This is a classic REPOST from TOB
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a phallic Jungian tangle *spoilers* by - malina-5 2 days ago (Sun Sep 10 2006 02:16:32 )
I was doing some research on Jung today as part of something I'm getting paid to do. I like Jung; he had much more humility and was much more interesting than Freud and seemed to be quite a sweetie.
Of course I was thinking of BBM characters while I was reading about the Jungian archetypes as story characters.
There's the hero. He is on a quest; he leaves society to attain wisdom, and the story reaches completion when he returns to enrich society. The hero also rescues the maiden.
The hero has to do all that, but he doesn't know how to do it on his own. He needs help and guidance from the wise old man.
The hero needs to have a "mana personality". "Mana" is wisdom. It's what he gets from the wise old man. But... interestingly enough, "mana" comes from the phallus in older cultures. Yes. It is true (according to Jung). The penis is more about transmitting wisdom than about sex or power.
So, when we apply this to BBM, the first thing that is apparent is that there is something really wrong with the wise old man archetype as depicted in this story. With old men and the penises (wisdom) associated with them, to be precise.
1. Earl. An old man who might, under other circumstances, truly fulfill that role in that he lived the life that appears ideal and out of reach for Jack and Ennis. Earl's wisdom (penis) is taken away from him, and he is killed, because he used it in a way that was not approved by society. What could have been a helpful archetype to Ennis (in his role as the hero) becomes a terrifying cautionary tale of lack, deprivation and violence.
2. Ennis's father. He might have "done the job" himself. At any rate, he is the reason why Ennis is affected by Earl and what happens to him. And he is also dead, therefore absent and no use, unable to advise the hero.
3. Old Man Twist. In the short story, there is a disturbing reference to his pissing on Jack when Jack was a small boy - in other words, using the phallus, which should be wisdom, in a hostile manner. What also comes out in this scene (closely associated, in Jack's mind, with the incident itself) is the fact that his father's penis (wisdom) is different from Jack's. Jack is "dick-clipped" and the old man isn't. This isn't the reason for the hostility in this scene, but it's related. The two are incompatible. Old Man Twist cannot be the wise old man for Jack. (Jack even says, in a different context, that the old man "never taught me a thing".)
THE HERO: I think Ennis and Jack share this role to some degree. It's more apparent in Ennis - he's the one that has to leave and then return to society, he's the one that has to be tested and to change - but Jack is also the hero in that we see him questing, driving cross country to see Ennis, in search of a 'sweet life'.
But the hero needs the wise old man to help him... and that's what's utterly lacking here. Worse than lacking, actually. The relationship with the wise old man has been transformed into something dark and destructive. Maybe this is because the old wisdom is incompatible with the new (just like Jack's penis and his father's). At any rate, the hero is unable, at first, to fulfill his quest because he can't access help or wisdom from the wise old man.
RESCUING THE MAIDEN: Ennis fails at this at least twice, maybe three times. Then at the very end he succeeds.. but only after he has, at last, gotten the help he needs.
Alma, at the beginning of their marriage, fits the maiden archetype. Ennis lets her down.
Later, Alma Jr. (as a teenage girl) is the maiden. When she asks Ennis for help (to come and live with him), he can't give it.
We could also say that to some degree, Jack, as Ennis's lover, is the maiden. Actually, Jung did say that the roles were not necessarily limited by gender. A man can be the maiden, a woman can be the hero. This is the most poignant and complete failure. Regardless of whether Jack died in an accident or was murdered, he died because he was alone and there was no one to help him. Being alone was the one thing he hadn't wanted. Because Ennis as the hero lets him down, Jack is forced to drive long distances alone. Of course he doesn't die on his way to meet Ennis, but that doesn't matter. He dies alone on a road, in great need of rescue.
RESOLUTION: It is in the Lightening Flat scene that things are corrected and resolved.
1. In this scene, Ennis is wearing the same jacket that his dad wears when taking the boys to see Earl. Ennis is on his way to correcting that previous damage/ deficiency by becoming the father, the wise old man, himself.
2. Finding the shirts: When Ennis finds the shirts, he realizes that Jack kept a momento of him from that first summer. But because of the way the shirts are arranged (Jack's embracing Ennis's) Ennis realizes something more: for the past twenty years, there has never been a moment when he hasn't been (symbolically) embraced by Jack. That's the moment of transformation. It's as though the power and persistance of that love makes up for all the past deficiencies, and now the hero is released and can function as hero.
3. Blood on the shirts: Blood is about life and fertility. The stories about the holy grail quest give us some of the most typical (well, archetypical) heroes in all of literature, and what they were searching for was the cup that held Christ's BLOOD.
Ennis goes to Lightening Flat in search of ashes. He is hoping only to find something dead. Instead of leaving with ashes, he leaves with blood - his and Jack's, joined.
I love his "yes sir" when Old Man Twist says "We've got a family plot and he's goin' in it." He says it so readily. He knows that he's got something more valuable than ashes. He's come away with the real prize.
'Family plot' - so, patriarchy, the 'traditional' family. That's where the ashes go. Ashes are the deadest thing there is. The old man's patriarchal standards are therefore dead too. There's no future in the kind of society that he stands for.
But Ennis has the shirts with the blood, and that's the valuable, living memento. That's what has a future.
FINAL SCENE:
1. Alma Jr., the maiden, makes a request and this time Ennis is able to grant it. After three unsuccessful tries, he is able to rescue the maiden.
2. By reversing the shirts, he is now giving Jack what Jack always needed... Ennis's constant presence, love and protection.
3. After fulfilling the quest, the hero typically returns to society and brings new wisdom to it. His promise to attend Alma Jr.'s wedding is his promise/ plan to return to society - weddings typically re-affirm societal values - and he carries his new wisdom with him. As Ennis becomes the wise old man, he will fulfill that role armed with new wisdom, having himself been the victim of the inadequacies of the old model and then having developed past that. He will live by what he has learned... He promises. He states that promise in the last line.
Sorry this is so long. I had to write it or I'd keep thinking about it..
Re: a phallic Jungian tangle *spoilers*
by - CaseyCornelius 1 day ago (Sun Sep 10 2006 06:50:54 ) Ignore this User | Report Abuse
UPDATED Mon Sep 11 2006 19:12:40
malina"
I am speechless and stunned by your Jungian exegesis of the story. It is amazing how consistent and compelling you have made the imagery fit the Jungian archetypes, weave together so much which has been discussed about the film -- the notion of the shirts representing a blood-brotherhood or ancient Bruderschaft for example -- in yet another all-embracing vision of the film. AND you've blasted open the film and story with new potential for discussion.
So many of the insights you offer are singularly novel - I had not realized that Ennis is wearing the same style and color of jacket which his father was wearing in the 'Earl revelation' and how much Ang Lee [and designer Judy Becker] must have intended that potent detail to 'close' a circle in the story.
Other archetypes and angles we could explore with you are the obvious castration images and integrating the blood on the shirts as a notion of the life-giving, 'washing away of the sins of the fathers', and extending and amplifying the idea of Jack even more as a true 'Christ' or 'redeeming figure'.
One potent image that came to me in reading your post was in seeing the 'old man' images as so thoroughly integrated and the possibility that this might be combined or connected with the archetype of a gaping phallic 'eternal wound which never heals' such as that of Amfortas in the Parsifal legend. The gaping bloody wound Ennis witnesses at the age of nine in Earl has been linked with the eviscerated sheep at which Ennis shudders following the first night in the tent. There's an obvious connection to be made there.
I'll look forward to seeing what discussion this amazing post of yours elicits
and thank you for bringing this haunting post to the board. I had resolved to give up on this Board and not return due to the awfulness of some of the recent troll activity and the seeming inability and lack of action of the administrators in removing it. But, your post has given it a new life.
I can commiserate with your feeling you had to get these compelling thoughts out on page no matter the length of the post - I felt the same way when the links between the film and Virgil's Aeneid suggested themselves to me in the Classical Allusions thread. It felt not so much that I was writing, rather as if it were being dictated to me.
So many thoughts malina. Mine, for what they're worth:
by - LauraGigs 1 day ago (Sun Sep 10 2006 11:26:57 ) UPDATED Sun Sep 10 2006 12:47:06
"The hero has to do all that, but he doesn't know how to do it on his own. He needs help and guidance from the wise old man."
Another interpretation is that Jack fulfilled that role for Ennis. Of course, Ennis and Jack both suffer from the lack of a wise, loving father figure in their lives. But unlike Ennis, Jack does not enter the picture defeated by this. Jack is truly a "miraculous spirit", both literally and in the deeper sense.
"...there has never been a moment when Ennis hasn't been (symbolically) embraced by Jack."
Which supports an idea of Jack as a spiritual guide for Ennis. If not literally Jack-as-Jesus, definitely as an enlightening, inspiring figure. Jack is born in an uninspiring environment and lives in suffering. But he posesses a spirit that is optimistic, inspiring — "believing in miracles". Miracles he beseeches Ennis to believe in as well.
"The penis is more about transmitting wisdom than about sex or power."
On other threads discussing biblical imagery and Brokeback-as-Eden, someone questioned whether Jack represented the snake, presenting Ennis both with wisdom and the opportunity to sin. But the obvious opposing imagery with Jack carrying the lamb, crossing water, and offering healing counters this. It is fitting to conclude that Jack is a general provider of inspiration and enlightenment, more fitting with your Jungian archetypes, Malina, than with simpler good-or-evil allegory.
"the hero typically returns to society and brings new wisdom to it. His promise to attend Alma Jr.'s wedding is his promise/ plan to return to society. . . Ennis becomes the wise old man, he will fulfill that role armed with new wisdom."
Some felt the Alma Jr. scene seemed "tacked on". But it's crucial that the film ends there — leaving us with the emphasis on the coming generation. It proves your point of Ennis as a mentor (and IMO, renders moot the question of other romance in Ennis' future).
After his life experience with Jack reaches its culmination and resolution in the discovery and attainment of the bloody shirts, Ennis ends his "quest" cycle (with its sidetracks and dead ends represented respectively by Cassie and John Twist). He has adopted a monastic lifestyle ("don't have nothin; don't need nothin") existing as a guide/priest figure for the next generation. Ennis is saddened and worn by his (emotionally) torturous journey, but contented and fulfilled in his role to come as Mana.
Re: So many thoughts malina. Mine, for what they're worth:
by - malina-5 1 day ago (Sun Sep 10 2006 11:54:24 ) Laura,
I just read your post and kept saying "yes" to myself (maybe even out loud). You have taken the analysis deeper, and in a way that totally resonates. I agree with you here:
<<Another interpretation is that Jack fulfilled that role for Ennis. Of course, Ennis and Jack both suffer from the lack of a wise, loving father figure in their lives. But unlike Ennis, Jack does not enter the picture defeated by this. Jack is truly a "miraculous spirit", both literally and in the deeper sense. >>
Jack plays other roles too (I had started out by thinking of both him and Ennis as the hero, later I wasn't so sure) but I think this might be the best definition of what Jack is. He does fulfill that role for Ennis. The deficiency that was present from the beginning is addressed, and that is miraculous. Personally, I don't think it's going too far to say Christ-like. One of the fanfics on that link you sent me refers to Jack's death as a sacrifice. I don't disagree.
About Jack representing the snake in Eden... as far as I know, the original meaning of the snake symbol was also wisdom. Actually, I think the snake is indistinguishable from the phallus. The good/evil dichotomy was Judeo-Christian, and a later innovation.
From a Christian prespective, or from the perspective of the failed/ outdated fathers in the story, sure, Jack and the snake/phallus did represent evil. But Ennis's quest is a movement beyond that perspective and into a new one - one in which the snake is wisdom and Jack is love. Only after Ennis has internalized those values and been healed by them can he become, as you say, the mentor/guide for the new generation.
So the story is about a personal journey, but also about the progression and transformation in society.
Re: a phallic Jungian tangle *spoilers*
by - malina-5 1 day ago (Sun Sep 10 2006 12:06:38 ) Thank you for this response, CasyCornelius.
<<Other archetypes and angles we could explore with you are the obvious castration images and integrating the blood on the shirts as a notion of the life-giving, 'washing away of the sins of the fathers', and extending and amplifying the idea of Jack even more as a true 'Christ' or 'redeeming figure'.>>
More and more, this is the conclusion I am coming to.
BannerHill's "why do we care" (about the movie and characters) thread really got me thinking. There are many reasons why we care, some personal of course, but some are universal and run very deep. Some stories are more than "just" stories.. and this is definitley one of them. No wonder we are endlessly fascinated and feel changed by it.
I empathize with your feelings about the board and the recent troll activity. I can accept that some of what this film stirs up in people is such that it makes them angry or frightened, but I hate the ugliness.
Re: So many thoughts malina. Mine, for what they're worth:
by - LauraGigs 1 day ago (Sun Sep 10 2006 12:38:18 ) UPDATED Sun Sep 10 2006 20:17:14
Malina, I just want to emphasize that my post is just "another take" — definitely not a debate on the brilliant ideas in your OP. Jack's spirit is miraculous in that he seems to posess it in the absence of a wise male figure in his life, but this miracle falls short of being able to prevent the story's tragic arc. Whereas the presence of a true "father figure" for each of them may have been able to — which totally proves your original point.
Other random thoughts:
One idea about the holy grail is that it represented Mary Magdalene as the bride of Christ. An idea downplayed to the point of obscurity (by patriarchal scholars in their process of cherry-picking the "true" gospels) in favor of Christ's relationships with — and influence on — his male desciples. Interestingly, the BBM filmmakers and we viewers (blush) have done that as well: Jack's influence on Ennis is seen as his principal act of heroism; his marriage and fatherhood relatively insignificant.
Judaism — the basis for and precursor to Jack + Ennis' Christianity — is passed through the matrilinial line. Ennis and Jack each draw their spiritual and nurturing strength from their mothers. (Jack's "my mother believed in the Pentecost" and Ennis' humming of a bedtime song — frequently hymns sung by mothers in those days — to Jack).
Re: So many thoughts malina. Mine, for what they're worth:
by - fernly 1 day ago (Sun Sep 10 2006 15:02:45 ) UPDATED Sun Sep 10 2006 15:58:57
Wonderful ideas, Malina, Casey, and Laura,
Thank you!
For a while now I've been puzzling over Annie's selection of place names. Her choices provide two details in support of Ennis as hero seeking wisdom and "Jack as...an enlightening, inspiring figure" since Ennis' hometown is Sage, and Jack's is Lightning Flat.
I'm thinking now there're some interesting journeying images to look at in light of your ideas.
Ennis has to leave his home, and the received (deadly) 'wisdom' he was taught there by his dead (but unfortunately internalized) father. His father and mother died on Dead Horse Road (a horse being a traditional mode of travel for a hero). Neither of his parents could help Ennis journey any further. Ennis' father will, in fact, keep him from traveling as far as he should have. ("My dad was a fine roper" and he surely kept Ennis well-hobbled and tied up in knots.)
Also, the pickup Ennis uses to get to high school broke down when the transmission went, so he couldn't get to that source of transmitted knowledge. Later, Jack tells Lureen that Ennis' current pickup still won't get him very far. (He hasn't yet learned enough.) In the lake scene, Ennis says he's only traveled around the coffeepot. And in the story prologue, it seems as if he's still doing that. The movie's more hopeful ending, as you've all said, has Ennis acting on what he's learned from Jack by promising to hazard another journey, to Jr.'s wedding.
I wasn't sure before if Jack has ever directly proposed to Ennis that they go together to Lightning Flat to live. Now I would expect that he did, more than once, and Ennis rejected him every time. Ennis finally has to go, alone and mourning, to Lightning Flat to get the enlightenment he refused during Jack's life.
"on the mountain, flying in the euphoric, bitter air"
Re: a phallic Jungian tangle *spoilers*
by - retropian 1 day ago (Sun Sep 10 2006 17:35:06 ) UPDATED Sun Sep 10 2006 17:44:05
Hooray! I was hoping someone would start a thread to discuss the films motif's from a Psychological aspect. I'm just not articulate enough to have started it myself: were to begin, were to begin?? I used to be really into Carl Jung via Joeseph Campbell and thought their ideas could be appropriately applied to BBM.
I'm in agreement with all the insightful posts, and posters so far. You all have expressed great ideas and interpretations, BRAVO!
So here is my little contribution, which I've posted before, but it's relevant here. The Bear Scene:
When Ennis encounters the bear and is thrown from his horse, receiving a head wound, means (IMO) his true nature has burst though unexpectedly in an unguarded moment to consciousness. Hence, his head (conscious mind) is bruised, but not his heart. The bear (like love) is of nature, it represents Ennis's primal nature which he has been trying to tamp down. When it suddenly emerges with force; he is thrown to the ground (like Paul on the road to Damascus?) I think Ennis has a realization there, and after that his and Jacks friendship really starts to grow.
Re: a phallic Jungian tangle *spoilers*
by - malina-5 1 day ago (Sun Sep 10 2006 17:37:26 ) <<he is thrown to the ground (like Paul on the road to Damascus?) I think Ennis has a realization there, and after that his and Jacks friendship really starts to grow. >>
I love this!
Wow, fernly
by - LauraGigs 1 day ago (Sun Sep 10 2006 18:50:03 ) UPDATED Mon Sep 11 2006 14:53:29
The name "Lightning Flat" for Jack's home always felt significant to me. It conjures images of vulnerability: as you exist in that space (a flat, shelterless plane) you're in constant danger of lightning strikes. With the cliche' of lightning as the wrath of God/Zeus and consequence of sin, it's fitting that the Twist home featured a prominent cross and pentagram — symbols of (and for) protection and appeasement.
And that vulnerability to consequence / short karma followed Jack everywhere (such as his humiliation by Aguirre and rejection by Jimbo).
And Jack's demise fit his origin: either "struck down" as a consequence of straying from the straight herd (like the sheep), or in an accidental, sudden burst of the tire.
Remember the thunderous sky the morning after the first tent scene when Ennis sees the sheep? (Along with the other death imagery and unique music, played only when Ennis finds the sheep, reads of Jack's death, and finds the shirts.) At the same moment, Jack washes Ennis' shirt in the river (& the sun is shining where Jack is).
"...a notion of the life-giving, 'washing away of the sins of the fathers', and extending and amplifying the idea of Jack even more as a true 'Christ' or 'redeeming figure'."
I agree the washing/cleansing motif may be significant: Jack attempts to cleanse Ennis' wound from the bear attack (great, retropian). And both when Ennis first hears Jack's name after Brokeback, and hears of Jack from Alma again (as she rips away at his denial) he is washing his hands.
Re: So many thoughts malina. Mine, for what they're worth:
by - malina-5 1 day ago (Sun Sep 10 2006 22:25:30 ) <<Judaism — the basis for and precursor to Jack + Ennis' Christianity — is passed through the matrilinial line. Ennis and Jack each draw their spiritual and nurturing strength from their mothers.>>
This seems very important, too. I know that Jack's mother has a very significant role in the 'transformation' in the Lightening Flat scene. She was obviously the one who nurtured Jack while he was growing up and Ennis certainly draws strength from her as well, in the Lightening Flat scene. To me it seems as though she is almost channeling Jack's presence - Jack's love - to Ennis. It's through her that Ennis gets the shirts/ blood - the prize in his quest.
As the patriarchal values that Old Man Twist (and society in general) stands for are found lacking and destructive, Jack's mother offers an alternative. That someone like Jack came from Old Man Twist is almost inconceivable (no pun intended). The transmission of Mana through that line is broken, non-functioning. But he came from his mother's line as well. That one flows better.
I think there is more to be explored here..I'm just not finding the words right now.
Re: So many thoughts malina. Mine, for what they're worth:
by - (name removed by request) 22 hours ago (Mon Sep 11 2006 05:12:18 ) Little bits on lightning and its symbolism (from the National Weather Service Web site):
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Early Greeks believed that lightning was a weapon of Zeus. Thunderbolts were invented by Minerva the goddess of wisdom. Since lightning was a manifestation of the gods, any spot struck by lightning was regarded as sacred.
The Navajo Indians hold that lightning has great power in their healing rituals. Sand paintings show the lightning bolt as a wink in the Thunderbird’s eye. Lightning is associated with wind, rain and crop growth.
Even Santa Klaus gets into the act with his reindeer Donner (thunder) and Blitzen (lightning).
Genghis Kahn forbade his subjects from washing garments or bathing in running water during a storm.
Recently some scientists have concluded that lightning may have played a part in the evolution of living organisms.
---
Re: a phallic Jungian tangle *spoilers*
by - runip_hu 21 hours ago (Mon Sep 11 2006 06:23:09 ) Malina, I have nothing to add to your amazing analysis, I just wanted to thank you for sharing it.
I do hope you consider developing it more and publishing it somewhere else, even if on a different website, because this forum can get pretty nasty at times.
Re: a phallic Jungian tangle *spoilers*
by - yaadpyar 18 hours ago (Mon Sep 11 2006 09:40:34 ) Really nice analysis. Interesting how society is turned on its head when elders do not possess wisdom, and the feminine is abandoned to an uncertain fate. Amazing to find a new perspective after all this time.
"You see Bob, it's not that I'm lazy, it's that I just don't care."
Re: a phallic Jungian tangle *spoilers*
by - latjoreme 17 hours ago (Mon Sep 11 2006 10:37:42 ) Fantastic analysis, malina! And nice additional contributions, Casey, Laura, fernly, retropian and (name removed by request).
I am more and more amazed by the genius of the story. How could Annie Proulx have juggled all these mythologies, legends, religious symbols and so on in conceiving the story? Or do you think she wrote it first, and then drew out and emphasized certain aspects later to strengthen those connections? Or, as Jung might say, did they enter the story because the symbols and mythologies are universal archetypes in the first place -- tied to each other, present in Annie Proulx's unconscious, emerging of their own accord as she wrote (though no doubt becoming conscious ideas at some point)?
Or what?
Any way you look at it, it's astounding.
Re: a phallic Jungian tangle *spoilers*
by - littlewing1957 15 hours ago (Mon Sep 11 2006 12:16:12 ) UPDATED Mon Sep 11 2006 12:18:53
Malina, I avoided reading this for a few days in hopes of finding quiet time to take it all in. I couldn't wait any longer and now I can't even speak. I'm blown away!
Re: a phallic Jungian tangle *spoilers*
by - momoro 15 hours ago (Mon Sep 11 2006 12:53:16 ) I am responding here right now primarily to preserve my access to this thread in my archive for easier future reference. Thanks to all, and especially to you, malina-5, for providing this kind of analysis to all serious lovers of this great film, and for maintaining the kind of committed engagement to this life-changing work of art that was such a defining feature of this IMDb message board.
I will be returning here for more detailed reading, and possible replies, as time allows.
Nothing compares, I think, when thinking right, to a good friend.
Re: a phallic Jungian tangle *spoilers*
by - Front-Ranger 14 hours ago (Mon Sep 11 2006 13:25:59 ) Thanks for providing the link to this interesting thread over on Bettermost. I thought I was going to die of boredom over there! In answer to your questions #2 and #3, katherine, IMO the answers are yes and yes. I read that the story went through more than 60 revisions!
I would just like to clarify about the snake allusion. The snake, as Jung tells us, is a symbol of the feminine. Even though it has the same general shape as a penis, it evokes the image of an undulating woman in the throes of lovemaking. It may seem farfetched, but this is what I've read in several places. A good book that takes Jungian philosophy even farther is "The Goddess Versus the Alphabet" , one of the best theoretical works I have ever read. I'll post more details about it here.
Front-Ranger
"There ain't no reins on this one."
Re: a phallic Jungian tangle *spoilers*
by - latjoreme 13 hours ago (Mon Sep 11 2006 14:23:27 ) <<In answer to your questions #2 and #3, katherine, IMO the answers are yes and yes. I read that the story went through more than 60 revisions!>>
I read that, too. So yeah, I'm inclined to think she wrote it, or at least conceived the plot and characters, then emphasized this or that to bring out these things. But I think that writers sometimes find their own minds provide the archetypes and mythologies, or at least hints of them. It's almost magical.
Malina, your post is so intriguing I'm inspired to search the house for my copy of "Man and His Symbols"!
Re: a phallic Jungian tangle *spoilers*
by - (name removed by request) 7 hours ago (Mon Sep 11 2006 19:58:42 ) ----------
LauraGigs wrote:
Ennis and Jack each draw their spiritual and nurturing strength from their mothers.
----------
Note that Bobby gets neither physical nor emotional nourishment from his mother. Lureen does not breastfeed him, nor does she particularly care about his success in school. At Thanksgiving, she makes a point of telling Bobby the punishment he’ll get for not following the rules, whereas Jack emphasizes the reward.
Re: a phallic Jungian tangle *spoilers*
by - malina-5 2 hours ago (Tue Sep 12 2006 01:48:16 ) <<Or, as Jung might say, did they enter the story because the symbols and mythologies are universal archetypes in the first place -- tied to each other, present in Annie Proulx's unconscious, emerging of their own accord as she wrote (though no doubt becoming conscious ideas at some point)? >>
This would be my guess. After all, these achetypes/ legends are familiar to us on some level. They are in fairy tales, in mythology, there are a thousand echoes; that's why they're powerful. I think she wrote it from an instinctive place, which is not to say that she didn't realize what she was doing long before the end of the process.
the fisher king
by - malina-5 1 hour ago (Tue Sep 12 2006 02:26:21 ) CaseyCornelius, this was really inspired by your response to the original post. You mentioned Amfortas in the Parsifal/ Perceval legend and the "wound that never heals". I looked it up - it is the Fisher King legend, which is actually very confusing because there are several sources and contradictory facts. For example, some say there are two fisher kings, a father (or grandfather) and son... other sources meld the two into a single fisher king.
But the relevant (I think) things are consistent:
1. The fisher king is wounded... in the leg or in the groin. It is a wound that never heals, and though he is (sometimes) the guardian of the holy grail, being around the grail and the staff (I'm not sure what the staff is.. somehow associated with the grail, anyway) causes him pain.
2. The fisher king is sometimes mute.
3. In French (the original language of some versions of this tale) the words 'fisher' and 'sinner' are almost the same.
4. The fisher king is incapable of moving about on his own.
5. Perceval heals the fisher king. Perceval was raised in the mountains, in the wilderness, away from society, by his mother. His lineage through his mother's side is always emphasized. He is related to the Grail kings through his mother. Perseval travels to the fisher king's castle (by a river).
6. I don't quite understand this.. but apparently the Fisher King could have been healed at any time if only he'd asked Perceval about the grail.
I need to find out more. As I said, this is a very old and ambiguous legend.. really its incorporation into the Arthurian canon was a re-telling, because there are much older, Celtic roots.
But nevertheless. Is is just me, or does it remind you of someone?
Here's what I think:
1. The wound in the leg/ groin, the wound that never heals - as CaseyCornelius pointed out, that's Earl, but then Ennis was also wounded by having seen Earl. We could say that Earl's wound was transposed onto him, in a sense. Interesting, that Earl scene.. it's the only scene with Ennis's father in it, but we don't really see Ennis's father, we see Earl instead.. Earl who could have been Ennis's predessor, in that he lived the 'sweet life' Jack wanted with Ennis, in that he suffered the fate Ennis feared. Some of the legends have two, multi-generational fisher kings, who are still somehow indistinguishable from one another. If Earl has the fisher king's wound, so, I think, does Ennis.
2. The fisher king is mute.. Ennis doesn't talk.
3. The fisher king can't get around on his own. Neither can Ennis. Thank you, fernly, for pointing this out. Ennis's pickup won't take him far. He's only traveled around a coffee pot. In the very first scene, he's gotten a ride from a trucker, he does not get there on his own.
4. Fisher/ sinner? "You may be a sinner, but I ain't yet had the opportunity". And then he did.
5. Perceval and his mother's line. Jack and his. Perceval was raised away from society... Jack's acceptance of his sexuality somehow suggests that he was, too. Anyway, the point is that Perceval was like a breath of fresh air. Perceval was transformation, and could heal the fisher king where no one else could... I don't know much about Perceval, really. Sometimes it seems like there was an element of the trickster or fool to him, too. But he was the only one who could heal the fisher king.. and renew his land, which had become a wasteland.
6. "Me and Jack.. we was fishin' buddies."
I want to find out more about this legend. I am quite fascinated by the fisher king now. I don't think, btw, that it in any way negates the previous analysis with Ennis as the hero... it's just different pieces, different elements. I love this, it gives me a way of obsessing about the story that is not sappy or depressing..
Re: the fisher king
by - bjblakeslee 3 minutes ago (Tue Sep 12 2006 03:52:39 ) How delightful to find another inspired reading of this small story, well told...
Utterly brilliant!
"All those moments, will be lost in time like tears in rain..."
