O that blue, blue shirt of yours (classical Chinese references in BBM)
by - weewitch (Sun Feb 26 2006 18:07:15 ) I originally posted the following reply under "2 minute Ang Lee interview in Chinese" but would like to start a new thread about this particular topic, so I've copied my posts and other people's replies here:
by - weewitch 21 hours ago (Sat Feb 25 2006 20:05:20 )
UPDATED Sat Feb 25 2006 22:10:02 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are quite a few threads on this board about Western classical literary references in BBM. Here is a Chinese one.
Although the film is set in Wyoming, the theme about cowboys in love, the language in English, Ang Lee has subtly incorporated many Chinese cultural elements in his filming. A while ago, I posted a thread about the Ying and Yang colors of the cowboy hats. Someone mentioned that almost every scene contained the five forces of nature – metal, wood, water, fire and earth.
Ang Lee chose the Chinese title for his film. Instead of “Brokeback Mountain”, he transliterated it into “Broke-arm Mountain”, hinting that the loss of love between the two men is similar to losing a sibling, which in Chinese culture is regarded as one of your limbs.
After watching this clip (thank you ellemeno for posting it) I got thinking – what would Ang Lee have named this film if it were set in China and filmed in Chinese? (esp knowing that Ang grew up with a curriculum better versed in classical Chinese literature than the mainland schooling, I figured he would most definitely have employed classical references or analogies, just as he did in "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon").
My guess is - he probably would have named it “Qing Qing Zi Jin” (pronounced ching ching dze gin) – a line taken from “The Book of Songs” (Shi Jing), collected and edited by Master Confucius, some dating back over 2500 years ago. It is the earliest book of classical poetry in Chinese history.
This particular line means “O that blue, blue shirt of yours”. What follows in the poem is “You You Wo Xin” (pronounced yo yo woa shin). The poem is as follows:
O that blue, blue shirt of yours
Remains with my heart intertwined
Although I cannot visit upon you
Whither a note from you shall I find?
qing qing zi jin
you you wo xin
zong wo bu wang
zi ning bu si yin?
The reference doesn’t stop here. If you can find Cao Cao (or Tsao Tsao)’s famous poem “Short Ballad”, in which he quoted those two lines from "Shi Jing", you will see that the entire theme is uncannily befitting of BBM, even though Cao himself at that time meant for something else
. (Cao was one of the most famous politicians and military strategists in Chinese history, who lived during the Three Kingdom era – around 220 ad, whose son became the first emperor of the Wei Dynasty).
Anyway, I know this thread attracts attention of Chinese speakers from all over the world. I don’t know where else to find you guys.
WO MEN DOU AI LI AN SHUSHU
(We all love Uncle Ang Lee.)
wsp416's reply
by - weewitch (Sun Feb 26 2006 18:09:39 ) by - wsp416 20 hours ago (Sat Feb 25 2006 21:29:51 )
UPDATED Sun Feb 26 2006 01:37:19
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Funny that you mentioned specifically this famous poem. You know the Chinese gay community and some critics believe this poem is in fact depicting the love of a man for another man. I used to think it was funny (to make such association). Now I sort of agree. The more I read it, the more I see it.
BTW, I think the Broke-arm Mountain is not the official translation of the movie.
WO MEN DOU AI LI AN SHUSHU
(We all love Uncle Ang Lee.)
Re: wsp416's reply
by - weewitch (Sun Feb 26 2006 18:11:51 ) by - weewitch 14 hours ago (Sun Feb 26 2006 03:24:47 )
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>You know the Chinese gay community and some critics believe this poem is in fact depicting the love of a man for another man.<
I wasn’t aware of such an association. Thank you for sharing that. I’m better informed now
.
>BTW, I think the Broke-arm Mountain is not the official translation of the movie. <
I read in the media coverage that Ang Lee chose this title. I see both being used now and it's a bit confusing.
>I used to think it was funny (to make such association). Now I sort of agree. The more I read it, the more I see it. <
If you think this is funny, the fun doesn’t stop here. In Cao’s ballad, after quoting those two lines, he followed with something like “because of you, I’ve been reciting this poem till now” (dan wei jun gu, chen yin zhi jin.) You know how you can derive various meanings from any given line in Chinese literature. If you interpret “gu” as “past, death”, then these lines assume a completely different meaning:
O that blue, blue shirt of yours
Remains with my heart intertwined.
Now that you have passed away
I’ve hummed its elegy till this day.
What elegy?
Jack, I swear…
WO MEN DOU AI LI AN SHUSHU
(We all love Uncle Ang Lee.)
stevme's reply
by - weewitch (Sun Feb 26 2006 18:14:02 ) by - stevme 9 hours ago (Sun Feb 26 2006 09:01:17 ) Ignore this User | Report Abuse
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This is excellent analysis, and I hope you will provide us with further insight into the Asian dimensions in this film, which must be there, whether Ang Lee consciously thought about it or not, given his background and culture.
The two shirts are perhaps the most powerful symbol in the film, besides the mountain itself, and you provide an historial and cultural dimension to which we Westerners are blind.
This line of thought is DEFINITELY worth an article for publication somewhere, and, I hope, eventually posted to this board.
WO MEN DOU AI LI AN SHUSHU
(We all love Uncle Ang Lee.)
Re: stevme's reply
by - weewitch (Sun Feb 26 2006 18:17:33 ) Thank you stevme for your kind words and encouragement. I’m just happy that I can share some of the Chinese aspects in this very Western film with non-Chinese speakers. Despite the official ban on BBM in mainland China, the media and the people are just crazy about Ang Lee, and of course, extremely proud of him as well. Everyone marvels how finally we’ve got someone who transcends while at the same time combines the vast differences of Eastern and Western cultures with such aplomb, deftness and perfection.
There are indeed many more Chinese cultural elements buried in BBM. Just to give you a few more examples about the quantities of silent moments in this film:
When you learn Chinese ink painting, the first thing your master teaches you is – liu bai tian di kuan – meaning “leaving blanks broadens the horizon”. You are never allowed to fill every corner on a frame but must leave a lot of white/blank space. Ang Lee has employed this technique so that he leaves the audience with an enormous space for interpretation, analysis and imagination.
A famous line from a famous poet of the Tang Dynasty states – ci shi wu sheng sheng you sheng – “silence (at the right moment) surpasses sounds” (the unspoken speaks louder than words). There are many moments like this in BBM for us to savor.
Finally, when Ennis discovers those blood-stained shirts – just imagine how many directors would have ruined this moment with melodramatic sound effect and unbridled emotional discharge. Ang Lee exercises great constraint. He lets the audience be shaken with “hearing thunderbolts in silence” (yu wu sheng chu ting jing lei).
Hope to receive more input from other posters. Thanks!
WO MEN DOU AI LI AN SHUSHU
(We all love Uncle Ang Lee.)
Re: stevme's reply
by - stevme (Mon Feb 27 2006 06:52:12 ) I'm delighted you have reposted your thread and added additional comment. Already we are receiving some additional insight from other Asian viewers.
I guess from a Western perspective, a general question might be: "What is typically Chinese about Brokeback mountain?"
As to silence and the shirts, I must disagree somewhat. I was watching this scene with great care on my 3rd viewing (to the extent I was able through blurred vision from tears). As you say, there is total silence as Ennis enters Jack's room and as he begins to examine elements in the closet. However, just as he notices the shirts and touches them and then recognizes them, Ang does add some soft violin background to give emphasis to this critical moment in the film. I have done a little editing myself and am aware how music, at the precise frame required, can add dramatic punch. In this case, it is done with extreme delicacy. It could have worked without any music whatever, since at this point in the story, in one of her most beautiful paragraphs, Annie Proulx writes:
"The shirt seemed heavy until he saw there was another shirt inside it, the sleeves carefully worked down inside Jack's sleeves. It was his own plaid shirt, lost, he'd thought, long ago in some damn laundry, his dirty shirt, the pocket ripped, buttons missing, stolen by Jack and hidden here inside Jack's own shirt, the pair like two skins, one inside the other, two in one. He pressed his face into the fabric and breathed in slowly through his mouth and nose, hoping for the faintest smoke and mountain sage and salty sweet stink of Jack but there was no real scent, only the memory of it, the imagined power of Brokeback Mountain of which nothing was left but what he held in his hands."
And we see Ennis breathing in, as Annie describes in her story, searching for Jack's memory. Without music we would have been better able to hear Ennis drawing in his breath. If you have ever tried to recall a loved one, you know what she is talking about when she mentions "no real scent, only the memory of it ...," even the scent of him is gone. Heath plays this moment to perfection.
Re: stevme's reply
by - starboardlight (Mon Feb 27 2006 17:41:22 ) However, just as he notices the shirts and touches them and then recognizes them, Ang does add some soft violin background to give emphasis to this critical moment in the film.
I'm not sure if "soft violin" is the right description. The music is the death theme. We first hear it when Ennis comes upon the dead sheep. We hear it again when Ennis tells of seeing Earl's dead body and during his phone call with Lureen. Despite the quietness, it's a rather harsh and violent piece of music. but I'm getting off topic. thank you for your insight into film editing and let's get back to Classical Chinese references.
Re: stevme's reply
by - stevme (Thu Mar 2 2006 18:08:57 ) Starboardlight, you are right, I got off topic. I did mean to convey, however, that the addition of music transforms utterly a visual image; it's not the same anymore. It's a change on the order of magnitudes. My recollection is that the music added was, at least initially, quite soft and unobtrusive, but I may be wrong on this.
Re: stevme's reply
by - weewitch (Sat Mar 4 2006 17:07:36 ) Stevme:
I finally coordinated my schedule with my husband's and watched the film again for the third time (his second viewing). I paid very close attention to that shirt scene - held my breath, nearly suffocated
- and am eager to tell you that I DID hear Ennis INHALE at the shirts. The sound effect is definitely there! Ang Lee did not miss or let music override that important detail.
Now I can have a good, long sleep...
WO MEN DOU AI LI AN SHUSHU
(We all love Uncle Ang Lee.)
Re: stevme's reply
by - muscla_1 (Thu Apr 6 2006 21:49:54 ) "The shirt seemed heavy until he saw there was another shirt inside it, the sleeves carefully worked down inside Jack's sleeves. It was his own plaid shirt, lost, he'd thought, long ago in some damn laundry, his dirty shirt, the pocket ripped, buttons missing, stolen by Jack and hidden here inside Jack's own shirt, the pair like two skins, one inside the other, two in one. He pressed his face into the fabric and breathed in slowly through his mouth and nose, hoping for the faintest smoke and mountain sage and salty sweet stink of Jack but there was no real scent, only the memory of it, the imagined power of Brokeback Mountain of which nothing was left but what he held in his hands."
THAT was the line that made me completely lose it when I read the story back in '97.
This is a way cool thread!
"Jack, I swear..."
Brokeback Mountain Chinese title
by - vshwong (Sun Feb 26 2006 18:44:26 ) The literal translation of the official Chinese movie title is exactly "Broke Back Mountain", not "Broke Arm Mountain". "Broke Arm", is a very commonly used analogy in Chinese martial arts novels to describe one's determination to end a relationship or situation. You cut one of your arms off with a sword and say, "now I owe you nothing!"
However, when you say "broke back", it doesn't mean you are chopping someone into two pieces in the waist, it means that one's pressure is so much to bear it breaks your spine.
Some interesting tidbits about Brokeback Mountain playing in Asia:
Since Ang Lee was born in Taiwan, when he visited Taiwan to promote his movie, he was treated like a superstar. The week the movie premiered in Taiwan, it got box office number 1, as Taiwanese flocked to support Lee's movie.
Brokeback Mountain is Singapore first movie to show homosexual acts. It's rated adult, can only be seen if one is 21 or older. Since this movie is getting so many international awards and praises, Singapore has to act "international" and allow this movie to be played in theatres or they will look as bad as China or Malaysia.
China, of course, bans this movie. (They also banned "Babe" because they reasoned that pigs don't speak human language) That leads to a very huge phenomenon in China - it became the number one seller of pirated DVDs. Everyone has to see it because it was so "outspokenly" banned.
Re: Brokeback Mountain Chinese title
by - xiquest (Mon Feb 27 2006 05:29:44 ) Brokeback Mountain is Singapore first movie to show homosexual acts.
Well, not exactly. I live in Singapore and some years ago i saw a french film called 8 Femmes that had some pretty overt homosexual references, and it wasn't age-restricted (i was 15 when i saw it). Just thought i'd point that out =) That said, Brokeback is the first film we've seen here that depicts homosexual love-making. I'm really glad it wasn't banned, and in fact there was some lobbying in the local media for it to be rated M-18(18 & above) instead of R-21 so it could reach a wider audience.
Oh and weewitch, i was wondering where you got the info about the official title of BBM. When i saw the film there were chinese subtitles and the title was translated as "duan bei shan" (literally, broke-back mountain). The "broke-arm" theory's pretty interesting.
Re: Brokeback Mountain Chinese title
by - ken_lee54 (Mon Feb 27 2006 22:22:24 ) >Brokeback Mountain is Singapore first movie to show homosexual acts.
This is so not true. What would you call "Mysterious Skin" (shown uncut) then? Child play?
Re: Brokeback Mountain Chinese title
by - muscla_1 (Thu Apr 6 2006 21:52:57 ) China, of course, bans this movie. (They also banned "Babe" because they reasoned that pigs don't speak human language) That leads to a very huge phenomenon in China - it became the number one seller of pirated DVDs. Everyone has to see it because it was so "outspokenly" banned.
Since over 90% of DVDs in China are pirated, that translates to a HUGE viewership.
Thank you, Ministry of Culture!!!
"Jack, I swear..."
Re: Brokeback Mountain Chinese title
by - babebegud (Wed Apr 26 2006 23:44:56 ) I'm Chinese and I live in mainland China. Please excuse my English.
I do not agree that BBM has become the number one seller of pirated DVDs and everyone has to see it, or that there is a huge viewership here. I don't have numbers, but I think aside from a certain group of people who're well educated and open-minded, and have a decent understanding of English language (Ennis's mumbling in his accent...just too hard for us non-english speakers to get, and yes, the translation and English subtitles in the pirated DVD is lousy and extremely misleading!!!), not many people here are so eager to see this movie or are very impressed after viewing it.
As much as I LOVE this movie after I saw it about two months ago and I ordered a copy from Amazon to get the correct English subtitles, I can't find someone around me, my family, friends and co-workers, with whom I could discuss about it let alone share the same feelings. I'm frustrated but am glad to find this board. There is a Chinese board dedicated to BBM, but it's way quieter than this one and sorry, most posts there do nothing other than scratch the surface of this incredible movie.
Re: Brokeback Mountain Chinese title
by - jshane2002 2 days ago (Sat May 13 2006 00:50:57 ) REPLY TO by - babebegud (Wed Apr 26 2006 23:44:56 )
I'm Chinese and I live in mainland China. Please excuse my English.
"I do not agree that BBM has become the number one seller of pirated DVDs and everyone has to see it, or that there is a huge viewership here. I don't have numbers, but I think aside from a certain group of people who're well educated and open-minded, and have a decent understanding of English language (Ennis's mumbling in his accent...just too hard for us non-english speakers to get, and yes, the translation and English subtitles in the pirated DVD is lousy and extremely misleading!!!), not many people here are so eager to see this movie or are very impressed after viewing it. "
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Never would have guessed that English was not your native language. So many people write lazy, error ridden English, yours is quite good.
Anyway I was reading here about Chinese influences because it seems that Ang Lee's sensiblity for nature is so powerful and just strikes me as Chinese, or certainly non-US and I love nature.
About the soundtrack it's too bad the western dialect is hard to understand although if you heard for a while you would start to pick it up quickly. It's a shame because I love the unity of the language in Brokeback Mountain. To me it sounds as if nature could speak ( in words ) it would sound like Ennis' western twang.
Since I know some Spanish I set my DVD to display Spanish subtitles and I was shocked to see how much the poorly translated Spanish missed the humor in the dialogue. Same thing when watching the dubbed Spanish and French which is worse because you can't even hear Jake and Heath's voices.
Like any good art which consists of a great deal of poetry, so much is lost when translated, in fact that is a paraphrase of someone's definition of poetry ( the part that cannot be translated ).
Re: Brokeback Mountain Chinese title
by - Mart-13 (Thu Apr 6 2006 22:02:55 ) "They also banned "Babe" because they reasoned that pigs don't speak human language."
The reason very probably was exactly what they said -- because of a pig talking. The deeper reason likely is, because "Animal Farm" is still banned on mainland China. "Animal Farm", a short long book, was written by George Orwell and it very satirically depicts talking pigs, whom you will see in very bad light, once having finished reading the book. It actually looks shorter in web format, because the book itself is thin by any measure, but may be difficult to read (Possibly because the only one that I remember seeing and attempting to read, was a Russian-language version somewhere, despite my being a half-Russian. For the most part, I had the chance of listening to the book being read on the BBC.).
Re: Brokeback Mountain Chinese title
by - revolution-hk 3 days ago (Thu May 11 2006 08:12:06 ) I thought Animal Farm have some political meanings?
"If you can't fix it....call the support hot-line."
Re: Brokeback Mountain Chinese title
by - Mart-13 3 days ago (Thu May 11 2006 17:07:23 ) "I thought Animal Farm have some political meanings?"
Which is why it was banned in China, AFAIK.
See if you can get to this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_Farm
