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Sarah Waters: Books & Movies Discussion
Lumière:
Hey Amanda!
--- Quote ---How do you feel about Kitty?
--- End quote ---
I agree with the points you made. Great comparison between Kitty and Ennis – quite agree with you on that score. Not unlike Ennis, we know that Kitty had a hard life growing up. She did not wish to discuss the details with Nan but no doubt, those experiences shaped her attitudes, possibly even surrounding her sexuality. In the end, I did feel a bit sorry for Kitty. I sensed that she still loved Nan, I am sure she never stopped thinking about her. The social pressures got to her and she betrayed Nan, thinking that she was doing them a favor because ‘they couldn’t carry on as they were..” (as if what they had was a passing phase).
Isn’t it interesting to see how one act by another person can send a person hurtling down a path they never imagined they would travel? After Kitty, Nan, emotionally tormented by what had happened, fell into a depression and eventually started working the streets … on the flip side of that, she started to explore the possibility of dressing up in the clothes she had used solely for the stage (a medium she later uses to explore her sapphic identity). At that time of her life though, I think those men’s clothes sort of gave her permission to be invisible to the world while being a performer on the streets (her new stage); she could be a sailor one day, a soldier the next… and those ‘characters’ would be the ones doing those sexual acts to complete strangers on dark street corners. You hear about prostitutes needing to take heroin in order to turn tricks…for Nan, I think those costumes were her heroin, the one thing that made the whole affair bearable. But I digress…
When I think about the ending and what might’ve become of the characters’ lives afterward, I see Kitty staying with Walter. I imagine her having women lovers on the side but never actually taking the step to leave him. When she came back to plead with Nan, I think Nan was tempted, even though the wound that had healed was forced open again. Kitty was the first woman she had fallen for, and hard too. The one person who showed her that ‘girls could go all the way’, the first one to set her off on her journey of self-discovery. It would’ve been hard for Nan not to be tempted to go back to her…
--- Quote ---OK and now I have another question about Fingersmith (completely unrelated to the Kitty topic). How do you feel about the ending, when Maud becomes a writer of erotica herself? What do you make of that decision on her part? And Susan's pretty quick acceptance of the situation?
--- End quote ---
I was not surprised that Maud became a writer of erotica in the end.
She had just found out that she was “a nobody” as Gentleman put it; she had lived a lie most of her life, the money, the house she’d been kept prisoner in – they were not hers in the end. I don’t think she felt she had much more to offer anyone.
A statement Nan made comes to mind here – it is her feeling of being “too stained for love” (what with her relationship with Diana and her sexual exploits before that)… In a way, I see that statement applying to Maud as well; I see her thinking of herself along those same lines. She sees herself as a young woman who has been “inoculated with poison” from a very tender age and damaged irreparably by her uncle’s actions. Then Sue comes along; she falls in love with Sue and then betrays her, only to discover that she was being played as much as Sue was. Everything she knew to be true was gone, except the art (albeit objectionable and unusual) she had acquired from her uncle – the erotica. I recall the way she calmly asked Sue, "Have you come to kill me.." when Sue returned to Briar, as if she had been waiting and expecting such an outcome. At the end, I don't think she cared much about what became of her - everything was lost, including Sue (or so she thought).
With regards to Sue's acceptance of the issue...
By the time Sue finds Maud at Briar after everything has happened, I think she is ‘shocked-out’ i.e. there isn’t too much that can surprise her anymore, what with everything that transpired at the madhouse, with Gentleman, Maud and Mrs Sucksby. I think it was more important to her at that point to determine whether Maud knew who her (Sue’s) real mother/identity was from the very beginning… because Maud’s knowledge of such a fact would’ve taken things to a level of deceit so deep that it could’ve destroyed everything & sent her feelings for Maud crashing down completely. I don’t think that Sue was prepared to lose Maud again after the culmination of all the events that had transpired over the previous months.
I was just glad that they made their peace in the end and found that the love they felt for each other was still there. Besides, with Sue being the true heiress of Briar and all the money, there would be no need for Maud to keep writing erotica for a living (she could just write it for Sue ;) )…
What did you think about the ending? :)
Lumière:
Thought I'd post this rather beautiful picture of Kitty..
love the Victorian outfits! :)
I just noted something...
Is it just me or is there something a little masculine about Kitty's sitting posture in this pic?
I am referring to the general legs apart, elbows resting on the knees pose... Makes me wonder if she sometimes found that her adopted masculinity for the stage bled into her day-to-day feminine side .. ;)
Brown Eyes:
--- Quote from: AuroraLucis on March 10, 2008, 01:23:44 pm ---
I was not surprised that Maud became a writer of erotica in the end.
She had just found out that she was “a nobody” as Gentleman put it; she had lived a lie most of her life, the money, the house she’d been kept prisoner in – they were not hers in the end. I don’t think she felt she had much more to offer anyone.
A statement Nan made comes to mind here – it is her feeling of being “too stained for love” (what with her relationship with Diana and her sexual exploits before that)… In a way, I see that statement applying to Maud as well; I see her thinking of herself along those same lines. She sees herself as a young woman who has been “inoculated with poison” from a very tender age and damaged irreparably by her uncle’s actions. Then Sue comes along; she falls in love with Sue and then betrays her, only to discover that she was being played as much as Sue was. Everything she knew to be true was gone, except the art (albeit objectionable and unusual) she had acquired from her uncle – the erotica. I recall the way she calmly asked Sue, "Have you come to kill me.." when Sue returned to Briar, as if she had been waiting and expecting such an outcome. At the end, I don't think she cared much about what became of her - everything was lost, including Sue (or so she thought).
With regards to Sue's acceptance of the issue...
By the time Sue finds Maud at Briar after everything has happened, I think she is ‘shocked-out’ i.e. there isn’t too much that can surprise her anymore, what with everything that transpired at the madhouse, with Gentleman, Maud and Mrs Sucksby. I think it was more important to her at that point to determine whether Maud knew who her (Sue’s) real mother/identity was from the very beginning… because Maud’s knowledge of such a fact would’ve taken things to a level of deceit so deep that it could’ve destroyed everything & sent her feelings for Maud crashing down completely. I don’t think that Sue was prepared to lose Maud again after the culmination of all the events that had transpired over the previous months.
I was just glad that they made their peace in the end and found that the love they felt for each other was still there. Besides, with Sue being the true heiress of Briar and all the money, there would be no need for Maud to keep writing erotica for a living (she could just write it for Sue ;) )…
What did you think about the ending? :)
--- End quote ---
I like what you said about Sue being "shocked-out." That sounds very reasonable to me. I suppose after the madhouse an all the deceit and convoluted tangle of plots and schemes, she was maybe numb to a lot of future shocks.
As far as the ending goes... I feel like the story ends just as a really interesting stage of their relationship begins. It would be so fascinating to see how they navigate their relationship following all the drama of the main story. You're point about "being too stained for love" definitely seems to apply to the situation between Sue and Maud on a number of levels. However, when you think back to their main love scene before Maud marries Gentleman, I think that may be one of the sweetest (I mean literally sweet) lesbian love scenes I've seen. So, I think there's a way in which their love story is like this lovely, delicate and very sincere thing in the midst of all the ugly drama that surrounds their circumstance.
I think the idea of Maud taking possession of the "skills" she's learned from her horrible Uncle in terms of dealing with erotica and books in general is very interesting. By her actively claiming it, there's some sense of empowerment for her I think. And, now with her love for Sue, as she says she now understands a bit what the books were about. Although, of course, the critical difference here is that she'd presumably be writing women's erotica, or stories about women for women, which I would assume would be very different from the types of pornography that her Uncle collected.
It's sort of interesting to imagine Sue and Maud's future together in relation to Diana in TTV. Presumably, Sue and Maud will move forward as a couple - living in rather grand style with Sue's money and the house. In a way, they'll be the wealthy and empowered lesbians (in much the same way as Diana, although Diana of course didn't have a true significant other). Also, it could be said that if Maud continued to write erotica there would be a serious element of decadence in their lives (just as Diana's life was built around an idea of decadence). But, at the same time. Sue and Maud just seem so different in terms of temperment compared to Diana that the analogy here isn't too exact. I don't think either Sue or Maud have the same level of cruelty in their personalities as Diana. Maud, in particular, seems rather cynical, but I suppose that's almost to be expected after how she's been raised.
Still, as much as the relationship between Sue and Maud is folded into the wider story of Fingersmith... at the end I'm really ready to focus on how they'll make their relationship work. So, in a way it's frustrating that it ends there so abruptly.
--- Quote from: AuroraLucis on March 10, 2008, 01:40:52 pm ---Thought I'd post this rather beautiful picture of Kitty..
love the Victorian outfits! :)
I just noted something...
Is it just me or is there something a little masculine about Kitty's sitting posture in this pic?
I am referring to the general legs apart, elbows resting on the knees pose... Makes me wonder if she sometimes found that her adopted masculinity for the stage bled into her day-to-day feminine side .. ;)
--- End quote ---
This is a great pic! And, Kitty is just so gorgeous that I'm not surprised that she's featured a lot in many of the posters/DVD/promotional material for TTV.
And, yes, I think you're completely right about her posture here. She's wearing proper women's clothing, but her posture as you note is unconventional and masculine... and by exposing her ankles she's showing that she's not at all a "proper" conventional Victorian lady. It was considered really immodest to reveal your ankles back then. Which, of course is sort of funny when you think about Kitty's character... her boldness and her happiness and comfort in her stage act. Her "masculine" sitting posture here reminds me of the first meeting that Nan and Kitty have in Kitty's dressing room where Kitty sits backwards on the chair with her legs apart. So super sexy, but also so totally unconventional for Victorian times. I'm sure Nan was being very honest early on when she says she'd never seen anything like Kitty. Kitty's boldness in all of this makes her decision to fall back on Walter all the more perplexing in a lot of ways.
So, I have two Kitty related questions at this point.
How early do you think the relationship with Walter started? When Nan first meets Kitty, Walter's already in Kitty's dressing room. Kitty proudly says that she won't "do things to please the manager" in the way that many stage actresses would. But, in the end, by turning to Walter... is that what she ultimately is doing? And, really, how early did this affair begin? It seems clear that they make significant eye contact in the carriage when Nan and Kitty first arrive in London, for example. But, is this really Walter just flirting with Kitty. Or is it really mutual at that point between Kitty and Walter?
And, my other question is... what do you imagine Kitty's upbringing to be like. We know she doesn't want to talk about it with Nan. Because she only wants to talk about "happy things." And, when Nan asks Kitty how she came up with the idea to dress as a boy on stage in the first place... Kitty gives a sort of general answer about it being fun to be bold, etc. But, really, how do we think Kitty got involved in that kind of act to begin with?
Lumière:
Hey A! :)
--- Quote from: atz75 on March 12, 2008, 08:00:08 pm ---
Still, as much as the relationship between Sue and Maud is folded into the wider story of Fingersmith... at the end I'm really ready to focus on how they'll make their relationship work. So, in a way it's frustrating that it ends there so abruptly.
--- End quote ---
Not unlike Brokeback where we were left wondering what happens to Ennis in the end, and were expected to use our imaginations to continue the story, Fingersmith ended sooner than would've been ideal. I would've loved to see them actually make a go of it as well! I wish SW had given us a little bit more to go on at the end (although I am grateful for the happy ending - SW's 2nd book Affinity left me feeling duped and depressed even though I loved it).
I actually found a website with FingerSmith fanfic, no doubt we are not the only ones who would like to continue the tale.
I will respond to your Kitty questions later tonight... (I may need to go back and consult the book as well) ;)
Lumière:
Some Nan & Kitty fanart for ya.... :)
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