Brokeback Mountain: Our Community's Common Bond > Brokeback Mountain Open Forum
TOTW 01/08: Do you think Jack was murdered or was it an accident?
Brown Eyes:
Heya Kerry,
I can certainly understand why some folks would see Lureen in a negative light here. But, I'm a pretty big fan of Lureen actually. And, I don't hold her "coldness" against her at all or even her relatively brusk way of speaking in this phone conversation. Her life has involved immense disappointments and repressions (Ennis and Jack aren't the only ones dealing with disappointments for sure) and to me her voice and appearance are the sad visual effects of symptoms of these disappointments and stress for her (in my interpretation). She's been reduced from her "red flame" (red color symbol)/ sassy younger self to this washed out, cold (now ash colored) woman. And, it's very sad to me. The discussion of Lureen in general, is pretty complex I think and probably best left to the threads that are specifically about her.
In this particular phone call conversation... I really do think that what she actually tells Ennis (leaving asider her mannerisms) is very kind. She even tells Ennis that Brokeback was Jack's favorite place. She didn't need to do that. And, just think about how important hearing that probably was to Ennis in his grief. If she hadn't really encouraged him to go to Lightning Flat he never would have found the shirts. The fact that she doesn't freak out (at all) when she realizes who Ennis really is... I think speaks volumes about Lureen. I think this phone call only confirms what Lureen already suspects (perhaps subconsciously). The little hitch in Lureen's voice when she realizes is just so subtle and brilliant.
--- Quote from: Kerry on January 09, 2008, 08:01:55 am ---This is such a fascinating thread and even more so for me to read how different scenes are interpreted entirely differently by different people.
I have now seen BbM on more occasions than I care to count and on every one of those occasions I thought Lureen was cold, aloof and patronising to Ennis on the phone. And I won't even mention the way she summarily hung-up the phone on Ennis' ear, without so much as a civil "Good-bye."
IMHO Lureen sometimes even seemed to almost be sneering. "We put a stone up," she says, as her top lip curls up.
Just my view, for what it's worth. In the novella, Ms Proulx says, "No doubt about it, she was polite but the little voice was cold as snow."
I'm gaining so many fascinating insights here. :)
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moremojo:
--- Quote from: Artiste on January 08, 2008, 07:41:58 pm ---Moremorjo and to all too: how did this come about in our democratic countries?? The bible(s)? Certains religions? Or? Invented this? Why? Doesn't every person on Earth deserve to live?? - I say!!
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I see the root of homophobic violence stemming from certain religions, including Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. All three of these major Western religions are fundamentally homophobic, and collectively command the allegiance of billions of people worldwide. The anti-sodomy laws which prevailed in much of the United States until quite recently had their foundation in Christian bias. When sodomites were seen (are seen) as worthy of damnation and death by God, the followers of that God felt (feel) they had (have) legitimate grounds to treat such people in a comparable manner.
An even more fundamental component of this issue is the perennial, problematic phenomenon of scapegoating. Human beings throughout history seem to display a need to regard certain other members of their species as not only different but as less than human, deserving of opprobrium, abuse, and even death. Jungian psychology suggests that this need stems from an inability to confront and integrate the "shadow self", the bundle of darker impulses and feelings which is nonetheless an integral part of the collective human inheritance. Seen from this perspective, the rejection and killing of the dehumanized Other is an attempt to conceal and kill off a part of the Self that the individual or society cannot bear to countenance in themselves. Homosexuals have been but one of many categories that have been deemed, and continue to be deemed, as evil, other, and worthy of eradication.
Shakesthecoffecan:
--- Quote from: ennisjack on January 09, 2008, 11:23:46 am --- Even though L.D. died before Jack, I feel that, if Jack was murdered, L.D. had something to do with it. Or else Randall got ticked off when Jack broke it off with him. Other than that, I don't believe that he actually died. There was no actual concrete proof in the form of a body. I mean, anyone can get ashes anywhere and you can always put up a headstone to throw off suspicion and all, but without a body there can be no murder.
Plus, queer or not, even in that day and age gays were making headway in their fight for their rights and someone would have investigated it. I'm pretty sure that not everyone in the Sheriff's Dept. were bigots and hatemongers. Some of them, sure but not everyone. Plus, Jack also had quite a few friends that would have wondered what really happened.
Not trying to start a debate here. It's just my opinion. Besides, it really gives most of us impetus for writing some wonderful stories. ;D
EnnisJack
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One theory I have developed, which could be answered by the realease of the deleated scenes, is that he did have a flat, and maybe Randall gave him a ride to the garage. In the clips we see in the trailer to the movie the mechanics are witnessing something going on they don;t like. Perhaps some effection passing betwixt Jack and Randall.
Sandy:
--- Quote from: southendmd on January 09, 2008, 10:04:39 am --- I think this is when she realizes who Ennis really is ; simultaneously, she is realizing who she isn't and what she has lost or even never had with Jack.
Another squeak of recognition when Ennis says "we was good friends" seals it.
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You have hit the nail on the head!
moremojo:
--- Quote from: Shakestheground on January 09, 2008, 12:12:34 pm ---One theory I have developed, which could be answered by the realease of the deleated scenes, is that he did have a flat, and maybe Randall gave him a ride to the garage. In the clips we see in the trailer to the movie the mechanics are witnessing something going on they don;t like. Perhaps some effection passing betwixt Jack and Randall.
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This raises the potent critical question of how much validity we should give to the deleted scenes in relation to the finished, released film. I don't think we should necessarily give any credence to any deleted scene in terms of arriving at an interpretation of the film as it now stands. It is clear, though, that many others will choose otherwise, which may be one reason that Lee and/or Schamus (and others?) have chosen not to include them on any of the approved DVD releases.
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