Brokeback Mountain: Our Community's Common Bond > Brokeback Mountain Open Forum
What would it take to help Ennis be OK about himself?
serious crayons:
--- Quote from: Jeff Wrangler on June 06, 2007, 06:56:34 pm ---Actually, I just wish I could understand why you are so determined--or feel such a need?--to exonerate John Twist of homophobia. ???
--- End quote ---
Well, what an odd way to put it, Jeff. Makes it sound like I like him and am advocating on his behalf to get him off the hook. I'm only advocating on behalf of the way I see the scene.
Maybe this will help clarify. You've seen Lee's post above. Now let me tell you that I agree with pretty much every single thing she wrote -- EXCEPT the part about John Twist being homophobic.
I'm just saying it's possible to be a mean, hate-filled son of a bitch -- without being homophobic.
--- Quote ---Hunh? ???
I don't understand how you can agree with that--the comment being that John Twist was "a mean son of a whoreson bitch" who "didn't accept Jack" and "sure as hell didn't accept Ennis"-- when you also say that John Twist showed "an acceptance and understanding of their relationship"? ???
--- End quote ---
Again, I'm not trying to paint him as some kindly supportive dad. I totally agree that he didn't accept Jack -- just as lots of fathers don't accept their straight sons. And he didn't accept Ennis, just as lots of fathers don't accept their straight children's romantic partners.
What he did accept -- or at least seemed to understand, tolerate, voice no objections to -- was the idea that two men could have a long-term romantic relationship. And that it might even be OK for them to have it, even if it means breaking up a heterosexual marriage and family, as long as it gets the ranch licked into shape.
I'm not even trying to argue that he didn't have a homophobic bone in his body. Only that he didn't express any homophobia in that scene. I agree with Lee that his words mean much more than they indicate on the surface; I just don't think that's what they're indicating.
Jeff Wrangler:
--- Quote from: ineedcrayons on June 06, 2007, 09:37:02 pm ---Well, what an odd way to put it, Jeff. Makes it sound like I like him and am advocating on his behalf to get him off the hook.
--- End quote ---
Well, I'm afraid that's what it sounded like to me--like you were trying to convince a jury.
--- Quote ---I'm only advocating on behalf of the way I see the scene.
--- End quote ---
And how is this different from advocating that John Twist isn't homophobic?
--- Quote ---Maybe this will help clarify. You've seen Lee's post above. Now let me tell you that I agree with pretty much every single thing she wrote -- EXCEPT the part about John Twist being homophobic.
I'm just saying it's possible to be a mean, hate-filled son of a bitch -- without being homophobic.
--- End quote ---
Well, sure--except that he is.
--- Quote ---Again, I'm not trying to paint him as some kindly supportive dad. I totally agree that he didn't accept Jack -- just as lots of fathers don't accept their straight sons. And he didn't accept Ennis, just as lots of fathers don't accept their straight children's romantic partners.
What he did accept -- or at least seemed to understand, tolerate, voice no objections to -- was the idea that two men could have a long-term romantic relationship. And that it might even be OK for them to have it, even if it means breaking up a heterosexual marriage and family, as long as it gets the ranch licked into shape.
--- End quote ---
Gee, wouldn't I just love to watch if you were actually able to sit down with that old SOB and discuss that last paragraph. ... That a 60-something backwater Wyoming rancher nearly 30 years ago could be OK with two men having a long-term romantic relationship? I'm sorry, friend, but I grew up with relatives in my own family who were very like John Twist, and the very idea just beggars belief.
--- Quote ---I'm not even trying to argue that he didn't have a homophobic bone in his body. Only that he didn't express any homophobia in that scene. I agree with Lee that his words mean much more than they indicate on the surface; I just don't think that's what they're indicating.
--- End quote ---
And that, unfortunately, is what I will never understand--how you can come away from that scene and not see the homophobia that is so blatant and obvious to others as to not even need discussing. :-\
Clyde-B:
I'm not sure that OMT was all that homophobic.
Do you think Jack would have wanted to move back to Lightning Flat with a lover if he was?
Jeff Wrangler:
--- Quote from: Clyde-B on June 06, 2007, 10:22:15 pm ---I'm not sure that OMT was all that homophobic.
Do you think Jack would have wanted to move back to Lightning Flat with a lover if he was?
--- End quote ---
That suggests another question: Since Jack couldn't please his old man no how, why would he want to move back to Lightning Flat at all, with or without a lover?
If Jack's over-riding concern was to finally win his father's approval by licking the ranch into shape, perhaps he didn't even consider the implications of bringing a lover with him.
Brown Eyes:
Hey Buds,
Well it seems that Old Man Twist is as controversial as ever! Here's a link to an old thread here on Open Forum devoted to this as its very own topic (http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,1922.0.html). Thanks for jumping in here Clyde-B, you make an interesting point. I wonder if Jack might not have had any other clear plans as to how to start out on a life with Ennis. Jack didn't really have any money of his own (it's hard to know whether we should believe that L.D. would ever give him money for leaving) and Ennis certainly didn't have any money. So, my hunch is that Jack maybe thought that he and Ennis could go to Lightning Flat for a while and figure things out for themselves from there. I doubt Jack would have wanted to stay there permanently. But, there is that intriguing second building visible in some of the exterior shots of the Lightning Flat house. It's truly a falling-down shack that's uninhabitable... and there's been a suggestion here and there that this desolate structure represents the life together that could-have-been but was passed by for Jack and Ennis.
....
Leaving OMT aside for the moment, what else about the visit to Lightning Flat might have caused Ennis to change his view of not only his relationship with Jack, but also his perception of himself? Is there any other scene in the movie that has the equivalent force for Ennis regarding this issue of self-acceptance?
If we look back much earlier in the film, I think TS2 might be a very different but maybe equally powerful scene where Ennis learns to trust his instincts, feelings, desires, etc. Ennis's active decision to leave the fireside and seek Jack out in the tent (this time Ennis is not cold and Jack is not calling out to him as was the case just prior to TS1) involved a lot of courage and self-awareness even this early on. This is a moment when he does not allow his fear to direct his actions and overrides his fears in order to go to Jack. And the fact that he was so warmly rewarded by Jack's acceptance, reassurance and sweetness probably would have gone a long way towards Ennis developing positive impressions about his sexuality.
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