The World Beyond BetterMost > The Culture Tent
Sarah Waters: Books & Movies Discussion
Lumière:
Glad you liked the Nan/Kitty/Diana pictures Amanda!
I found them on a Keeley Hawes fansite.
Again, wish Flo was in the mix as well. :)
--- Quote ---So, now I actually quite like that segment (even though it's not a positive segment, so to speak). I love the way Diana's portrayed and I think it's important in illustrating a certain kind of lesbian sexuality (seen in Diana's attitude) that's really all about lust... and not about true love or living happily ever after. It just makes lesbian culture seem very complex.
--- End quote ---
I was not very crazy about the Diana part of TTV the first few times I watched the movie either. I went back and watched it a few more times after I got the book and read the story. Diana seemed so much fuller as a character to me at that point. Anna Chancellor was a splendid choice for the role – she brought such a flare to the character.
As you say, Diana shows a completely different facet of the sapphist lifestyle of that era. Diana fascinates me – she is a woman of bountiful means, a Victorian too… her lesbian nature does not eradicate her classist arrogance. Her wealth and position play a vital role in the story. We know that she had many lovers she took in and discarded in the end; Nan was a good example. Diana is no different from other Victorians in her class (sapphist or not). I was not concerned that she shed a negative light on lesbian culture because at the end of the day, people are just people, whether they are gay or not. She definitely used her ample station/power to get what she wanted from the people around her, whether they were her lovers or her servants (not that there was any difference between those groups, in her case).
I remember the scene at the last Sapphist party Nan would attend… where Diana asked Zena Blake to pull down her drawers for the entertainment of Diana and all her guests. It was a horribly degrading thing to do, but as mistress of the house (as she told Nan), it was in her power to ask that of ‘her girl’. It was interesting to see that none of the guests objected to Diana’s request – in fact, they were more than delighted to subject this helpless maid to such humiliation. Their attitude of looking down on someone simply because s/he is a servant says more to me about their class-structured society than it does their sexuality.
What I appreciate about Diana’s character is her audacity, her openness about her sexuality, her ability to simply live the life she wanted. Her story with Nan was not a love story, far from it, it was based on lust and skewed power dynamics. It was a story line that showed that there isn’t always a happy-ever-after in life’s relationships, whether they be queer or not. :)
--- Quote ---Going back to Flo for a sec... how do you feel about the ending of the TTV mini series? How do you think Nan's family will respond to Flo? I'm sure it would be rough going with Alice. And, I wonder if the revelation about Nan's sexuality will come as a complete shock to the rest of her family. Her parents and brother seem very sweet but seem to be portrayed as rather naive.
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I loved the ending of the mini-series (more than the book’s ending in fact). It felt like Nan went full circle – she left her oyster girl’s existence in Whitstable in a journey of self-discovery and she came back with an understanding of her true nature and with a person she loved dearly. It was a happy ending I deeply appreciated. :)
Flo looked nervous too, didn’t she? Who can blame her? I think that Alice would be the least surprised to see Nan with a female partner, simply because she had known for some time, she didn’t approve, but she knew. Here’s how I picture it…
Nan holds onto Flo’s sweaty hand tightly, reassuring her all the way home. They get there, get in… hugs all around. Her parents are thrilled to see her home again; there is a tear in her father’s eyes. Nan first introduces Flo as her friend… Alice is a little lukewarm and the least enthused by the reunion, but she smiles nonetheless. They sit down for a while and chat about the trip from London while Nan’s mother fusses as she organizes something for them to eat.
When there are enough snacks on the table to feed an army, her mother takes a seat and Nan tells them the real reason she came home to visit. She comes out and tells them that she and Florence are sweethearts, have been for some time now.
Alice walks out in a huff, shaking her head, afraid of how their parents would take it. Her brother, Davy’s and her father’s mouths hang open; her mother sighs a deep shaky sigh and says that she always knew that there was something a bit queer about her daughter (in fact, she started having her suspicions when Nan got all googly-eyed and defensive when the subject of Kitty came up those years ago).
There are tears in her mother’s eyes…Nan goes to her and tries to hug her…she hesitates and lets Nan embrace her; her husband mumbles something like.. ‘I don’t think I heard her right, did I?’ Flo sits quietly, her head slightly lowered. Davy says, ‘But you were with Freddie all that time, Nan, surely you can’t be…’…what an emotional day it is in the Astley household! …
One day before they have to leave for London again, Alice comes around … She tells Nan that she still doesn’t approve of her ways, but thinks that Flo is lovely and caring (she also adds that she never liked Kitty and is pleased that her sister found someone grounded who does not dress in gentlemen’s clothes or wear her hair short)…
In the end, a hundred tears and questions later, Nan’s family tells her that they love her, and wish her & Flo all the love and happiness (and luck) in the world (for they would need all the good wishes they could get)…
Okay, I got carried away with my silly story there.. :P
Your turn, what do you think happened after the end we saw? :)
Brown Eyes:
--- Quote from: AuroraLucis on March 05, 2008, 04:24:08 pm ---Howdy Amanda! :)
Wish I could find a larger version of this pic..
Do you have it?
--- End quote ---
Sorry Bud, I only have that little version of it. I'm still curious about where you're finding all your great TTV pictures. Mostly, mine are just the sort of random results that are found via Google and Yahoo image searches. Nothing fancy.
Brown Eyes:
--- Quote from: AuroraLucis on March 05, 2008, 04:29:13 pm --- Diana fascinates me – she is a woman of bountiful means, a Victorian too… her lesbian nature does not eradicate her classist arrogance. Her wealth and position play a vital role in the story. We know that she had many lovers she took in and discarded in the end; Nan was a good example. Diana is no different from other Victorians in her class (sapphist or not). I was not concerned that she shed a negative light on lesbian culture because at the end of the day, people are just people, whether they are gay or not. She definitely used her ample station/power to get what she wanted from the people around her, whether they were her lovers or her servants (not that there was any difference between those groups, in her case).
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I think Diana is totally fascinating too (and I'll say again that Chancellor's portrayal really went a long way to helping facilitate this sense of Diana I think). Even though she's totally cruel and completely classist (and seems to even know this... and still she persists in using all of these things to her own advantage)... she's still erotically interesting, which is a big complicated key to her character I think. Even though Nan is miserable living with Diana and even after a long, long time had past she admits that she's still "on fire" for Diana and that Diana was still "on fire" for her. And, between the two actresses you really do get this sense of chemistry.
--- Quote ---What I appreciate about Diana’s character is her audacity, her openness about her sexuality, her ability to simply live the life she wanted. Her story with Nan was not a love story, far from it, it was based on lust and skewed power dynamics. It was a story line that showed that there isn’t always a happy-ever-after in life’s relationships, whether they be queer or not.
--- End quote ---
I agree with you that Diana's audacity and self-confidence are extremely attractive in a certain way. That's all part of her sexual chemistry I think. To me personally, boldness and confidence are huge turn-ons. It would be interesting to imagine her as a positive character (without the abusive side or the classist side)... a lesbian like her with a lot of money... intelligent and autonomous could have been a powerful force for the lesbian subculture one could imagine.
And, yes, it's just so interesting... this segment really is all about lust and not love. It's like a grittier... less-pretty side to lesbianism that must be a reality for some people. I mean the segments about Kitty and about Flo are all about love (plus sexual attraction too). Those segments are more about the "hearts and flowers" that Diana's friend mocks at one point. It's just such a contrast. Even when Diana says to Nan that she's "the love of her life"... it's like immediately neither of them really believes it. I don't really think Diana loved Nan... I think she was proud of her "good catch" and liked the idea of controlling Nan, but I hardly believe that she really meant what she said about the "love of her life." It's so interesting, too, that Nan throws this statement back in Diana's face after she was hit at the party. She uses this phrase back at Diana in front of the crowd and Diana says "listen to the little liar." She's embarrassed about the idea of love even.
Even after all this time, the Diana section is definitely difficult. And, another thing I find compelling about this is that at one point after Zena tells her about her earlier affair with another maid, Nan says that following Diana she feels "too spoiled and stained" for love. I do find it fascinating that Flo is able to accept this situation about Nan's past so relatively easily.
OK, more about Flo and the happy ending...
--- Quote ---Your turn, what do you think happened after the end we saw? :)
--- End quote ---
I think your description of the possible meeting with the parents is excellent, and very similar to how I envision it. I would think that things might be harder with Alice though... I would almost say that Alice would be the one unhappy aspect to the ending of the story. I think Alice is just too homophobic to handle this or to come around. I do think that Nan's parents seem to just love her to pieces and would certainly eventually accept the situation. I really don't know if her family would have put two and two together about Nan being "different" prior to Flo coming home with Nan. But, I think her Dad's question about "has she found herself a young man yet" (when Nan comes home from London to visit for the first time)... indicates that he's growing concerned about her. And, perhaps the way that she was fawning over Kitty with the oyster-eating lessons, etc. would be enough for the folks to understand what was happening with Nan. It's really hard to say.
Lumière:
Amanda,
Re: the websites with some screencaps:
Check out this Rachael Stirling website gallery
and
Keeley Hawes site (sign up required to see the gallery). :)
To continue with our TTV discussion...
We know just how much Kitty broke Nan's heart when they split up. It is hard to lose one's first love.
Were you sympathetic towards Kitty even though she was clearly hurting Nan? Could you see where she was coming from, why she decided to "do the sensible thing" and wed Mr. Bliss? Do you think that she was sincere when she came back to plead with Nan...would anything have changed? We know that she wasn't planning on leaving Walter, she wanted to see Nan "on the side", so to speak (a few conclusions could be drawn from that).. Would you have been tempted to give her a second chance...? :)
I think she really did believe that Nan would give her that rose...
...
Brown Eyes:
Heya,
Thanks for the links to those websites Bud! :-*
I feel very sorry for Kitty. I mean, she was brutal to Nan with her deception and her ultimate decision to sleep with and marry Walter. And, I don't really forgive her for that. But, I do feel sorry for Kitty in the sense that I think she's sort of a female version of Ennis. I think she truly is a lesbian (even her reactions to Walter and Nan during the big confrontation when Nan discovers them make it seem like she's not very enthusiastic about Walter). I think, much like Ennis... she chooses Walter out of concerns about stability/security and concerns about what other people might think about her. I mean, even after the first time she and Nan are together she says it has to be their secret. And, when Kitty comes back in the end suggesting that the affair with Nan should be resumed... this to me is very much like Ennis wanting the fishing trips to continue on a regular basis but not being willing to move in with Jack or make any kind of public or even private commitment.
I think Kitty is pretty miserable once the relationship with Walter becomes sexual/ marriage. I think the sketch that Nan witnesses with Walter and Kitty on stage is meant to be seen as demeaning and embarassing for Kitty compared to her sexy and bold earlier acts before she was with Walter. I also think it's supposed to suggest that Walter has a tremendously condescending attitude towards Kitty... even seeing her as child-like.
But, I think Kitty's plight is probably the plight of a lot of historical lesbians and even modern-day lesbians. Women who sublimate their true desires and feelings because of concerns about convention/security and concerns about public reputation.
:-\
How do you feel about Kitty?
OK and now I have another question about Fingersmith (completely unrelated to the Kitty topic). How do you feel about the ending, when Maud becomes a writer of erotica herself? What do you make of that decision on her part? And Susan's pretty quick acceptance of the situation?
<img src="http://www.divshare.com/img/3980013-2e2.jpg" border="0" />
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