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Sarah Waters: Books & Movies Discussion
Lumière:
Hey there Amanda!
Sorry for the late reply -- ;)
--- Quote ---How early do you think the relationship with Walter started? When Nan first meets Kitty, Walter's already in Kitty's dressing room. Kitty proudly says that she won't "do things to please the manager" in the way that many stage actresses would. But, in the end, by turning to Walter... is that what she ultimately is doing? And, really, how early did this affair begin?
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In the movie, we see that Kitty & Walter exchange flirty looks in the carriage while Nan was busy marvelling at the sights and sounds of London. It is hard to say when exactly their “affair” began, especially because we don’t really get to see scenes with Walter and Kitty alone after Nan joins her in London.
In the book, however, I had to go back and hunt this down – we get a better idea of when it started.
When Nan discovers them together after her return from Whitstable, Kitty tells her that she only slept with Walter the night before but that before that, “there was only talk and kisses..” When Nan eventually asks her when the kisses began, she said they started after one particularly stressful performance they’d done at Deacon’s Music Hall (quite possibly months before they broke up) – the audience had been rowdy and aggressive and Walter (upset at the theatre manager for the poor treatment of his artistes) took Kitty home before their last song was done… Nan had to stay back and pack up their bags/costumes etc. That was the night when the kisses began & after which Nan observed that Walter’s visits were fewer than before & that he'd grown increasingly awkward whenever he was around Kitty. Nan unknowingly thought that he was acting that way because he had found out about their relationship and didn’t approve. Little did she know… :)
--- Quote ---And, my other question is... what do you imagine Kitty's upbringing to be like. We know she doesn't want to talk about it with Nan. Because she only wants to talk about "happy things." And, when Nan asks Kitty how she came up with the idea to dress as a boy on stage in the first place... Kitty gives a sort of general answer about it being fun to be bold, etc. But, really, how do we think Kitty got involved in that kind of act to begin with?
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I am not sure whether this subject was covered in the book or not. Do you remember if it was? I searched briefly to no avail. Do you think that her family might’ve dissociated themselves from her because they found out she was a tom? Maybe she was one of those little girls who love to try on their fathers’/brothers’ clothes when no one is watching… Maybe she left home when the rumours of her sexuality came out … maybe she was a carefree child/young woman before that… maybe her family’s reaction pushed her deep into the closet – we know that she was never keen on making her sexuality public.. maybe she eventually cut all ties with her family after she discovered she could support herself by cropping her hair & performing on stage in handsome men's clothes... maybe she was inspired by another performer/act she'd seen in her youth (much like Nan was enthralled by her), hence the idea of performing on stage in the first place... the possibilities are endless.. :)
What do you think her early life might’ve been like?
When I was going through the book again, looking for some of the details mentioned above, I came across a conversation between Nan and Kitty that I found very interesting. Nan and Kitty were in the change-room of a theatre when they met two women – a singer and her dresser, a couple that Nan thought was rather like she and Kitty”. After the singer’s show, she came back to the dressing room and invited Nan & Kitty to a party afterwards. Kitty declined and said that they had a prior engagement with their manager. She had lied. When Nan asked her why she had lied, she said that she ‘didn’t care for them’; to which Nan said:
“ Why not? They were nice. They were funny. They were – like us.”
Kitty stiffened at Nan’s words and grew quite agitated, saying –
“They’re not like us! They’re not like us at all. They’re toms.”
Their conversation after that was mainly – Nan trying to understand why Kitty thinks they are different from those women; Kitty growing grave and uncomfortable by the whole topic…
The day after they met the two women, when they returned to the theatre, Nan observed that Kitty tried to physically distance herself from the women in the change-room..
"Kitty chose a hook that was far from theirs.."
(Did she think that their “tomness” was contagious or something? )
Kitty’s reaction here reminds me of Ennis again. Her denial is deep, her fear is even deeper.
It all boils down to her own homophobia, self-hatred.
It says a lot that she couldn’t admit to her own lover that she was having a lesbian relationship or that she was a tom, even though she had admitted to having prior relationships with other women.
Would love to hear your thoughts on this.. :)
Lumière:
Another great pic..
Lumière:
Calling Amanda to the stage..
Hellooooo...?
*taps fingers on desk...waiting...* :P
Here's another take on the N & K pic I posted earlier..
A visual interpretation of Nan's thoughts Pre- her breakup with Kitty.. :)
(the field of flowers, the ethereal floating image of the two in the skies...
what Nan doesn't see is that it is all fading ... slowly fading away..)
Brown Eyes:
Heya M!
Sorry again for my tardy reply to this thread! The posts here often get so long and complex I usually feel like I need a good long time to sit and work on them. :) Which, is all good of course.
--- Quote from: AuroraLucis on March 17, 2008, 07:51:02 pm ---
When I was going through the book again, looking for some of the details mentioned above, I came across a conversation between Nan and Kitty that I found very interesting. Nan and Kitty were in the change-room of a theatre when they met two women – a singer and her dresser, a couple that Nan thought was rather like she and Kitty”. After the singer’s show, she came back to the dressing room and invited Nan & Kitty to a party afterwards. Kitty declined and said that they had a prior engagement with their manager. She had lied. When Nan asked her why she had lied, she said that she ‘didn’t care for them’; to which Nan said:
“ Why not? They were nice. They were funny. They were – like us.”
Kitty stiffened at Nan’s words and grew quite agitated, saying –
“They’re not like us! They’re not like us at all. They’re toms.”
Their conversation after that was mainly – Nan trying to understand why Kitty thinks they are different from those women; Kitty growing grave and uncomfortable by the whole topic…
The day after they met the two women, when they returned to the theatre, Nan observed that Kitty tried to physically distance herself from the women in the change-room..
"Kitty chose a hook that was far from theirs.."
(Did she think that their “tomness” was contagious or something? )
Kitty’s reaction here reminds me of Ennis again. Her denial is deep, her fear is even deeper.
It all boils down to her own homophobia, self-hatred.
It says a lot that she couldn’t admit to her own lover that she was having a lesbian relationship or that she was a tom, even though she had admitted to having prior relationships with other women.
--- End quote ---
Hunh. This is very, very interesting. I'll admit that I have not yet re-read the book. This is a case that's reminding me that I really, really need to do so! And soon! It's interesting to remember and realize what's been omitted from the mini-series. I've watched the mini-series so many times now that it's most definitely my main frame of reference for the TTV subject. It's nice, at least that the mini-series is complex enough that it alone can be fodder for lots of analysis.
Anyway, this scene you describe about Kitty's reaction to the other couple of women just seems to further emphasize the idea that Kitty is like a female Ennis. This scenario reminds me so much of the "I'm not queer" type of conversation we see between Ennis and Jack. It's so perplexing that Kitty is so liberated and free-wheeling in certain respects and so worried about convention and being perceived as gay at the same time. You'd think she would not like the idea of performing as a "boy" on stage if she was this concerned about people wondering about whether she's a "tom" or not. Clearly, Alice thinks about Kitty as an unusual type of character long before she knows Nan and Kitty are sweethearts. When Nan starts to explain to Alice about how excited she feels about Kitty (and about how she doesn't feel much of anything for Freddy) when Kitty is still performing in the provinces.. Alice says that people like Kitty "aren't like them" and "don't lead natural lives." I think that Kitty may be very naive or consciously deceiving herself if she really thinks that people don't wonder about whether she's gay... given the type of act she performs. Being friendly with two women who are more obviously a gay couple doesn't seem like it would tip the scales much in terms of what public perception of Kitty is anyway. And, it's also interesting throughout the mini-series and the book to recognize how much more open Nan is about her sexuality than Kitty... and how much less worried she seems to be. The toxic-ness of internalized homophobia seems to be a real sub-theme to Kitty's character... just as it's a foregrounded theme for Ennis.
Thinking about Kitty's internalized homophobia in this light, really makes me more and more convinced that marrying Walter is a similar gesture to Ennis marrying Alma. I think it's a "saving face" type of gesture and I think Kitty truly is made desperate by this decision at the end.
About Kitty's childhood and upbringing... well, any theory about that really is speculation on my part. This is especially so since there so little revealed about this in the mini-series (I don't recall any further details from the book... again! I definitely need to re-read).
All I can say, is that when Kitty refuses to talk about her childhood with Nan when she visits Nan at her parents' house, Kitty exudes a wistfulness about Nan's family life. She remarks about how nice and cozy Nan's humble house seems to her and she says that Nan's family seems like a "proper family" and then says that she herself never had a "proper family." This comment always seemed a little ominous to me. It always sounded like Kitty came from a "broken home"... maybe with separated parents and I always hope that this subtle implication doesn't suggest any kind of really dire abuse in Kitty's past. :(
Maybe her estrangement from her family does have something to do with her stage act and possibly her family's knowledge of her sexuality. That's a good suggestion. To me it seems like Kitty's interest in her stage persona has a lot to do with rebelliousness and a sense of freedom and 'boldness' she gets from strutting around on stage and singing about girls. I wonder if her stage act might have evolved out of some real teenage rebellion she might have gone through in her younger years.
I feel tremendously sorry for Kitty. I feel like she had so much opportunity to make a positive lesbian life for herself. And, she had such a confident attitude in the way she carried herself that to see her crumple under the pressures of society/convention and Walter is just so sad.
OK... so on to happier things! What do you imagine Nan and Flo's future to be like?
:) :-*
p.s. This is gorgeous Bud! :D
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Lumière:
My response to your post coming soon, Amanda... :)
but first...
Here is a pic I found recently that I hadn't seen before...
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