Author Topic: Getting hit hard by off-hand expression of contempt  (Read 6906 times)

Offline Mikaela

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Getting hit hard by off-hand expression of contempt
« on: May 14, 2007, 06:26:18 pm »
I looked around everywhere for some thread where I could put this, since I have this big huge fear of starting threads  ::) and have never done so before.... But I couldn't find an appropriate place so I'm posting this here to get it off my chest because it really did make a strong impression on me. It relates to an offhand remark in a TV program about a very serious topic in itself, an offhand remark that made me sad. And made me think of BBM and especially of Ennis.

I was watching a BBC docu-drama on TV yesterday; "Nürnberg, nazis on trial" from 2006. It's a mix of documentary recent-day interviews with people who were present at the trials, various original footage from 1945, and actors re-creating the trial as it goes ahead.  It was interesting, intense, well-made and thoughtprovoking. But.....

In the course of the episode (which focused on Albert Speer), there was also a fair bit of information about Fritz Sauckel, who had the chief responsibility for getting forced labour to Germany from the occupied territories, in order to manufacture weapons for Speer's war machine in Germany in WWII. Sauckel was depicted as a complete and utter cringing coward in the documentary. Nervous and frightened, shivering, moaning and groaning, taking no responsibility for his actions, blaming everyone else.

In the course of the program a US military man of the old school (I didn't catch his rank or exactly what he was doing at the trial) gave the following as his recent-day RL interview opinion of Sauckel (and I'm paraphrasing, but it's close enough to what was actually said): "S. wasn't a man, he was nothing but a big sissy. I wouldn't go as far as indicating that he was a homosexual, but he was a weakling, a coward, he could never have stood up for himself in a fight."

So..... here is this high-rank nazi, a contemptible war criminal, resonsible for the deaths or misery of literally millions of people, a man who was condemned to death for his deeds, evidently a coward, weak and nervous, eager to please the big shots no matter what he was told to do, unable to stand up for himself - but the speaker still wouldn't go as far as calling him gay?!?!? Even S hadn't sunk quite as low as to merit *that* level of contempt, had he?

(Incidentally, we later learned that S. had 12 kids, so it certainly wasn't his private life that contributed to our military man's bigoted statement).

I was shocked that BBC kept that statement from one of "the good guys" in the program. It speaks volumes and more about attitudes towards gay men that one would wish were long in the past by now. It had everything to do with expression of horrible prejudices and nothing to do in relation to describing Sauckel and his actions. Keeping that statement in the program indicated that the program-maker didn't even realize this; - as late as 2006!  >:(

Also, I think this illustrated perfectly not only what prejudices have been alive and may still be thriving in the military for the last 60 years and more..... but also very, very strongly reminded me what Ennis had to struggle with in his life. Not only the fear of being found out and outright killed, but the stereotypes he'd learned to completely accept, and the opinions he'd been brought up with and had internalized - and believed. That "queers" were worthy of nothing but contempt and ridicule, that they were pitiful cowards. That about anything wrong or bad you could otherwise do in your life would still be better than admitting to being "queer".   

moremojo

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Re: Getting hit hard by off-hand expression of contempt
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2007, 06:37:06 pm »
Thanks for sharing this, Mikaela, and congratulations on opening your first thread!

This one reference in your post says so much: military man of the old school. The old school did think this way, and many that are still around still do. Things have changed tremendously since this one man's youth, and will doubtlessly continue to change for the better, in regard to lesbigay issues, as, frankly, the old bigots grow old and die and the more enlightened youth assume positions of power and authority. I believe the 'don't ask, don't tell' policy will be thrown into the dustbin of history relatively soon.

At the same time, this does reflect the very real (and very legitimate) fears of Ennis, and sheds light on the struggles that he went through. Gay people historically have been unusual among repressed minorities in that they not only learn that the dominant culture hates and fears them, but that they learn to hate and fear themselves. It's a double whammy, and much needless suffering has resulted from what so many of us now recognize as the sickness of homophobia.

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Getting hit hard by off-hand expression of contempt
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2007, 08:12:21 pm »
Sadly, here in the US, macho men still reign supreme as the 'correct' expression of manliness.  I believe it was an Army general who was recently quoted and then criticized for his - personal - opinion that homosexuality was immoral.

If a man does not meet the criteria of quiet, stiff upper lip, skirt chasing machismo, then his sexuality is suspect.

This attitude is still extremely prevelant and especially so in the military.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2007, 09:12:43 pm by delalluvia »

Offline HerrKaiser

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Re: Getting hit hard by off-hand expression of contempt
« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2007, 10:53:23 am »
Sadly, here in the US, macho men still reign supreme as the 'correct' expression of manliness.  I believe it was an Army general who was recently quoted and then criticized for his - personal - opinion that homosexuality was immoral.

If a man does not meet the criterial of quiet, stiff upper lip, skirt chasing machismo, then his sexuality is suspect.

This attitude is still extremely prevelant and especially so in the military.


I don't agree with this stereotype. Over 30% of single parent households are headed by a man. the statistics show that most men share child rearing duties with their wives including shopping and inside home care. Like the 3-martini lunch, the stereotype that if men aren't 'quiet, stiff upper lipped, skirt chasers' they are 'suspect' is an out dated concept based on most factors and studies I see in the media and living situation. Trying to apply a 1945 wartime trial comment to currrent day society is risky, I think, in terms of true parallels is risky, imo.

Offline ednbarby

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Re: Getting hit hard by off-hand expression of contempt
« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2007, 11:28:03 am »
Kind of along these lines, I see the "Know Your State Motto" email is circling again, apparently because it's been updated.  Namely, the entry for Wyoming has been changed by some wizard somewhere to be "Wyoming: Where the men are men and the sheep are scared."  And in case that doesn't spell it out clearly enough, for the profoundly stupid people, they've added "(Home of Brokeback Mountain)".

Can't tell you how pissed off I was when I saw that.  Still am.

News Flash:  Homosexuality does not equal Beastiality.  Details at 11:00.

Fucking morons.

Totally agree with you, too, Mikaela.  That comment would have (and does) bother me, too.  I don't care that it's coming from an "old school" guy.  It's just yet another really sad commentary about how attitudes towards homosexuality are still so screwed up.
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Offline Mikaela

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Re: Getting hit hard by off-hand expression of contempt
« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2007, 12:04:49 pm »

Trying to apply a 1945 wartime trial comment to currrent day society is risky, I think, in terms of true parallels.

But the comment wasn't made in 1945, it was made recently. (The program didn't state when all these (by now obviously old) men were interviewed, but certainly gave the impression it happened in connection with making the docu-drama which is dated 2006.) So it was quite apparent the man interviewed had not changed his views over those long years since -45, and felt quite at ease about speaking this way, still.

However what made an equal impression on me was the fact that the program makers let this characteristic be included in the program. I'm sure they could have found other means and other people to describe the nazi in question, or they could at least have edited the statement made. To blithely allow that kind of contempt for gays to shine so clearly through (and thereby tacitly give the appearance of acceptance or indifference concerning this kind of sentiment) was thoroughly disappointing to me. Especially as it was made in relation to the Nürnberg trials when BBC might - and should - have given some though to the fact that gays were among those who suffered and died in the camps.


(As for relating the sentiments to Ennis, that's just my kind of stream-of-consciousness type of viewing a TV program. I still keep relating all sorts of everything back to Brokeback.)

Offline HerrKaiser

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Re: Getting hit hard by off-hand expression of contempt
« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2007, 12:31:39 pm »
Ah, I see your point, but if you think the producers/editors should have not included the interview, then none of this thread would exist. The man's comment is being positioned here as an indication of a commonly held point of view. If his comments was not known, then would people think there is less of this thinking in the world?

To me this is an issue of 'does a falling tree in the forest make noise if no one is present'. If the sequence was cut, there'd be no issue; I think it may be better to put forth information as unpleasant as anyone may take it in order to know what is going on. I personally find the comment disagreeable, but in the context of things, it falls way down my list of concerns. but, if it was cut from the final edit, no one would know how some people use 'weakling and sissy' as something related to homosexuality (he must not know about Alexander the Great).

but in reality, he must be pushing 90 years old by now, and people of his age are going to make comments, say things, etc, that are from their pasts that do not necessarily reflect their core beliefs or how the mainstream population thinks. Many people of that age group will call women, girls or honey and have less contempt about women than a boss who calls a woman Ms. Smith. They may use many non PC words/phrases just because of their age and I don't think there will be a resulting net negative impact from such.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2007, 12:42:15 pm by HerrKaiser »

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Getting hit hard by off-hand expression of contempt
« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2007, 09:02:44 pm »

I don't agree with this stereotype. Over 30% of single parent households are headed by a man. the statistics show that most men share child rearing duties with their wives including shopping and inside home care. Like the 3-martini lunch, the stereotype that if men aren't 'quiet, stiff upper lipped, skirt chasers' they are 'suspect' is an out dated concept based on most factors and studies I see in the media and living situation. Trying to apply a 1945 wartime trial comment to currrent day society is risky, I think, in terms of true parallels is risky, imo.

I would like to believe the attitude is changing, but I live in Texas, mein Herr.  The stereotype is large and in charge down here and no sign of it going away.  A man friend of mine recently told me that as a woman, what exactly my rights are to my own body is something that needs to be discussed and decided upon (by men).  A younger man I met on a Lord of the Rings film board scoffed when at the end of ROTK, the Aragorn character breaks into song.

He was contemptuous.  As if a warrior king would suddenly sing!  That was obviously an unmanly action.  And these opinions are coming from the current generation as well as the younger generation.

And yes, I've heard anti-gay slams from the teenaged crowd my cousin runs with.

It's sad.

Offline HerrKaiser

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Re: Getting hit hard by off-hand expression of contempt
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2007, 10:32:36 am »
I understand that your personal experiences include some situations that are unforntunate. But, one's few examples of a behavior do not indicate a pattern or ought be expanded to the entire nation or population. The idea that "..one man on the lord of the rings..." and "a man friend of mine..." would be in any way exemplory of most men is the essence of unfair stereotyping, imo.


Offline delalluvia

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Re: Getting hit hard by off-hand expression of contempt
« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2007, 11:04:50 pm »
I understand that your personal experiences include some situations that are unforntunate. But, one's few examples of a behavior do not indicate a pattern or ought be expanded to the entire nation or population. The idea that "..one man on the lord of the rings..." and "a man friend of mine..." would be in any way exemplory of most men is the essence of unfair stereotyping, imo.



True, my evidence is ancedotal.  But then what would you use to prove that things are changing?