain the next evening, Jack had become his best friend.

It was not until sometime later before they actually had sex. And, unlike the movie, they had deepened intimacy in Jack's bedroll before Jack took Ennis's LEFT hand and put it on his cock. [That scene in the movie with Jack lying on his left side and reaching with his RIGHT hand across Ennis to get Ennis's right hand was stupidly awkward. Understanding the nature of Ennis, he would not have allowed Jack to do that all of a sudden and probably would have slugged him.] And from the way that Annie Proulx wrote the story, Jack could have been naked in the bedroll. I know that one can stay warmer when camping out and having enough blankets to keep out the cold, it is better to sleep without clothes. Ennis does undo his belt and his jeans in the story and even pushes them down; but, Jack is already ready to accept Ennis immediately.

I have not been even lurking much in this forum since I am a moderator of another forum and owner of 3 Brokeback Mountain Yahoo Groups. And, I own 7 other Yahoo Groups, too.

I am also active in the annieproulx.com forum as well.

Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2006, 02:49:07 pm »
This clarifies several questions, most importantly why Jack drives off and leaves Ennis walking down the road. I would have offered anyone a ride, especially if they had just helped me get my truck started, and even if they did just give me a bruise on the cheekbone.
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Offline Phillip Dampier

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2006, 08:28:56 pm »
One of the most wierd aspects of Ennis (the whole character that I see in myself and also, of all people, in my late FATHER!) is that he seems to be only attracted to ONE man.  I can't quite believe that there could exist such a person.  If he was a 'top', wouldn't he have enjoyed checking out the tight rears of the Riverton locals?  (I hate to stereocast him as a 'top' now, but when I came out at 19 in 1973 the lines were pretty "straight" forward.)

I really suspect Ennis is more bisexual than Jack was, and it would not be surprising to see Ennis attracted to Jack in a more complex emotional<->physical way.  Without both components, it wouldn't have worked.  I think we can also assume that Ennis was satisfied with less than Jack was.  Also, in that Ennis is more repressed, unless someone came onto him, I am not sure if he would have ever sought anyone out.  In fact, it almost always seemed to be Jack's idea. 

In people I've encountered or gave advice to, there seems to definitely be a personality trait in some of them that requires the other guy to make the first move.  They "want it" but for whatever reason they will drop cookie crumbs and hints, but still make you be the one to suggest it.  I don't know why that is, but it has been something I've seen in several people.
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Offline Phillip Dampier

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2006, 08:32:36 pm »
I think Ennis is gay, and also that he is in love with Jack.  Both factors add up to his subjective experience that making love to Jack is better than any other sexual experience.  Because of his internalized homophobia, he just can't conceive of himself as being gay.

I lean more towards Ennis being bisexual and Jack being gay.  Jack definitely has more hormones than Ennis though.  But I am a big believer in the Kinsey scale on sexuality, so I don't usually believe in absolutes.  I'd put Jack maybe a 7-8 leaning towards gay and Ennis a 5-6. (1 being exclusively heterosexual in feelings/manner 10 being exclusively homosexual.) 

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In general, the Annie's story shows that Ennis is closed and reserved and shy around everyone but Jack.  When he's with Jack, he opens up, relaxes, and can even get quite chatty.

Well, chatty for Ennis.   :)  For a lot of us he'd still be Mr. Quiet.
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Offline Phillip Dampier

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2006, 08:36:18 pm »
[That scene in the movie with Jack lying on his left side and reaching with his RIGHT hand across Ennis to get Ennis's right hand was stupidly awkward. Understanding the nature of Ennis, he would not have allowed Jack to do that all of a sudden and probably would have slugged him.] And from the way that Annie Proulx wrote the story, Jack could have been naked in the bedroll. I know that one can stay warmer when camping out and having enough blankets to keep out the cold, it is better to sleep without clothes. Ennis does undo his belt and his jeans in the story and even pushes them down; but, Jack is already ready to accept Ennis immediately.

Yes, that first scene was not believable to me either.  I agree Ennis probably would have slugged him.  Has anyone ever had an experience similar to Jack & Ennis?  The second scene was far more realistic to me.
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Offline Impish

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #7 on: March 13, 2006, 10:19:41 am »

Yes, that first scene was not believable to me either.  I agree Ennis probably would have slugged him.  Has anyone ever had an experience similar to Jack & Ennis? 

Yes.

That scene was not only believable to me, but absolutely based in realism.

However, I never agreed with those on the imdb board when they claimed Lee was directing (or the screenplay transferred) the scene straight out of the book.  When viewing that scene, I see Jack half-asleep reaching over and pulling Ennis' arm around him to spoon.  I don't see Jack putting Ennis' hand on his "little Jack," as the book describes.

Then when Ennis explodes from under the blanket, Jack confronts him and is thinking "well, the cat's now out of the bag, so I'm gonna go for it."

He sensed that Ennis could deal better with the sex than he could with the intimcay of spooning.  The roughness of their first time came from Ennis, and it's the only way he could proceed.  The tenderness came the next time, after Ennis had 24 hours to assimilate what had happened.

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Offline Jack_ME

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2006, 12:39:36 am »
One of the most wierd aspects of Ennis (snip) is that he seems to be only attracted to ONE man. 

(snip) Annie writes, "You know, I was sittin up here all that time tryin to figure out if I was --?  I know I ain't. I mean here we both got wives and kids, right? I like doin it with women, yeah, but ..., ain't nothin like this.  I never had no thoughts a doin it with another guy except I sure wrang it out a hunderd times thinkin about you.


The subject of Ennis's (and Jack's too) sexual orientation is one I enjoy discussing and have on several threads on other boards.

First of all, I must state and remind, that to me, there are two separate works of art: The film which Ang Lee directed and the short story which Annie Proulx wrote. And due to that there are 4 main characters: Film Ennis and Film Jack, and Story Ennis and Story Jack.

The film is not a documentary of the story. So one can not analyze in depth and make interpretations and projections of character traits by mixing the two media. It's impossible and not honestly fair to either.

Film Ennis's innate sexual orientation is heterosexual to me. Film Ennis does have to deal with fear and homophobic indoctrination. But Film Ennis is NOT a repressed homosexual in denial about his orientation.

Film Jack's innate sexual orientation is also heterosexual, but I would classify him as BI-sexual. Film Jack's character is also NOT a repressed homosexual and not in denial.

The film is undoubtedly about a Homosexual Relationship and the difficulties and impossibilities of that being experessed in a natural unfettered way in that time and in that place.

But to me, there are many layers in this film which makes it so fascinating and which allows it to stand up to deep analysis and interpretation.

One of the main layers of the film is the quesiton of sexual orientation I feel. And I feel that question is brought up, because we are presented with two heterosexually oriented men, one with more openness to easily exploring other possiblilities. Because these two men met, and because of their respective past lives of loneliness, Ennis especially, but Jack too has suffered some due to that, these two bond while alone on the mountain that first Summer. And they grow in affection and eventually they grow in love. The physical aspect of their relationship, though initially possiblly a youth and hormone driven act, is reexpressed in the context of love and emotional bonding. And it is that intense bonding which carries through their lives.

I left the quote in above even though it is from the story, and I maintain the two must be analyzed independently to be truly valid, only because, some have used that to support their view that Ennis actually homosexual. But that statement he makes, is motivated by his own awe and confusion. Not confusion about his orientation, but confusion about how can it be possible for him, as a heterosexual man, to so love his friend Jack that he is sexually excited by him as well.

In the film we only ever see Ennis interested in Jack, homosexually. There are no other past, ongoing, or will there be future homosexual relationships in his life, NOT because he is repressed, but because he is not homosexually oriented. He loved the person of Jack, and that love wanted physical expression and they gave it physical expression. But it was always ABOUT the person of Jack for Ennis. We also do see Ennis happily married for a time, actively and passionately sexual with Alma at least 4 times (the two children and the two encounters we witness). Also we see and hear that he is in a sexual relationship with Cassie. But all this time he was in love with Jack the whole person, not jack the male body. While one can try to explain away Alma has a marraige during a time when Jack and Ennis were separated with no expectation of a resumption in their relationship, one can not easily explain away the presence of Cassie in his life. One can say that because he was so in love with Jack, he was not as interested in emotional involvement with Cassie and in the end she gave up on him.

For Jack, in the film there is also, Ennis for a homosexual encounter, and then we see Jack go to Mexico and pick up the hustler. While some have interpreted this scene to be INDICATIVE of Jack's behaviour, there is another equally valid interpretation. That is, Jack first goes there after being painfully rejected by Ennis, when Jack had thought Ennis had invited him after his divorce. Jack was hurting and he needed som conforting, and he went to a place, and chose a man whose build was like his Ennis, not for a physical sexual encounter, but for the physical intimacy he wanted from Ennis. The touching and holding and closeness. While no doubt actual sex was involved, I feel that the motive for Jack's trip was emotional hurt.

Later we see Randall seemingly making insinuating suggestions to Jack and seemingly Jack is picking up on that. Later still we learn from Jack's father that in fact there was some other man in Jack's life. Some assume it is this Randall. But earlier in that scene we see Jack expressing interest in LaShawn by asking her to dance. While some may dismiss that as incidental, to me it is indicative of Jack's interest in females. When Jack later tells Ennis he is having an affair with a rancher's wife, and is likely to get shot by Lureen or the rancher, I take him literrally. Others have said he was lying there about the gender of the person to protect/decieve Ennis, but they base that on a preconceived idea that Jack is gay, and on the subsequent remark of Jack's which starts with "Truth is...." but that seems quite a natural thought progression to me. First Jack asks Ennis about getting remarried, and Ennis tells of "putting the blocks to...", then Ennis asks Jack about Lureen. While Jack indicates that they don't have much emotional sharing, his initial reaction is one of "sure normal", not anything along the lines of "never touch her", then he speaks of his affair with the rancher's wife......they have a laugh. Then there is a reflective pause....and since they have been on the subject of relationships, it is natural that Jack's mind would turn toward the lack he feels at never having enough time with Ennis, and so he says that...starting out with "Truth is.....sometimes it gets....."

As to Jack's BI sexuality, we see him readily and enthusiastically engaging with Lureen in the back seat. And then later we see him dancing with LaShawn and then later we have his word that he is having an affair with a rancher's wife.  And we do see him go to Mexico, be with Ennis and we learn that there was another man in his life. So Jack has freely chosen involvements with both genders. Not once but a couple of times. To me that makes his orientation BI sexual.

As I said above, the topic is of interest to me, because I feel to lable these two as repressed homosexuals is to short change a whole layer of the film which is saying that Love IS a force of nature, and true intense love for another PERSON, can override even one's sexual orientation. I believe that can happen, and I have heard on the various boards from others who have had a similar experience to Ennis and Jack.

Certainly not all married homosexuals are really heterosexauls. Many are in denial, and many are repressed, but there are surely some males who are not homosexual but who have had a homosexual love, or at one time a relationship of some degree, never to be repeated. To automatically class this as repressed homosexuality is unfair and not true. It is possible for humans to have love for another regardless of gender or inherent sexual orientation. And it is possible for two people of the same gender to engage physically, without that necessarily implying that either one must be homosexual, or repressed.

We humans, here in the United States especially, want to force everyone under one label or another. While Philip has referenced the Kinsey scale, and it makes it easier to discuss the points of view I've tried to make in this post, it too is a means of labeling. It wants to force everyone to have some degree of orientation and maybe that is actually true, but maybe there are 1s or 10s who in every relationship in their lives act as 1s and 10s, but who may have once in their lives been involved with the opposite end of that scale. That doesn't require them to be reevaluated and reclassified. It simple means that to be human is to have sexuality and to be human is also NOT to have sexuality limited to physical impulse such as animals have for the purposes of procreation. Humans are sexual beings, and humans are emotional beings. Humans need bonding, and humans need love. There are those times when two humans bond and love and that leads to physical desire and sexual expression regardless of the genders of the two humans who  love each other.

As I said ,there are long threads on this topic on other boards, and I myself initiated one on ennisjack.com called Sexual Orientation. It can be found under the parent board called Mountain Cafe.

My user name is the same there as it is here and on most all other forums.

I welcome discussion and I enjoy debate. But please, do not try to argue the points I've made about the film characters, by quoting the story or the story characters. This film was not a Biography of actual people. The film was BASED on the story, and the film is Ang Lee's interpretation of Proulx's story. And as Annie Proulx herself says....a story is not finished until the reader finishes it by bringing his/her own interpretaions and life experiences to it. So surely Ang Lee is entitled to do that too. And he did.

Jack in Maine


Offline Aussie Chris

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2006, 09:33:54 am »
Hi Jack, goodness you REALLY like thinking about this don't you?  All power to you, as long as you're having fun. :)

You know, one of the best things about BBM is that everyone can view it and come away with their own interpretation, and they're all correct.  If you see two straight men, then that's what they are (please note that I'm agreeing with you from a certain point of view).  However, on reflection I see two gay men that have so convinced themselves that they are straight that they actually believe it.  I think you could just as easily take all of the points in your post, turn them on their head saying that they're really gay, and in denial, and all of the scenes still work!  So in my opinion, there is little point in trying to convince anyone of a particular point of view, because I don't think there's a single right answer.

Ok, past all the formalities now so I can talk about what I saw in these characters (again just for fun).  As I said I think both of them were gay, but because of their own prejudices they could not accept it and therefore tried to pursue a straight life, more or less successfully.  I also think an interesting question to consider is, would they have had any type of gay relationship if they hadn't met on BBM?  This is probably where your perspective has the most credibility, since if Jack and Ennis had never met they probably wouldn't have had a gay relationship at all with anyone else, and therefore they're straight.  This is especially true of Ennis who probably would never have gone down this path, who knows about Jack though.  But I have a lot of trouble accepting all this because meet they did, and more importantly they fell in love.  In my mind, it is the fact that they were in love and slept together far outweighs the fact that they were also married and had children.

The thing that most makes me see Ennis as gay is the fact that he becomes less and less capable of maintaining his straight life as the film progresses.  After they first leave the mountain we know that Ennis loves Jack, although we don't fully understand this until the flashback.  They part company and Ennis doesn't think that they'll see each other again.  He fulfils his conjugal duties, although we see that his desires are not entirely "missionary" in nature.  But after the reunion and the affair begins, Ennis' physical relationship with Alma deteriorates to the point that he would rather leave her alone if she didn't want more kids.  In my opinion, Ennis is gay and the film is about his journey to that realisation.

As for Jack, well some people say his bisexual, some say gay, Jake Gyllenhaal himself said that he thought Jack was straight but "in love" with Ennis.  Bisexual?  Do we think this because he has sex with both men and women?  Whoop-de-do I say!  How many times have we heard about married men finally coming to terms with their sexuality later in life, coming out and "becoming" fully gay.  The only time that I think bisexual is a relevant title is when an individual chooses to have both male and female lovers as a conscious and informed choice, interchanging the genders also by choice.  In Jack's case, it was far less about choice as necessity.  Now I know he didn't have to have sex with Lureen in the car, or get married, but then again neither did Ennis.  I just think that Jack needed to fulfil what he thought he was supposed to in the same way that Ennis did.  Again, this happened in the intervening 4 years before the reunion and the affair really begins.  I agree that Jack only went to Mexico as a result of the rejection from Ennis, but I disagree that this was just about having intimacy with someone that was like Ennis.  The more important point is that he would have moved in with Ennis in a flash if he had the chance.  To me, Jack was gay but was locked into his situation simply because of Ennis' reluctance to commit.

In my mind, two men who are in love means that they're gay.  It's like that saying: if it quacks has feathers and swims in a pond, it's probably a duck.
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Offline Jack_ME

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #10 on: March 22, 2006, 02:32:13 pm »
So in my opinion, there is little point in trying to convince anyone of a particular point of view, because I don't think there's a single right answer.

Yes but Aussie Chris, it's NOT about trying to convince anyone of anything, it's about HAVING the discussion.

And hopefully in the process provoking an examination and reevaluation of how one often simply labels someone else, without really having done the analytical thinking oneself to see whether the label is truly appropriate for that other person.


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In my mind, it is the fact that they were in love and slept together far outweighs the fact that they were also married and had children.

We don't have a whole lot to go one, but what about the love that Ennis had for Alma? Their early time together depicted by the sledding scene, and the friendly wrestling, and then later at the Drive In movie seems to speak of being in love. As I say it's not a lot to go on, but there is no reason to assume that Ennis DIDN'T love Alma, and they certainly slept together.

As for Jack and Lureen, we have even less to go on, but we do have two scenes that might indicate that. At the birth of their son, Jack is naturally excited about that in and of itself, but his doorway look could certainly indicate a love for Lureen, and their son.

Later in the Thanksgiving scene, of course that scene in the end has most to do with Jack standing up to LD, but even as he is bringing in the dinner, and later jousting for control of the TV, his actions are a concern for Lureen and her wishes. She is the one who initially wants/or threatens the TV off, and Jack reacts to that in support. That inital action was no intended confrontaion with LD. It was he who butted in. And Lureen's expression throughout that scene reflects that she is proud and pleased with Jack's actions. That certainlly indicated to me that she loved him and I think we could use it to say he loved her.

But to be fair, I will also acknowledge that in what Jack expressed to Ennis, he made clear he could quite easily, and likely would, choose Ennis over Lureen, if he had that option.


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The thing that most makes me see Ennis as gay is the fact that he becomes less and less capable of maintaining his straight life as the film progresses. 

To be fair I think you have to say that Ennis becomes less and less capable of maintaining his life PERIOD....not his "straight" life.

The stress of loving someone, having only brief shared times, and then being alone and lonely most of the other time is very painful and hard on his emotional well being. It isn't about his "straight" (sexual) life. In the last physical encounter we see between Ennis and Alma, we see tha Alma has become bitter and even mean. She has insulted him, if not by untruths, then by the manner she presented that. When we move to the very next scene, the divorce scene, we see a very upset, and crying Ennis at being divorced. We do not see someone relieved to be out of the marriage. I have no doubt that it was Alma's bitterness that had at least equal weight with Ennis's sadness at being separated from Jack which entered into the ultimate decision to divorce. We don't know if Alma and Monroe were an item prior to her divorce, and have no reason to assume that, but also it can't be denied that working together, she probably knew of his feelings and considered how he could support her and her children. Only to say that Alma's attitude is likely what drove that couple to divorce, NOT Ennis's love of Jack, or his "repressed" homosexuality.


 
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He fulfils his conjugal duties, although we see that his desires are not entirely "missionary" in nature.  But after the reunion and the affair begins, Ennis' physical relationship with Alma deteriorates to the point that he would rather leave her alone if she didn't want more kids. 

We see two sexual encounters between Alma and Ennis. And we know of two others, as they have two children. It is obvious that Ennis and Alma engaged in "missionary" copulation....since they have two children. Also, in the second sexual encounter we see, Alma puts a halt to it as she is concerned about their ability to support more children, ie, Ennis was either in or about to be in a child producing possible situation.

In the first encounter we see, he does flip Alma over and there is an associative implication made but it doesn't have to say anything about Ennis's orientation, only about his previous experience.



(still regarding Jack)
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The only time that I think bisexual is a relevant title is when an individual chooses to have both male and female lovers as a conscious and informed choice, interchanging the genders also by choice. 

This was my point in referencing the female experiences we know of from the film. Certainly, in real life, a person can go to a benefit dance and ask someone to dance for no other reason than to be socialble. But this is a movie, and in a movie everything we see has been chosen by the director so as to tell the story. There was no reason to have Jack ask LaShawn to dance. Unless it was to show that Jack DID have an interest in women. If that whole scene was siimply to present the Randall/Jack bench encounter, that could have been done without the dancing. LaShawn had already been a non-stop chatterer, and it was clear where they were located.

And then Jack's own admission to Ennis of having the affair with the rancher's wife.


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In my mind, two men who are in love means that they're gay. 


That seems pretty broad, and seems to discount or re-classify, all the real life-life bonded relationships we know exist betwen men, as between war buddies, or between college chums, or between childhood friends maintained into adulthood, to name three. These relationships have real love, though they may not have sexual activity. And to make the distinction of love vs. in love, surely in many of these relationships there was a period when it was "in love"although never expressed in those words, and the relationship never moved into the realm of physical intimacy.


As you said in the beginning of your reply post, I DO enjoy thinking about and discussing the subject of sexual orientation in general, and our pre-conceived notions of that, and of the film BBM characters' orientation.

And it is so true that part of what makes BBM such a masterpiece of film, is that the film can stand up to this extensive scrutiny and analysis. I find that quite amazing, but I think it is why this film has had such an impact on so many folks. As we know it is not only "gay" men who admire and are fascinated by this film. It's people of all walks and thoughts. And that's great.


Thanks again for having taken the time to respond, Aussie Chris. I appreciate the discussion.

Jack in Maine


Offline Aussie Chris

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2006, 01:09:16 am »
Hi Jack, I don't think I was trying to suggest that you were trying to push your point of view.  This was an acknowledgement not an accusation.  It's quite a delicate proposition really, discussing a subject with people who feel very strongly about it.  But it's also quite interesting, and I'm always game! ;)

One thing that has puzzled me about your posts is the fact that on one hand you seem to be saying that Jack and Ennis are really heterosexual and you use specific scenes in the film to justify this (eg sledding and babies).  You also seem to want to reduce their homosexual relationship to something akin to the strong bond that childhood friends might experience (and if so I strongly disagree with this).  But in your earlier post you also close by challenging the use of labels in any form in the paragraph that starts: "We humans, here in the United States especially, want to force everyone under one label or another".  I'm confused about whether you do or do not want to apply a label to Jack & Ennis, and if so which one.  Or if you don't want to use a label, then how is one supposed to describe their nature?  This is actually a leading question because I also think that labels over-simplify things.

When I think about the characters of Jack and Ennis I do not think about scene specific situations one way or the other.  I don't use the "heterosexual scenes" to justify that they are straight any more than the "homosexual scenes" to justify that they are gay or bisexual.  Basically I imagine that they were gay but so determined to be "straight" that they successfully manage to have sexual relationships with their wives and father children.  I may be wrong, this just works for me.  If for a moment we consider that they were gay and in denial, in my opinion this could explain how and why their heterosexual relationships started and continued for as long as they did.  They were simply determined to present that side of themselves, only a facade, to the world.  At the opposite end of the scale, the idea that they were really heterosexual and any homosexual tendencies were simply because of camaraderie seems a little weak to me.  Nevertheless, I have no problem with agreeing with you that Ennis sincerely loved Alma and Jack loved Lureen.

Ok, so do I think that what I have written here makes me more right?  Definitely not.  It is simply the perception I have of the characters based on my own life experience.  I for one have a number of straight-male friends for whom I enjoy a wonderfully close relationship with, which even includes hugs and the occasional kiss hello/goodbye.  But at no time have I ever thought that these relationships were anything more than platonic, and they are nothing less than straight.  My friends are a rare breed of heterosexuals that are completely unafraid of gays, and are mature enough to be able to show affection to other men without worrying if that makes them a little bit gay, or even if it did it doesn't mean they are going to have sex with them.  But Jack and Ennis are not of this rare breed.  They shared a romantic attraction with each other that consumes their lives from that moment on.  Whether you want to say this makes them more bisexual is more about your definition of "bisexual", which is true if you only consider the fact that they slept with men and women.  But I don't think that's how they should be defined as bisexual because of how they felt emotionally.  It occurs to me that they would have been happier being gay if it weren't for the time, society, and their own prejudices.  Everything else is circumstance.

Just my humble opinion of course...  :)
« Last Edit: March 23, 2006, 08:55:34 am by Aussie Chris »
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Offline Suffused

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #12 on: March 23, 2006, 07:21:49 pm »
IMHO

It's called The Closet

Jack and Ennis were married as a survival technique.  Partly out of ignorance of the possibility that they could be gay and partly out of just doing what they were taught to do...no such thing as gay role models.

I like how Aussie Chris calls them emotionally gay.  Implying they were Intelectually straight...to survive, I assume.
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Offline JCinNYC2006

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #13 on: March 24, 2006, 07:36:15 pm »
I haven't posted much lately because I don't have enough time, but I'm loving the exchange going on here.  I find sexual orientation to be so complex because it involves a physical/sexual reaction and an emotional reaction.  All these social and cultural messages influence how comfortable we feel acting on these impulses, which aren't necessarily fixed, as well as even having the feelings themselves. 

Then on top of that comes sexual identity, that 'label' we take on (or don't), like gay, straight, bisexual, and whatever other variations have come down the pike.  Sexual identity doesn't always reflect either orientation or behavior, hence married heterosexual men who get involved with other men, or that cool British show "Bob and Rose" about a gay man who falls in love with a straight woman.  But sexual identity is often used interchangeably with sexual orientation. 

Like I would say that my orientation is homosexual, because my physical and emotional attraction is towards men.  But I would also say that I identify as gay, because I've chosen to take on that identity as a way to organize my sexuality for myself and that's how I want to present to the world.  (I shudder at the thought of actually being introduced as "my homosexual uncle" or something.)

It's not always so simple that identity and orientation reflect each other so well, either for us currently (Jim McGreevey anyone?) or for guys from Jack and Ennis' time.  So I often find questions of whether Jack and Ennis are really gay to be moot because, as has been mentioned in plenty of threads here and on other boards, to conceive of themselves that way, as "queer", wasn't an option.  They were aware of the fact that men could be with men, but their, or at least Ennis', view of that was extremely narrow - "I don’t want a be like them guys you see around sometimes. And I don’t want a be dead."

I get why there's debate on whether they're gay or not.  But "gay" is a relatively modern construct that doesn't apply very well.  I find it too simplistic when there's speculation about whether Lincoln was gay, for example.  But I understand how gay is used as shorthand for trying to describe who Jack and Ennis are.  It just comes up short (no pun intended), because their backgrounds, the homophobia they experienced, and their relationships with other men and women make it too simplistic. 

There is a lot of evidence to point to, in both the movie and the story, to make the argument that either one of them could take on the label of bisexual or gay or even heterosexual.  But the interpretation of different behaviors - Jack's romp with Lureen, Ennis flipping Alma over for sex, Jack picking up the hustler, Ennis "putting the blocks" to Cassie, Jack telling Ennis about an affair with a ranchand's wife - is pretty much subjective and influenced by the interpreter's own point of view.  How we want to label either of them reflects our own experiences and perspectives, as is how we label, or identify if you will, ourselves.  I've had friends who call themselves bisexual, and my inclination is to roll my eyes because I've mostly seen them involved with men.  But in the end, it's how they identify and I try to respect that.

Not to say I don't want to simplify things and put them into nice, neat packages myself.  My second time seeing the movie, I went with a friend and she asked me if Jack was "the gay one", and did I think if he hadn't "seduced" Ennis maybe Ennis wouldn't be gay.  I didn't really know how to answer her, except to say that I didn't think either one of them saw themselves as gay because they couldn't (or wouldn't).  Are they married gay men?  Hetero men with a one-shot thing that lasted a lifetime?  I don't really know, and in a way, it's not that important to me anymore. 

In different circumstances, they might have gone through a "coming out" process and defined themselves as gay men, even had more of a chance to have a more open and fulfilling relationship. The beauty of the movie is watching them struggle to hold onto something between them when they didn't have the resources to "move to Denver" to be together.  And it messes with my head because I have gone through a very different process than they did, yet I still struggle with how content I am. 

And to think, I initially thought the subject "One Man Men" was gonna be about Ennis' emotional monogamy to Jack.
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Offline Jack_ME

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #14 on: March 25, 2006, 12:27:05 am »
Hi Jack, I don't think I was trying to suggest that you were trying to push your point of view. 

Aussie Chris, I didn't interpret it that way at all. I was just restating that it is the discussion, of all points of view, which I feel is important, not trying to change anyone's ideas, but hopefully in the process of discussing, folks will change or enlarge upon their own ideas of sexual orientation themselves as they think about, clarify, and express their point.

Quote
One thing that has puzzled me about your posts is the fact that on one hand you seem to be saying that Jack and Ennis are really heterosexual and you use specific scenes in the film to justify this (snip)You also seem to want to reduce their homosexual relationship to something akin to the strong bond that childhood friends might experience (snip)  But in your earlier post you also close by challenging the use of labels in any form  (snip) I'm confused about whether you do or do not want to apply a label to Jack & Ennis, and if so which one.  Or if you don't want to use a label, then how is one supposed to describe their nature? 

Chris, you slightly miss my point, or I did not clearly express it. I DO feel that people tend to apply labels unthinkingly, only motivated by a shorthand simplistic means of distinguishing "others" from themselves. For a person to SELF-identify as anything s/he wants is fine. And for another to THINK about and consider some whole individual and then come to some conclusion (and label if appropriate) is also fine.
It's the automatic labeling based soley on some  single element that I object to and which is so common.

I enjoy the discussion because I enjoy having to think about what I mean when I say Jack is BI-sexual and Ennis is innately heterosexually oriented. But these two persons came together, and due to the circumstances of that meeting of souls, each coming from his own past, they bonded, they fell in love, and from that Person to Person love there also grew a physical relationship which was about expressing love, one for the other. Being both males, then of course the RELATIONSHIP was a homosexual relationship, but it does not have to follow then that the two people WERE homosexuals in denial. They were two people in a relationship.

So many people say: man has sex with man then HE IS homosexual, and if he doesn't embrace that identity then he is in denial.
But even in the face of that, to reverse it: man has sex with woman, then he is heterosexual and if he doesn't embrace that then he must be in denial of his heterosexuality. So "gay" man has sex with women? Discounted as cause for any explanation of his identity, still "gay".....and all the stories of REPRESSED individuals come out in support of that.

Woman has sex with woman, that by definiition is homosexual activity, but rarely will people AUTOMATICALLY say that one or the other woman is homosexual and unless she embrace that identity she is living in denial. No! Woman having sex with woman is somehow acceptable heterosexual activity. She just wanted to explore...just wanted a little variety...just wanted some kicks...whatever.

But no man can ever have sex with another man, without incuring either the label of outright Homosexual, or Repressed Homosexual, or Closeted Homosexual.

And in general too, if a Woman self-identifies as BI-sexual....she is cool, is bohemian, is intriguing.....etc.
If a man self-identifies as BI-sexual....he is deluding himself...can't accept his homosexuality...is in denial...etc.

I am simplifying in stating the cases, but perhaps you get my point in wanting to have a discussion on sexual orientation in general, and Jack and Ennis's in particular.

Also, it is good to point out that the word "gay" has quite a lot of implied baggage. Likewise the word "homosexual" has implied baggage. Do they mean the same thing? NO! Do most people use them AS IF THEY MEANT THE SAME? YES!

Jack and Ennis were definitely NOT gay. Gayness as we think of it, did not really exist in 1963. Were Jack and Ennis homosexual? I say no, but others say yes.

Gay implies a whole structured society, and social identity. Homosexual implies a sexual orientation, and or a sexual behaviour.

Can a person be a homosexual and NOT be gay? Yes.
Can a person be "gay" and not be a homosexual? Theoretically yes, practically no. (There is a slang term to describe a heterosexually oriented woman, ie, a woman sexually attracted to a man's body, but who rarely or never dates heterosexual men, and who instead surrounds herself with male homosexuals, and who sometimes falls in love with male homosexuals......that woman is "gay" in the sense I mean and stated above. Her "gayness" is NOT about her sexuality so much as it is about her cultural and societal constructs.)

When folks self-identify as "gay" they are identifying with a whole lot of NON-sexual things. A community, a cause, a life-style (in the truest sense of that word).

There are homosexuals who are neither repressed/closeted, nor "out/gay", but simply keep that part of their being, their sexuality to themselves and do not see it as lense through which everything else in their life must be viewed. They may have a special friend, a lover in the true sense of that word, for whom they care deeply, or they may choose to not be sexual, or they may choose to only have casual encounters ("go to Mexico"). The rest of their life is as ordinary as their neighbors, their siblings, their coworkers.

This too is part of why I feel it is good to have these discussions. We short change this last group. We condemn them as repressed if they don't shout out their sexual orientation and become "gay" culturally.

To clarify, I am not giving any value judgements, I am simply trying to make the point that the label "gay" has lots of implications which do not fit all homosexuals, and just because that label does not fit some homosexual individuals does not mean THE INDIVIDUALS are in denial or wrong, it means the LABEL is wrong and limititing.

For now....
Jack in Maine




Offline Jack_ME

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #15 on: March 25, 2006, 12:49:45 am »

JCinNYC2006 thank you for your thoughtful post.

I think you and I would agree on many points, points which I've been trying to bring up for discussion here and elsewhere. It's good that folks think about what they mean when they use the phrase: sexual orientation.

The whole realm of ones sexuality, sexual orientation, sexual identity, are NOT automatically interchangeable. They DO represent different facets of a person's being. When folks unthinkingly slap a label on someone else, they are denying these important differences.

It's amusing that one of the arguements for "gay rights" is that "we are just like you", yet the "gay" culture is very much about saying the opposite most of the time in action and deed!

There is no doubt that mental, emotional, spiritual wholeness and health are important to the well being of every individual. And there is also no doubt that many homosexual people have suffered due to negative sick-making thinking foisted on them by institutions of culture, which they've adopted and through which they view themselves. That is tragic and very sad and what we should all want for each other, is to beome more whole and more healthy in ourselves. So it is true that some folks are in denial, and those folks need to come to terms with things they have INTENTIONALLY repressed or denied. But it does NOT follow that ALL homosexuals are suffering in that way, UNLESS they make some public statement or change of culture around their sexual orientation. Many homosexuals are healthy and whole and know their sexual orientation but choose to keep that part of their lives private, and in all other ways are simply average members of their society.  These labels which get tossed around are too limiting, and becasue they are too limiting, we force individuals under the one we decide is most suitable. And it's pretty evident that the labels Hetero, Homo, and BI are just not going to cover every person and every circumstance, becasue those labels are loaded with implications which are not accurate for all people. A Hetero who engages in a Homo act, or relationship. A Homo who engages in a Hetero act or relationship (who marries for instance). These simplistic labels force other implications of denial/repression which while true in some cases are simply not true in all cases.

More thoughts.....
Jack in Maine

Offline Aussie Chris

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #16 on: March 25, 2006, 06:37:14 am »
Chris, you slightly miss my point, or I did not clearly express it. I DO feel that people tend to apply labels unthinkingly, only motivated by a shorthand simplistic means of distinguishing "others" from themselves. For a person to SELF-identify as anything s/he wants is fine. And for another to THINK about and consider some whole individual and then come to some conclusion (and label if appropriate) is also fine.  It's the automatic labeling based soley on some single element that I object to and which is so common.

Wow, I only slightly miss your point?  I'm glad because I was worried that we were just stuck on semantics.  But I think the penny has finally dropped.

Ok, so you see a distinction between homosexual behaviour (sexual activity with someone of the same gender but without necessarily identifying with that behaviour) and gay (a person that identifies themself as being part of a community of homosexuals).  Is this a fair summary of your point?

You also have a problem with the double standard where it is apparently ok for “heterosexual” women to have homosexual encounters and retain their “straight” status, but with men a single homosexual encounter forever brands them as gay and in denial.  Again, is this fair?

For now, I’ll just assume that you’re ok with these statements and within this context I agree with you that Jack and Ennis were not gay.  However, I still struggle with your contention that Ennis was innately heterosexual.  If you say this because Ennis may never have had a homosexual encounter at all had he not met Jack, I think that misses the point that Ennis had it within him to fall romantically and expressively in love with Jack in the first place?  Apart from the possible exclusion of youthful experimentation, I just don’t think heterosexuals do this, innately or otherwise.

Quote
So many people say: man has sex with man then HE IS homosexual, and if he doesn't embrace that identity then he is in denial.

Hmmm, there’s that identity thing again.  For the record, I don’t think that if a man has sex with another man it automatically makes him homosexual, but at the risk of being yelled at, if he has a 20 year sexual relationship with another man, when exactly does his inherent heterosexuality end?  Without making any accusations, isn’t this a question of maturity?

I’m going to move now to your rant (meant lovingly) about the double standards of female versus male sexual diversity and labelling, and more importantly how these are used as tools of discrimination (though I don't get to this until the end of this post).

This issue runs right through society on just about every level, particularly straight western society.  Just about every straight person I have talked to about art has professed that the female form has more artistic merit than the male one.  They gleefully describe how a female’s shape is more interesting to paint/sculpt/view.  In my early days of coming out I accepted this along with many other declarations along those lines.  At the time this bothered me but I didn’t have the words to counter it.  But there was one other aspect to this that made it difficult for me to argue: you see I personally don’t have a problem with the female form.  I am definitely gay, but I still see beauty in the feminine physique and I don’t see the need to find fault in women just because I’m a gay male.  The fact that the heterosexual world seems to be caught up with this silliness is their problem, not mine.

Quote
I am simplifying in stating the cases, but perhaps you get my point in wanting to have a discussion on sexual orientation in general, and Jack and Ennis's in particular.

Definitely, although I can’t help but think that the use of labelling to discriminate is unduly influencing this conversation.  As I alluded to earlier, I’m a bit of a “sticks and stones” sort of person; I cannot be damaged with words unless I give credibility to those words.  I am gay, and like any of the characteristics I have (height, nationality, gender, age, etc) - I cannot be made to be offended by what simply is.

Quote
Can a person be a homosexual and NOT be gay? Yes.
Can a person be "gay" and not be a homosexual? Theoretically yes, practically no. (There is a slang term to describe a heterosexually oriented woman, ie, a woman sexually attracted to a man's body, but who rarely or never dates heterosexual men, and who instead surrounds herself with male homosexuals, and who sometimes falls in love with male homosexuals......that woman is "gay" in the sense I mean and stated above. Her "gayness" is NOT about her sexuality so much as it is about her cultural and societal constructs.)

Ok, sorry but you’ve completely lost me here.  I was prepared to accept the notion that there was a difference (for you) between being gay and homosexual in the degree of acceptance, but I cannot accept that you can be gay without being homosexual.  And a woman who falls romantically in love with a gay man is neither gay nor homosexual - she is simply foolish unless she didn’t know he was gay.  [winces in preparation for being flamed on that point]

Quote
To clarify, I am not giving any value judgements, I am simply trying to make the point that the label "gay" has lots of implications which do not fit all homosexuals, and just because that label does not fit some homosexual individuals does not mean THE INDIVIDUALS are in denial or wrong, it means the LABEL is wrong and limititing.

Let me ask you this: if there was no discrimination in the world, or if the individuals that might be accused of being gay didn’t care what others thought, how could this label be either wrong or limiting?  And the fact that they feel they need to conceal their sexuality through secrecy or abstinence, isn’t that the very definition of denial?

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Offline JCinNYC2006

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #17 on: March 25, 2006, 04:51:33 pm »
Hey Jack, thanks for your reply.  I agree, we are in synch on many points about orientation vs. identity and how they are used interchangeably when they can also mean different things.  And a main gripe for me is when there's an effort to put a label on someone, as many fans of BBM want to do with Jack and Ennis, and when we try to understand how the person identifies him or herself.  I'm a gay man.  I am a social worker and I have tended to concentrate mostly on LGBT cilents.  My doctor was gay.  My therapist was gay.  My dentist was gay.  Even an old accountant of mine was friggin' gay.  For a long time I surrounded myself in a community where being gay was a big focus, and I think that I did so as I was creating my own identity.  How good it was for me is debateable now (i.e. I don't have many straight friends, over-reliance on an increasingly splintered gay community, etc.) but that was my process. 

In a way, gays have become as dependent on labels for orientation being fixed in the same way that straights are - the label gives the illusion of thinking that you know all you need to know about this person and who they love or what they do in bed.  It's comforting to think that way, but limiting.  Taking on an identity like gay has political meaning as much as personal value, and like African American, the term has evolved as gay people have had more power to define how to identify ourselves.  We went from inverts to homosexuals to homophiles to gay, all the way to today where there's a move to reclaim queer as a more all encompassing identity.  And for many people, there's just less conception of even being able to claim an identity - situations like with Ennis where being 'normal' meant being a man who gets married and has kids.

It can be interesting to speculate on whether Jack would have adapted more easily to a gay identity at some point.  He certainly seems to have more potential as  he made more of an effort to at least be more comfortable and accepting of his attraction to men, to the point of suggesting over and over to Ennis the idea of living together and building a life together.  His relationship with Lureen had more mixed motivations.  I don't doubt that he had feelings for her and could probably sustain a sexual relationship as well, but clearly to a degree his motivation was more financial stability.  This is a position that women have been in since I don't when and has only changed in the last few decades, and obviously not for all women.  I guess I just can't say that because Jack could have more easily come to identify as gay means that he was gay, and I know plenty of people disagree with that perspective.

One point that Chris made, about if someone is accused of being gay and he doesn't care, how could calling him gay be "wrong or limiting"?  Two people come to mind:  Ricky Martin and Liberace.  Liberace did have relationships with men, and went to his grave denying this, even to the point of winning a libel case against a British newspaper.  That we now know he was involved with men, I guess yeah, you could say that made him "gay".  The necessity for him to be in denial about it, which I see as a maladaptive way of coping, is more important to me though, than claiming his as gay. 

Ricky Martin comes to mind as well because there are rumors that he is also gay.  He has denied it, saying something to the effect of "those people who want to think of me as gay are welcome to, and so are those who want to think of me as straight".  An evasive answer I suppose, and I know plenty of people who call it denial, and one friend who actually claims he was propositioned by him!  But what if he is heterosexual?  Then the label is inaccurate.  And when we will know?  If he decides to come out?  After he's dead?  Will it never be proven?  The identity gay has to be owned by the individual; otherwise I see it as short hand.  Useful, but limited, shorthand.

Juan
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Offline Rayn

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #18 on: March 28, 2006, 04:25:39 am »
"...to be human is to have sexuality and to be human is also NOT to have sexuality limited to physical impulse such as animals have for the purposes of procreation. Humans are sexual beings, and humans are emotional beings. Humans need bonding, and humans need love. There are those times when two humans bond and love and that leads to physical desire and sexual expression regardless of the genders of the two humans who  love each other."

Jack in Maine


    I want to respond to Patrick's question about "One Man Men" then a bit to the insightful post by Jack in Maine.   I do agree with Jack in Maine that for Ennis it's all about Jack, the person.  Ennis loves Jack and isn't interested in other men because he has more true intimacy with Jack than he's had with anyone else in his life. 

He loves Jack for that reason first.  It's not about Jack's body so much as it is Jack's heart and mind, but he loves Jack's mind and heart so much that it finds expression in physical form.  It's clear to me that Ennis and Jack are soulmates and souls, though they exist in bodies, have no gender.  This is confusing for Ennis at first, but it is his love that wins over his confusion and his fear to a great degree too.   

Jack is an oasis of intimacy and understanding for Ennis and that is part of the beauty of the relationship.  Ennis is one of the walking wounded, rememeber?  His folks are killed in a car accident, he was raised by siblings who, in the end have their own interests and who finally leave Ennis on his own, but more importantly, Ennis has suffered the terrifying trauma of seeing Earl, the tough old bird, lying in a ditch brutally maimed and murdered.  His own father may have had a hand in that, but regardless, his father makes a point of exposing his own nine year old son to this horror.  That left a deep and lasting fear in Ennis, but still, he loves Jack, still he cannot stop seeing Jack, he needs Jack.  It's a wonder that he can being so nearly emotionally crippled by the fear of homosexuality and what might happen to him if he ventures into that area of his sexuality!    So, it really is a testament to the power of real love that Ennis can fall in love with Jack at all. 

Love is a force of nature! 

That is what is so clear in Jack in Maine's post too.  I agree about 98% with Jack in Maine's views on the fim and characters, but the heart of what he says, the real gem within the lotus is  ..."Humans need bonding, and humans need love. There are those times when two humans bond and love and that leads to physical desire and sexual expression regardless of the genders of the two humans who love each other." 

Jack in Maine, it couldn't have been said better!  Thank you for your post. It was a three course meal with dessert.

Now, Patrick... I do know of men who are One Man Men.  Some guys are completely happy with one partner and find all they need in being with one man.  I don't think that we are all like that, but many are and personally, I think a guy is damned lucky to find a partner with whom he can be one with on as many levels as possible.  It's an ideal not many reach or reach for, but it's possible. 

Personally, I have been in two relationships where my partner was all I needed.  Oh, it didn't mean I didn't look and feel attraction for other guys, but I never felt much need to go outside the relationship of physical intimacy.  I think what Jack in Maine's post poiints to also is the many layers of experience, feelings, ideas and history that human beings, each of us really is.  No one is one dimensional.  Ok, that's it from me... before I begin to ramble.   

Peace,
Rayn
« Last Edit: March 30, 2006, 08:13:03 am by Rayn »

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #19 on: August 30, 2006, 05:17:50 pm »
I just wanted to reply to this because it's the site of my very first post on this board, back on March 8, 2006. We were a wordy bunch back then, weren't we!! Thanks and love to all of you who are still here today, and there are quite a few! Funny thing is, I don't think we have resolved this topic yet!!!

Thanks especially to Impish on this occasion, for introducing me to the "One Man Man" Rufus Wainwright!!
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Offline Momof2

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #20 on: August 30, 2006, 05:48:58 pm »
"...to be human is to have sexuality and to be human is also NOT to have sexuality limited to physical impulse such as animals have for the purposes of procreation. Humans are sexual beings, and humans are emotional beings. Humans need bonding, and humans need love. There are those times when two humans bond and love and that leads to physical desire and sexual expression regardless of the genders of the two humans who  love each other."

Jack in Maine


   
He loves Jack for that reason first.  It's not about Jack's body so much as it is Jack's heart and mind, but he loves Jack's mind and heart so much that it finds expression in physical form.  It's clear to me that Ennis and Jack are soulmates and souls, though they exist in bodies, have no gender.  This is confusing for Ennis at first, but it is his love that wins over his confusion and his fear to a great degree too.   

Jack is an oasis of intimacy and understanding for Ennis and that is part of the beauty of the relationship.  Ennis is one of the walking wounded, rememeber?  His folks are killed in a car accident, he was raised by siblings who, in the end have their own interests and who finally leave Ennis on his own, but more importantly, Ennis has suffered the terrifying trauma of seeing Earl, the tough old bird, lying in a ditch brutally maimed and murdered.  His own father may have had a hand in that, but regardless, his father makes a point of exposing his own nine year old son to this horror.  That left a deep and lasting fear in Ennis, but still, he loves Jack, still he cannot stop seeing Jack, he needs Jack.  It's a wonder that he can being so nearly emotionally crippled by the fear of homosexuality and what might happen to him if he ventures into that area of his sexuality!    So, it really is a testament to the power of real love that Ennis can fall in love with Jack at all. 

Love is a force of nature! 

I agree with that!!  I get so confused when people start labeling people.  I am straight.  Well more round than straight.  I love men.  I think they are beautiful and mysterious.  I also love women.  I think that they are beautiful and sexy.  I look at Playboy more than my husband.  I am enthralled with women.  I am probably attracted to them sexually.  Does this make me gay or homosexual?  I guess it would be lesbian.  Can you be a lesbian, never have had sex with a woman, be married to, sexually and emotionally attracted to a man and be a lesbian?  It is so confusing.  See what happens when we label people.

I have always thought that Jack and Ennis fell in love with each other and it just so happened that they were men.  I do not know what that makes them.  Well, I do.  It makes them LUCKY!!!
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Offline Aussie Chris

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #21 on: August 31, 2006, 05:28:47 pm »
I just wanted to reply to this because it's the site of my very first post on this board, back on March 8, 2006. We were a wordy bunch back then, weren't we!! Thanks and love to all of you who are still here today, and there are quite a few! Funny thing is, I don't think we have resolved this topic yet!!!

*sniff*  Ah the memories.  Thanks FR, nice little trip down memory lane.
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Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #22 on: September 01, 2006, 06:59:54 pm »
You're welcome, Chris. I hope Impish saw this too. The others who posted here...I haven't heard from in a long time. Maybe they're still active on Safe Haven.
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Offline Rayn

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #23 on: September 02, 2006, 05:32:02 am »
Thanks Mom of 2... for your honesty and insight. 

Rayn

Offline JT

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #24 on: September 05, 2006, 01:21:07 am »
Hi Jack, goodness you REALLY like thinking about this don't you?  All power to you, as long as you're having fun. :)

You know, one of the best things about BBM is that everyone can view it and come away with their own interpretation, and they're all correct.  If you see two straight men, then that's what they are (please note that I'm agreeing with you from a certain point of view).  However, on reflection I see two gay men that have so convinced themselves that they are straight that they actually believe it.  I think you could just as easily take all of the points in your post, turn them on their head saying that they're really gay, and in denial, and all of the scenes still work!  So in my opinion, there is little point in trying to convince anyone of a particular point of view, because I don't think there's a single right answer.

Ok, past all the formalities now so I can talk about what I saw in these characters (again just for fun).  As I said I think both of them were gay, but because of their own prejudices they could not accept it and therefore tried to pursue a straight life, more or less successfully.  I also think an interesting question to consider is, would they have had any type of gay relationship if they hadn't met on BBM?  This is probably where your perspective has the most credibility, since if Jack and Ennis had never met they probably wouldn't have had a gay relationship at all with anyone else, and therefore they're straight.  This is especially true of Ennis who probably would never have gone down this path, who knows about Jack though.  But I have a lot of trouble accepting all this because meet they did, and more importantly they fell in love.  In my mind, it is the fact that they were in love and slept together far outweighs the fact that they were also married and had children.

The thing that most makes me see Ennis as gay is the fact that he becomes less and less capable of maintaining his straight life as the film progresses.  After they first leave the mountain we know that Ennis loves Jack, although we don't fully understand this until the flashback.  They part company and Ennis doesn't think that they'll see each other again.  He fulfils his conjugal duties, although we see that his desires are not entirely "missionary" in nature.  But after the reunion and the affair begins, Ennis' physical relationship with Alma deteriorates to the point that he would rather leave her alone if she didn't want more kids.  In my opinion, Ennis is gay and the film is about his journey to that realisation.

As for Jack, well some people say his bisexual, some say gay, Jake Gyllenhaal himself said that he thought Jack was straight but "in love" with Ennis.  Bisexual?  Do we think this because he has sex with both men and women?  Whoop-de-do I say!  How many times have we heard about married men finally coming to terms with their sexuality later in life, coming out and "becoming" fully gay.  The only time that I think bisexual is a relevant title is when an individual chooses to have both male and female lovers as a conscious and informed choice, interchanging the genders also by choice.  In Jack's case, it was far less about choice as necessity.  Now I know he didn't have to have sex with Lureen in the car, or get married, but then again neither did Ennis.  I just think that Jack needed to fulfil what he thought he was supposed to in the same way that Ennis did.  Again, this happened in the intervening 4 years before the reunion and the affair really begins.  I agree that Jack only went to Mexico as a result of the rejection from Ennis, but I disagree that this was just about having intimacy with someone that was like Ennis.  The more important point is that he would have moved in with Ennis in a flash if he had the chance.  To me, Jack was gay but was locked into his situation simply because of Ennis' reluctance to commit.

In my mind, two men who are in love means that they're gay.  It's like that saying: if it quacks has feathers and swims in a pond, it's probably a duck.

I agree with you Chris, because I almost had similar personal experience before.  If we want to use labels, then I'm 100% gay.  If we don't want to use labels, then I'm 100% attracted to men only, emotionally and physically.  But at one point in my life, I contemplated marrying a women just to please my parents and my conservative sub culture.  I believe Jack and Ennis were both "gay" by nature and "straight" by nurture, and were in a similar situation as I was.  They just took it a step further by marrying while I didn't.  The only thing that stopped me from marrying then was that I didn't want to ruin another person's life by eventually not loving her, and watching this movie reinforces that.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #25 on: September 06, 2006, 10:13:48 am »
From Chris' long-ago post, quoted in JT's post:

Quote
Jake Gyllenhaal himself said that he thought Jack was straight but "in love" with Ennis.

Did Jake really say that? If so, there's one more reason not to take comments made in interviews with the stars/director/screenwriters/etc. as gospel. I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous. (But who knows in what context he might have said that, or whether it was misinterpreted by the interviewer or what. Again, reason not to take interviews as gospel.)

Offline nakymaton

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #26 on: September 06, 2006, 10:40:54 am »
Did Jake really say that?

Yeah, he really did.  ::) I think the same article asked Ang Lee about that, and he was a bit surprised that Jake had said that, as well, but said that the actors all found their own ways of understanding the characters, or something similarly vague and open-ended. ;D
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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #27 on: September 06, 2006, 10:49:04 am »
Did Jake really say that? If so, there's one more reason not to take comments made in interviews with the stars/director/screenwriters/etc. as gospel. I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous.
Agreed. Jack is very obviously a homosexual man who, in my opinion, is fairly in touch with that aspect of himself throughout the story. Now Ennis...well, we know how that has been debated.

Marge_Innavera

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #28 on: September 06, 2006, 11:04:20 am »
Just about every straight person I have talked to about art has professed that the female form has more artistic merit than the male one.  They gleefully describe how a female’s shape is more interesting to paint/sculpt/view.  In my early days of coming out I accepted this along with many other declarations along those lines.  At the time this bothered me but I didn’t have the words to counter it.  But there was one other aspect to this that made it difficult for me to argue: you see I personally don’t have a problem with the female form.  I am definitely gay, but I still see beauty in the feminine physique and I don’t see the need to find fault in women just because I’m a gay male.  The fact that the heterosexual world seems to be caught up with this silliness is their problem, not mine.

Well, in some ancient cultures it was acceptable for married women to have affairs with other women but not with men, because then their childrens' paternity wouldn't be in doubt. Today, in most cultures, it has to do with power.

Plenty of people have expressed better than me why so many heterosexual men feel threatened by the idea of men having sexual attachments to other men. However, in the case of women the dominant group finds lesbian action a turn-on so it goes without saying that too much negativity about it would put members of that group in a bit of a bind. Or as the loser-protagonist in "Married With Children" put it: "There's nothing wrong with a woman having sex with another woman - as long as there's a man watching."

That's not to imply actual tolerance for lesbianism among homophobes. Two women here in Missouri were denied an application to be foster parents last year, and took it to court. The court ruled that the reasons for their being denied - their sexual orientation - were irrelevant to the welfare of the children and our homophobic State district attorney is still in a snit about that. The prejudice against lesbians is more subtle.

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #29 on: September 06, 2006, 11:14:36 am »
This is the crux of the differentce between the story and the film.  In the book, Ennis is much more open with himself about his physical and emotional love for Jack.    There's the quote you gave about his physical attraction, and there's another passage in which he tells Jack about getting sick by the side of the road, and realizing that he was sick because (paraphrasing) "I should never let you out of my sights."

In general, the Annie's story shows that Ennis is closed and reserved and shy around everyone but Jack.  When he's with Jack, he opens up, relaxes, and can even get quite chatty.

This is the question I'm dying to ask Lee, McMurtry, and Ossana:  why was this trait of Ennis not carried over to the movie's screenplay?

Never heard any of them give an explanation; but my guess would be that it set up more dramatic inner conflcts.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #30 on: September 06, 2006, 01:01:58 pm »
Agreed. Jack is very obviously a homosexual man who, in my opinion, is fairly in touch with that aspect of himself throughout the story.

Yeah. Either that, or Jack fell in love with Ennis pretty much the second his foot hit the pavement outside Aguirre's trailer. And then later, he fell in love with a Mexican prostitute.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #31 on: September 06, 2006, 10:52:10 pm »
Well, in some ancient cultures it was acceptable for married women to have affairs with other women but not with men, because then their childrens' paternity wouldn't be in doubt. Today, in most cultures, it has to do with power.

Plenty of people have expressed better than me why so many heterosexual men feel threatened by the idea of men having sexual attachments to other men. However, in the case of women the dominant group finds lesbian action a turn-on so it goes without saying that too much negativity about it would put members of that group in a bit of a bind. Or as the loser-protagonist in "Married With Children" put it: "There's nothing wrong with a woman having sex with another woman - as long as there's a man watching."

That's not to imply actual tolerance for lesbianism among homophobes. Two women here in Missouri were denied an application to be foster parents last year, and took it to court. The court ruled that the reasons for their being denied - their sexual orientation - were irrelevant to the welfare of the children and our homophobic State district attorney is still in a snit about that. The prejudice against lesbians is more subtle.

How fun to see this old thread revived! 

Well, I can't help myself from commenting a bit on this post.  As one of the few, long-term lesbian residents of BetterMost, it's interesting to see this issue come up a bit.  I guess all I want to add (and I'm sure a bit of this is implicit in what you wrote originally... I just feel like elaborating) is that there's a vast difference between straight male fantasies of woman-on-woman action (of the sort you mention, a la Married With Children and countless other pop culture references such as Howard Stern, etc. and porn, etc.) and the true threat/ fear that real and actual lesbianism brings out culturally... which is the fear of women being completely independent of men in terms of being self-sufficient in terms of supporting ourselves AND EVEN sexually (this is not to say that friendship with men, etc. aren't constantly factors in a gay woman's life).  This extreme independence flies in the face of so many cultural paradigms it's wonderful an almost funny.  This anxiety about what true lesbianism means seems to come out when people (some straight men, some straight women, etc.) act like they don't understand how two women can really have sex.  That, almost willful act of not-understanding reveals every aspect of cultural insecurity as far as I'm concerned.




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Offline bbm_stitchbuffyfan

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #32 on: September 06, 2006, 11:19:28 pm »
I think Ennis opened up around Jack. That's what I gathered out of the first act of the movie, how Jack sort of reels Ennis out of his shell and they mutually feel comfortable around each other.

I think Ennis was too in love with Jack to really look at another man, or person, for that matter. It's blatant that Alma and Cassie didn't mean much romantically to him. I think Jack, when Ennis hurt him so badly, tried to ease the pain through other people but found it useless.

How Ennis is only attracted to Jack, only comes alive around Jack, speaks beautiful volumes about their relationship, I think.
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Offline Penthesilea

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #33 on: September 07, 2006, 06:43:08 am »
Quote
From Marge:
Well, in some ancient cultures it was acceptable for married women to have affairs with other women but not with men, because then their childrens' paternity wouldn't be in doubt. Today, in most cultures, it has to do with power.

Plenty of people have expressed better than me why so many heterosexual men feel threatened by the idea of men having sexual attachments to other men. However, in the case of women the dominant group finds lesbian action a turn-on so it goes without saying that too much negativity about it would put members of that group in a bit of a bind. Or as the loser-protagonist in "Married With Children" put it: "There's nothing wrong with a woman having sex with another woman - as long as there's a man watching."

There's another aspect to why love between two women is not as "threatening" as the love between two men. It has it's roots in the genreal historic disregard/disdain towards women. Until the age of enlightenment women were not regarded as full-fletched human beings. And the believe that women do not have a sexuality, are therefore not sexual beings, lasted even longer.
Remains of that believe are still around these days. They show for example in sentences like "Such a thing like lesbians do not exist; there are only women who didn't find the RIGHT man yet."(*arrrgh*) Or, even more scorning, "They just need to be f*cked really good and hard" ( >:( *more arrrgh*)

So ironically the genreal disdain towards women led to less hatred towards lesbian women in comparison to gay men.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2006, 06:45:34 am by Penthesilea »

moremojo

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #34 on: September 07, 2006, 10:22:32 am »
So ironically the genreal disdain towards women led to less hatred towards lesbian women in comparison to gay men.
I think your analysis is spot-on, and it reminds me of how much of the homophobia directed towards gay men is often tinged with more than a touch of misogyny. It is a common misunderstanding, now receding but still fairly widespread, that gay men are men who are behaving like women, or who want to be women. The unspoken rebuke here is that these men are forsaking their God-given birthright and mimicking the position (in every sense of the word) of "lowly" women. People often don't articulate their homophobia in such plain terms, but I definitely think this is an element common in that prejudice. And this is one reason it saddens me to see women exhibit homophobia--they are aligning themselves, no doubt unwittingly, with the agents of their own oppression.

Offline Aussie Chris

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #35 on: September 08, 2006, 08:41:20 am »
Gasp, it looks like I'm weeks behind in checking the important threads, appologies for my tardiness in replying, and with several specific nods in my direction and all, how terribly rude of me.

I agree with you Chris, because I almost had similar personal experience before.  If we want to use labels, then I'm 100% gay.  If we don't want to use labels, then I'm 100% attracted to men only, emotionally and physically.  But at one point in my life, I contemplated marrying a women just to please my parents and my conservative sub culture.  I believe Jack and Ennis were both "gay" by nature and "straight" by nurture, and were in a similar situation as I was.  They just took it a step further by marrying while I didn't.  The only thing that stopped me from marrying then was that I didn't want to ruin another person's life by eventually not loving her, and watching this movie reinforces that.

I'm glad you agree JT, where were you when I needed you in March?  ;)  This was a funny time, weird that it was just 6 months ago, seriously it feels like years have gone by.  I guess this was inevitable, after all we've really explored just about every nook and cranny of the film and the story, and so much water has passed under the bridge...

Did Jake really say that? If so, there's one more reason not to take comments made in interviews with the stars/director/screenwriters/etc. as gospel. I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous. (But who knows in what context he might have said that, or whether it was misinterpreted by the interviewer or what. Again, reason not to take interviews as gospel.)

Unfortunately yes Katherine and this bothered me for quite a while, but I've forgiven him his lapse of judgement.  Actually I've come to believe that both Jack and Heath were "advised" to take the straight line during promotional interviews.  Just about all advertising and promotional spots tried to lessen, disguise, or flat-out contradict the gay themes in the story.  It was a confusing time for me and I found myself actually doubting what the story was about.  If it wasn't for our discussions here I might have been convinced that it was about two straight men that just happened to fall in love.  And we though excessive political correctness was something to worry about, but I worry a lot more about the evils of spin.

Plenty of people have expressed better than me why so many heterosexual men feel threatened by the idea of men having sexual attachments to other men. However, in the case of women the dominant group finds lesbian action a turn-on so it goes without saying that too much negativity about it would put members of that group in a bit of a bind. Or as the loser-protagonist in "Married With Children" put it: "There's nothing wrong with a woman having sex with another woman - as long as there's a man watching."

Hi there Marge_Innavera, so tell me, who is this dominant group?  Do you mean straight men?  Can they really be considered dominant?  Strange, I always saw them as victims of their own narrow minds.

Quote
That's not to imply actual tolerance for lesbianism among homophobes. Two women here in Missouri were denied an application to be foster parents last year, and took it to court. The court ruled that the reasons for their being denied - their sexual orientation - were irrelevant to the welfare of the children and our homophobic State district attorney is still in a snit about that. The prejudice against lesbians is more subtle.

Is this really an example of intollerence, or a victory of equality?  I think in some ways lesbians enjoy more acceptance than gay men.  I'm happy to be argued with, but I ask you, would the adoption outcome above been the same if it were two men???

Amanda?  What do you think?
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #36 on: September 08, 2006, 09:49:54 am »
I'm happy to be argued with, but I ask you, would the adoption outcome above been the same if it were two men???

Not to jump ahead of Amanda, or anyone else who might be prepared to answer this question, but I'd like to throw in the fact that there would be an additional prejudice at work in the two-men situation: the idea that men aren't "naturally" as well equipped to care for children as women are.

Though of course gay couples of both genders adopt kids pretty frequently, right? So I guess I don't fully understand why sexual orientation was an obstacle in Missouri.

Offline Aussie Chris

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #37 on: September 08, 2006, 10:05:42 am »
So I guess I don't fully understand why sexual orientation was an obstacle in Missouri.

That's pretty much what I was thinking also Katherine.  It's depressing to think that even if we manage to scrape together some equality between the sexes and the sexual orientations, the minute we turm our backs the dickheads try to put things back the way they were.  I mean, really!  You can just see the person that tried to deny the adoption in the first place saying: "What? Who me? They never. Well no one told me".
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #38 on: September 08, 2006, 11:45:28 am »
And the believe that women do not have a sexuality, are therefore not sexual beings, lasted even longer.

Except, of course, and maybe at the same time, in Judeo-Christian tradition, women were regarded as sexual beings, and they were felt to be unable to control their sexuality (as if men could control theirs--Ha!), and their sexuality was regarded as evil and necessary to be controlled by outside forces (male forces).

It's the whole "Eve corrupted Adam" business.
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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #39 on: September 08, 2006, 11:51:47 am »
Except, of course, and maybe at the same time, in Judeo-Christian tradition, women were regarded as sexual beings, and they were felt to be unable to control their sexuality (as if men could control theirs--Ha!), and their sexuality was regarded as evil and necessary to be controlled by outside forces (male forces).

It's the whole "Eve corrupted Adam" business.
Women's sexuality has historically received much emphasis in classical Indian civilization. Literature in both the Hindu and Buddhist traditions highlight women as sexual beings, sometimes presenting them as voracious almost to the point of parody. Buddhism, with its emphasis on detachment, often presents this motif in a negative light. But whether seen positively or negatively, sexuality is seen as natural, for both sexes--an interesting counterpoint to the often schizoid attitudes towards sexuality we have inherited in the West.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #40 on: September 08, 2006, 09:44:26 pm »
Is this really an example of intollerence, or a victory of equality?  I think in some ways lesbians enjoy more acceptance than gay men.  I'm happy to be argued with, but I ask you, would the adoption outcome above been the same if it were two men???

Amanda?  What do you think?

Heya,

I don't believe for a minute that lesbians are more accepted than gay men.  Cultural attitudes and the kinds of homophobia leveled at men vs. women might be different but I truly don't believe there's more acceptance for lesbians (real lesbians I mean - refering to my post above... very different from horrible fantasy-lesbians... the product of a special and very nuanced form of homophobia).  Years ago I was in a coming out support group for women only and our group leader used to talk about the issue of "compounded oppressions."  This led to discussions of what it means as an individual to deal with all the misogyny that any and all women need to deal with combined with homophobia.  And then this can be expanded if one happens to be of a different ethnic group, religion, etc.  No.  There's nothing easy about being a gay woman.  I still wouldn't trade it for anything though.  It's amazing how powerful all of this can be... the sense of oppression and the determination to not let it get you down... 

For me the dominant concern is usually the misogyny first and then the homophobia.  The two are very much interconnected for lesbians, but in lots of ways I find the misogyny to be much more degrading, horrible, infuriating and ever-present.  I can go about my day to day life without many people guessing I'm a lesbian, but I always have to deal with the prejudices that all women face.  This is just my take on the situation.  I'm sure every lesbian would have different and personalized responses to this question.

I have no real knowledge or opinion on the specific issue of adoption that would be different or more informed than any of you.  I haven't really thought too much about it since it hasn't been an issue in my life or in my friends lives (yet).

 :-\
« Last Edit: September 08, 2006, 09:51:21 pm by atz75 »
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Offline alec716

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #41 on: September 08, 2006, 09:52:33 pm »
This anxiety about what true lesbianism means seems to come out when people (some straight men, some straight women, etc.) act like they don't understand how two women can really have sex.  That, almost willful act of not-understanding reveals every aspect of cultural insecurity as far as I'm concerned.


Amanda, I very much like your phrasing here -- "almost willful act(s) of not understanding" provide the fertile soil for so very many acts of biogtry, IMHO.  Thanks for pinpointing this link in the chain of intolerance. 

(note:  I tried putting square brackets around the "s" in "acts" to be all grammatically proper and ever'thing, but the forum software ended up putting a strike line through the rest of my text!  Not that people do not occasionally want to strike out what I say, but that's another story.  ;)  )
« Last Edit: September 08, 2006, 10:05:12 pm by alec716 »
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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #42 on: September 19, 2006, 02:14:20 am »
I am only what, six months behind, lol.  It's taken me about that long to get up enough nerve to post on forums.  I've read every post of this thread tonight and some excellent ones.  I agree with lots, disagree with some but have sure learned a heap.
I do not like labels and will not, don't even know if it's possible, to label Jack and Ennis.  I know they only truly loved one person in their lives and that was each other. 
The only post that bothered me a little was doubting Jake's sincerity, but everyone is welcomed to their opinions. I don't think he would lie for Focus after taking on that role, just doesn't seem in his character.  I heard an interview where he said nearly those exact words. 
They both enjoyed being with women, functioned fine with females, but their heart and soul didn't belong to those ladies. If they had never met could they have loved their wives and been happy, sexually and emotionally, I don't think we can know the answer to that.  I'd bet my pony though that Ennis would never have had an ounce of attraction to a man if he had never known Jack.
And I feel all alone, missed so much, too late for the party.

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Offline Aussie Chris

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #43 on: September 19, 2006, 05:16:13 am »
I am only what, six months behind, lol.  It's taken me about that long to get up enough nerve to post on forums.  I've read every post of this thread tonight and some excellent ones.  I agree with lots, disagree with some but have sure learned a heap.

Hi Jessi, congratulations on taking the plunge!  Well differences of opinion are part of what makes BetterMostians such and interesting group to be around.  I don't think anyone was seriously accusing Jake of being insincere, or at least I wasn't, but I think I can safely accuse him of being a straight man who is just as susceptible to fear as the rest of us.  Waaaay back in the beginning, no one knew if BbM was going to be accepted by the public or would turn into a C.E.M. (career ending move) for everyone involved.  I completely understand that both Jake and Heath had to walk a fine line when being interviewed and describing the characters and their motivations.  But there's no doubt that Focus decided to promote BbM with stills that only showed the men separately or on horseback or with the women.  They too (Focus) didn't know how the film would be accepted so they went with what they knew and that's to be conservative with the gay issues and themes.  For GLBT folk who constantly struggle with being accepted and/or the "covering" that comes with intolerance, any consolation or condition on the themes could be at best disappointing and at worst a betrayal.  These are not pleasant thoughts however, so I simply keep reminding myself that we're all only human and just let them go, or simply go and watch BbM again and bask in the truth that lies in the performances.
Nothing is as common as the wish to be remarkable - William Shakespeare

Offline serious crayons

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #44 on: September 19, 2006, 09:24:26 am »
For GLBT folk who constantly struggle with being accepted and/or the "covering" that comes with intolerance, any consolation or condition on the themes could be at best disappointing and at worst a betrayal.  These are not pleasant thoughts however, so I simply keep reminding myself that we're all only human and just let them go, or simply go and watch BbM again and bask in the truth that lies in the performances.

That's a good attitude, Chris. I completely understand what you mean about it feeling disappointing or like a betrayal. I think a good way to look at it is to keep in mind that Focus made the movie -- one that a lot of studios apparently wouldn't take on. And that if their marketing methods were questionable, their hearts probably were in the right place: they wanted the movie to draw the widest possible audience, and they felt that was the way to do it. I don't know if they were correct about that or not, but if so the blame mainly lies with the audience rather than the filmmakers. And the more people who see the film and can appreciate it, the less studios would have to rely on those tactics, hopefully, in the future.

Offline jessiwrite

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #45 on: September 19, 2006, 12:51:39 pm »
I know Focus had pushed what they thought would sell, Ang lee tried to down play gay sex (I don't know a better term, sorry) in the movie and was in line with Focus in the ads.  I do believe the statemens the actors made were their own, whether it be about kissing or the character's sexuality.  It was to them, and many more, first and foremost about the love the characters had for each other and sex being part of the love.
Jack did like women, and I saw lots of evidence of that, lots of it from waving to the girls in the stand to dancing with LaSHawn, the movie Jack may have been on that scale much more straight than even bi.  The book Jack liked men more, I think, but still could enjoy being with a woman.  Jake was playing the movie Jack, and there is a pretty big differecne in the two characters, from buck teeth, small frame to being gay or straight.  Jake played the character straight, a man who fell in love with a man.  He didn't go all the way to Mexico for sexual relief.  Ang Lee directed him as gay, he believed Jack to be gay and he saiid he got the performance he wanted. Jake's Jack came through, to me, more clearly as Ang's. 

jessi
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My man who nothin ever came t’is hand the way he wanted.
‘Cause all he ever wanted was me.

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #46 on: September 19, 2006, 01:25:56 pm »
I just feel like elaborating) is that there's a vast difference between straight male fantasies of woman-on-woman action (of the sort you mention, a la Married With Children and countless other pop culture references such as Howard Stern, etc. and porn, etc.) and the true threat/ fear that real and actual lesbianism brings out culturally... which is the fear of women being completely independent of men in terms of being self-sufficient in terms of supporting ourselves AND EVEN sexually

You bet. That's why the Al Bundys of the world find lesbian sex acceptable "as long as there's a man watching" - it's still in that comfortable (to them) familiar context of a man being involved and getting sexual satisfaction out of it.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #47 on: September 19, 2006, 01:33:43 pm »
Ang lee tried to down play gay sex (I don't know a better term, sorry) in the movie

Do you mean Ang did this in marketing or in the actual movie? In the movie, and I guess this is all in the eye of the beholder, I think he played it up fairly well. Half an hour in, there's a semi-explicit sex scene. The scene doesn't shift to the outside of the tent or anything coy. It was like, take it or leave it, this is what the movie's about.

What he did in interviews or marketing I'm not as familiar with.

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He didn't go all the way to Mexico for sexual relief. 

I'm curious, what do you feel he did go to Mexico for, Jessi?

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #48 on: September 19, 2006, 01:34:53 pm »
Hi there Marge_Innavera, so tell me, who is this dominant group?  Do you mean straight men?  Can they really be considered dominant?  Strange, I always saw them as victims of their own narrow minds.

It might be that straight heterosexual men aren't the dominant group; that is, if you live on another planet.  My statement was not ambiguous.

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Is this really an example of intollerence, or a victory of equality?
 

I tend to agree with some of the other posters who replied; that there's somewhat more tolerance but that this is rooted in the perception of women, and by extension their sexuality, as being of lesser importance.

Quote
  I'm happy to be argued with, but I ask you, would the adoption outcome above been the same if it were two men???

In this case it would have, as the legal basis was the nullifying of anti-sodomy laws that were still on the books; and added to that the specific standards for foster parents. But in terms of PR it might have been fortunate that this case, a landmark one for my state, involved two women.

The Attorney General's office in Missouri did a lot of stamping and peeing on trees following that decision, one spokesperson even saying that they were going to insist that the childrens' parents have the right to object to their children being fostered by gays. A representative of the State department of families and children wrote a very sharp rebuke to that in the Kansas City Star, pointing out that in the vast majority of cases children are being fostered because the parents are a threat to the child's health, safety and welfare.  They were not, consequently, going to have any say in what foster homes their children would go to.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2006, 01:37:34 pm by Marge_Innavera »

Offline jessiwrite

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #49 on: September 19, 2006, 02:00:18 pm »
Do you mean Ang did this in marketing or in the actual movie? In the movie, and I guess this is all in the eye of the beholder, I think he played it up fairly well. Half an hour in, there's a semi-explicit sex scene. The scene doesn't shift to the outside of the tent or anything coy. It was like, take it or leave it, this is what the movie's about.

What he did in interviews or marketing I'm not as familiar with.

I'm curious, what do you feel he did go to Mexico for, Jessi?

I think he and Focus made sure they were in line with each other. I think he gave us no more then he thought he must, concernting the m/m sex, and made sure he added m/f sex enough to perhaps ease more people.  After the reunion we have to really use our imaginations or sump'in, to feel they had sex.  In the book, last time together, she makes it clear they had sex and it was still passionate, in the movie they are far enough apart in front of that fire to have to reach an arm's length to take the pot and in the tent there are no signs of anything other than quietly going to sleep.  The arm over shoulder lets me know Ennis is fond of him, but sure no sparks except in my head.
It isn't just about two boys/young men being in love and hot for each other, it covers many more years and I feel, by so downplaying the sex, he took a lot away from their relationship.


I think Jack went to Mexico because he had a brokenheart, loss hope and been cruely rejected.  If it had been Ennis he'd probably pounded his hand into the dashboard, gone to a bar and try to give pain to get lots of pain.  Going to that hooker was probably much more painful for Jack, how it must of hurt.  And yeah, some spite in it too I bet, but I don't think it was for the sex.

It is a joy to be discussing Jack and Ennis, a pure joy.  All this is purely my thoughts, I tend to get passionate with these boys, please I never mean any disrespect to anyone, ever.

jessi


... not nobody when in somebody's arms,  ain’t nowhere if somewhere with him.
My man who nothin ever came t’is hand the way he wanted.
‘Cause all he ever wanted was me.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #50 on: September 19, 2006, 04:30:43 pm »
I think he and Focus made sure they were in line with each other. I think he gave us no more then he thought he must, concernting the m/m sex, and made sure he added m/f sex enough to perhaps ease more people.  After the reunion we have to really use our imaginations or sump'in, to feel they had sex.

I have sometimes wondered if a fear of turning off straight viewers might have contributed to his downplaying of sex in the second half. But personally, even if it was a factor I don't think it's the main reason. I think anyone who made it through the first half could probably handle a little more in the second half. And IMO his main objective for that restraint was to emphasize the "never enough time" theme. By withholding scenes of physical affection, I think he intended to help the audience feel Jack & Ennis' frustration. If you ask me, it worked a little too well!

Offline jessiwrite

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #51 on: September 19, 2006, 04:46:31 pm »
I have sometimes wondered if a fear of turning off straight viewers might have contributed to his downplaying of sex in the second half. But personally, even if it was a factor I don't think it's the main reason. I think anyone who made it through the first half could probably handle a little more in the second half. And IMO his main objective for that restraint was to emphasize the "never enough time" theme. By withholding scenes of physical affection, I think he intended to help the audience feel Jack & Ennis' frustration. If you ask me, it worked a little too well!

I never thought of that, or heard it mention.  Something to ponder.  It made little impact on me, I mean making such a difference in the book and movie, the book making sure we knew they had good sex still,  for I surely felt the not enough time in the book as well as the movie, strong enough that it still feels like a kick in the gut.  I feel the not enough time was referring to far more than the sex.  I am glad I have the book to read about their infrequent coupling and how intense it still was.  Their need and love for each other would destroy or give them life.

jessi
... not nobody when in somebody's arms,  ain’t nowhere if somewhere with him.
My man who nothin ever came t’is hand the way he wanted.
‘Cause all he ever wanted was me.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #52 on: September 19, 2006, 05:46:42 pm »
I think the book and movie take different strategies because they have to tell their tale in different ways. In the book, the narrator can just say outright "the brilliant charge of their infrquent couplings was darkened by the sense of time flying, never enough time, never enough." Or the narrator can mention that the clock in Ennis' pocket was ticking to symbolize passing time. Or whatever. In the movie, there's no narrator, so that information has to be conveyed by dialogue, symbolism or some other way. So the screenplay has Jack say "never enough time" in the lakeside argument. And I think this is another way the filmmakers chose to emphasize it.


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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #53 on: September 19, 2006, 06:07:44 pm »
I think the book and movie take different strategies because they have to tell their tale in different ways. In the book, the narrator can just say outright "the brilliant charge of their infrquent couplings was darkened by the sense of time flying, never enough time, never enough." Or the narrator can mention that the clock in Ennis' pocket was ticking to symbolize passing time. Or whatever. In the movie, there's no narrator, so that information has to be conveyed by dialogue, symbolism or some other way. So the screenplay has Jack say "never enough time" in the lakeside argument. And I think this is another way the filmmakers chose to emphasize it.



Sadly, the movie may have just sent half the message, the not enough time.  The movie didn't let us know about the brilliant charge still beomng there.  Even a tease with Jack reaching his cold hand between Ennis' thighs or a passionate kiss, a bit of sex in the tent, something to let the viewers know that the spark was there and still importantl.  I am so glad we at least saw them sleeping together, however briefly.

jessi
... not nobody when in somebody's arms,  ain’t nowhere if somewhere with him.
My man who nothin ever came t’is hand the way he wanted.
‘Cause all he ever wanted was me.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #54 on: September 19, 2006, 06:09:40 pm »
Even a tease with Jack reaching his cold hand between Ennis' thighs or a passionate kiss, a bit of sex in the tent, something to let the viewers know that the spark was there and still importantl.  I am so glad we at least saw them sleeping together, however briefly.

I totally agree!  :-\

Offline Aussie Chris

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #55 on: September 20, 2006, 09:37:24 am »
It might be that straight heterosexual men aren't the dominant group; that is, if you live on another planet.  My statement was not ambiguous.

Ouch, ok as you wish.  That would be the end of that conversation then.  But before I go, maybe I do live on another planet, one where no gender or orientation is more dominant except to the extent that the "other" groups let them.  You can oppress me and be intollerant of me, but you can't make me feel inferior unless I let you, and that's not going to happen.  And btw, you're reference to dominant group could just as easily been all straight people (male and female), law makers, politicians, etc.  Women are not the inferior group here, in fact I feel more marginalised every day.
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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #56 on: September 20, 2006, 09:41:42 am »
in fact I feel more marginalised every day.

 ???

Offline serious crayons

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #57 on: September 20, 2006, 02:15:12 pm »
Quote
Quote from: Marge_Innavera on September 19, 2006, 12:34:53 pm
It might be that straight heterosexual men aren't the dominant group; that is, if you live on another planet.  My statement was not ambiguous.

  But before I go, maybe I do live on another planet, one where no gender or orientation is more dominant except to the extent that the "other" groups let them.  You can oppress me and be intollerant of me, but you can't make me feel inferior unless I let you, and that's not going to happen.  And btw, you're reference to dominant group could just as easily been all straight people (male and female), law makers, politicians, etc.  Women are not the inferior group here, in fact I feel more marginalised every day.

Chris and Marge, as an outside observer to this exchange, I'm wondering if you might not disagree as much as it seems. Do you mind if I give a shot to sorting it out?

Chris, I could be wrong, but my impression is that Marge is not endorsing the idea that straight men should be the dominant goup, or even that they inevitably must be the dominant group, but merely expressing what she feels to have been historical practice in most cultures. Marge, again I may be wrong, but my impression is that Chris is saying we should not accept that as an immutable reality, and that we have it in our power to change it.

In other words, it seems Marge is referring to an unfortunate current situation, whereas Chris is referring to a happy ideal.

Do you think you'd agree with those assessments -- of both your own position and each others'? Or am I mischaracterizing them?
« Last Edit: September 20, 2006, 07:00:57 pm by latjoreme »

Offline JT

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #58 on: September 26, 2006, 02:40:23 am »
Quote
I'm glad you agree JT, where were you when I needed you in March?    This was a funny time, weird that it was just 6 months ago, seriously it feels like years have gone by.  I guess this was inevitable, after all we've really explored just about every nook and cranny of the film and the story, and so much water has passed under the bridge...

Sorry Chris, but in March, I haven't even watched BBM yet.  Yeah, shame on me.  I only discover this site about two months ago.

But back to what you guys discuss back then, all I can say is those of us who had to live lives similar to Jack and Ennis' will understand more deeply their motives and orientations.  Being gay and living in a conservative environment, I understand these two guys pretty well, I think.  Being in my mid 30's now, I still haven't been in a gay relationship, nor a straight one.  I know I don't want a straight one for sure.  Just my thought.

Offline Aussie Chris

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #59 on: September 26, 2006, 10:13:25 am »
Sorry Chris, but in March, I haven't even watched BBM yet.  Yeah, shame on me.  I only discover this site about two months ago.

No worries JT, I gathered as much.  I was only playing after all. ;)

Quote
But back to what you guys discuss back then, all I can say is those of us who had to live lives similar to Jack and Ennis' will understand more deeply their motives and orientations.  Being gay and living in a conservative environment, I understand these two guys pretty well, I think.  Being in my mid 30's now, I still haven't been in a gay relationship, nor a straight one.  I know I don't want a straight one for sure.  Just my thought.

Aww, sometimes I wish we were all in the same room so I could give people a hug when they say something like that.  You know I don't think it matters if you've had a hundred partners or none at all, as long as you have love in your heart and you're happy with being yourself.  I've not had a relationship for a couple of years and I couldn't give a rat's.  Maybe I'm a romantic fool but I believe that someone special is out there waiting for me to find him, and even if there's not I'm happy being me and that's enough.  I hope that you're happy too JT.
Nothing is as common as the wish to be remarkable - William Shakespeare

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #60 on: September 29, 2006, 01:52:08 am »
No worries JT, I gathered as much.  I was only playing after all. ;)

Aww, sometimes I wish we were all in the same room so I could give people a hug when they say something like that.  You know I don't think it matters if you've had a hundred partners or none at all, as long as you have love in your heart and you're happy with being yourself.  I've not had a relationship for a couple of years and I couldn't give a rat's.  Maybe I'm a romantic fool but I believe that someone special is out there waiting for me to find him, and even if there's not I'm happy being me and that's enough.  I hope that you're happy too JT.
       



Chris I couldn't agree with you more.  I think the most important thing is to have love in your heart and just be happy being yourself.  That really works for me and as the years have passed I can see it clearly now.  I haven't had a relationship that was seriously intense in twenty two years and I am not really looking for one but like you said I think one will come along some day but I am not looking for it as I am comfortable with myself right now.  You have put into words the things I feel in my heart.   



Offline JT

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #61 on: October 02, 2006, 05:40:24 pm »
No worries JT, I gathered as much.  I was only playing after all. ;)

Aww, sometimes I wish we were all in the same room so I could give people a hug when they say something like that.  You know I don't think it matters if you've had a hundred partners or none at all, as long as you have love in your heart and you're happy with being yourself.  I've not had a relationship for a couple of years and I couldn't give a rat's.  Maybe I'm a romantic fool but I believe that someone special is out there waiting for me to find him, and even if there's not I'm happy being me and that's enough.  I hope that you're happy too JT.

Well I'm glad you're happy with yourself, Chris.  I am happy the way I am too.  I'm a romantic also.  lol  I believe there's a Jack some where out there for me even if his name is not Jack.  But for now, it's all right.

Bucky, I'm glad you share this sentiment also.  Looks like your doing fine too.  Lets all have an internet group hug.  lol

Offline Aussie Chris

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #62 on: October 02, 2006, 05:43:40 pm »
((((((((((( HUGS )))))))))))
Nothing is as common as the wish to be remarkable - William Shakespeare

Offline JT

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #63 on: October 02, 2006, 05:52:32 pm »
((((((Group Hug)))))))) lol

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #64 on: October 02, 2006, 06:22:16 pm »
(((((((BETTERMOST GROUP HUG)))))))

 :)
Scott

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #65 on: October 02, 2006, 06:31:00 pm »
This reminds me of my June 11 Bettermost dream. See if you agree:

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php?topic=2397.msg41250#msg41250

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #66 on: October 02, 2006, 06:37:24 pm »
This reminds me of my June 11 Bettermost dream. See if you agree:

Cool, bugs can't hurt us while we hug!  Thanks Lee.
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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #67 on: October 02, 2006, 06:38:33 pm »
Your dream does seem serendipitous, Lee! Hugs were our salvation there, and what some of us seem to be craving at the moment. I have had the honor and pleasure to hug three of my fellow Brokies and BetterMostians, but not nearly enough...never enough...

By the way, I had a bittersweet dream this weekend of Alma Jr.'s wedding. Ennis was in attendance there, but he was a sad figure, with the hopes and virility of youth well behind him. The spark of happiness had passed onto Junior, who looked into the future with bright countenance. Ennis receded into the background, like a gray ghost.

Offline JT

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #68 on: October 02, 2006, 07:35:34 pm »
Quote
Your dream does seem serendipitous, Lee! Hugs were our salvation there, and what some of us seem to be craving at the moment. I have had the honor and pleasure to hug three of my fellow Brokies and BetterMostians, but not nearly enough...never enough...

I think many people lack hugging even touching in general.  In today's world we hardly get to hug or touch another person, especially men.  So I think hugging is very therapeutic in many ways.  Jack and Ennis definately lacks touching, so when they touch, sparks seem to fly.  They seem so at peace when they can freely touch or hug each other.  It's wonderful to have this cyber group hug.  lol

Quote
By the way, I had a bittersweet dream this weekend of Alma Jr.'s wedding. Ennis was in attendance there, but he was a sad figure, with the hopes and virility of youth well behind him. The spark of happiness had passed onto Junior, who looked into the future with bright countenance. Ennis receded into the background, like a gray ghost.

It is as you say, "bittersweet" but still kind of sad.  Ennis is happy for his daughter but he will always think of Jack and regrets about the outcome of his relationship with Jack.  In the movie, we see him happy when Alma Jr. said she's gonna get married, but when she leaves, Ennis thinks of Jack again when he sees the two shirts.  Your dream seems like an extention of that scene.  It's amazing that you dreamt about that.  That's exactly how I would imagine when Ennis attends Jr.'s wedding.  He'll be there for her so that she could see him, but remains in the background as to avoid other people, especially his ex.

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #69 on: October 02, 2006, 07:59:14 pm »
It is as you say, "bittersweet" but still kind of sad.  Ennis is happy for his daughter but he will always think of Jack and regrets about the outcome of his relationship with Jack.  In the movie, we see him happy when Alma Jr. said she's gonna get married, but when she leaves, Ennis thinks of Jack again when he sees the two shirts.  Your dream seems like an extention of that scene.  It's amazing that you dreamt about that.  That's exactly how I would imagine when Ennis attends Jr.'s wedding.  He'll be there for her so that she could see him, but remains in the background as to avoid other people, especially his ex.
I don't remember dreaming about Jack and Ennis in many months, and I think this was the first "Brokeback" dream of mine in which another character was given prominence. I remember seeing Ennis with the shirts before the scene changed to Alma Jr. standing at the altar--Kurt remained a shadowy, indistinct figure in my mind's eye. There was a song playing in accompaniment to my dream, but for the life of me, I can't remember it. I should have written my dream down; like so many dream details, that element evaporated soon after I had awoken. What I most clearly recall is the expression of quiet, confident happiness on Junior's face.

Offline JT

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #70 on: October 02, 2006, 08:08:08 pm »
Scott, that is so cool!  I can't remember if I ever had a Brokeback dream yet or not, but I dreamt about the actors before.

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #71 on: October 03, 2006, 05:14:47 pm »
I think many people lack hugging even touching in general.  In today's world we hardly get to hug or touch another person, especially men.  So I think hugging is very therapeutic in many ways.  Jack and Ennis definately lacks touching, so when they touch, sparks seem to fly.  They seem so at peace when they can freely touch or hug each other.  It's wonderful to have this cyber group hug.  lol

I am a very affectionate person.  I do have to be careful sometimes.  Some people do not like to be touched.  I think that is so sad.  To me there is nothing more comforting and loving than a gentle pat or hand on your arm.  My son calls them "love pats".  One of the only men that works for me just found out his wife has cancer.  While talking to me he was crying.  I just automatically hugged him.  I thought "Oh, God what have I done."  Well, he must have really needed it because he got me in a "hug lock" as my son says.  He said, I know I am a man and not supposed to show emotion.  I said, Oh, bull.  You are a husband that loves his wife and are devastated.  You have every right to cry and I have a million more hugs were those came from.  I am glad that God gave me love to share and a heart that is happy and always willing to love.  I hug my children so much.  I want them, especially my son to know it is okay to show your love and compassion for anyone.
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Offline JT

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #72 on: October 04, 2006, 02:57:24 pm »
I think many people lack hugging even touching in general.  In today's world we hardly get to hug or touch another person, especially men.  So I think hugging is very therapeutic in many ways.  Jack and Ennis definately lacks touching, so when they touch, sparks seem to fly.  They seem so at peace when they can freely touch or hug each other.  It's wonderful to have this cyber group hug.  lol

I am a very affectionate person.  I do have to be careful sometimes.  Some people do not like to be touched.  I think that is so sad.  To me there is nothing more comforting and loving than a gentle pat or hand on your arm.  My son calls them "love pats".  One of the only men that works for me just found out his wife has cancer.  While talking to me he was crying.  I just automatically hugged him.  I thought "Oh, God what have I done."  Well, he must have really needed it because he got me in a "hug lock" as my son says.  He said, I know I am a man and not supposed to show emotion.  I said, Oh, bull.  You are a husband that loves his wife and are devastated.  You have every right to cry and I have a million more hugs were those came from.  I am glad that God gave me love to share and a heart that is happy and always willing to love.  I hug my children so much.  I want them, especially my son to know it is okay to show your love and compassion for anyone.

You're absolutely right about that.  Very good point.  It's no wonder we all lack hugging because some people see it as sexual harassment and some just don't like it period.  Some people would cry "sexual harassment" when you just pat them on the shoulder.  That is why I only hug people that are very close to me and never at work unless they start hugging first.  I'm glad you're able to comfort him.

Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #73 on: October 04, 2006, 03:33:41 pm »
Two of my absolute favorite wordless moments in the movie are when Ennis embraces Jack in a hearty hug. THe first is in the reunion scene, natch, and the second is in the post-divorce scene. The sound effects--the whump--when they come together and the sheer magnetism of the two men are breathtaking!
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Offline silkncense

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #74 on: October 07, 2006, 07:45:29 am »
Couldn't agree more, Frontranger!  They show such pure joy in just seeing each other.  I love seeing people hug.  In many cultures it is automatic but not so much in the US - God forbid most men should hug.  What a shame.  At least they are moving forward with the handshake / shoulder bump / backslap kinda thing.  Come to think of it, I was rather raised that way - not a very huggy family but I make a point of hugging my sons lots!

When I met up w/ other Brokies in SF - I'd barely said "LJ" when Eric had me in a big bear hug.  Then hugs from all the rest.  How warm & welcoming.  The best sort of greeting.

And, studies have shown that babies don't thrive without hugs, holding & touching.  I wonder that humans in general suffer the same without it.
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Offline HerrKaiser

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #75 on: October 30, 2006, 06:47:22 pm »
I think many people lack hugging even touching in general.  In today's world we hardly get to hug or touch another person, especially men. 

Interesting observation and life experience; I am wondering what part of the country in which you live? When I started out in busijness in the 1970s, men and women only shook hands. Since about the early 90s, hugging by women after a few meetings became somewhat standard, and men now often hug as a greeting/goodbye in place of hand shakes, both business and, for sure, social.

Offline Momof2

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #76 on: October 30, 2006, 07:00:10 pm »
I live in the south.  Bible belt.  I think women are in "general" more affectionate.  Not always.  I work with several that would die if you touched them.  My husband is not an overly affectionate person.  Not to adults anyway.  With our children he is totally different.  I think he realizes that and does not want to instill that in our children.  Especially not our son.  He is only 4.  I want him to know it is ok to touch and kiss and SHOW affection.  My husband is all for it.  He told me one day, we can instill it now, but I promise in a few years it will disappear.  I know he means when he gets older.  I said I know but it is nice now and he will always have the foundation of love and affection.  I told him that later in life he would be able to look back and know what it is to show love. 

Touch is extremely healing.  In the physical and mental sense.  My son was premature and I held him so much because I wanted him to know me.  Sometimes all I need is a hug or little pat.  I do it sometimes to others to realize too late that maybe I shouldnt have.  I do not apologize, I just dont do it again. 

I am only 35 yo.  My mother calls me the the touchy feely going to heal the world person.  I just smile.  If only it were that simple.  I would have a callous from hugging so many people.
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Offline HerrKaiser

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #77 on: October 30, 2006, 07:40:02 pm »
What you say makes a great deal of sense and if it works for you, all the more reason to continue to make it work in your life.

for me, and perhaps many others, I am not the hugging type. i prefer to keep touching beyond a hearty hand shake reserved for more special encounters or more special people. and as such, I do not consider myself any less caring or affectionate. Same is true, for me, with "I love you". I think it's used far too much amongst non-loving situations and its impact gets watered down.

But, that's what makes the world go 'round!

In fact, one of the very few scenes in the film I thought to be unrealistic was Ennis and Jack hugging upon greeting after Ennis' divorce. This was 1977, middle of Wyoming, in front of his kids. No way. That kind of greeting truly only started among men toward the 90s, and then usually among the so-called urban sophisticates.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #78 on: November 01, 2006, 02:15:06 pm »
In fact, one of the very few scenes in the film I thought to be unrealistic was Ennis and Jack hugging upon greeting after Ennis' divorce. This was 1977, middle of Wyoming, in front of his kids. No way. That kind of greeting truly only started among men toward the 90s, and then usually among the so-called urban sophisticates.

Interesting point, Herr Kaiser! Hadn't thought of that. That's one anachronism I don't mind, though.

Back for a moment to regional touching differences. I'm from Minnesota, and when I lived in New Orleans in the early '90s, the hardest thing to get used to was kissing. Hugging I could handle, no problem. But kissing? Coworkers would kiss if they ran into each other at a movie theater. The only time a Minnesotan would ever kiss a coworker is if they got too drunk at the Christmas party.

I moved back to Minnesota after seven years and, in a way, it was a relief. But then again, I kind of missed it. I notice people are starting to do more kissing here now.


Offline HerrKaiser

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #79 on: November 01, 2006, 04:41:41 pm »
Moving a tad off hugging....another thread had a post whose writer said he expected Ennis to meet another man and develop a new relationship.

I don't see that in ennis at all. He is a quintessential one man man. His relationship with Jack is not primarily about sex; in fact, as noted in other posts, Ennis had a warmth and caring disposition toward Jack before the sex ever started, and it was clear Ennis was inwardly frustrated that Jack required the sex to make the relationship more complete.

Ennis is a swan. he moves like a swan. he acts like a swan. he lives like a swan. He'll die like a swan.

Offline JT

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #80 on: November 04, 2006, 02:10:45 pm »
I agree.  I don't see Ennis going with anyone else.  I belief Jack was his one and only man. 

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #81 on: November 13, 2006, 06:18:07 am »
One of the most wierd aspects of Ennis (the whole character that I see in myself and also, of all people, in my late FATHER!) is that he seems to be only attracted to ONE man.  I can't quite believe that there could exist such a person.  If he was a 'top', wouldn't he have enjoyed checking out the tight rears of the Riverton locals?  (I hate to stereocast him as a 'top' now, but when I came out at 19 in 1973 the lines were pretty "straight" forward.)

But (or BUTT if you prefer), Annie writes, "You know, I was sittin up here all that time tryin to figure out if I was --?  I know I ain't. I mean here we both got wives and kids, right? I like doin it with women, yeah, but ..., ain't nothin like this.  I never had no thoughts a doin it with another guy except I sure wrang it out a hunderd times thinkin about you.

Are any of you like that?  Or am I way out there?  Thanks for reading this!

This is the first thing i read here and yeah some of us are like that. When i found The Guy, I never wanted anybody else, ever. Sure you can look, but it doesn't mean much.... people look. My 86 year old aunt looks.

When that had to end, i never had sex with any male ever again. There was no point to it: just for the sex?? Who cared. I'm not gay however, I'm bisexual and suspected it from damned near puberty. For me it's not about the sex it's about the emotional attachment, the ability to connect with someone on the same level whether they are male or female. Any other guy would have been 'settling' and to hell with that.  Some people think being bisexual--really bisexual, not dabbling on the other side of whatever fence you're claiming--well, some think it's easier because you can choose from both.

It's not. It's harder. You aren't really accepted by gay or str8, each looks askance at you. Why? Because i think  most of the supposed people the world labels bi aren't...every really bi male I know says the same thing, that being bi isn't about the sex, it's about the ability to have an emotional attachment with someone of either sex, as deep with a man as it is with a woman and vice versa.

Now when we broke up i got set up on a date by a gay friend with a humongeous blonde blue-eyed known to be horse-hung FDNY God on a Harley. We ended up talking until dawn and are still friends. That was the date. I had no desire to have sex with a guy just for the sex. My BF, he was genuinely bi as well. He DID have sex. ONCE. He ended up puking in a park on the way home and never did it again either.   

Don't get me wrong, i've never cheated on anyone within a committed relationship, ever, but OUTSIDE of one I enjoyed myself. I liked the girls better then the guys--even though you had to work for sex with a woman -- because the guys were soooo full of shit emotionally: the girls, even the drama queens were more honest as a whole. The men?? the sex was comically easy, so outside of relationships I went with them, but insofar as having a male RELATIONSHIP>>>>??? Nope. I didn't find a BF until I was in my 30's. That was the one above. When it was over, no way I was goin a even bother trying because He Was the One.

Today we are the closest of friends because of Brokeback Mountain. He got married in the 4 years we didn't see each other even as friends, I'm getting married in January and he is Best Man. There is an intimacy between us which we both NEED, not want. But as for sex? Naw. It's someone else's turn for that. And I don't miss it at all, i have what I need from him as a bi male: the emotional underpinnings of the Dozy Embrace. i will venture to answer for him as well, and say he too has what he needs. Never found anything to disprove it or disbelieve what he's told me.
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Offline brokebackjack

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #82 on: November 13, 2006, 06:24:19 am »
Interesting point, Herr Kaiser! Hadn't thought of that. That's one anachronism I don't mind, though.

Back for a moment to regional touching differences. I'm from Minnesota, and when I lived in New Orleans in the early '90s, the hardest thing to get used to was kissing. Hugging I could handle, no problem. But kissing? Coworkers would kiss if they ran into each other at a movie theater. The only time a Minnesotan would ever kiss a coworker is if they got too drunk at the Christmas party.

I moved back to Minnesota after seven years and, in a way, it was a relief. But then again, I kind of missed it. I notice people are starting to do more kissing here now.


I didn't find it unrealistic at all, they were in the middle of nowhere. they chilled out in front of the girls, and iced up when the white pickup drove by.  But when they first hugged, was the most natural thing around, they'd been sleeping with each other for 10 years.
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Offline brokebackjack

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #83 on: November 13, 2006, 06:30:36 am »
Re affection in general--regional and ethnic differences matter a lot. Just as the member from NO/Minn said. I was born in NY to an Italian mother to an irish father, there was always hugging etc on the Italian side and none on the Irish side...except from my father.
The Italian guys thought nothing of a hug or greeting kiss---the irish boys just shook their heads and made witty comments lol. Being both I hung with the Irish, dressed like the Italians and very quietly did my thing in other places while I tried to figure myself out roflmao.
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Offline Aussie Chris

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #84 on: November 13, 2006, 08:30:34 am »
It's not. It's harder. You aren't really accepted by gay or str8, each looks askance at you. Why? Because i think  most of the supposed people the world labels bi aren't...every really bi male I know says the same thing, that being bi isn't about the sex, it's about the ability to have an emotional attachment with someone of either sex, as deep with a man as it is with a woman and vice versa...

Thanks for posting this brokebackjack.  I admit that the psychology of bisexuality is intriguing to me.  The reality is that we are all limited in our understanding of other orientations as we can only view them from within the context of our own.  So I have little choice but to try to interpret your description of bisexuals through my gay eyes.  For my part, I've never thought of bisexuals as sexually indecisive.  They're definitely different to me because I don't feel a physical attraction to women although I have a strong spiritual connection with them.  I sometimes wish I could have a physical attraction to women because I figure that this would give me choice, and then at least I would be given the option (*) of leading a straight life, but to be honest the majority of straight men demonstrate qualities and a state of mind that I would not want to emulate.  The (*) there was my acknowledgement that this is a simplistic view based on a gay-biased interpretation.

The thing I'd like to acknowledge here is the fact that bisexuality is seen by some to be the least of all orientations.  The straights are against you because you sleep with men, but gays also resent you because you consort with the "enemy".  Personally I envy you because you because you have choice.  Buy I think we can all too easily fall in to envying the greener grass on the other side of the fence.  I would love to hear a little more about the challenges of bisexuality, if there is more to tell.  I don't find it that unusual to be attracted to the qualities of a person, rather than just sex. But the contradiction is that if you find someone like that, they are physically hot and you want to have sex with them.

<sigh> being human is so much about duality... ;)
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Offline brokebackjack

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #85 on: November 13, 2006, 08:51:39 am »
Sure, I don't mind talking about it at all. But not now, i was up half the night and have to go dig out a stump in ICY cold weather now lol.
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Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #86 on: November 13, 2006, 10:37:39 am »
Thank you for that very insightful and moving post, brokebackjack. Maybe the title of this topic should be "One Person People." (Do I hear Barbra warming up in the background?) Anyway, I have felt that jolt too and I doubt if I'll ever feel it again now matter where on this rugged old road I roam, whether just keeping to one road or travelling both, as you've done. It's as natural as can be to want to seek union with the beloved, who can take any kind of manifestation. It appears that your upbringing allowed you to seize the opportunity when and however it presented itself!

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Offline Momof2

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #87 on: November 14, 2006, 03:29:59 pm »
I think there are alot of people who have strong emotional bonds to people of both sexes that can or not be sexual.  I have an extremely strong bond (need) for someone that I loved a very long time ago that was sexual. 

I am married (straight) and LOVE men.  I love the way a man's body looks. I love the little V before the penis.  I think a man's penis is gorgeous.  Love having sex with my husband.  But on the other hand, I have an extremely strong erotic attraction to women.  I have friends that are lesbians and have always wondered.  But to me, I think if I did have sex with a woman it would be for purely sexual reasons.  The bond might come later.  It is so confusing.  I have always been intrigued by bisexuality.  Is it having the best of both worlds???
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Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #88 on: December 06, 2007, 11:33:16 pm »
Here's where we first discussed the question, why did Jack and Ennis go off in separate directions when they left Brokeback Mountain?
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Offline Artiste

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #89 on: December 09, 2007, 06:38:47 pm »
According to the film, it seems, to me, obvious that Ennis is an one man's man, indeed!!


Is that so in the book?

P.S., I often wondered and still do what is an one man's man!! Al ady neighbour said that often to me about her nephew she lived with, and/or I (maybe too, I think). But I never thought that nephew to be a gay man. But she found out that I was a gay man (I was then about 16 or so), since I saved his life!

Hugs!!

Offline brokebackjack

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #90 on: December 11, 2007, 05:08:39 am »
What's a one man man??

me.

I'm not gay, I am bisexual. And THIS switchhitter has had exactly one <1> serious, once-in-a-lifetime M/M relationship.
ONE.
After that had to end my friends set me up with a 6'2 muscular and very handsome fireman who rode a Harley. He even picked me up for that date on his bike. We never so much as held hands. All I did during that 'date' was talk about my boyfriend lol.  Yet>>> that firemnan and I are still friends.

That was the last time I so much as dated a guy, and never once have I had sex with any other man since my one  relationship ended. As a bi male, the attraction is Person Specific. I didn't want anyone else; for me it would have been "settling", and  I'm not one to drink vinegar after wine.
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #91 on: December 11, 2007, 10:00:08 am »
a 6'2 muscular and very handsome fireman who rode a Harley.

 :o THUD.
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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #92 on: December 11, 2007, 10:13:23 am »
What's a one man man??

me.

I'm not gay, I am bisexual. And THIS switchhitter has had exactly one <1> serious, once-in-a-lifetime M/M relationship.
ONE.
After that had to end my friends set me up with a 6'2 muscular and very handsome fireman who rode a Harley. He even picked me up for that date on his bike. We never so much as held hands. All I did during that 'date' was talk about my boyfriend lol.  Yet>>> that firemnan and I are still friends.

That was the last time I so much as dated a guy, and never once have I had sex with any other man since my one  relationship ended. As a bi male, the attraction is Person Specific. I didn't want anyone else; for me it would have been "settling", and  I'm not one to drink vinegar after wine.

You can say that again...with feeling!!!!

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #93 on: December 11, 2007, 10:21:29 am »
Vinegar is good for you. ...  8)  ::)
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Artiste

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #94 on: December 11, 2007, 07:19:25 pm »
??

Any serious talks?

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Offline Aussie Chris

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #95 on: December 12, 2007, 08:55:12 am »
What's a one man man??

me.

I'm not gay, I am bisexual. And THIS switchhitter has had exactly one <1> serious, once-in-a-lifetime M/M relationship.
ONE.
After that had to end my friends set me up with a 6'2 muscular and very handsome fireman who rode a Harley. He even picked me up for that date on his bike. We never so much as held hands. All I did during that 'date' was talk about my boyfriend lol.  Yet>>> that firemnan and I are still friends.

That was the last time I so much as dated a guy, and never once have I had sex with any other man since my one  relationship ended. As a bi male, the attraction is Person Specific. I didn't want anyone else; for me it would have been "settling", and  I'm not one to drink vinegar after wine.

This is strangely alluring!  Clearly your passions run deep.  And the fireman thing?  Mmm mmM!  Honey?  I could see this story developed into "Brokeback Mountain: The next generation".  No kidding brokebackjack, I hope your (real) life makes you smile sometimes, maybe proud also?  It's nice to know that there are others out there that put relationships (i.e. people) before the biology.  I feel this way.  If I've correctly interpreted a little of you?
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Offline brokebackjack

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #96 on: December 18, 2007, 02:30:43 pm »
??

Any serious talks?

Hugs!
That was serious. Why would you say it wasn't.
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Offline brokeplex

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #97 on: December 19, 2007, 01:25:32 am »
I am very happy to be a one-man man! When I was younger, well...... lets say that I didn't question Chris much about what he did, and half the time in our long relationship he was married anyway, and Chris didn't question me. But, with D.L., I am his totally, and I am very comfortable in that type of relationship at this stage of my life.

Offline Artiste

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #98 on: December 19, 2007, 07:35:16 pm »
Interesting! Hi to all of you!!

This is an interesting subject: One Man Men!!

Does it mean that if you are a gay man, and if you are in an relationship like married or coupled with another gay man, that an one man man prefers monogramy? (Is that the right word?)

Just asking...

hugs!!  Merry, Merry, Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to you all...!!P.S.Can we be contend when one is an One Man Man?

Offline brokebackjack

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #99 on: December 20, 2007, 03:18:21 am »
Interesting! Hi to all of you!!

This is an interesting subject: One Man Men!!

Does it mean that if you are a gay man, and if you are in an relationship like married or coupled with another gay man, that an one man man prefers monogramy? (Is that the right word?)

Just asking...

hugs!!  Merry, Merry, Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to you all...!!P.S.Can we be contend when one is an One Man Man?
Joyeaux Noel et bonne annee!

I would thinkj a 'one-man man' ius just that...a man who is with ONE and wants only that ONE. A man who does not screw around. In BBM, Ennis was a one man man if there ever was one. Jack had a roving eye. Yet a case could be made that emotionally he was a one-man man, if not physically.

Artiste I'm not gay, and the way I 'know' bisexual means the attraction is person specific, not gender specific. Before I fell in love I did what I wanted to do and had fun. AFTERWARDS, well, no way. There was no desire for it. Nor was there any point.

I wasn't interested in making do, or settling for Mr Right Now. OK, it was ended, but how--or why--would I want to replace someone irreplaceable? It wasn't an unhealthy obsession, or anything like that at all: I had been with my guy and that was it, nobody could replace him. I accepted it. I did not want anyone else.
But like I said I'm not gay. Bi is  different from gay. I had The Female Sex. But I do know this....if god forbid something should happen to my wife, that's it, there will not be anyone else. She  is irreplaceable>>>> and i would not even try.

I don't want anyone else.
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Offline brokebackjack

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #100 on: December 20, 2007, 04:24:02 am »
Interesting! Hi to all of you!!

This is an interesting subject: One Man Men!!

Does it mean that if you are a gay man, and if you are in an relationship like married or coupled with another gay man, that an one man man prefers monogramy? (Is that the right word?)

Just asking...

hugs!!  Merry, Merry, Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to you all...!!P.S.Can we be contend when one is an One Man Man?
Joyeaux Noel et Bonne Annee!

I would think a 'one-man man' is just that...a man who is with ONE MAN and wants only that ONE MAN. A man who does not screw around. In BBM, Ennis was a 'one-man man' if there ever was one, while Jack had a roving eye. A case could be made that emotionally--if not physically-- Jack Twist was a 'One-Man Man', but I don't think that's what it means in this case. Am I wrong or right about that?

Artiste I'm not gay, and the way I 'know' bisexual means the attraction is person specific, not gender specific. Before I fell in love I did what I wanted to do and had fun. AFTER falling in love, there was no desire for anyone else.  I'm a monogamous type, but even so,there wasn't any point in having someone else when I had who I WANTED.

But when that ended I wasn't interested in making do, or settling for Mr Right Now. How--or why--would I want to replace someone irreplaceable?It wasn't possible. I'm not built that way. It wasn't an unhealthy obsession on a 'lost love', or anything like that at all: I had been with my guy and that was it, nobody could replace him.  I'd had what few were graced with and just accepted that fact.  I did not want anyone else. It may even be genetic>>> after my father died my mother never so much as went on a date. She considered herself lucky to have had what they'd shared together. No way she wanted anyone else.
But like I said I'm not gay. Bi is  different from gay and that might be part of these feelings, i don't know..... And you have to remember as a bi male I had The Female Sex. Also, I'm not very sane lolol.

  But I do know this....if god forbid something should happen to my wife, that's it, there will not be anyone else. She  is irreplaceable>>>> and i would not even try. I've been blessed twice.

I don't want anyone else.
"I couldn't stand it no more so i fixed it"

Offline brokeplex

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #101 on: December 20, 2007, 10:32:01 am »
I think that for many men as they age their desire to be or not to be monogamous changes. As I have grown older, monogamy IS the option that keeps my interest. When I was younger....oh, well, it was the 70's and things were happening!

Offline Artiste

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #102 on: December 21, 2007, 11:32:19 am »
Thanks brokeplex!

You made my day!! You make me smile with your last sentence. Be assured that I am glad too of your first serious answer!! Both sentences are great!! What great writer you are, and a stud too!!

I am finding that some young gay men to-day seem to be more serious about life, I think. Sure, many may fool around a while, like some straights do. Instead of the utmostly negative limitations of gay lives as in the BM movie, at least there are much more avenues to find a potential partner these days, and the internet helps??

Many persons told me that I am crasy trying to find another gay guy, saying that romance is only fiction. I wonder why these persons are not One Man Men? At least, seeking other gay men??

Hugs!! P.S. Doing an old puzzle yesterday, I notice what Texas is; seems that you have also sheep there too?? And Jacks and Ennisses, therefore?? Of course, it mentions oil, as the millionnaire you are... Texans!!

Merry Christmas, Joyous Holidays too!!

Offline brokeplex

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #103 on: December 21, 2007, 12:24:20 pm »

Hugs!! P.S. Doing an old puzzle yesterday, I notice what Texas is; seems that you have also sheep there too?? And Jacks and Ennisses, therefore?? Of course, it mentions oil, as the millionnaire you are... Texans!!

Merry Christmas, Joyous Holidays too!! ;

Must be an ancient puzzle Artiste, Oh yes, the old Texas economy was based upon cattle ranches, sheep ranches, oil wells and cotton farms....... But, in 2007 Texas is just another urbanized, industrialized, consumer mass market driven economy. Which I think is too bad, I miss the old Texas. But, since I retire next week, I'm not going to worry about it too much!     oooooo-eeeeeee!    ;D

Offline Artiste

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #104 on: December 21, 2007, 04:09:22 pm »
Brokeplex, have a Happy, Happy, Happy, gay retirement soon!!
Looking at that puzzle now, I discover that it is called United States Map Puzzle, No. 102, manufactured by the Automatic Paper Co. Ltd, Toronto, Canada; must be before or during or soon after WWII, since the Texas census was 6, 414, 824 for its population in 1940, it says. What is it now? I find that number of persons very high then! I was surprised!

Having past and stayed overnight in New Mexico, I guess I did venture into parts of Texas to go Route 66 to Los Angeles? But did I meet Ennis or Jack??

So, you are now a One Man's Man! Will you be so too next week?? Dare I ask??

Hugs!!

Merry Gay Christmas to you and to your buddy!!

Offline brokeplex

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #105 on: December 22, 2007, 08:04:03 pm »
Brokeplex, have a Happy, Happy, Happy, gay retirement soon!!
Looking at that puzzle now, I discover that it is called United States Map Puzzle, No. 102, manufactured by the Automatic Paper Co. Ltd, Toronto, Canada; must be before or during or soon after WWII, since the Texas census was 6, 414, 824 for its population in 1940, it says. What is it now? I find that number of persons very high then! I was surprised!

Having past and stayed overnight in New Mexico, I guess I did venture into parts of Texas to go Route 66 to Los Angeles? But did I meet Ennis or Jack??

So, you are now a One Man's Man! Will you be so too next week?? Dare I ask??

Hugs!!

Merry Gay Christmas to you and to your buddy!!

Artiste you have a collectors item. Is the puzzle in good shape? Is the puzzle box in good shape? Do you wish to sell it?

Please send me a picture of the completed puzzle and any informational materials within the box.

The current estimated pop of Texas is over 20 million.

Offline Artiste

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #106 on: December 23, 2007, 11:54:22 am »
Thanks brokeplex!

When I got that puzzle, it was said that only one piece was missing; but now there are 4 or 5 small ones that I can maybe find, but that is only a possibility. The cardboard top is still in good shape. the colours are great too top as well as pieces. Maybe one can find another in order to have all??

I do not know how to place an image here. Tell me.

I pushed above the square for image but got no browse button!

Since you seem to be an One Man Man, is your buddy with you to-day? May I ask,

for you to hug him for me too?? !!

Hugs!! JOYEUX NOEL à VOUS TOUS... vos deux chums (amis)!!
 
   AMOUR, SANTÉ, JOIE , BONHEUR,
        PROSPÉRITÉ, SUCCÈS, PAIX.
 

Offline brokeplex

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #107 on: December 23, 2007, 12:37:01 pm »
Sorry, it sounds as if your puzzle is not in marketable shape, any missing pieces or damage to the container catastrophically lowers its resale value. But, perhaps it has personal meaning for you, and perhaps one day a historical museum might be interested in looking at it.

D.L. is right now shopping at "Sam's", I'm not in the mood for pushing,shoving crowds today. D.L. and I leave for my sister's ranch Christmas morning. We will spend most of the day with her family, and then we head back home, and then leave for a few days in New Mexico. D.L. will once again prove that he can't ski, I will prove the wisdom of sitting in the lodge, sipping hot toddies and wishing others good luck in their skiing endeavors.

Merry Christmas! 

Offline Artiste

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #108 on: December 23, 2007, 01:30:12 pm »
Thanks brokeplex!

I know what you mean by the condition of the puzzle and accept that!!

Concerning you two will go to New Mexico??

Would you like to read my adventure in New Mexico?

Hugs!!   Have a Great Voyage you two!! Lucky you!!

Offline brokeplex

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #109 on: December 23, 2007, 01:40:24 pm »
yes, I would be delighted to read of your NM adventures.

Offline Artiste

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #110 on: December 23, 2007, 08:20:12 pm »
Thanks brokeplex!

From Chicago, I, a young stud, chauferred an elderly gentleman who went to stay the Winters with his sister in Los Angeles. This allowed me to travel and eventually end up in my art studio near San Francisco then.

So from Chicago, we followed the then Route 66 (I WAS TO WRITE ROUTE 69, which I know too, ha! ha!). It was that route 66 that the weekly movie serie on TV made popular, but now cut up, since too many killers murdered travelors then robbing them!

So I past many USA states, even the KKK handed me (I was frightened) a pamplet on the street in a big city! That is another story.

Arrived in New Mexico, the gentleman took his shower. After his, I took my shower too, but as he was on his bed, he yelled for me to stop, since he said that in was now raining in our motel room over our two beds!! I thought, well he is old... and I kept on doing my shower for a longer time still... unfortunately!! So, when I came out of the shower room, I noticed that it was raining over the beds because clouds had formed, yes!! You know why?
....
Was I an One Man Man then? Were you?

Hugs!! Take a photo of you in the shower alone or with your buddy for moi??

Hugs!! Merry Gay weekend and Christmas and Holidays!!

Offline brokeplex

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #111 on: December 23, 2007, 09:50:36 pm »
Merry Christmas Artiste!

Thank you for sharing your rainy night in N Mexico story!

Offline Artiste

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #112 on: December 24, 2007, 05:48:40 pm »
Enjoy doing so brokeplex, and will be happy to tell you more stories too!

Always enjoy yours and your comments!!

Guess you are now in a sleigh riding the horses to your sister??

With your buddy, lucky you!!

Hugs!! Merry Christmas!!

Offline Br. Patrick

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #113 on: January 08, 2008, 02:23:19 pm »
Hugs!!

Artiste~!
You have revived this old thread that I started soon after joining Bettermost.  I think one of the reasons that I'm a monk is that psychologically and spiritually my innate sexual desires for contacts with many men contradicts my upbringing.  But I did have a homeless guy live with me for 5 years, on and off, and I did love him.. at least until he gave himself to me sexually when my landlady wanted me to stop sheltering homeless people.  When he couldn't (or wouldn't) return that love.. it just faded away.  At least I know NOW that I have experienced true love with one man that was one sided but absolutely real.  I know that because I spent the first six months of 2006 learning how to love.  I actually learned what real love was from Brokeback Mountain.  I gave the homeless guy 6 months to leave and he did in June of 2003.  He was straight with strong gay leanings that he satisfied by being around men who were sexually attracted to him.  In the end, I received much more than I gave.  All of my previous attractions were nothing but lust combined with adrenaline.   I know that because after "Terry" couldn't or wouldn't return the love I had for him, I fell in "lust" with his friend, also homeless.  Then one day I drove Terry to the place the other guy was staying with this woman and I walked in on them right after they had sex.  He jumped up in the nude and looked good.  Then he turned around and ran back to the bed.  As soon as I saw his ASS my "love" disappeared in an instant.  It was an incredible revelation!  He had a really ugly butt and I am and always will be a "Crackhead"  (Not the drug, the male backside.)  It was like a 'switch' that was turned off in my head.  This guy, "Dave", and I are great friends now but it's funny to think of how I once thought I really loved him.

All from a movie.  A LIFE CHANGING movie...

{{{Cyberhugs}}}

br. p

« Last Edit: January 08, 2008, 05:52:45 pm by Br. Patrick »
Lean on me, let our hearts beat in time,
Feel strength from the hands that have held you so long.
Who cares where we go on this rugged old road
In a world that may say that we're wrong.

...Cause I know - A love that will never grow old.

Gustavo Santaolalla & Bernie Taupin

Offline ifyoucantfixit

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #114 on: January 08, 2008, 02:29:50 pm »
\


           I love that story....I bet you dont know why...  Its just good to see I am not the only shallow person
when it comes to thinking of peoples bodies when it comes to attraction... :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
If you are that way..Then I dont feel so bad...            love ya darlin...love ya to death and beyond  janice



     Beautiful mind

Offline Br. Patrick

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #115 on: January 08, 2008, 03:18:38 pm »
\


           I love that story....I bet you dont know why...  Its just good to see I am not the only shallow person
when it comes to thinking of peoples bodies when it comes to attraction... :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
If you are that way..Then I dont feel so bad...            love ya darlin...love ya to death and beyond  janice

Lil' Darlin'
I was told by my Therapist that God MADE bodies beautiful because they are created in the image of the Creator.  So, you'll understand when I tell you that 20 or so years ago, I was in this department store and saw a man with a BEAUTIFUL BUTT~!  I cautiously followed him for a really long time until his wife asked him, "Honey, why is that man following you?"   YIKES, I was caught and turned the other way and moved quickly as I could with discretion.  But (or Butt), I just can't resist a good BUTT and that, I have learned is now OK because "my heart doesn't condemn me"  (1 John: 13-24) so neither does the One Who Is~!  AND WE'RE NOT SHALLOW, we just know what Beauty is~!

{{{{{{{Cyberlove}}}}}}}

br. p
Lean on me, let our hearts beat in time,
Feel strength from the hands that have held you so long.
Who cares where we go on this rugged old road
In a world that may say that we're wrong.

...Cause I know - A love that will never grow old.

Gustavo Santaolalla & Bernie Taupin

Offline Artiste

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #116 on: January 08, 2008, 11:45:30 pm »
Thanks very much Br. Patrick!

Your two stories are making my day happy!!

Yes, I wondered often how many men are bi-s or others... and am still puzzled by them!!

I had so many married men (who had wives) in the past... which made me question.

On Oprah tomorrow, her show is about wives (married to men) who are lesbians, I figure. So will that be similar to my puzzle as to straight or bi-s men?? Or to your's?

Hugs!!

Offline Br. Patrick

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #117 on: January 09, 2008, 12:46:02 am »
Thanks very much Br. Patrick!

Your two stories are making my day happy!!

Yes, I wondered often how many men are bi-s or others... and am still puzzled by them!!

I had so many married men (who had wives) in the past... which made me question.

In my experience.. going back to 1973, the people who are the most Screwed Up are bisexual.   But that's only in my experience.   Terry, my homeless roommate had an antisocial personality disorder.  He was also an alcoholic and beat me up badly several times.  But I cared for him so much that I put up with it.  Earlier in my life I have known a bisexual man who seemed to be split in half.  He could have sex with men and love it.  He could have sex with women and love it.  But talking to him about both in the same conversation made him ballistic.  Another friend I had back in the 70's really shouldn't have been married in the first place.  He liked sex with men  so much more - and he was a really nice guy.

Wow, I wonder what has happened to these people?  They seemed unhappy with themselves and it was understandable when they were pulled both ways.   Again, this is only my experience..  Your mileage may vary~!   Actually, in my earlier days, the fact that you had so many men who had wives would have made me jealous.   I think all gay guys fantasize about having sex with a straight man.  Latter Days, the film, starts out that way.

For me it was like bookends.   The first guy I had sex with after coming out had a pregnant wife and was horny~!  I was glad to oblige and even had a return engagement with the guy a few weeks later!  My last was with Terry, who had been married and had 5 kids~!  I don't need to have sex with anyone anymore (which is a good thing since I am a monk!!).

{{{Cyberhugs}}}   ;)

br. p
Lean on me, let our hearts beat in time,
Feel strength from the hands that have held you so long.
Who cares where we go on this rugged old road
In a world that may say that we're wrong.

...Cause I know - A love that will never grow old.

Gustavo Santaolalla & Bernie Taupin

Offline brokebackjack

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #118 on: January 11, 2008, 07:52:50 am »
In my experience.. going back to 1973, the people who are the most Screwed Up are bisexual.   But that's only in my experience.   Terry, my homeless roommate had an antisocial personality disorder.  He was also an alcoholic and beat me up badly several times.  But I cared for him so much that I put up with it.  Earlier in my life I have known a bisexual man who seemed to be split in half.  He could have sex with men and love it.  He could have sex with women and love it.  But talking to him about both in the same conversation made him ballistic.  Another friend I had back in the 70's really shouldn't have been married in the first place.  He liked sex with men  so much more - and he was a really nice guy.

Wow, I wonder what has happened to these people?  They seemed unhappy with themselves and it was understandable when they were pulled both ways.   Again, this is only my experience..  Your mileage may vary~!   Actually, in my earlier days, the fact that you had so many men who had wives would have made me jealous.   I think all gay guys fantasize about having sex with a straight man.  Latter Days, the film, starts out that way.

For me it was like bookends.   The first guy I had sex with after coming out had a pregnant wife and was horny~!  I was glad to oblige and even had a return engagement with the guy a few weeks later!  My last was with Terry, who had been married and had 5 kids~!  I don't need to have sex with anyone anymore (which is a good thing since I am a monk!!).

{{{Cyberhugs}}}   ;)

br. p
My reply more properly belongs on the bi thread, Patrick, and that is where I placed it. Much love, my friend

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,4836.msg314874.html#msg314874
"I couldn't stand it no more so i fixed it"

Offline Artiste

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #119 on: January 12, 2008, 12:13:03 am »
Thanks Br. Patrick, and thanks brokebackjack!!

Since it is bedtime, I will ask Ennis and Jack if they are going to bed with me!!

I appreciate both of your comments... and will answer later.

Hugs, hugs!!

Offline Artiste

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #120 on: March 12, 2008, 06:49:18 pm »
One man men!

I think that there are many one man men, out there!!

Like Ennis... in the BM movie!

Are you one? Or you know of one?

Au revoir,
hugs!

Offline optom3

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #121 on: March 12, 2008, 07:08:28 pm »
One man men!

I think that there are many one man men, out there!!

Like Ennis... in the BM movie!

Are you one? Or you know of one?

Au revoir,
hugs!

My first husband.
Married to me for 7 years, we were quite young and he was a virgin, then he  had a breakdown,came out and has been with his partner ever since.That is nearly 20 years.He and I still speak from time to time.He always knew he was gay,but could not initially face it.Once he finally came out,he fell deeply in love and has remained so.
Interestingly enough,his partner was much more experienced a bit like Jack I guess. So  the answer is yes,people like Ennis do exist.

Offline Artiste

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #122 on: March 12, 2008, 09:10:55 pm »
Thanks very, very much optom!

Your story of a real person you know is touching!!

Quote
My first husband.
Married to me for 7 years, we were quite young and he was a virgin, then he  had a breakdown,came out and has been with his partner ever since.That is nearly 20 years.He and I still speak from time to time.He always knew he was gay,but could not initially face it.Once he finally came out,he fell deeply in love and has remained so.
Interestingly enough,his partner was much more experienced a bit like Jack I guess. So  the answer is yes,people like Ennis do exist.
 
.........

May it help others too!! That is endearing! I am so happy
 to read it!

You know of another too?

Are other(s) with such news?? Or want to be?

Au revoir,
hugs!

Offline optom3

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #123 on: March 12, 2008, 10:21:03 pm »
Thanks very, very much optom!

Your story of a real person you know is touching!!
.........

May it help others too!! That is endearing! I am so happy
 to read it!

You know of another too?

Are other(s) with such news?? Or want to be?

Au revoir,
hugs!

Actually I do.I guess I must be a listener because,the odest people tell me thigs.But then on a one to one basis I am quite open too.Useless in large gatherings.
Can't tell you too much, he is an older man,late 60's married for some time with kids,wife had drug problem,he left,came out as gay in late 70's and has been with same man for nearly 30 years.He is a real swetie.And has had to cope with a lot,including losing son to drugs(he got custody of the 2 kids)
and obviously homophobia.
He is however one of the nicest and wisest men I have ever met.He has given me some very goos advise recently.

Offline Artiste

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #124 on: March 12, 2008, 10:51:17 pm »
Thanks optom!

You say:
Quote
Can't tell you too much, he is an older man,late 60's married for some time with kids,wife had drug problem,he left,came out as gay in late 70's and has been with same man for nearly 30 years.He is a real swetie.And has had to cope with a lot,including losing son to drugs(he got custody of the 2 kids)
and obviously homophobia.
He is however one of the nicest and wisest men I have ever met.He has given me some very goos advise recently. 

.....

Wow, that is interesting! 30 years, wow, great relationship!

Another one you know, maybe?

..........

I can see your stories written in books and on the internet to help us all, thanks!

Au revoir,
hugs!

Offline optom3

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #125 on: March 13, 2008, 10:39:31 am »
Thanks optom!

You say:
.....

Wow, that is interesting! 30 years, wow, great relationship!

Another one you know, maybe?

Sorry no more,is 2 not enough!!!!!!

People are always telling me I should write a book.I just think no one would ever believe half the stuff.I sometimes feel I have been beaten around with the bad luck stick,but hey I am still here so can't be all bad.

..........

I can see your stories written in books and on the internet to help us all, thanks!

Au revoir,
hugs!

Offline Artiste

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #126 on: April 02, 2008, 10:07:59 pm »
Was Jack a one man man?

Offline brokeplex

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #127 on: April 02, 2008, 11:28:07 pm »
Was Jack a one man man?

good heavens no! he roamed the range!

Offline Artiste

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #128 on: April 02, 2008, 11:41:32 pm »
Thanks Brokeplex!

Jack roamed the range because he Ennis was not with him!!

Jack had no choice but to roam... he said so!!

But he wanted to be Ennis's one man man, did he not??

Au revoir,
hugs!

Offline brokeplex

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #129 on: April 02, 2008, 11:44:37 pm »
Thanks Brokeplex!

Jack roamed the range because he Ennis was not with him!!

Jack had no choice but to roam... he said so!!

But he wanted to be Ennis's one man man, did he not??

Au revoir,
hugs!

maybe if they had settled down Jack wouldn't have roamed. but we don't know, but I think that Jack was just the roaming type.

Offline Artiste

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #130 on: April 03, 2008, 12:07:06 am »
To me, I am coming to think that BOTH would have lived together HAPILLY...
if they would have went back to Brokeback Mountain !!

You know  why?

Au revoir,
hugs!

Offline brokeplex

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #131 on: April 03, 2008, 12:08:49 am »
To me, I am coming to think that BOTH would have lived together HAPILLY...
if they would have went back to Brokeback Mountain !!

You know  why?

Au revoir,
hugs!

there is no place to live on Brokeback except temporarily in the summer. and you still need food deliveries from down slope.

Offline Artiste

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #132 on: April 03, 2008, 12:41:32 am »
Ennis and Jack could have sneeked up there,

and come down for food.

Best of all, use the foods there!

Some persons do live out, far from some!!

My father was a ranger, and he brought us so far away into the forests/mountains!!

You didn't answer my question?

Au revoir,
hugs!

Offline brokeplex

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #133 on: April 03, 2008, 12:43:45 am »
Ennis and Jack could have sneeked up there,

and come down for food.

Best of all, use the foods there!

Some persons do live out, far from some!!

My father was a ranger, and he brought us so far away into the forests/mountains!!

You didn't answer my question?Au revoir,
hugs!

hunh, what question?

Offline Artiste

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #134 on: April 03, 2008, 11:37:37 am »
Cette question:

  You know  why?

 

Offline Artiste

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Re: One Man Men
« Reply #135 on: June 29, 2008, 12:43:06 am »
There are some rare one man men !!