The World Beyond BetterMost > The Culture Tent
Sarah Waters: Books & Movies Discussion
Lumière:
Since we are already talking about Nan's various transformations in TTV, I thought some 'photographic evidence' would be a good idea. =)
Hopefully some of the pictures will inspire some more discussions as well. ;)
**~**~**~**~**~**
Nan as a fresh-faced oyster-girl, infatuated (possibly in love) and confused about her emerging feelings for Kitty...
"Now, I'm like you"...
I loved this scene when Nan looks at herself after her haircut. Her expression brings one word to mind: Awakening. :)
"I could fall for a boy like you.." the way Kitty delivers that line in this scene... loved it.
I like how she exudes confidence and even a touch of arrogance in this scene..
Working the streets as a young soldier.. That old john was creepy as heck. lol..
"Evenin' sweetheart.." Nan notices Flo for the first time..
Still overcoming her Kitty-blues and starting to get a sense of her "old self" back..
An introduction to the Sapphist Socialite lifestyle..
And one of my faves..
The beginnings of a family.. :)
Brown Eyes:
Hi M!
Thanks so much for all these pictures. :) Nan (and Kitty too really) certainly are chameleons. I still really wonder if this might be some kind of comment on how lesbians in generations gone-by (and even now) have either worked to blend into conventional society or stand-out (to other lesbians) through a lot of deliberate manipulations of dress and image.
--- Quote from: Lucise on February 20, 2008, 01:59:21 pm ---Let’s turn to Ralph for a sec…
When he came into the living room that morning and found Nan and Flo lying together after their night out at the lesbian bar, he didn’t seem surprised or upset by it… he was a little embarrassed if anything. No doubt he was aware of her sexuality and was accustomed to the idea that his sister’s lover would be a woman. How wonderful it must’ve been for Flo to have such an open-minded and loving brother, especially at a time when it was so undoubtedly unacceptable to be queer. I love that he accepted her, despite what the neighbors might've said.
--- End quote ---
Ralph is such a great character. I love how Nan describes him as "gentle" and with no motivations besides kindness when it came to helping her from the beginning. And, I totally love how Nan helped him with his political rally that he cared so much about. And, yes, I do think Ralph must have known about Flo's sexuality prior to Nan... especially if Lillian had lived with them for a time and they've now found themselves in the position of raising Cyril.
I suspect we're supposed to see Ralph as a true "progressive" in every sense (and the best sense) of that word. I also think he's helpful to demonstrating how lesbians and men can be great friends and very helpful to one another given the right circumstances and mutual respect.
One other thing I find interesting about Ralph is the very end when he's watching Nan perform on stage. When Nan's singing about "settling" down and forming "a cozy little nest"... in one sense she's sort of referring to what she already has with Flo, Ralph and Cyril. But, there's a moment when Ralph's listening and he sort of looks down and looks wistful... and I wonder if he's thinking about finding a partner for himself.
So, on another topic relating to TTV... how do you feel about the representation of Kitty and Nan's first kiss... and the sort of explosive way that they reveal their feelings to each other in the carriage following the dinner/dancing out? Kitty gets so angry all of a sudden watching Nan dancing with the guy from the band. It's interesting that this was the moment that tipped the balance and made the situation clear to both Kitty and Nan.
<img src="http://www.divshare.com/img/3859591-62b.jpg" border="0" />
<img src="http://www.divshare.com/img/midsize/3859589-35c.jpeg" border="0" />
Brown Eyes:
--- Quote from: Lucise on February 20, 2008, 07:59:14 pm ---
"Evenin' sweetheart.." Nan notices Flo for the first time..
Still overcoming her Kitty-blues and starting to get a sense of her "old self" back..
--- End quote ---
Just one more comment for now... This is such an interesting scene. Where she senses her first spark of attraction to Flo. It's totally fascinating to see how negatively Flo reacts to Nan calling out to her with that "evening sweetheart" comment. It's clear that Flo has no idea that Nan's a woman... and you get the sense that Flo is reacting defensively to Nan exactly as she would to any guy on the street who hassled her or made an unwanted pass at her. And, then later, when Flo and Nan meet on the street and Nan is dressed in women's clothing... Flo just lights up when she realizes that Nan was the real source of the "evening sweetheart." I think Flo's reaction to the two instances of meeting Nan is one clue that Nan is using to try to figure out if Flo is a "tom" too.
Lumière:
--- Quote ---So, on another topic relating to TTV... how do you feel about the representation of Kitty and Nan's first kiss... and the sort of explosive way that they reveal their feelings to each other in the carriage following the dinner/dancing out? Kitty gets so angry all of a sudden watching Nan dancing with the guy from the band. It's interesting that this was the moment that tipped the balance and made the situation clear to both Kitty and Nan.
--- End quote ---
I love the portrayal of their first kiss.
It was brought on by a single event, a dance, that sent Kitty's jealousy spilling over the line they were both trying very hard not to cross.
Kitty's reaction surprised Nan as we see after Kitty storms out. One of my favorite scenes in the movie.. :)
And then when they are in the carriage, Kitty says: "Sometimes I don't think you care at all for my feelings.." to which Nan replies, "Oh Kitty..if you knew.." - wonderful moment. Everything was exposed at that point. Who knew how much time they might've spent tiptoeing around each other, never revealing their true feelings, if that night hadn't happened? It was a revelation.
I really enjoyed the way those crucial scenes were delivered in the movie. I think this is one instance where I almost prefer the movie version of their first kiss to the way it was originally written in the book. The movie also added the line Kitty says in the carriage: "I hate the way you make me feel..". Simple words that reveal her helplessness and the fact that she is falling for Nan. :)
Do you think that Walter Bliss suspected that they were lovers later on (before it all came out, that is)?
Even before that, at the dance, when Nan asked Kitty to dance, do you think he (or anyone for that matter) ever guessed that there was a romantic interest there? I guess people were not so easily shocked in 'artistic circles' but I am sure there must have been talk. :)
Brown Eyes:
--- Quote from: Lucise on February 25, 2008, 08:15:02 pm ---
I really enjoyed the way those crucial scenes were delivered in the movie. I think this is one instance where I almost prefer the movie version of their first kiss to the way it was originally written in the book. The movie also added the line Kitty says in the carriage: "I hate the way you make me feel..". Simple words that reveal her helplessness and the fact that she is falling for Nan. :)
--- End quote ---
Heya!
I agree that the intensity of the kiss scene in the carriage is really great... with everything shifting and becoming exposed all at once. I've always sort of wondered exactly what Kitty meant with that statement "I hate the way you make me feel..." I wonder how long she's had real feelings for Nan. Was it from the very first meeting with the "like a mermaid" hand kiss? Or was she just sort of flirting with Nan for a while? We know that Kitty had had previous female lovers, so flirting with a girl from the audience may not have been so unusual for her. Was she in love with Nan when she asked her to move to London? She seemed somewhat surprised to realize that Nan had saved that dried up rose in her nightstand. Nan is so naive and so quiet in the beginning I can really see how she was confusing to Kitty. I do think Kitty was in love with Nan by the time she found her in their London room trying on the boys clothes... I guess now that I think of that... that was their first kiss (when Kitty says "I could fall for a boy like you")... but it was still masked in play-acting at that point. I think for the kiss scene in the carriage with Kitty it's very significant that they're both wearing women's dresses. Somehow that seems to indicate (to me at least) that they're both fully aware of the reality of the situation... that they're both now in love with another woman. No hiding of playacting behind men's costumes at that point.
--- Quote ---Do you think that Walter Bliss suspected that they were lovers later on (before it all came out, that is)?
Even before that, at the dance, when Nan asked Kitty to dance, do you think he (or anyone for that matter) ever guessed that there was a romantic interest there? I guess people were not so easily shocked in 'artistic circles' but I am sure there must have been talk. :)
--- End quote ---
I think Walter probably knew from the beginning that Kitty flirted with girls and probably understood that Kitty had "flings" with women. I think it's meant to be understood that she was pretty popular backstage at the theaters where she worked. I've actually wondered just how many of the women who caught roses did Kitty have flings with? Tony (Nan's sister's bisexual boyfriend) totally knew that Kitty dated women when he sort of warns her as she's chasing after Nan backstage in an early scene.
(By the way... what do you make of that plot line with Tony being bisexual... and Alice dumping him when she found out?)
So, I'd assume that Walter had some idea. But, I think when Nan finds him with Kitty and he made that awful statement about knowing that Nan and Kitty were "sweethearts" and that he believed that women "need a man" to actually have sex... I think he was being pretty honest about the level of understanding he had about what lesbians are and how women relate to one another. Essentially, when it comes down to the reality of what lesbians are, Walter's clueless. Maybe as years go on he does understand what the real story is with Kitty. She says that their relationship became a "marriage of convenience" at the end... and maybe she's right. It's hard to really know.
<img src="http://www.divshare.com/img/3859588-f5a.jpg" border="0" />
Thinking about Walter makes me think a little bit about the mini-series of Fingersmith and another difficult prominent male character. What's you're take on "Gentleman" from Fingersmith? How much did he understand about Maud from the beginning? I think he figures out her specific attraction to Sue during the watercolor lessons... but, I often wonder if he knew about Maud almost from the first time he met her. I think he's completely stunned about Sue. And, I also wonder about what's meant to be implied between Gentleman and the "shoeshine" boy (the one that seems to have such a crush on Gentleman in a very naive way). Are we meant to believe that Gentleman is gay too? He never seems to indicate real sexual interest in the women for himself... even after the marriage he seems willing to leave Maud alone and proceed with the facade of the marriage very much like play-acting. His entire motivation through the whole thing really seems to be the money (and ego)... at least as far as I can see.
Anyway! Wow! There really is a lot to discuss with these films. For now, I'm really sticking with the films in my comments here because my memory of the films is better than my memory of the details from the books (I still need to re-read them).
:)
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