Who had Control and Used it: Jack or Ennis?

[chelseagirl]

What I can't figure out, is that Ennis did go to women, Alma, Cassie, he had a way to relieve that sexual tension he must have felt when Jack wasn't with him.   But Jack went to men, Mexico, Randall.   

Both openly talk of women, but if Jack mentioned other men, would that have been a "off limit" topic, especially knowing Ennis tenancy towards violence, was he even wise to mentioned Mexico in that final meeting? 

[loneleeb3]

What I can't figure out, is that Ennis did go to women, Alma, Cassie, he had a way to relieve that sexual tension he must have felt when Jack wasn't with him.   But Jack went to men, Mexico, Randall.   

Both openly talk of women, but if Jack mentioned other men, would that have been a "off limit" topic, especially knowing Ennis tenancy towards violence, was he even wise to mentioned Mexico in that final meeting? 

When Jack mentioned Mexico I don't think it was for anything more than a warmer climate.
I don't think he knew that Ennis knew what went on there.
As far as women, Ennis married Alma cause that is what he thought he was supposed to do.
As far as Cassie, she interjected herself into Ennis life. She came after him.

[chelseagirl]

When Jack mentioned Mexico I don't think it was for anything more than a warmer climate.
I don't think he knew that Ennis knew what went on there.
As far as women, Ennis married Alma cause that is what he thought he was supposed to do.
As far as Cassie, she interjected herself into Ennis life. She came after him.

When Ennis ask Jack about moving August meeting to November:

"do you have a better, idea,"

Jack: I did once.

Ennis: You did once, you mean Mexico, Jack Twist, cause I heard what  they got  in Mexico for boys like you".

This was not a passing comment, but a statement of someone who has knowledge.   Ennis knew exactly why Jack went to Mexico for, and this must have been killing him inside. 

Look, all  I want to know, if anyone felt the same I did when I watch the movie (for millionth time), Though Ennis had a wife, and then Cassie, he went to no other man, and Jack was his true, and only love.    Jack who also had a wife, still found the need to be with men, but they weren't Ennis whom he loved.

The way they lived their lives when not together, was it something that was of a wedge between the two?   Women were safe no threat, but another man was a real problem, it hit right to heart of the relationship. 

Ennis's possessive love for Jack, but his deep seeded fear, kept them from that "Sweet Life", but it also cause that long duration of time between meetings, Jack lived by the rules Ennis set.   But Jack was not a  pope, he acted on his needs. 

Ennis could take him screwing around with women, but  men, no way, that could get him killed.  Does this goes to control of Jack, or was Jack the one with control.  He knew exactly what to say to Ennis, when to say it or not say anything at all.

[Front-Ranger]

My opinion is that Jack and Ennis's relationship changed over time, and the balance of dominance and receptiveness was fluid. At the beginning of the movie,  Aguirre bestowed dominance on Jack and he showed it by introducing himself, leading Ennis to the bar, taking control of the sheep, and instructing Ennis to "git, less we want to sit around and tie knots all day." But the balance began to shift as Ennis perceived that Jack had a tendency to bite off more than he could chew in selecting a low startle point horse. Ennis easily directed the dogs with his whistle and then switched places with Jack as the herder. A crucial turning point came when Jack again couldn't control his horse and Ennis thoughtfully watched him disappear up the trail. Shortly after, Ennis was laid low by a bear, and Jack was again "on top." Jack seized control by overreacting with anger at Ennis's lateness. Then, Ennis shot the elk, belittling Jack's shooting ability, and the dance continued. Ennis seemed to be the dominant one when their sexual relationship began and perhaps that's another reason why he was so taken aback to ride in and find Jack unexpectedly striking the camp. Everything was mixed up when the last day tussle happened and when Ennis was disabled with a bloody nose, that was the last straw. Unable to control himself, Jack, or events, he lashed out the only way he knew. Their subsequent 20-year relationship reeled more and more out of balance as time went on and Ennis called the shots, leading Jack to resort to more and more desperate measures, and finally ending in his death and Ennis's ultimate control over his life, which he found to be not worth living. 

There is a lesson here, that the ancient Way of the Tao sums up very well (which I will post very soon).

[loneleeb3]

When Ennis ask Jack about moving August meeting to November:

"do you have a better, idea,"

Jack: I did once.

Ennis: You did once, you mean Mexico, Jack Twist, cause I heard what  they got  in Mexico for boys like you".

This was not a passing comment, but a statement of someone who has knowledge.   Ennis knew exactly why Jack went to Mexico for, and this must have been killing him inside. 

Look, all  I want to know, if anyone felt the same I did when I watch the movie (for millionth time), Though Ennis had a wife, and then Cassie, he went to no other man, and Jack was his true, and only love.    Jack who also had a wife, still found the need to be with men, but they weren't Ennis whom he loved.

The way they lived their lives when not together, was it something that was of a wedge between the two?   Women were safe no threat, but another man was a real problem, it hit right to heart of the relationship. 

Ennis's possessive love for Jack, but his deep seeded fear, kept them from that "Sweet Life", but it also cause that long duration of time between meetings, Jack lived by the rules Ennis set.   But Jack was not a  pope, he acted on his needs. 

Ennis could take him screwing around with women, but  men, no way, that could get him killed.  Does this goes to control of Jack, or was Jack the one with control.  He knew exactly what to say to Ennis, when to say it or not say anything at all.

When Jack saidf I did once he was talking about the night they were together after 4yrs of being apart. The whole "Sweet Life" conversation. That was the better Idea he is referring to.
When he said mexico he was just naming a warmer climate and a place where they wouldn't know anyone etc.
I don't think Jack thought Ennis knew what went on in mexico. Obviously, Ennis knew more than he thought when he  said about killing hiom for the things he didn't know about.

[loneleeb3]

My opinion is that Jack and Ennis's relationship changed over time, and the balance of dominance and receptiveness was fluid. At the beginning of the movie,  Aguirre bestowed dominance on Jack and he showed it by introducing himself, leading Ennis to the bar, taking control of the sheep, and instructing Ennis to "git, less we want to sit around and tie knots all day." But the balance began to shift as Ennis perceived that Jack had a tendency to bite off more than he could chew in selecting a low startle point horse. Ennis easily directed the dogs with his whistle and then switched places with Jack as the herder. A crucial turning point came when Jack again couldn't control his horse and Ennis thoughtfully watched him disappear up the trail. Shortly after, Ennis was laid low by a bear, and Jack was again "on top." Jack seized control by overreacting with anger at Ennis's lateness. Then, Ennis shot the elk, belittling Jack's shooting ability, and the dance continued. Ennis seemed to be the dominant one when their sexual relationship began and perhaps that's another reason why he was so taken aback to ride in and find Jack unexpectedly striking the camp. Everything was mixed up when the last day tussle happened and when Ennis was disabled with a bloody nose, that was the last straw. Unable to control himself, Jack, or events, he lashed out the only way he knew. Their subsequent 20-year relationship reeled more and more out of balance as time went on and Ennis called the shots, leading Jack to resort to more and more desperate measures, and finally ending in his death and Ennis's ultimate control over his life, which he found to be not worth living. 

There is a lesson here, that the ancient Way of the Tao sums up very well (which I will post very soon).

Wow lee!@
That was awesome! You nailed it all.

[chelseagirl]

My opinion is that Jack and Ennis's relationship changed over time, and the balance of dominance and receptiveness was fluid. At the beginning of the movie,  Aguirre bestowed dominance on Jack and he showed it by introducing himself, leading Ennis to the bar, taking control of the sheep, and instructing Ennis to "git, less we want to sit around and tie knots all day." But the balance began to shift as Ennis perceived that Jack had a tendency to bite off more than he could chew in selecting a low startle point horse. Ennis easily directed the dogs with his whistle and then switched places with Jack as the herder. A crucial turning point came when Jack again couldn't control his horse and Ennis thoughtfully watched him disappear up the trail. Shortly after, Ennis was laid low by a bear, and Jack was again "on top." Jack seized control by overreacting with anger at Ennis's lateness. Then, Ennis shot the elk, belittling Jack's shooting ability, and the dance continued. Ennis seemed to be the dominant one when their sexual relationship began and perhaps that's another reason why he was so taken aback to ride in and find Jack unexpectedly striking the camp. Everything was mixed up when the last day tussle happened and when Ennis was disabled with a bloody nose, that was the last straw. Unable to control himself, Jack, or events, he lashed out the only way he knew. Their subsequent 20-year relationship reeled more and more out of balance as time went on and Ennis called the shots, leading Jack to resort to more and more desperate measures, and finally ending in his death and Ennis's ultimate control over his life, which he found to be not worth living. 

There is a lesson here, that the ancient Way of the Tao sums up very well (which I will post very soon).

But why?  Why such a need for control?   To control Jack, to control the situation which he himself couldn't understand, did Ennis feel to control a situation where his sexual desire for Jack overwhelmed him, his own sense of what was "normal"? 

Ennis is so complex, I think he's one way, then I read the ss or watch the film, my perceptions change.

[Scott6373]

I think it's quite easy to say that Ennis dominated most their relationship with evergrowing control over the twenty years, but when I really pause to think about it, each man had control, respectively,  over the two aspects of a relationship that ultimately direct it:  Heart and mind.

Ennis, in his logical, albeit self deprecating way, kept the reality of their situation clearly in view, and always reminded Jack of it.  Jack on the other hand, knew instinctively, that Ennis needed to be with him, that it was vital to his soul to be with Jack.

When AP said that there can be no Jack without Ennis, and vice versa, perhaps what she meant, was there could be no true love without each man doing what came naturally and instinctively to them.  It's the old yin and yang thing.

[chelseagirl]

Did Ennis discovered this too late?

[loneleeb3]

I think it's quite easy to say that Ennis dominated most their relationship with evergrowing control over the twenty years, but when I really pause to think about it, each man had control, respectively,  over the two aspects of a relationship that ultimately direct it:  Heart and mind.

Ennis, in his logical, albeit self deprecating way, kept the reality of their situation clearly in view, and always reminded Jack of it.  Jack on the other hand, knew instinctively, that Ennis needed to be with him, that it was vital to his soul to be with Jack.

When AP said that there can be no Jack without Ennis, and vice versa, perhaps what she meant, was there could be no true love without each man doing what came naturally and instinctively to them.  It's the old yin and yang thing.

Absolutely!
Thats a great way of putting it. Jack was the heart of the relationship. Not that Ennis didn't love Jack, but Jack followed his heart where Ennis followed everything else but.