Jack Quit on Ennis? -- by taj_e

[TOoP/Bruce]

Jack Quit on Ennis? (SPOILERS)   
  by - taj_e (Sat Mar 11 2006 01:39:07 )
 
UPDATED Sat Mar 11 2006 22:32:02 

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This was in conjunction with strawbs04's OT on Questions on Ennis and Jack

I had the same question and it has been mind bogling
Am not very sure about the timing of Jack and Randall affair, how long it was. Someone said it has been 5 years which I doubt (anyone can explain the 5 years or the exact timing?)
IMO there's no indication that said, Jack gave up the two. It can be deduced that Jack gave up on Ennis, since 'last spring' when Randall was mentioned (this doesnt mean that Jack 'quit' loving Ennis)

Jack has always loved Ennis. There's no doubt about it. Even if Jack were to quit seeing Ennis, Jack knew who was his first love. Ennis will always be special with him. Jack is a risk taker. He never forget to mention the idea of living together with Ennis. Ennis might have been tired of the idea, until the best he can do was to avoid it by making fun of Jack. Remember the second last meeting? When Ennis asked about whether Jack ever had the feeling of someone knowing? And Jack was quick to say perhaps its better for Ennis to move out. Ennis made fun of it, suggesting Lureen to adopt the kids
Jack lied about Randall, and Ennis has been quiet about his inability to meet up not until November (Ennis was biting nail, typical of him)

Perhaps that was the time, Jack told the parents about Randall
It would have been devastating for him. Ennis has always been the sensitive one. Seeing Ennis fell and crying and couldn't stand it anymore. Jack may have love him so much, he decided to let him go (if you love someone, you would let him/her go free) Jack's mistake was perhaps, not to say it face to face with Ennis or simply didnt have the chance.
Remember, the last time he remembered or craved about was way back then when Ennis came on him from behind and hugged him and saw Ennis rode away and fade

The last meeting wasnt that long I suppose. Pretty much a little over from Spring upto November (September? what was the month Ennis wrote on the postcard, stamped deceased?) . It would be good if someone can explain the timing clearly

No. If Jack hadn't died, Ennis would never know. Ennis live and 'died' with his 'if you cant fix it Jack, you gotta stand it'
'Died' because he knew he can never fix it. If you read the book, he dreamt about living with Jack and the bean's can with the spoon handle. The spoon handle looks like the tire iron, symbolizes his fear of being caught together.
But Jack died and he got to know how much Jack would want them to live together. The sad thing is, even if Jack had 'quit' on Ennis (to release Ennis), Ennis wasnt. Why? Perhaps because Jack died and he came to know how much he meant to Jack. If Jack hadn't died, Ennis would have know Jack had left him and perhaps he would be able to love another and get on with his life.

It is sad to see how Jack has been all the while try to reach out to Ennis. To save him and to no avail. Jack would have died with Ennis, but I think Jack wouldnt want that. He doesnt think that would be the right thing to do, 'to stand it when u cant fix it'
He let go of Ennis and hope that Ennis would be able to love again.

We may think that the fact that Jack had an affair with Randall, made him looks like a hypocrite. I guess Randall was just an excuse for him to 'quit' Ennis. Randall was pretty much like Ennis himself. The quiet type, sensitive perhaps. I dont think Jack had ever try to cheat on Ennis (except the one shot at Mexico which is understandable) Randall provide him a way, to 'quit' Ennis. He may not be with Ennis, but someone who can fill in for him will do, for him to cherish Ennis, the shirts, the little things he had in his rooms and 'Randall' 
 
Re: Jack Quit on Ennis? (SPOILERS)   
  by - NewHorizons37 (Sat Mar 11 2006 16:49:04 )
 

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About the timeline: there has been a timeline thread. Jack and Randall meet in 1978; this is noted on a banner at the benefit dinner/dance they attend. Jack and Ennis' last meeting is 1981 in the screenplay and 1983 in the story (or it may be the other way around.) So if Jack and Randall got involved, and it started in 1978, and Jack's and Ennis' last meeting was 1983, that's how you get 5 years.

Ennis had written November on the postcard that got returned. As he had said when he last saw Jack, it would be November before he could get together again.

I personally don't believe that Jack's having an affair with Randall made him a hypocrite. For 20 years he wanted Ennis and only Ennis and made that clear. If Ennis had given him a life together I have no doubt Jack never would have strayed. But by the time he met Randall, Jack already knew that Ennis was not going to change the arrangement even though he was now divorced. Other threads have noted that after the devastation of that post-divorce scene, we never see Jack look happy again. Jack was not getting what he needs from Ennis, and another opportunity presented itself. Not what Jack really wants, but it is someone who was available and willing.

 Re: Jack Quit on Ennis? (SPOILERS)   
  by - strawbs04 (Sat Mar 11 2006 18:16:11 )

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Yeah, I saw the movie a second time yesterday, and I think I have a firm grasp on exactly Jack's relationship with all his lovers. Jack loved Ennis more than I can describe, because Jack could see the true good in Ennis. Jack was the only person Ennis really opened up to, and Jack got to see his true and good soul. This was the reason Jack couldn't quit Ennis, and Randall was only a way to compensate for his lack of time with Ennis. Hence, "The truth is, sometimes I miss you so much, I can hardly stand it." Lureen didn't give Jack the love he deserved, nor was she all the great a person, and even though Ennis was scared to live with Jack, he gave Jack did all of those things for Jack in his own way. The defining scene that stick out for me, is the flashback to Jack standing in front of the fire, and Ennis standing behind him talking softly.

For the notion of him telling his parents about Randall, before Jack and Ennis had their fight on their final meeting, Jack said that he was going up to "see the folks." He must have just been venting about their fight, and like his parents said, it came to pass. Also, Jack sent that final post-card that was marked deceased to Ennis telling him that he wanted to meet November 7th if November was the next time they'd be able to see eachother. If Jack was really that serious about Randall, he probably wouldn't seen Ennis again. Jack was just in "one hell of an unsatisfactory situation." I completely understand Jack's life, and it was so unfair that he and Ennis couldn't be together.

On another note, I have a theory that Jack was actually bisexual, and Ennis may have been strictly a homophobic gay man. Jack could easily had lived a good life with a good woman, but his total devotion to Ennis disrupted everything. No one could amount to Ennis. I do understand that you may think Jack might have been "cheating" on Ennis in Mexico, or with Randall, but Jack really only did those because of Ennis, and not because he needed to quench a gay lust. Ennis on the other hand, seemed like he was trying to live a life with a woman, only because he figured that's what he should have done. I think Jack actually was happy to get into a marriage with a woman and raise a kid, but his love for Ennis made it impossible.
 
Re: Jack Quit on Ennis? (SPOILERS)   
  by - taj_e (Sat Mar 11 2006 22:58:55 )
 
UPDATED Sun Mar 12 2006 01:42:18 

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Hey strawsb04 good to see you here
On Jack's side, I didn't see he has any problem with Lureen. For all we know, Jack was ever ready to leave Lureen any time Ennis gave him the green light

I have a second thought on why Jack told his parents about Randall. The 'anger' might have little to do with it. IMO it is more like the right thing to do. After hearing and seeing Ennis fell down and cried. Telling him that he can't stand it anymore. The fact that Ennis was asking him to let him be.
(There's another thread by Casey on the maledictions displayed on Ennis part that eventually lead to the above)
I think other than expressing their love towards each other, the only right conversation or decision for that matter was for them to get separated. Jack was telling Ennis how the relationship is going nowhere. And the thought that Ennis perhaps can be released of such 'suffering' and no matter how hurt it's going to be, he need to quit on Ennis. He never knew how and I guess 'out of love' he let Ennis go.
Come to think of it, it doesn't really matter if Randall was there or not

It never really occurs to me that Jack is bisexual. We never saw him hitting on a girl. Lureen was a mistake. He even told Ennis that he never really want a kid (in the book) and that everything that came on his hand was way out of his way. It was never planned. It just happened (except with Ennis)

Ennis, perhaps was more likely to be a bisexual (I dont really believe on all these labels). Ennis however knew who he loved. And no way he can love anyone the way he loved Jack

[TOoP/Bruce]

Re: Jack Quit on Ennis? (SPOILERS)   
  by - zigzo_pazoru (Wed Mar 15 2006 12:25:28 ) 
 

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...do you have the link to that Casey thread on you by chance?

I agree, I don't think Jack was bisexual at all. He lived a straight (lie)festyle with a woman, but it was all an act. As he says "We could do our marriage over the phone" and you know it's the truth. Nor do I think Ennis was bisexual, he didn't show much interest in anyone once he met Jack, Jack was his first and last (I'm assuming) love. Maybe he can find enough joy with his girls and grandchildren to live a worthwhile life.

I keep talking about Ennis like he's a real man living in a trailer somewhere. O_o;


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I'll quote whatever I feel like quoting, GOSH!! 


Re: Jack Quit on Ennis? (SPOILERS)   
  by - taj_e (Sat Mar 11 2006 22:42:13 ) 
 
UPDATED Sat Mar 11 2006 22:59:59 

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NewHorizons37
Thanks for explaining the timeline and the postcard
5 years is kinda long IMO Jack might have been serious that it was a risk he took when he mentioned that he might be shot anytime (he lied about who he was with though)

Yes, I didn's think Jack was a hypocrite either. Thanks for reminding me how the post-divorce didn't really had much effect on Jack other than the opposite
 
Re: Jack Quit on Ennis? (SPOILERS)   
  by - kthstewart (Wed Mar 15 2006 13:06:34 )
 

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Twenty years is a very long time and it is no wonder that Jack thought that it was "one hell of an unsatisfactory situation." Jack though had been to Mexico more than once. Because he has same as told Ennis so in their last meeting and Ennis is very angry. Jack also tried to pick up the rodeo clown. I don't think Jack ever did love Randall or actually want to have an affair with him. He just thought that Ennis was a hopeless situation and he didn't want to live on one or two "high altitude *beep* a year" like Ennis was content to do. So Randall was just a fill in.

Despite her coldness I really don't think that Lureen had anything to do with Jack's death. At least I hope she didn't but her voice is very business like and cold as she tells Ennis about Jack's death. I just don't know what happened but Jack's sexual orientation was enough to get him killed in Texas in 1983. 

Re: Jack Quit on Ennis? (SPOILERS)   
  by - taj_e (Sat Mar 18 2006 13:16:15 )
 

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zigzo, you might have already found it, just in case...
Ennis's Maledictions – SPOILERS http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0388795/board/flat/35009762

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0388795/board/thread/38162748?d=38162748#38162748 
 
Re: Jack Quit on Ennis? (SPOILERS)   
  by - spiceylife (Sat Mar 18 2006 21:29:28 )
 

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Taj,

I agree completely with you about Jack letting Ennis go - in fact, I think this is the first time I've read that anyone views this scene in the same way that I did.

It's just my humble opinion, but I too felt that Jack was experiencing his own anguish and pain, but maybe hadn't realised that Ennis was feeling the same way, albeit in his own repressed way. Jack was venting his feelings to Ennis, but when Ennis finally disintegrates before Jack's eyes like he does, Jack witnesses such pain from the person he loves so much that I think he makes the decision to try to leave Ennis. I think it hurts Jack to see Ennis like that, the person who epitomises 'standing it' falling to pieces and telling Jack that he can, honestly, no longer 'stand it'.

As Jack has probably already been having an affair with Randall, a substitute for Ennis, I feel that Jack then makes the decision to try to 'quit' Ennis, to give Ennis a chance to be happy, if he can. The ultimate sacrifice! Whether Jack could've stayed away is another thing, but telling his parents about Randall after the lakeside scene and particularly his recall of their loving embrace from decades before is what I see as the first step in that process. Jack looks so unhappy after that scene, as he watches Ennis drive away, that I think his mind is made up.

And, despite poor Ennis's plea to Jack to 'quit' him, it is Ennis who initiates contact with Jack again, trying to arrange the November visit. I'm not sure that Jack and Ennis could've ever finished with each other, but certainly Ennis wasn't ready to break off the relationship. People always seemed to stick with Ennis for so long, knowing that he really was a good man, but in the end I think everyone gets so tired of waiting for Ennis that they have to leave (or he pushes them away), one way or another.

I don't think that Jack was a hypocrite for being with Randall. His heart would always belong to Ennis, just as Ennis's heart was devoted to Jack, but Jack had waited for 20 years or so. He was approaching middle age and obviously needed companionship with someone that involved being together more than 2 or 3 times a year. And so he went for it, which, in the end, may have been the cause of his tragic death.

In answer to your question, I think it's around six months from the final scene (May?) to when the 'Deceased' postcard comes back to Ennis (October?).


Ya might wanna watch it therre - I have a low startle point.   

[TOoP/Bruce]

Re: Jack Quit on Ennis? (SPOILERS)   
  by - taj_e (Sun Mar 19 2006 11:41:24 )
 
UPDATED Thu May 4 2006 07:02:15 

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spiceylife
The fact that Ennis contacted Jack again shows how much he was stucked with his 'standing it' (6 months is long, not to mention 20 years)
Which lead to his knowledge about Jack's grace/self-sacrifice=Jack's ultimate love for him. How BBM ended in a 'redemptive' way