Brokeback Mountain: Our Community's Common Bond > Brokeback Mountain Open Forum

Topic of the Week 2/07: Did Ennis and Jack kiss at all up on Brokeback?

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miniangel:
As one of the chief problem-makers over on DCF about this question, I should avoid it like the plague but.....

I am convinced that AP writes a layer of meaning that holds together well as a No Kiss argument. It can be ignored and the story still hangs together but I do believe it's there.

We are led to suppose that "nothing seemed wrong", to fill in the gaps with our imagination. But we are told that Ennis didn't want to have anything to do with Jack's cock and took him from behind and that "they knew how it would go....as it did go"

Then we are told that they had sex in different places and at different times but not that it changed in its substance. Then we find out that Ennis would not embrace Jack face to face.

I think the lock simile in the reunion kiss shows that they are unlocking something that was previously locked. There's a whole bunch of other arguments which seem to hang together well but I won't ramble on. The whole sorry mess on DCF started here

http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=12935.msg465488#msg465488

and eventually got banned completely from the forum. It's a touchy subject.

I think it shows how deeply affected Ennis was, and how debilitating the effects of internalised homophobia were on him. FWIW I'm trying to put the whole argument together on a webpage. I think it's a fundamental part of the story.

moremojo:
I am impressed by the interesting and intelligent comments, both pro and con, that have been offered here. I do think it is important to argue one's points with the original text as support, and I think to a large degree that has been followed.

The source of so much of the frustration is, I think, rooted in the quite deliberate ambiguity of Proulx's prose. There is much that we simply cannot know with certainty, and I suspect this may be an invitation to identify ourselves with Ennis, who must bear a lifetime of unknowns by the end of the tale (though the most essential question--Who have I loved?--has been answered). Proulx really meant it when she said it fell to the reader to finish the story in their own lives, and that is all anyone who has been haunted by this particular story can do.

Front-Ranger:

--- Quote from: Penthesilea on August 06, 2007, 11:00:57 am ---When I heard this theory, that they never kissed up on Brokbecak, for the first time. I was like:  :o :o :o - no effin way!
That thought had never occurred to me (and by then, I had been a Brokie for a long while) and I realised that my personal view of Brokeback Mountain is much more influenced by the movie than by the story.
But after re-reading the significant parts of the story and thinking about it for a while I admit that it is possible.

Yet my personal take on it is still that they indeed did kiss up there.

This part is for me kind of key to the question:

"...then, and easily as the right key turns the lock tumblers, their mouths came together, ..."

Easily as the right key turns the lock tumblers sounds to me like it is something they did hundred times before; like it's something well-known, familiar and natural - they fit like a a glove. Even after four years of seperation there wasn't any awkwardness in them, they just continued where they had stopped (before Jake broke the news of bringing them down).
I think it wouldn't be that way (easily as...) if it were the first time.

Additionally I have a hard time picturing two people having sex for months and falling in love (whether they knew it by then or not), but never sharing a kiss. Scott's argument that it would have been a silent admission for Ennis that he was queer sounds to me more like movie-Ennis and not like story-Ennis.

And after four years of seperation and not knowing if they'd ever see each other again, after four years of built-up passion it's no wonder the kiss wasn't soft and smooth.

--- End quote ---

What a logical and yet impassioned argument! Alright you convinced me. Annie would not have let them come together on Brokeback that first summer without kissing. That would have been a GBOAUS!!

brokebackjack:
Well, as the person who set off that chaotic firestorm on DC with comments which were, uh, ill -advised and ill-timed  {I walked into a minefield....w/o knowing it was a minefield---Dave himself got into the act. } I should avoid this like the plague. Hell, I barely posted in that thread, it just didn't seem that important a question. My comments were basically about free speech and an unpopular subject, and  were inspired by what went on re that Kiss/NoKiss thread. It hit the nerve of all time, but no matter.

I'm a kisser.

It's a gut feeling, that's all. I find it impossible to believe that they never smooched up there.


I haven't been online much at all since mid-June, soooooo. HIIIII to all my BM buds!!!! Both the wife and I were pretty sick, she has recovered fairly well and I'm maybe halfway there. We had this environmentally poisoned home. It was a real real mess.

I DO have to say this as a general remark:
I think BM is crying out for "heavy" discussions like this one. They would give new life to our forum and re-awaken interest in the minutae of the short story itself. This place has an attitude which cannot be duplicated. I started on DC and have considered myself a staunch BM person from the day I joined, it's a wonderful, happy and tolerant place....

Thank you, BM!!!! As usual, this forum is 'the port in the storm'. What would we all do w/o Phillip's tolerance and broad-minded care?

Penthesilea:
Since the topic of DCF has come up twice, I'd like to respond to it:

I didn't know that this subject is such a can of worms over there. I had only seen this topic discussed in comments on LifeJournal a few months ago. Following Miniangle's link I went over and had a look.

I don't think anybody should stay away from this topic here on BetterMost. Everybody is welcome to add his opinion, to agree or disagree with others, to quote Proulx's story to make a point or to just simply say "yes" or "no" to the topic's question.


Now back on topic:

I still would like to get other people's opinions about the questions I asked in my above post. Any takes?

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