BbM's Portrayal of Gay Men -- by redhowe

[TOoP/Bruce]

BBM's portrayal of gay men   
  by redhowe     (Tue Nov 14 2006 20:13:17 )   

Hi Guys,

I saw this film last Friday and just can't get it out of my mind - like many of you I too seem obsessed! Thanks to all those of you who've welcomed me into your lovely group.

I had some thoughts on how this film will change people's attitudes to gay people. It had such a profound impression on me and, as I've mentioned in a previous post, it's made me feel like going out and campaigning for gay rights. I have a few questions for you...

Firstly, in BBM Jack and Ennis are two very masculine gay men, but in all my years of going out to gay clubs with gay friends I've found this to be the exception. Clearly Jack and Ennis weren't on the gay 'scene' which explains that but my question is, why are so many gay men effeminate? If I'm right about this (and you're welcome to disagree) is this 'campness' something that's evolved as a kind of signal to other gay men to say 'I'm gay'? Ie did it arise out of the need to avoid the nightmare situation we see in BBM where Jack flirts with the clown only to be rejected, and to avoid becoming the victim of gay bashing?

Also, if all gay men were very masculine like Jack and Ennis, would they be better accepted by straight people? Maybe straight men would be better able to relate to them (fishing, beer and football etc), or maybe they would turn against gay men even more because they felt in some way infiltrated or betrayed?

Just to let you know my agenda, I'm a straight, married woman but one of my best friends is gay and I spent much of my youth on the gay scene with him. I would like to see BBM as a landmark that begins to transform the way gay and straight people see each other. We still live in a society that is uncomfortable about homosexuality, scared by it, and I hope this film breaks down some of those barriers. Even in cities gay people still feel threatened walking down the road holding hands, and there are rural areas where the kind of homophobic violence we see in BBM is still rife.

This is my prediction: fifty years from now there will be no gay clubs, no gay scene, because being gay will be seen as a normal though not commonplace thing, kind of like having red hair. If a gay man approaches a straight man in a bar there will be no anger or hate, just a 'you're not really my type, mate, but thanks.'

I hope I'm right. Any thoughts?

Re: BBM's portrayal of gay men   
  by Shasta254     (Tue Nov 14 2006 20:31:36 )   

Hi, Redhowe--nice to have you on the BBM board. It's a good place for the BBM- obsessed.

The few gay men/boys whom I know or have known have been effeminate. Even when they were trying to "like" girls, they still seemed so. I don't know why that is. Of course, I have never lived in a major city or even a very large city, so my exposure to the gay lifestyle is limited. I think that I could get along better with a man who is masculine, no matter what his sexual orientation. Your post is thought-provoking, and I guess we will have to wait until a gay man replies to know the answers.

"Gettin' tired of your dumbass missin'!"

Re: BBM's portrayal of gay men   
  by ka_baerchen     (Tue Nov 14 2006 20:35:07 )   
   
UPDATED Tue Nov 14 2006 20:46:57
Hi,

"Firstly, in BBM Jack and Ennis are two very masculine gay men, but in all my years of going out to gay clubs with gay friends I've found this to be the exception. Clearly Jack and Ennis weren't on the gay 'scene' which explains that but my question is, why are so many gay men effeminate?"

As a gay man I can guarantee you that there a lots of gay men actually pretty masculine. Masculinity even has a very big impact on gay people, you find the most masculine men among gay people and not among straight people. Masculinity is much of a sexual presentation and almost like a teasing game and has nothing to do with sexuality itself or feelings whatsoever. Interestingly, this aspect is far more common among gay people.
You might know some gay subcultures with the excessive image of masuline men like "bears" for example. Those subcultures are actually very predominant among gays.

Like you said, you were talking about the "gay scene" and the gay sene has more to do with fashion, lifestyle and music than with "being gay", if you know what I mean. The gay culture uses gayness as a feeling to define itself from other lifestyles, often referred to it as the "fashion gays". The point is, this gay scene is very effective in adverstising itself and emerged as the general image of being gay, which is not.
You will find lots of lots of gay people who dismiss the "gay scene" for that and don't ever want to deal with it, even more so than straight people.

The truth is, people who are living their real gay life have nothing to do with the "gay scene", the gay scene represents just like 20% of the gays around the world...

Re: BBM's portrayal of gay men   
  by redhowe     (Wed Nov 15 2006 06:37:18 )   
   
Interesting - thanks for this ka_baerchen. Can you tell me how the other 80% of gay men meet if they aren't on the scene? Maybe a lot of it happens via internet dating nowadays?

Re: BBM's portrayal of gay men   
  by NewsMonster     (Thu Nov 16 2006 04:52:55 )   
   
I have to say, ka_ba, that I don't agree. As a straight guy in NYC, I returned from the military and as it happens, found construction and odd-job work working in a small jewlery facory owned by a gay couple. Through them, I found lots of other work for wealty New Yorkers that needed work done by someone trustworthy. About 50% of the people I worked for were gay, and there wasn't a single masculine one in the bunch, not even the apparent "bears." If masculinity had a scale from 1 to 10, I'd say the best I've seen was a 5.

That's not to say hetero men are more masculine, but they are more often more masculine. I've known a few that were a 2 or 3 that weren't gay, and that probably lead to a lot of confusion for other people in their lives, and maybe for them too.

While I don't think the masculine homsexual male is the loch ness monster or anything, I have yet to come across one. But as far as movies go, the most convincing combination of masculinity and homosexuality was Val Kilmer in "Kiss Kiss Bang Bang." Gandalfini tried to pull it off in "The Mexican" but it seemed like more of a gimick for the movie than a believable character.

Re: BBM's portrayal of gay men   
  by doelcm     (Thu Nov 16 2006 06:00:35 )   

UPDATED Thu Nov 16 2006 08:31:07

I returned from the military and as it happens, found construction and odd-job work working in a small jewlery factory owned by a gay couple. Through them, I found lots of other work for wealty New Yorkers that needed work done by someone trustworthy. About 50% of the people I worked for were gay, and there wasn't a single masculine one in the bunch, not even the apparent "bears."
You worked for a gay couple that you didn't find masculine. Then you work for friends of theirs, and you don't find their friends to be masculine. There's no mystery here.

If you don't see masculine gay people, it's because you don't go to where they hang out in groups. (And some of them DON'T hang out in groups.) If you meet these masculine guys individually, and they don't have some reason to tell you they are gay, then you assume they are straight, which artificially increases the apparent masculinity of the straight male population.
-----
I love Mister Bungee--yes indeedy (here's your ziti)!

Re: BBM's portrayal of gay men   
  by blackvanilla     (Thu Nov 16 2006 10:14:50 )   
   
Please. I'm gay and I've met more "masculine" gay guys than "feminine" gay guys in my lifetime. Many of these guys were more masculine than your average straight male.

Quit stereotypying. Gays come in all shapes, sizes, n colors, and from all walks of life. The reason why u don't see "masculine" gay guys is maybe because.....um.....they're not as OBVIOUS as the queeny ones?? And I highly doubt your limited exposure/experience in that little jewelry shop represents gay men as a whole (that's assuming you're not making this up, which sounds a lot like it frankly).

Sheesh.

Go - Black Vanilla- go!   
  by toycoon      (Thu Nov 16 2006 10:34:56 )   
   
Quit stereotypying. Gays come in all shapes, sizes, n colors, and from all walks of life. The reason why u don't see "masculine" gay guys is maybe because.....um.....they're not as OBVIOUS as the queeny ones?? And I highly doubt your limited exposure/experience in that little jewelry shop represents gay men as a whole (that's assuming you're not making this up, which sounds a lot like it frankly).


Neither Ennis nor Jack realize they're gay. They just think they like each other enough to have sex together. No one would ever suspect that they harbor homosexual feelings because they aren't attracted to the usual, sterotype interests of the 'modern' gay man. They don't even possess 'gaydar'.



I used to rely on my gaydar but I quit paying the bill and it got disconnected.

Re: Go - Black Vanilla- go!   
  by ClancyPantsNasty     (Thu Nov 16 2006 11:15:52 )   
   
Hi blackvanilla --

I understand what you're saying. Here's something interesting from my life... probably 95% of the men I know are married with children. I can think of about a half dozen right off the top of my head who are effeminate; yet, they are straight and married and I have never had a hint from any of them that they are really gay underneath. This whole business about gays being feminine and straight men being masculine is just a stereotype. I agree with your comments about masculine gay men. I only know maybe 10 men who are "self-described" as being gay and only one of them is effeminate. The others are very masculine. In fact, women in my circle still try to fix them up with women. They never try to fix the effeminate man up with a woman. It's all stereotypic pigeon-holing.


Hi toycoon --

I like your tagline. Very funny!

[TOoP/Bruce]

Re: BBM's portrayal of gay men   
  by NewsMonster     (Thu Nov 16 2006 11:59:49 )   
   
I'm not trying to stereotype, I merely pointing out my observations. My observations were not limited to a jewelry shop. In fact, it was a factory, it was not a shop at all. And over the course of the two years I was working odd jobs, the men I worked for had businesses involving jewelry, fashion, antique, cars, art and balcony landscaping.

I'm sorry if I've offended anyone, but I don't think that any answer you don't like about you or your brethren should be considered stereotyping. Maybe what I observed was a fluke.

Lastly, why would I make this up, and what would make it sound so? Do ex-military people not work after being discharged? Do not some gay men employ straight men? I'm sure it would be easier to dismiss my observations if you thought they were not true, and you clearly would like to dismiss them, but that is not reason to disbeleive them.

Re: BBM's portrayal of gay men   
  by stephen-mellor      (Thu Nov 16 2006 12:18:47 )   
   
NewsMonster,

I don't think you're making it up. Rather, I think we're all confusing two things: Effeminacy and Homosexuality. There is is *some* correlation, to be sure (if only because a straight man who would like to act in an effeminate way will go out of his way not to, for fear of being labelled 'queer'), but the extent of the correlation is unclear.

We can observe an effeminate man by simply looking around, but there's no sign that says "gay" on anyone. Only if they self-declare can we know for sure, and that knowledge may influence our observations about effeminacy. For example, if a man whom you thought straight, one says "I'm gay", suddenly that 'effeminate' mannerism you'd never noticed before is evidence.

Effeminacy is being used (in some discussions) as a surrogate for plain old homophobia. "I have no problem with gays, but I can't stand those effeminate type/queens/etc." I have read it argued that straight-acting gay men who claim that the parades and the queens set us back politically are guilty of homophobia themselves. (I'm afraid I plead guilty, but I'm rehabilitated.)

But what's wrong with effeminacy anyway? The very concept is a stereotype.

Re: BBM's portrayal of gay men   
  by dav0001     (Thu Nov 16 2006 12:48:59 )   
   

It's probably been said before but I'll repeat it. Many people have met gay men or lesbians and not known it because they show no traits which people expect from them. The gay man is not effeminite and the lesbian is not butch, so you don't think they are gay or lesbian because you've never been exposed to or taught this.
Some simple examples using celebrities. If you see Liberace you'd automatically think he's gay. If you saw Rock Hudson you wouldn't. One matches what people have been taught is gay, the other doesn't. I met Rock myself and it wasn't an act he put on for the public. He's the same on camera as off so you can't say he's a gay man pretending to be straight. It's just a matter of breaking stereotypes and understaning people better.

Re: BBM's portrayal of gay men   
  by redhowe     (Sat Nov 18 2006 05:51:59 )   
   
> We can observe an effeminate man by simply looking around, but there's no sign that says "gay" on anyone. Only if they self-declare can we know for sure, and that knowledge may influence our observations about effeminacy. For example, if a man whom you thought straight, one says "I'm gay", suddenly that 'effeminate' mannerism you'd never noticed before is evidence.

Good point. My husband is regarded by many as being 'effeminate' but has never had gay tendencies. He just has more confidence in himself than many men, and hence no real need to 'prove' his masculinity constantly.

Re: BBM's portrayal of gay men   
  by NewsMonster     (Sat Nov 18 2006 06:19:03 )   
   
That's a good point. My work came from a circle of friends that I had tapped into, but I knew going into any job that the guy was gay, so I suppose that could have lead to a skewed observation.

Another thing that just occurred to me is that wealthy city folk don't tend to be tough guys. If I'd worked for a series of wealthy straight men, I might have had the same statistical level of masculinity.

Still, I am having a very hard time believing that homosexuality and effeminacy have absolutely nothing to do with one another. Here's a thought. If you speak another language (I speak Japanese) go to a restaraunt of that type and you will notice that if that language has a femanine and masculine way of saying things, there will be some native speaking effemanite waiters who will speak in the femanine. I would argue that these men are gay. Not only are they effemanite, but they are making a consious choice to speak like a woman.

I am sure that the masculine homosexual isn't using this language, and most gay men in general do not, but no straight man is going speak like this if he can help it.

Ironically, I speak that way sometimes because I learned from listening to my wife, but most Japanese people who pick up on it think it is funny and tease me about it.

Re: BBM's portrayal of gay men   
  by redhowe     (Sun Nov 19 2006 19:37:35 )   
   
Funny you should say that because I can always tell if my husband is talking to a woman or a man when he's on the phone. When he talks to a man he sounds more 'blokey' and when he talks to a woman his voice is softer.

> Still, I am having a very hard time believing that homosexuality and effeminacy have absolutely nothing to do with one another.

So do I because of my friendships with gay men to date, but what do we know? Now I've started thinking about this I've certainly met gay men who aren't effeminate, and probably plenty more than I know of because with many of them I probably assumed they were straight :-)

Re: BBM's portrayal of gay men   
  by bytebear     (Thu Dec 7 2006 23:50:37 )   
   
Being a gay man, and not particularly "swishy", I hang out with a fairly masculine crowd. Some use "straight-acting" but that is somewhat offensive to some who don't like to stereotype. My observation is that you heteros out there only recognized gay men when yout gaydar goes off, and it usually only recognizes the effeminite ones. so my guess is you know a lot more gay men than you think, but you just don't know they are gay because they aren't obvious. If you want to see butch gay guys, go to a leather bar instead of a dance club, or go to a gay rugby league game. the "bears" can be more butch, but all too often they are just old fat guys with beards. Remember, Rock Hudson was gay, and so are a lot of Hollywood actors, professional athletes, and other famous people that you would never guess. If they can hide it, they will.

[TOoP/Bruce]

Re: BBM's portrayal of gay men   
  by stephen-mellor      (Thu Nov 16 2006 16:45:58 )   
   
Well said, ChthHecate!

And I agree about Kiss Kiss Bang Bang. It was a very funny movie , and did just a little to break down the stereotypes.

Re: BBM's portrayal of gay men   
  by gggim25     (Thu Nov 16 2006 16:50:34 )   
   
There are gay clubs...and then there are clubs where typically masculine men socialize. Tremendous difference, trust me on that one. Motorcycle and cowboy bars are generally more rough and tough...most people who frequent 'gay clubs' don't feel as comfortable in those types of establishments.

Re: BBM's portrayal of gay men   
  by gggim25     (Thu Nov 16 2006 20:49:38 )   
   
TxMike Says, "...the choice to have romantic relationships with those of the same sex."

Now...ignorance is frightening enough on it's own. What's even more frightening in this situation, to me, is that TxMike actually BELIEVES what he says, as being actual truth!

Based on his comments, I would assume that TxMike is actually bisexual in his orientation. He is seemingly basing his belief system on what he himself is familiar with, that is to say, his own feelings. Therefore, to HIM...sexual orientation is a choice.

What TxMike obviously DOESN'T know, is that homosexual orientation is now much more proven to be genetic than was previously known. This is speaking outside of same-sex experiences, which a large percentage of society takes part in during certain parts of their lives, and outside of bisexual attractions. We're speaking of twin studies, where a dominant genetic predisposition towards homosexuality is obviously evident.

Now, if TxMike were a professor of human sexuality or biology, I might be a bit more prone to listen to his words. However, since he simply is a fellow human being who is speaking of how he feels, I cannot take any of his words as truth or fact.

Sorry TxMike! Your boat ain't floatin' here. Points for tryin' tho.

Re: BBM's portrayal of gay men   
  by dav0001     (Thu Nov 16 2006 22:43:13 )   


The thing is, Tex seems to think that what he feels is fact for everyone else and anyone who disagrees with him is 100% wrong.
and not entitled to their feelings.

Re: BBM's portrayal of gay men   
  by NewsMonster     (Sat Nov 18 2006 06:06:20 )   

I personally don't need a scientist to tell me that it isn't a choice. My logic is this- I never chose to be straight. Furthermore, (theory here) I'd bet gay love is no better than stright love, and there seems to be a lot of downside (stereotyping, general flack).

Lastly, on conversion, while there are men out there that might beleive that they can rock my world, there is nothing anyone is going to do to make me gay, what makes anyone think they can do or say something that makes a guy straight?

Re: BBM's portrayal of gay men   
  by Clyde-B     (Sat Nov 18 2006 09:47:18 )   
   
<< there is nothing anyone is going to do to make me gay, what makes anyone think they can do or say something that makes a guy straight? >>

Exactly!

Which is why we wonder just how secure these conversion advocates are in their own sexuality.

They seem to also be the ones that believe there are only effeminate gays.

Can you imagine a scene more ludicrous than one with these hyper-masculine guys being strong-armed into having sex by a swishy effiminate gay?

If they truly believe what they say they believe, what are they afraid of?

Re: BBM's portrayal of gay men   
  by NewsMonster     (Sat Nov 18 2006 06:22:53 )   
   
Another great movie was Millers Crossing. It broke down gay stereotypes so much I didn't realize Mink, Bernie and Dane were all gay until the third time I saw the movie.

The first two times I was sure I was missing something. Once I realized it I was like "Ohhhhhh!" Now I feel like an idiot for not noticing in the first place, but I just couldn't see it.