Author Topic: I did once (have a better idea)... to go to Mexico???  (Read 19802 times)

Offline Aussie Chris

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Re: I did once (have a better idea)... to go to Mexico???
« Reply #20 on: April 24, 2006, 08:26:09 pm »
Wow everyone, I must say that I'm going to have to ponder this some more.  You've never lead me astray, but on this one there's a fundamental that I'm having trouble accepting.  For everyone in the "Ennis is angry over the possibility of losing Jack" camp, the thing this assumes is that Ennis sees what he has with Jack as an actual (romantic) relationship.  At the time of the argument I don't think he does, in fact he doesn't until after Jack's death.  We know for sure that Ennis thinks that gays will be killed, but even more intriguing is that we learn that Ennis himself would be willing to kill Jack if he was to learn the things that Jack does.  So are we saying that this is a case of Ennis lashing out because he fears Jack is going to leave him?  Are the words that Ennis uses about killing Jack just misdirected rage?

Here's something else to consider: is it possible that Ennis was trying to sabotage the relationship at this point?  He gets himself a job that means he cannot get time off.  And after Jack becomes angry and Ennis breaks down, he asks Jack to "leave him be" and that it's because of Jack that he is this way.  If he was really worried about losing Jack, what's going on here?  I'm not forgetting the speech about work and money and child support and such, but how does this support the supposition that Ennis was angry out of fear of losing the relationship?
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: I did once (have a better idea)... to go to Mexico???
« Reply #21 on: April 25, 2006, 12:17:09 am »
For a "tough guy" Ennis is seen with tears in his eyes a surprisingly large number of times throughout the movie.

Six times, to be exact! (Alley, divorce, lakeside argument, phone booth, Jack's bedroom, final scene.) And one time for Jack (post-divorce). This came up in an interesting thread in a different BetterMost forum, devoted to the subject of crying in the movie.

And Amanda, I completely agree with you that this is among the ways Ennis expresses love.

As for your perspective, Chris, you've touched on some larger disagreements about the movie that would affect interpretations beyond this one scene. Personally, I DO think Ennis sees what he has with Jack as an actual romantic relationship. Not that he'd call it that; he'd call it "this thing" that "grabs hold of us" or some other non-threateningly vague term. But to me there are lots of signs that, as early as their summer on the mountain, and certainly by the time of the reunion, he knows that he cares passionately about Jack (again, he might not use the word "love," but it would amount to that).

So, yeah, I do think Ennis' threat to kill Jack is misdirected rage. I don't for a second believe he'd actually ever hurt Jack. But he's really angry, and not just out of homophobia, I don't think.

But when he says "leave me be," I don't think he really wants Jack to do that. Nor does he really blame Jack for him feeling like nothing and nobody. Again, he's just lashing out because he's upset and scared. He can't stand it any more, but doesn't know how to fix it.

The music and camera angles in that scene provide clues as to how we're supposed to take it, I think. The music is absent while Jack is talking, and the camera is trained matter-of-factly on him -- he's making some good points, and we don't know how Ennis is reacting, maybe he's still angry or whatever. Then Jack finishes speaking, and finally the camera turns back to Ennis and we see that his demeanor has changed, he is crying and REALLY upset and at that moment the sad touching music strikes up full force, as if indicating that, yeah, Jack is frustrated and pissed off, but look how heartbroken Ennis is. As I understand it, we're being shown that, as hard as this situation is on Jack, it's equally hard on Ennis.


Offline Aussie Chris

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Re: I did once (have a better idea)... to go to Mexico???
« Reply #22 on: April 25, 2006, 12:39:03 am »
So, yeah, I do think Ennis' threat to kill Jack is misdirected rage. I don't for a second believe he'd actually ever hurt Jack. But he's really angry, and not just out of homophobia, I don't think.

Oh yeah, of course he wouldn't hurt/kill Jack.  Reading my previous post I realise that that was going too far in the point I was trying to make.  But I do find it a strange line to take (misdirected or otherwise) in an argument.  Ok I'll settle down again now.  It seems that there's a general consensus.  For the most part I do agree with all of the points that's been made by everyone.  Depending on how I feel on the day, I see a different Ennis anyway.  I figured I'd thrash this one out for a while and see what came of it.

I thank everyone for their patience and persistence.
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Offline David

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Re: I did once (have a better idea)... to go to Mexico???
« Reply #23 on: April 25, 2006, 07:57:45 am »

Here's something else to consider: is it possible that Ennis was trying to sabotage the relationship at this point?  He gets himself a job that means he cannot get time off.  And after Jack becomes angry and Ennis breaks down, he asks Jack to "leave him be" and that it's because of Jack that he is this way. 

Hi Chris,

      Sabotage?   No,  I don't think so.    Ennis obviously isn't happy about where his life is right then.   But loosing Jack to him is the last thing he wants.    That is why he keeps his mouth shut about August until the end.    Ennis obviously still needs Jack.   That is why he traded August with his boss to get the time of in May.   Ennis is also getting older.  He knows that getting jobs is alot harder when your pushing 40.  (trust me on this.  Sigh)

    No, Ennis's reaction at the end is his "counter point" to Jacks complaints.   Jack has just rattled off how frustrated he was.     These words cut right thru Ennis.   The best he can do is retort back with his laments about where he is in life.   "Let me be" ??   That is the LAST thing Ennis wants!    He is sooo tortured by the fact he wants to be with Jack and societies threat towards them.   

Poor Ennis,  porr Jack.   :'(

Offline opinionista

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Re: I did once (have a better idea)... to go to Mexico???
« Reply #24 on: April 25, 2006, 08:07:40 am »
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I thank everyone for their patience and persistence.

Well, I'm glad you brought this topic up. It made me think about the movie again, which I haven't actually done in a while.

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Here's something else to consider: is it possible that Ennis was trying to sabotage the relationship at this point?  He gets himself a job that means he cannot get time off.  And after Jack becomes angry and Ennis breaks down, he asks Jack to "leave him be" and that it's because of Jack that he is this way.  If he was really worried about losing Jack, what's going on here?  I'm not forgetting the speech about work and money and child support and such, but how does this support the supposition that Ennis was angry out of fear of losing the relationship?

This is intersting because I thought the same until I read Ennis' returned postcard, the one with "deceased" stamped on. I realized then that Ennis didn't want to break up with Jack no matter how unconfortable he felt with the fact that he was in love with a man.

I think Ennis, at that point of his life, felt caught between a rock and a hard place. On one hand, he had his daughters to think about. He loved Jack but he also loved his two little girls and failing to make child support meant a risk to lose them. When he was married to Alma he didn't have to worry about that, because he knew there were going to be home when he was back. But after the divorce, everything was different. And to make things worse, Alma knew about his secret, and Ennis knew she knew. 

On the other hand, losing Jack meant death for him and he knew it. Ennis knew he couldn't live without Jack. Jack was his salvation, the air that kept him alive. He couldn't see him much, but he knew Jack was there, which provided him with some emotional comfort. So, Ennis was struggling hard to have them both, which was emotionally draining for him. When Ennis says: "I can't stand being like this no more, Jack", after falling onto his knees crying, he meant the whole situation not only his relationship with Jack.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2006, 05:33:27 am by opinionista »
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Offline Aussie Chris

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Re: I did once (have a better idea)... to go to Mexico???
« Reply #25 on: April 25, 2006, 08:29:14 am »
On the other hand, losing Jack meant death for him and he knew it. Ennis knew he couldn't live without Jack. Jack was his salvation, the air that kept him alive. He couldn't see him much, but he knew Jack was there, which provided him with some emotional comfort. So, Ennis was struggling hard to have them both, which was emotionally draining for him. When Ennis says: "I can't stand being like this no more, Jack", after falling onto his knees crying, he meant the whole situation not only his relationship with Jack.

So would you say that all Jack had to do is not come running when Ennis called after the argument (and not die of course), and Ennis' world be forced to reconsider the nature of the relationship?  Here I'm taking your "Ennis knew he couldn't live without Jack. Jack was his salvation, the air that kept him alive" thought and applying it to a what would happen if Jack didn't die thought.  I know, the extention to the logic is getting a little ridiculous, but hey, I think a part of me refuses to accept the ending...
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: I did once (have a better idea)... to go to Mexico???
« Reply #26 on: April 25, 2006, 09:34:37 am »
But I do find it a strange line to take (misdirected or otherwise) in an argument.

I agree. In a long-ago thread about least-favorite lines, I mentioned this one.

Here's something else to consider: is it possible that Ennis was trying to sabotage the relationship at this point?  He gets himself a job that means he cannot get time off.
      Sabotage?   No,  I don't think so.    Ennis obviously isn't happy about where his life is right then.   But loosing Jack to him is the last thing he wants.

This is arguable, but I do think it's possible that Ennis, though he'd never break up entirely, was deliberately trying to minimize his meetings with Jack. He feels a lot of ambivalence about "the relationship" -- as distinct from his feelings for Jack, whom he loves unambivalently. His "not often" reply to Alma at Thanksgiving and his worries about whether people "suspect" reinforce this view. I know what you mean about the over-40 job market, David, still it doesn't seem as if Ennis made job flexibility his top priority (much to his regret later). Ennis is very stoic, and apparently IS able to get by on a couple of high-altitude f'cks as long as he knows Jack will still be there for him. But, as I said, he'd never really want Jack to leave him be.

But as for this
So would you say that all Jack had to do is not come running when Ennis called after the argument (and not die of course), and Ennis' world be forced to reconsider the nature of the relationship?

I think the answer, sadly, is no. It was Jack's death that forced Ennis to reconsider the nature of the relationship. He already knew he loved Jack. But his death made Ennis realize that his fears about identifying himself as gay should not have outweighed his love.


Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: I did once (have a better idea)... to go to Mexico???
« Reply #27 on: April 25, 2006, 10:27:55 pm »
I believe it's at least possible (although maybe not likely) that Ennis is thinking about trying to work harder on his relationship with Jack following this argument.  People have noted that the "I can't stand this anymore" comment echos the "If you can't fix it you've got to stand it" motto.  I'm increasingly convinced that this motto can be a key to interpreting lots of aspects of the film.  So, maybe Ennis has been scared enough by Jack's unhappiness to try to fix it.  Maybe completely giving up on the Cassie charade was a first step.  I do concede that this might be wishful thinking.  The last postcard is probably good evidence that Ennis had hoped that things would go back to the status quo (with a normal meeting somewhere on a camping trip).

On the idea of sabotage... I can see where that could be an interpretation.  But, towards the beginning of the argument Ennis keeps coming up with idea after idea of things they could do to make November fun, etc.  He even mentions "elk" which has functioned as an aphrodisiac in their relationship before (obviously the elk that they hunt and the ELKS lodge sign that signals the return of romance before the reunion scene). He's really trying to appease Jack and make him feel better right up to the "I did once" after Ennis says "Do you have a better idea."  I think, as you've said, that it's also important he didn't break the November news until the very end of their trip.  He clearly feels terribly guilty.

No, as I said in my earlier post, I think that Ennis is desperate to keep Jack.  You can't make love to a person for 20 years and have the kinds of passionate encounters and incredible moments of intimacy and not know on some level that this is love and a romantic relationship. We're only allowed to see a few of these moments by the filmmakers... we have to extrapolate and realize that there really are 20 years of long chats, confessions, "happy tussles," tent scenes and kisses, etc.  This is what makes Ennis's life exciting and meaningful (aside from his kids).  How could he not know how significant all of this is?  He believes he's making great sacrifices in order to facilitate this relationship too. 

What he says and what he does are often frustratingly different in this movie.  He doesn't consider the word love until way too late, but the flashback scene alone radiates love.  He says mean and hurtful things during the argument, but I do believe he's sort of testing Jack here.  His comments show how worried he is, I think.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2006, 09:00:42 pm by atz75 »
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: I did once (have a better idea)... to go to Mexico???
« Reply #28 on: April 25, 2006, 11:38:49 pm »
I believe it's at lease possible (although maybe not likely) that Ennis is thinking about trying to work harder on his relationship with Jack following this argument.  People have noted that the "I can't stand this anymore" comment echos the "If you can't fix it you've got to stand it" motto.  I'm increasingly convinced that this motto can be a key to interpreting lots of aspects of the film.  So, maybe Ennis has been scared enough by Jack's unhappiness to try to fix it.  Maybe completely giving up on the Cassie charade was a first step.  I do concede that this might be wishful thinking.  The last postcard is probably good evidence that Ennis had hoped that things would go back to the status quo (with a normal meeting somewhere on a camping trip).

Not to sound like I'm totally equivocating about what I said above about the possibility of Ennis sabotaging the relationship, but I agree with this. If Ennis WAS sabotaging -- extremely arguable, but there's something about his "not often" in the Thanksgiving scene that I find ominous -- it was only BEFORE this big argument (maybe "minimize" the relationship is a better description; I don't see him breaking it off completely). But during the argument he saw that he was seriously at risk of losing Jack, and it really upset him. And I, too, believe that his breaking up with Cassie signals that because of that he'd decided to make SOME changes, if only to quit pretending he has any interest in being with anyone else.

BTW, I want to clarify that I think in Ennis' mind there's a difference between "the relationship," which makes him uncomfortable for the obvious reasons, and his feelings toward Jack, whom he loves genuinely, romantically and without reservation. In the end, he realizes he shouldn't have made the distinction.

The elk reference as an aphrodisiac metaphor -- good one!

Offline Aussie Chris

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Re: I did once (have a better idea)... to go to Mexico???
« Reply #29 on: April 26, 2006, 04:59:49 am »
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No, as I said in my earlier post, I think that Ennis is desperate to keep Jack.  You can't make love to a person for 20 years and have the kinds of passionate encounters and incredible moments of intimacy and not know on some level that this is love and a romantic relationship. We're only allowed to see a few of these moments by the filmmakers... we have to extrapolate and realize that there really are 20 years of long chats, confessions, "happy tussles," tent scenes and kisses, etc.  This is what makes Ennis's life exciting and meaningful (aside from his kids).  How could he not know how significant all of this is?  He believes he's making great sacrifices in order to facilitate this relationship too.


Ahhh Amanda, I think I'll just have to come up with some more questions to test you.  I lust love listening to you talk about everything Brokeback - You are my BBM Oracle.  Whenever I find myself focusing too much on the dialogue in a specific scene, you help me see the big picture.  Bless you girl.

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Not to sound like I'm totally equivocating about what I said above about the possibility of Ennis sabotaging the relationship, but I agree with this. If Ennis WAS sabotaging -- extremely arguable, but there's something about his "not often" in the Thanksgiving scene that I find ominous -- it was only BEFORE this big argument (maybe "minimize" the relationship is a better description; I don't see him breaking it off completely). But during the argument he saw that he was seriously at risk of losing Jack, and it really upset him. And I, too, believe that his breaking up with Cassie signals that because of that he'd decided to make SOME changes, if only to quit pretending he has any interest in being with anyone else.

And latjoreme, thanks to you also.  I see your heart's in exactly the right place.  As you can now see, I didn't mean "sabotage" to mean the same as "end", only to temper it so that it had less control over him.  Maybe trying to keep Jack just a little more distant because he couldn't commit the way he should or wanted to, which was just as painful for Ennis as it was for Jack.

And I love the idea that maybe the argument and ending the relationship with Cassie was the beginning of a change in how Ennis viewed his relationship with Jack.  I know this is just wishful thinking on my part, but it does fit in with the events and is supported by Ennis' final redemption.  Kind of makes me sad though if Ennis was maybe considering changing his ways and live with Jack, but Jack dies before he make it a reality.

Thanks also to Sheyne, opinionista, and David, you've all been most helpful this week.
Nothing is as common as the wish to be remarkable - William Shakespeare